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Ofcom 070 review (Read 47,944 times)
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Ofcom 070 review
Jan 3rd, 2009 at 12:18am
 
I'd not even heard of this one, and couldn't find a reference to it on here on a quick search, but I've just had the following in an email from Flextel (a major supplier of 070 numbers). Obviously they wish to push their point of view, but if anybody has any definite opinions on the future of 070, either for or against, then time is running out to get your views in.
Quote:
Happy New Year to all our readers!

The team at FleXtel hope you had a restful holiday and that you found our service useful in handling calls efficiently, whilst your staff took a break. As usual any feedback is welcome, good or bad.

Now to the point of this email...
Next Wednesday, 7th January 2009 at 5pm, Ofcom's 070 consultation closes. This is your LAST CHANCE to help justify the powerful 070 service.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/070options/

It's easy to respond...
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/070options/howtorespond/

Why not simply fill-out Ofcom's online form? Here...
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/070options/howtorespond/form

Thanks to your help, Ofcom already seems to better understand the merits of 070. We're very encouraged with the quality and detail provided in this latest consultation, as mentioned in our Newsletter of October... http://www.flextel.co.uk/press/news.html

BUT CONFUSION IS APPEARING
==========================
Last week Ofcom's enforcement arm PPP, seems to have jumped the gun...
http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/news/articles/nr_20081219.asp

FleXtel understands that "Due diligence for 070" is only a proposal at this time (see question 5 in Ofcom's consultation), so I have written to Ofcom seeking clarification and explaining why FleXtel believes this will be challenging, especially for those customers based outside the UK.
I understand that "Due diligence" means that FleXtel will be required to ask some customers for identification information e.g. passport, birth certificate, company registration documentation, driving licence and/or utility bills. Unlike premium rate users (to which due diligence rules normally apply), many 070 users reside abroad. It may be particularly difficult to transfer authenticated (legally notarised) documentation worldwide.

So it's really important you take a few minutes and tell Ofcom why you need 070 and answer their refreshingly simple questions.

FLEXTEL'S RESPONSE
==================
You may be interested to note how FleXtel is responding to these questions.
Our answers to Ofcom's consultation are broadly:
Q1 - Yes.
Q2 - Yes.
Q3 - Yes.
Q4 - Yes.
Q5 - Perhaps, but only where necessary, objectively justifiable and consistent with the need to avoid artificial barriers to EU and international trade.
Q6 - Yes. CLI is an important facility in normal use. If is is barred on 070 then it follows that it also should be barred from many other services. There are better, more generic, ways to deal with such scams e.g. the introduction of Call Price Labelling, so that callers can immediately check the call price and decide whether to pay for a return call.
Q7 - Yes. Patientline and similar services are clearly premium rate use, i.e. where the revenue is used to pay for equipment provision, not call forwarding. They should use 09x numbers.
Q8 - Yes. This concept was always fatally flawed, dangerous and not in line with EU and ITU regulations and recommendations. Ofcom had been warned about this several times, by industry experts, since 2004, but carried on regardless, in what appeared to be a reckless manner.
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #1 - Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:31am
 
Whilst previous experience tells me that responses to all Ofcom consultations by members  of the general public are only met with their absolutely predictable utter disregard, disdain and contempt and this re-consultation in order to disregard their own original original proposals on 070 numbers actively proves that fact in this case like a moth to the flame I was drawn in and could not let this one pass.  I consequently submitted the following response:-

Quote:
What do you want Ofcom to keep confidential?:

Keep nothing confidential

If you want part of your response kept confidential, which parts?:

No part of my submission is in any way confidential but nor should any part of it be withheld, edited, amended, redacted, altered or otherwise tampered with by members of Ofcom’s legal staff without my prior permission, consultation and agreement. If such redaction is undertaken by Ofcom without my permission I will approach my Member of Parliament about the matter and have it referred for investigation to the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman

I note that sections of my response to a previous Ofcom consultation were redacted and removed by members of Ofcom's staff without my permission and also without any prior explanation, notification or discussion of that decision. This all too clearly indicates the near total contempt in which Ofcom's board seems to hold the views of any ordinary members of the public who attempt to impede its secret pre-agreements with sections of the telecoms industry that it then dresses up retrospectively in sham consultations to overturn recommendations that it (Ofcom) had made in previous consultations on precisely the same subject. This appears to be because the telecoms industry have told Ofcom abolishing covert PRS numbers will slightly diminish its enormous profits from hidden premium rate NTS services and that it is prepared to go to court to defend this.

