i HAVE READ LOT OF THE POST HERE. But view that yourselves have been coming from the wrong angle.
I have carried out a 6 year investigation in to the 0845, 0870 number. The issue is not about consultation as I informed OFCOM 3 years ago but EU Law. OFCOM cannot and does not have system which states or allows 198 providers to state the price of the call before the call commences- it tries to get away with 5p/min from BT line or 10p/min from BT line on only a few traders who try to state the price, however this is not the same as when the call commences (that is a free caller to consumer announcement stating the price of the call).  This does not comply with the law if you have a NTL line or one from 198 other provider. So there can be no clarity. The other fact is that theses numbers 0845 and 0870 numbers are a Premium rate number - not because I say so but the EU Commission says so. ISTICS were not allowed to deal with 0845 and 0870 by OFCOM. ISTICS is told what to deal with by OFCOM. The only solution to stop this shamble is to get rid of 0845, 0870 number - the question has to be asked - why do company’s have to have these numbers? The answer is GREED - one can phone India or China for 0.02p min but pay 10p/min when they have a landline so that you as a consumer make a profit for them (by payback). a 60 min call generates £6.00 x 3 hours £18 x million consumers £18 million x 365 days £600 million approx- this is the scam - aided and abetted by the UK regulator - failing to act even when told that companies fail to state the price of that call before the call commences or misleading consumer when they ask that it is cost of a "local call rate" - all in breach of EU law.

 Firstly _ i asked the EU Commission if these numbers were Premium rate number. The Commission agreed with me. OFCOM have been dealing with in breach of various legislation. As a Premium rate number OFCOM should have treated it as such- instead OFCOM wanted to disguise it as first as a "non-geo" number then "lo-call " number and it used other disguises. The fact is a "spade is a spade" what ever you want to call it. The EC Commission called it a Premium Rate number. Thus the consumer is protected by various EU legislation. The Misleading Advertising Directive which will be replaced by UNFAIR CONSUMER DIRECTIVE – tha the trader must state "the cost of the call before the call commences, and failure to do so or mislead consumer that it is a cost of a normal call when it is not is in breach of the Directive".  Thus all those traders that failed to state the price of the call before and all those traders who breach mislead are in breach of the law.

 1. OFCOM as the regulator failed to deal with traders who breached EU LAW - by failing to state the price of the call before the call commence. The argued it would cost £100 million. I argued that it cost consumers £600 million on 3 hours x 10p min x 60min x 3 hours = £18 x million consumers x 365 day = £600Million approx

2. OFCOM should have place the number as Premium rate number - that’s what it is - the EC Commission agrees.

3. OFCOM has failed to deal with those in breach of EU Law. TESCO have changed all stores to 0845, Abbey, Halifax, Share dealers have all got these number s but no price and no other number.  

Thus each consumer as I did via MEP must take the matter to EU Commissioner and raise the above points and about OFCOM failure. The MEP must ask what the EU Commission and how he will deal with OFCOM and buinessiness in breach of EU law and the Premium Rate numbers and anti Consumer practices eg charging consumers 10p/min without choice and with out telling them the cost of the call BEFORE The call commence, and misleading consumer - that is "cost of a local rate call".  

Together with MEP's, MP  and consumers this practice must stop - but the biggest culprit is OFCOM. OFCOM should be fined and those companies, eg Tesco, Abbey, Halifax etc should be fined for breaching EU Law - but OFCOM has failed to do this or mention this. Next the OFT must be informed of anti consumer practices and breach of EU Law, as must Alistair Darling written to at the DTI  You may write to me at my email address.

Sorry about any spelling mistake as the content is more important  

Bobby
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Thank you for your reply  KK:

The Commission was asked on whether he was aware of 0845 and 0870 and charging a Premium rate such as banks..  - he wrote back "The Commission is aware that Premium nubers are being promoted for calling banks and other services."

