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letter to which (Read 15,166 times)
reggie
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letter to which
Oct 19th, 2004 at 10:57am
 
I emailed which a week or so ago suggesting that they take up the cudgels against NGNs I am posting the reply which seems hopeful Here it is:
I'm glad you have contacted us with your comments about non-geographical phone numbers.

We have commented on the use of 0845 and 0870 numbers in the magazine previously, highlighting how some phone companies often charge slightly more for non-geographic local rate and national rate calls than those using an equivalent geographic code, and that many of us are unaware of this.  Phone companies can decide how much to charge for each type of call within certain limits.

The National Telephone Numbering Plan defines a Local Rate as "an indication that the price for the call is equivalent to the rate for a Local call as set by the relevant Originating Communications Provider, where such a rate exists".  A local call is defined as a "call made from one geographic number to another geographic number within a limited geographic range".

You are right to say that the revenue from such calls is sometimes shared between phone providers and the company being called.  0870 numbers are generally revenue generating and 0845 numbers can be.  The ability for the company to create revenue generation from these numbers id determined by the volume of call minutes used on the services.    Your comment that callers are paying the company called as well as the communications carrier is likely to be valid for 0870 numbers and maybe valid for 0845 numbers where revenue for the company may also generated.  However, in the case of 0845 numbers, usually the caller is not paying more that they should if they had made a local call.  In theory and usual practice, local rate calls are the cheapest rate to all customers (other than free) that a company can provide.

When these numbers were first introduced, there were not the large number of alternatives to BT offering cheap calls.  This meant that all customers paid the same for a call, irrespective of where they were dialling from. 

We have several 0845 numbers that we use for connection to our customer service centre, and we do not presently generate revenue from these.  We actively encourage our membership to call us and an 0845 number is a convenient way for us to be accessible to all of our customers without penalising, in terms of telephone charges, those who live at a distance from our offices.  We do, of course, appreciate that some members have special rates with their telephone companies and we are very happy to provide them with a telephone number with a geographical dialling code.  For your reference, this is 01992 822800 and this number is quoted within the magazine and on our website.

The points you raise are clearly very pertinent and I have passed them onto the researcher dealing with this subject, so that they can feed into our ongoing research on this issue.

May I take this opportunity to thank you for your longstanding support of Which?

Regards,

Diane Hacker
Which?

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Heinz
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Re: letter to which
Reply #1 - Oct 19th, 2004 at 12:01pm
 
I see Which? have adopted the DVLA's flawed argument so I've e-mailed them to point that out:
Quote:
In relation to Which?'s own use of 0845 numbers, you state, "..... an 0845 number is a convenient way for us to be accessible to all of our customers without penalising, in terms of telephone charges, those who live at a distance from our offices."

Apparently with Oftel's (Ofcom's?) approval, BT forced most residential customers to migrate to their 'Option 1' package on 1/7/04 and that eliminated the differential between national and local calls and the call charges for same for those (most) customers.

BT now charges 3p/minute to call any UK '01' or '02' (i.e. geographical) number during weekdays and a flat rate 5.5p for up to an hour in the evening and at weekends.  In other words, the cost of a call from Hertford to another Hertford number is EXACTLY THE SAME as the cost of a call from Edinburgh or Cardiff to Hertford.  

There is, therefore, no question of "penalising, in terms of telephone charges, those who live at a distance ......." (as a point of interest, DVLA, a government Agency, now uses just that [flawed] argument for having disconnected it's 01792 xxxxxx geographical numbers and only publishing money-making [7.51+p/minute during the day] 0870 numbers).

The fact that queuing is not allowed on 09xx numbers but is on 08xx numbers means that 08xx numbers associated with convoluted 'press this, press that' and music-on-hold telephone systems are now real money-makers for many companies (try calling Sky on 08702 404040 to experience a minimum of 20 minutes of expensive frustration if you're in any doubt about that).
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« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2004 at 12:03pm by Heinz »  
After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
 
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dorf
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Re: letter to which
Reply #2 - Oct 19th, 2004 at 3:31pm
 
Yes Reggie,

I contacted "Which"/CA about these over 1 year ago. At that time they stated that they were about to look into and report on the abuse of these, which is what prompted me to write to them. I gave them all my findings at that time. Clearly they never did anything more about it, since they have got on the bandwagon themselves using at least 0845 numbers.

I think their reply really demonstrates that so many people just do not understand the full implications of this scam. They still relate everything to BT's rates and think that these call charges are therefore not expensive. What you have to explain to them in simple terms which they can understand is the difference in the cost between an hour long call (including queueing) made at peak time, via BT and via 18866. The hour long call with 18866 of course costs only 1 p. The BT call costs a small fortune by comparison!!
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Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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DaveM
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Re: letter to which
Reply #3 - Oct 19th, 2004 at 3:37pm
 
I don't think that they have taken up anyone's flawed argument.