Ofcom may publish a response summary:

No

I confirm that I have read the declaration:

Yes

Ofcom should only publish this response after the consultation has ended:


You may publish my response on receipt

Question 1: Do you agree with our analysis of consumer detriment on the 070 number range?:

No I do not agree with any part of your analysis where you have completely ignored the fact that the use of the prefix 070 by Personal Number misusers occurs purely so that the caller will be confused in to thinking that the number is a mobile phone number charged at mobile phone rates.

This will be of the greatest possible detriment of all to users of mobile phones as large numbers of mobile phone users have contracts that give them a set number of bundled minutes per month to all UK fixed lines and to all normal UK mobile phone numbers. Callers will explicitly call back or call 070 numbers believing they are part of their mobile phone bundled minutes and will suffer huge detriment as a results when they end up with a £5 or £10 charge on their bill for what they thought was a free call.

070 numbers are Premium Rate Numbers on any normal price definition. The only reason that complacent and lethargic Ofcom is now trying to renege on the commitments it firmly previously gave to stop this abuse three years ago is because having allowed the scam to persist for this long it now fears that the scammers who run these numbers will go to the Competition Appeals Tribunal.

These numbers are deliberately and systematically abused and have never been used for the stated purpose. For instance they are used for hospital phone numbers for hospital patients that the patient does not own and cannot take elsewhere. They were also used as the main normal contact number by the company (RETAINACAR) that security etched my current car windows.

The complete and utter abuse of any normal misleading price indications requirements under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 implicit in allowing 070 to continue is utterly appalling yet Ofcom fears a reference to the Competition Appeals Tribunal far more than it apparently fears an investigation of its clandestine yet systematic non protection of the best interests of UK citizens and uk consumers in relation to phone call costs by the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission.

I believe that Ofcom now appears content to exist only as a bureaucratic rubber stamp for legalised continued theft from UK citizen consumers by charging them premium rates for calls that they did not understand were premium rate before they made them.

Ofcom's record here is an utter disgrace but of course as they do not accept the right of the public to criticise their actions and rely instead on old fashioned Stalinist bureaucracy to push through their plans they can no doubt be expected to Redact (or in layman's speak censor) this section of my Response.


Continued/...........
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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:45am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #2 - Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:36am
 
Quote:
Question 2: Do you agree that the costs outweigh the benefits in relation to closing the 070 number range and migrating users to an alternative range?:

No I do not agree.

The cost to the citizen consumer of scams like Patientline's various successors being allowed to remain in business greatly outweigh any possible detriment in the business running them being forced to bear the full costs of using an 09 premium rate service charge at premium rate calling rates and having nothing at all to do with the 07 mobile phone code prefix.

But what can we expect from woolly minded Ofcom who still allows Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man to have mobile phone number prefixes in the 07 number range, even though they are not part of the United Kingdom and calls to these numbers are not part of bundled UK mobile phone minutes or calling plans. Ofcom seems to suffer from a form of complete moral autism when it comes to the allocation of UK phone numbers and its only concern seems to be that telecoms scammers should not be forced to give up any form of hidden revenue stream they have become used to due to Ofcom's and Oftel's previous complacency and lethargy.

All of Ofcom's previous pledges to end these scams and abuse and make phone numbering transparent (most notably of all by its former Director of Communications, Matt Peacock in an interview with BBC Radio 4's You and Yours program) have proved utterly worthless and instead Ofcom has persistently ignored its principal duty to protect citizen consumers in favours of the interests of the telcos, who it continues to meet with in smoke filled rooms at various clandestine industry group meetings not open to input from telecoms consumers, such as the NTS Focus Group.