Firstly - there is nothing in Law stopping Traders (eg Tesco, Halifax, Abbey etc ) having these Premium rate lines but this does not mean the Consumer is not potected by EU Legislation. The consumer must be informed BEFORE making a call to a premium rate line.  This is what they fail to do.

The Directives are Misleading Advertising Directive (84/450/EEC) which will be replaced by the Unfair Consumer Directive as regards to buiness to consumer which requires price information, banning misleading, or unfair practices. My view forcing consumers to having to telephone a Premium rate number is an Unfair practice - especialy where every company that has a Premium rate line (0845, 0870) has a Land Line and that land line can be routed same as the 0845, 0870 numbers.

UNder the  MA Directive the failure to disclose BEFOREHAND the cost of the Premium Rate calls, or misleading consumbers to beliving that they are normal rate numbers when they not, constitute a misleading practice.

Thus since I and many other Consumers have told OFCOM about this breach why has OFCOM failed to deal with it?  I have written to them and they have failed as of yet to respond to this issues: That Tesco, Abbey, Halifax on their letters do not state the cost of the calls NOR when you make the call.  The greedist  of the greed got more greedy while OFCOM sat eating the pie.  But on the serious side they have failed. I have written to OFCOM since about 2003. all they come back is "consultation". - which they fail to mention what I have put to them, their failures and what action they have taken or will take with those breaching EU Legislation or s1 of Misrep. Act . You have noted they have never dealt with theses issues - while you as the consumber are being ripped off.

You mention Legal Action - do what I have done - I have written letter before court action - where I have been told the "cost is that of a local call", ( I also recorded the call) and on my bill charged 6p or 10p/min. under breach of s1 Misrep Act. I charged £14.00 a letter plus postage.  The offenders have paid up. I have recently written to Tescos (lets wait and see)

Other Directives which may be use full - Distance Selling Directive, Unversal Service Directive which requires Member States to comply with.

The question is:
1      why did OFCOM disguise these premium Rate number 0845, 0870?
2.      Who at OFCOM decided to change from local call rate and national rate some 6 years ago to 6p/min and 10p/min at OFCOM?
3. Why those who want companies to have 0845, and 0870 brag about the fact - how much you can make from incoming calls - thus what did OFCOM, OFT and your local Trading Standards do about it?

My solution is ask OFCOM these question and ask your MEP to ask the Commisssion. This is the simplest way and the cheapest way - ask your MEP to ask the EU COMMISSIONER. Then push this with your local MP and what he proposes to do. Its a free service. Alternative take those others to Court like I do and wack on the charges in breach of MA Directive and s1 Misrepresentation Act.

Hope this helps

Bobby

Hi Geo Man

My point is a very simple one held by the EU Commission - the EU Commission was asked - that was he aware that banks and others were using 0845 and 0870 numbers at charging premium rate. The commissioner agreed.

He then went on to state that the cost of these calls "must be stated before the call begins, "or to mislead the consumer that it is a price of a normal call - when it is not is in breach of the Directive".

It is my view that the Regulator has failed to take action against all - ie banks such as Natwest, Abbey, Halifax, Tesco who on their letter heads only give 0845/0870 numbers, do not state the price, and when telephoning state that they are the "costs of a local call". These are the breaches of EU Legislation.