After personally talking to Diane Hacker at
Which?
, she explained that:-
. They set up the 0845 system when there was a disparity between Local & National rate calls.
. She was unaware of the BT changes made on 1/7/04 making them the same rate. (as indeed are many people)
. They don't make revenue from 0845 use because there isn't the call volume to provide it. (common misconception)
. They provide the Geo number on the website and in the magazine for anyone to see & use. (commendable)
. As there are 5 positions available for calls, and you are calling only one, if it is engaged you have to suffer the inconvenience of waiting (& repeatedly recalling) until it's not ! (unless you call the 0845, where you're automatically routed to the next available)
(
Note: this is my recollection of our conversation so apologies if there are any errors
)

The final comment about
inconvenience
applies to most of the numbers that I have to check out for this site. Sometimes I have to dial many times for days on end to verify a number is correct. That means that often you ringing it will suffer the same problems. You can monitor my progress by looking at the comments I place in the Unverified numbers list
Other Info
column.

Can we be a least a little grateful that some companies/agencies have the best interest of the customer in mind when they initially set up the service, especially when they also provide the Geo number as some of them do. The fact that they are not all as on top of it as we are is not their fault.

What percentage of the UK populous realise that the call prices actually went down on the 1/7/04 ??  Undecided
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Heinz
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Re: letter to which
Reply #4 - Oct 19th, 2004 at 4:39pm
 
Quote:
I don't think that they have taken up anyone's flawed argument.

After personally talking to Diane Hacker at
Which?
, she explained that:-
. They set up the 0845 system when there was a disparity between Local & National rate calls.
. She was unaware of the BT changes made on 1/7/04 making them the same rate. (as indeed are many people)

OK, so they haven't adopted DVLA's flawed argument.

The point is their e-mail reply to reggie still included that  "..... an 0845 number is a convenient way for us to be accessible to all of our customers without penalising, in terms of telephone charges, those who live at a distance from our offices" flawed argument more than 3 months after it became flawed.  For an organisation such as the Consumers' Association not to be aware of the 1/7/04 change is amazing.

I wonder what changes they'll make?
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2004 at 9:20am by Heinz »  
After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
 
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Dave
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Re: letter to which
Reply #5 - Oct 19th, 2004 at 5:30pm
 
I commend Which? for publicising a geographical number, although perhaps they could publicise some others which the 0845 routes to.

I put this point to Ofcom about the advantages of NGNs with regards routing, and asked why we don't have a NGN range which is charged at no more than a normal call, being free when on an 'unlimited' call package.

I've corresponded several times before on the subject of NGNs and all I've got is information on what Ofcom are [supposedly] doing and relevent web links. Now I've received a reply saying they've no more to add on the subject, even though I've made new points!

I also attacked Orange's use of mobile numbers for customer services. No comment, go away was the answer in a nutshell.   Angry
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DaveM
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Re: letter to which
Reply #6 - Oct 19th, 2004 at 11:34pm
 
Quote:
I wonder what changes they'll make?

I doubt that they'll make any because as I already pointed out
Quote:
. They provide the Geo number on the website and in the magazine for anyone to see & use.
so what are you still moaning about !  Angry

Just for
Dave
, try the following numbers taken from the range of 01992 822800 - 899, which would seem to be part of their exchange system.

Phone: 01992 822804, 806, 808, 816, 817, 818, 819, 823, 825, 830, 842, 844, 864, 881, 882.
Faxes were found on 01992 822832, 834, 837, 838, 839.
Other Which? numbers are already listed in our database.

Dont ask me which? departments these are for (sorry !!)    Lips Sealed
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Heinz
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Re: letter to which
Reply #7 - Oct 20th, 2004 at 9:17am
 
Quote:
so what are you still moaning about !
?

N.B. This post was far more verbose but I then realised that a lone punctuation mark would convey its entirety - so it is all that remains.
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2004 at 3:07pm by Heinz »  
After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
 
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omy
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Re: letter to which
Reply #8 - Oct 20th, 2004 at 1:33pm
 
I failed to see your 'moaning' either, Heinz.
But when his 'red-mist' descends DaveM cannot help offending anyone in sight/ on site?.

I would like to see WHICH have an explanatory article, about their number & NGN so that people would know which method would cost them less - and maybe start to question the whole setup, as we do here!
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DaveM
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Re: letter to which ¿
Reply #9 - Oct 20th, 2004 at 8:30pm
 




Roll Eyes
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