All of Ofcom's consultations are totally dishonest as when Ofcom gets an overall response to a consultation it does not like it either makes a firm promise of action (as with 0870) only to retract its promised regulations at the last minute two years later or otherwise it just puts the consultation on ice (as with 070) only to come out with another consultation proposing precisely the opposite of what it originally proposed three years earlier. Ofcom is as an utterly morally bankrupt organisation that sides only with the telecoms industry and ignores all valid attempts by consumer groups to engage with it. It has absolutely no forums whatsoever for engaging with consumers other than its so called Consumer Panel to which it only even gives interviews to existing paid up card carrying members of the telecoms and broadcasting industry establishment.

Question 3: Do you agree that Ofcom should keep the 070 range open and monitor the market in light of enforcement action by PhonepayPlus?:

No I believe that the 070 number range should be forcibly migrated immediately and without further notice on to a section of the 09 number range with all similar requirements to 09 numbers regarding call price announcements etc being immediately required to be applied to those former.070 numbers

Question 4: Do you agree that Ofcom should require OCPs to give greater prominence to the cost of calling 070 numbers in published price lists and promotional material?:


I believe there should be voice based pre announcements of the call rate and that the caller should be offered a free of charge voice based computerised call back at the end of the call or a free text back to tell them what the cost of the call has been.

It is imperative in particular that no user of a uk mobile phone should call an 070 number believing these calls will be charged out of their bundled mobile phone inclusive minutes only to find this is not the case. Equally pay as you go mobile phone users and landline phone users should not dial 070 only to find the call costing vastly more than a call to a normal UK mobile phone number,

The Pay As You Go mobile phone operators such as Vodafone should be forced to offer either free of charge itemised billing and/or free call back with the call charge of a call and/or a pre-call announcement of the cost per minute of a call for every call a customer may make if they wish to enable this facility. The fact that Vodafone makes it near impossible to find out the rate of calling an 070 number or the fact that it is different from a mobile call before a call is made and that it does not offer Pay As You Go customers itemised billing as standard is truly shocking and a complete indictment on the calamitous regime of regulatory non control of this sector that has prevailed under Ofcom's stewardship and also under that of OFTEL before it.


Continued/.............
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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:42am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #3 - Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:40am
 
Quote:
Question 5: Do you agree that Ofcom should amend its guidance to ensure that PNS providers carry out appropriate due diligence of sub-allocatees of personal numbers?:

No I just believe the whole damned lot should be renumbered to start 09 immediately and shown as such on all phone bills. I also believe it should be made illegal for pay as you go mobile phone operators not to offer free of charge itemised online billing for any customer who wants it as well as paper based itemised billing at a suitable fee that covers only printing and posting costs to any customer who wants it.

If you go to the supermarket you know what something will cost before you arrive at the checkout so why has Ofcom totally failed to ensure this principal applies when buying telephony services. Surely it is actually the law as defined by Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 (misleading price indications).

Question 6: Do you agree that Ofcom should not bar the presentation of 070 CLI? Please provide evidence to support your response:

No I believe Ofcom should bar the presentation of 070 CLIs as the sole purpose of their presentation is to allow the perpetuation of these numerous scam abuses of the numbers that rely on the public being conned in to thinking they are calling an ordinary mobile phone number.

Ofcom knows this is the case but is now back tracking on its earlier promises because after meetings behind closed doors with people who are no doubt former business colleagues of at least some Ofcom employees it has no doubt decided that taking the right action in favour of the citizen consumer will cost these telecoms companies too much money.

Question 7: Should services provided by, for example, Hospedia, Premier Telesolutions and Trader Media be provided on an alternative number range to 070? Please provide any evidence to support your views.:


All services currently provided on 070 numbers should be moved to 09 forthwith without exception.

Ofcom knows perfectly well the only use of 070 numbers is to massively scam the general public but it is once again siding with the telecoms industry because it thinks they have access to bigger and better paid lawyers than UK citizen consumers do.

When Ofcom talks of the level of consumer detriment what it is actually saying is that this is a jolly profitable wease that various cowboys in the telecoms industry have got used to and will now go to court to try and defend.