SO WHAT IS THE WAY FORWARD:
1. Write to The CE  Steven Carter at OFCOM - and dont be put of that he will not write back but a Jackie Caspery prob. will. She tends to says diffrent things in diffrent letters and makes very little sense.
* ask what measures OFCOM have taken against those traders/Businesses that have only 0845 or 0870 on their letter heads and do not state the price of the call or at all.  Please can supply the evidence within 7 days.
·      Secondly why this was not put in the consultation
·      When was OFCOM first informed that businesses  using 0845 or 0870 numbers failed to give price information before the call commenced ?
·      What action did OFCOM take? Provide dates, time and supporting evidence.
·      OFCOM was informed that the EU Commission views the 0845 and 0870 number as Premium rate numbers why has OFCOM not done the same?
·      Why did OFCOM take the 0845/0870 number and turned from local rate to Premium rate ?
·      OFCOM was informed suppliers of 0845 and 0870 lines to businesses promote how much they can make out of the consumer for incoming calls. Please can OFCOM supply evidence with dates, time and who with, what action it took to stop this practice
·      Can OFCOM supply evidence with dates, time and who with, what action it took to stop businesses that failed to tell customers the price of the call beforehand?  If it did not please state why not?
·      OFCOM claimed recently that it would cost businesses £100 m to give information to consumers. If a call cost 10p/min x 6 hours =£36. x million consumers calling x 365 days cost  =  £1.3 billion/year on 6 hours a day.  Is it not clear that OFCOM has  aided businesses to profit out of consumers in an unfair, unjust practice? Please state why this was not mentioned in any consultation
·      Why does business need 0845 and 0870 when OFCOM has clearly shown it cannot manage the pricing, and in 3 years businesses have done away with land line numbers and failed to state the price of the call or mislead customers to the price of these calls (and complaints have risen). Please supply all information relating to this matter and what actions and measure that OFCOM took to stamp out this practice and to stop consumers being ripped of?
·      Please explain why these business need 0845 /0870 in the first place when ALL these businesses had a land line number?  Is it not for that fact that they profiteering at the consumers expense.
·      Does OFCOM agree that there should be a CONSUMER WARNING  and Health Warning when telephoning 0845 and 0870 numbers “call this numbers will not hurt your wallet but be at your expenses while the owner of this line laughs all the way to the bank”.?
In regards to your MEP :  Ask him to get in touch with Liz Lynn’s MEP for Stratford Upon Avon  and with Chris in that office. Also not a question to the EU Commission has to be answered with I think it was 6 weeks.  The pressure the Commission is put under the betters.

You can also write to Sue Cook Director (Consumer)  at the OFT. I have started an investigation there - the more that write the better. Mention that those provide the 0845/0870 promote howmuch they can make out of incoming calls - that is at the consumers expense.
mention that there is no need to have these numbers charging 6p and 10 p /min
and that on 6 hours a day a million consumers calling is costing £1.3 billion approx and this matter should be referred to the EU Commissioner.
Also the failure of OFCOM - first to call 0845/0870 numbers Premium, numbers, 2. to take action against those operating these lines to not comply with EU Law. 3 The anti-consumer, unfair, restrictive practice forcing UK consumers to pay 6p and 10 p min.  4 That in 3 years OFCOM have demonstrated that they can not regulate nor give the price to these lines before the call commence. That there 198 Telecom providers and they are charged different the BT. for example mobiles 35p min.  Thus it is no good giving 10p /min from BT line if your call is NOT from a BT  line.

My Last point which I have already made - is that there is no need for these greedy business to have 0845/0870 numbers in the first place. For example Tesco changed all their land lines to 0845 so you as the consumber can generate them money -  

The more that write to MEP, MP, OFT the better.  It might be worth looking at the Regulator failed in its duty to regulate and asking the MEP and MP to look into this and supporting an anti-consumer practice.

Bobby

Ofcom, throughout its consultations talks about value-added services. That is that the caller is paying for a service. On the subject of 0844 and 0871 numbers, which are charged at a hotchpotch of different rates, it thinks that these different rates will allow price competition. Of course, this cannot be the case when [accurate] pricing information consists of long lists of number prefixes.

I think that emphasis needs to be put on this when putting the issues of these phone numbers to the EU and our MEPs.

Bobbyboy wrote on Sep 14^th, 2006 at 5:20pm:

It's difficult to get an idea of how much companies actually benefit because they never want to enter into such discussions. Whether they are paid directly or not is irrelevant; they are getting services paid for by the caller. Hence, they are saving as they don't pay for the NTS.

Quote:

You must not have read Ofcom's many consultations then. I'm sure you know that you haven't missed anything. I cannot see any 'value-added' part of the services you mention; it's more a case of telephoning the company concerned, and it is reasonable to expect that it should cost the price of a telephone call to UK landline (as that is where the call terminates).