As Ofcom seems to consider its actual principal remit to be the comfortable profitability of most of the telecoms industry it does not seem wish to go to court in order to fulfil its principal remit to ensure competitive markets for uk citizens and uk consumers (but not for telecoms operators) under Section 3(i) of the Communications Act 2003

Question 8: Do you agree that Ofcom should withdraw formally the requirement for pre-call announcements on 070 Personal Numbers?:

No I believe that compulsory pre-call announcements on all 070 numbers should be enforced if they are allowed to continue and any personal alarm devices or other devices that rely on the use of 070 numbers for their revenue stream should be forced to discontinue the use of those numbers and instead charge their customers a subscription or an itemised monthly bill for the value of the telecoms and goods and services they are currently receiving in phone charges.


Continued/..........
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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:43am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #4 - Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:41am
 
Quote:
Additional comments:

Ofcom originally proposed a clear cut solution that was its own suggestion to move 070 numbers to the 06 code prefix in its review "Safeguarding The Future of Numbers" so that all of the abuses associated with consumers mistaking 070 premium rate numbers for mobile phone numbers and thinking they would be included in mobile phone bundled minutes would be brought to an end.

Now some two to three years later Ofcom spinelessly caves in over the implementation of its earlier proposals and now claims that 070 numbers don't really do too much harm old chap and that consumers don't mind regularly having to pay several quid extra on their phone bills for calls that they thought were to normal mobile phone numbers.

All of the companies who operate on 070 use some of the most dubious and deceitful selling methods to obtain their customers ever known in almost any industry and it is utterly shocking that a so called regulator should be prepared to sanction and endorse this continued abuse of UK citizen consumers.

Ofcom tells us it will all be alright because it will ensure greater price transparency for the cost of 070 calls on phone bills but what confidence can we have in the word of or the competence or professionalism of a regulator who went back on its word that it would make 0870 call costs the same as call costs to 01/02 numbers and that still allows the vast majority of fixed line uk call carriers to issue bills to their customers that show 0845 and 0870 calls are "Lo-Call" and "National Rate" calls, even though both the ASA and Trading Standards have prevented the continuation of this activity in paid advertising. However unfortunately phone bills are not considered advertising but are subject only to Ofcom's own General Conditions regarding phone bills and call charges. Conditions which it, Ofcom, is so spectacularly lackadaisical in ever managing to enforce in the best interests of the UK citizen consumer.

While the saynoto0870 campaign of which I am member has more supporters than ever sadly very few of them will bother to respond to this consultation as after thousands of campaigners responded to previous Ofcom and ICSTIS/PhonePayPlus consultations on 0845, 0870 and 0871 numbers and were then resoundingly ignored in favour of the telecoms industry most UK citizen consumers have rightly come to realise that Ofcom is a body they cannot trust in any shape or form.


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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #5 - Jan 9th, 2009 at 2:37pm
 
To: NGMsGhost,  

Well said and an entertaining and informative read, as your submissions usually are.   You have my support and I would be interested in any response or feedback you may get from Ofcom.    I regret that I didn't make a submission myself though I know very little about 070 numbers other than they are very expensive to call and can be easily mistaken for mobile numbers.   I could not have added anything to or improved on anything you say.    I only wonder if you have been too gentle and understanding with Ofcom ?Smiley Wink
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #6 - Jan 11th, 2009 at 4:31pm
 
loddon wrote on Jan 9th, 2009 at 2:37pm:
Well said and an entertaining and informative read, as your submissions usually are.


Thanks loddon.  I wonder if I should make my submissions any less "entertaining" in order to be taken seriously by Ofcom.  But then again Ofcom never ever takes the views of members of the general public seriously anyway so why bother making them less "entertaining".

Quote:
You have my support and I would be interested in any response or feedback you may get from Ofcom.


I will naturally not get any response or feedback from Ofcom.  Ofcom does not engage with the public.  It only engages at various official forums with representatives of the telecoms industry. Shocked Angry Cry

Quote:
I regret that I didn't make a submission myself though I know very little about 070 numbers other than they are very expensive to call and can be easily mistaken for mobile numbers.   I could not have added anything to or improved on anything you say.


There is little to know about them other than that they are another form of premium rate number where the caller pays vast additional amounts to call the number for benefits that only then accrue to the called party and/or their telecoms supplier.

They are principally known for their misuse by the hospital bedside telephone operator Patientline in NHS Hospitals and otherwise are mainly used by people who want to divert calls to an overseas mobile phone without having to pay anything themselves for the additional costs of the overseas mobile phone call element.  There is a series of 070 number that cost about 40p per minute that will divert to mobile phones registered to numbers based in other EU countries but of course to most unsuspecting callers the 070 PNS number looks just like a UK mobile phone number.  070 calls are never included in bundled mobile phone inclusive minute calling plans.

So 070 numbers are similar in principal to 084/7 numbers but worse in practice because the level of call charges is far higher than with 084/7 numbers.

Patientline and other hospital operators deliberately adopted them so that they could charge 50p per minute without many callers realising this was the cost (wrongly thinking it was a mobile) and without being subject to any normal 09 premium rate call price disclosure requirements.  A further refinement of the scam by Patientline was for you to have to speak to one of their operators in a call centre for three or four minutes at 50p per minute before even being connected to the patient.

The only claimed justification of 070 numbers by OFTEL/Ofcom was that they always reached the caller wherever they were but even this was a lie with Patientline as the numbers belonged to Patientline and not to the patient..............

The main thing to know is they are yet another area where Ofcom has promised to end the scams and abuses only to then collude with the telecoms industry behind the public's back to allow all of the abuses to continue completely unfettered as before.... Shocked Angry Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2009 at 6:40pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #7 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 2:17am
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 4:36am:
Quote:
[b]
But what can we expect from woolly minded Ofcom who still allows Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man to have mobile phone number prefixes in the 07 number range, even though they are not part of the United Kingdom and calls to these numbers are not part of bundled UK mobile phone minutes or calling plans.  



I don't see the point of trying to confuse them with irrelevant other sniping comments, particularly on this subject, especially when you seem slightly confused yourself about some details.

2 main networks and some mvno providers include such calls in their contract bundles or at the same pay as you go rates as UK mobiles.

Ofcom don't mandate networks which calls they may or may not include. Instead you might lobby your own network to include the calls, rather than trying to wind up Ofcom into changing the numbers of such phones, to the probable paradoxical effect that they then would be excluded by all main UK networks, and cause needless disruption for the customers of the networks on the islands.

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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #8 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 3:25am
 
andy9 wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 2:17am:
I don't see the point of trying to confuse them with irrelevant other sniping comments, particularly on this subject, especially when you seem slightly confused yourself about some details.

2 main networks and some mvno providers include such calls in their contract bundles or at the same pay as you go rates as UK mobiles.

Ofcom don't mandate networks which calls they may or may not include. Instead you might lobby your own network to include the calls, rather than trying to wind up Ofcom into changing the numbers of such phones, to the probable paradoxical effect that they then would be excluded by all main UK networks, and cause needless disruption for the customers of the networks on the islands.


These territories don't pay UK taxes and they have their own internet domains and their own car registration number system.  So why therefore should they have a UK country dialling code?

Also what concerns do you have about any UK callers to any mobile number in these territories that you may yourself use who are not dialling from one of the two UK networks you mention and so who may think they are calling out of bundled minutes only to discover they have been charged at international rates?

I find it odd that you should also have to resort to one of Ofcom's most weasle worded reason for not taking regulatory action to perpetuate the continuation of the current anomalous situation.
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #9 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 10:55am
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 3:25am:
These territories don't pay UK taxes and they have their own internet domains and their own car registration number system.  So why therefore should they have a UK country dialling code?

Also what concerns do you have about any UK callers to any mobile number in these territories that you may yourself use who are not dialling from one of the two UK networks you mention and so who may think they are calling out of bundled minutes only to discover they have been charged at international rates?

I find it odd that you should also have to resort to one of Ofcom's most weasle worded reason for not taking regulatory action to perpetuate the continuation of the current anomalous situation.