Quote:

Ofcom conducted some research and came to the conclusion that queue times aren't longer on 0870 numbers than freephone ones. This was published along with one of its many consultations.

Quote:

Chris has an interest in this issue then?

Quote:

But with the way in which telcos can set their prices, there is no way that service providers can give accurate information.

Hi Dave

I had OFCOM's report - i was being sarcastic  in regards to "value added service" that OFCOM claims.  Please enlighten me to what they are? Having read other emails the members here have noted no difference.

Just as a matter of interest did OFCOM supply you the terms of referance - when they looked at the length of the calls and value added service? What did they claim was the value added service?

I am not sure what you asking re Chris - Chris is a Contact at a MEP office. He deals with the work with at Liz Lynns Office. Questions are put forward via MEPs to Eu Commissioners and to MPs and policy report. If you wanted some information it is a name for you to ask and share information so he can pass to your MEP.

I think the question you asked "It's difficult to get an idea of how much companies actually benefit because they never want to enter into such discussions. Whether they are paid directly or not is irrelevant; they are getting services paid for by the caller."

The Businesses gets paid By a "Payback". - but this irrelevent in law. It is the Businesses with the line that must state the price of the call. I refer you to my earlier reply.


Re your last point:  This is my point the 0845 and 0870 is a mess and shamble because OFCOM cannot manage the pricing on them. The Misleading Advertising Directive and Consumer Directive require price information to be give to consumers. One needs to grasp this point;  The failure to disclose beforehand the cost of a premium rate call or mislead consumers to believing that they are cost of a normal call is in breach of the Directive.

Thus it is not my problem that OFCOM or telecom providers cannot do so, but as a consumer and what business are required in law to do which is important.  OFCOM in 3 years have not managed to sort out the 0845 and 0870 scam thus must get rid of it.  

They must have free call pre-announcement on all Premium Rate calls and 0845 and 0870 fall under them.

Bobby

Hi Dave

thanks for the links which are very helpful.

I was saying that if every one can go to their MEP and raise a question on the issues that i have mentioned in my previous replies. Then we can get the MEPs in diffrent parts of the country to take the issues up with the EU Commissioner.

It would be good and productive if you did contact your MEP as I found that most MEPs did not know about the problem Eu Legislation and OFCOM.

Bobby

Hi BBK

The issue in all this is we can talk till the cows come home but OFCOM have demonstrated they will do everything to uphold 0845 and 0870 numbers and charging at Premium rate while business do away with with landlines. Just bear in mind OFCOM has all the time in the world. Dont also forget that OFCOM came into in 2003 while the Misleading Advertising Directive was in 1988.

The question is what do yourselves want to do about it?

You cannot stop businesses from having 0845 and 0870 numbers - but as a consumer you can make them comply with law and hold OFCOM accountable for its failing for 3 years of failing.

The consumer can also make sure by Business having to have a free "pre-announment" of the cost of the call that the Consumer (from my own investigation) are angered about it, espically where Land lines are been done away,  so that you as the consumer profit the businesses at your cost and by unfair practice.

The qusetion is Business do not need 0845, 0870 as all calls can be Diverted anywhere. In fact it is cheaper - .03p/min to phone India instead of 0870 at 10p/min - So when Business divert to India a 60 min call cost £6.00. £1.00 is a wage in India - £5.00 profit for the Businesses and the JOb in UK is got rid off.

Thus it does mean going to your MEP, OFT and Trading Standards:

"In regards to Trading Standards - I would put to them about their failure to act in regards to anti-consumer law and unfair consumer practice.  Ask what they have or what action they have taken to buineses who faile to :
1. Advertise the Price of the call beforehand in accordance with the Misleading Advertising Directive and Unfair Consumer Directive.
2.  what action was taken against buinesses that gave misleading price information which is in breach of s1 Mis rep Act and MA Directive
3. whether they have referred the matter to Sue Cook at OFT
4. if they have not done so why not? "[/i]

Bobby