Your argument is more than a little perverse - now you seem to want these numbers (and also the landlines there of course) excluded on the spurious grounds of taxation reasons not telecoms; part of the time (earlier) you're whingeing that the calls should be included in UK network inclusive minutes.

If you were able to achieve that they were numbered as a different territory, then they would certainly not be inclusive. I for one, and I'm sure thousands of others, would strongly canvass against your destructive impulses on this subject. I suspect the regulators in Guernsey Jersey and the Isle of Man would have something to say on the matter as well. You can read their current policy, and info about allocations and coordination with Ofcom, in the relevant places.

Ofcom cannot regulate which numbers the mobile networks count as mobile networks in their inclusive minutes. The original idea of contracts with inclusive minutes to other networks was invented by the networks themselves not by Ofcom.

As I've said before, lobby your own network to include the calls. There are certainly inconsistencies in their charges to these: 3 and Vodafone well over their tariffs for the rest of Europe

As for my personal behaviour in regard to these numbers - you moralistically allude to whether I should be concerned - people don't call me on one of those numbers and get an unpleasant surprise; they call me on my ordinary contract number which was forwarded. I would imagine that other users do similar or forward via a landline as well.
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #10 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 12:50pm
 
andy9,

I decline to continue the debate since whatever I say you are bound to take exception to it.

I note that you seem to be alone in this regard and that no other forum member seems to have taken exception to my response to Ofcom regarding 070 numbers.

I do of course thank you for at least taking the time and trouble to carefully read through all of my submission. Wink Roll Eyes
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #11 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 2:50pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 12:50pm:
andy9,

I decline to continue the debate since whatever I say you are bound to take exception to it.

I note that you seem to be alone in this regard and that no other forum member seems to have taken exception to my response to Ofcom regarding 070 numbers.

I do of course thank you for at least taking the time and trouble to carefully read through all of my submission. Wink Roll Eyes


Not all of your submission is about 070 numbers, and not all of it is actually correct.

If you could improve both of these aspects, it might make it a lot shorter and easier to read. Perhaps an improvement in diplomatic tone might also make it easier for some of these mandarins to empathise with.

I doubt that many people agree with the rather odd ambivalence of your stance about calls to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #12 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 9:12pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 3:25am:
These territories don't pay UK taxes and they have their own internet domains and their own car registration number system.  So why therefore should they have a UK country dialling code?

They share the UK's country code because that's the way it was done. I don't know why that is. In an ideal world, perhaps they should have their own ones. Are we to assume that you would like Jersey, Guernsey and IoM to change to their own country codes?

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 3:25am:
Also what concerns do you have about any UK callers to any mobile number in these territories that you may yourself use who are not dialling from one of the two UK networks you mention and so who may think they are calling out of bundled minutes only to discover they have been charged at international rates?

The issue of some 07 mobile numbers being outside of inclusive bundles does not just affect the three islands. I expect that other 075/077/078/079 numbers which are not allocated to the main networks (O2, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Orange and 3) will also be outside of inclusive minutes. It's strange that you don't mention these.
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #13 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 10:31pm
 

At least we're not yet in the mess that Gibraltar was in until recently with regard to their number space originally being within Spain ...
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Re: Ofcom 070 review
Reply #14 - Jan 20th, 2009 at 1:22pm
 
Dave wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 9:12pm:
They share the UK's country code because that's the way it was done.


That's surely a bit like Tiscali, TalkTalk or Vodafone saying they charge the prices they currently do for 084/7 calls just because they can do and always have done.  But that surely doesn't make it right or ethical does it. Wink Roll Eyes

Quote:
I don't know why that is. In an ideal world, perhaps they should have their own ones. Are we to assume that you would like Jersey, Guernsey and IoM to change to their own country codes?


Either they should be deemed to be fully part of the UK for all call charging purposes, in which case they can retain their +44 code and current number allocations, or they should be deemed to be fully outside it and have their own country code so no one is misled.  Citizens of Glibraltar and the Falkland Islands have the right of abode in the UK if they so wish (like those of the Channel Islands and Isle of Man) but they still have their own telephone country codes.

The current situation is anomalous and deliberately misleading.

Quote:
The issue of some 07 mobile numbers being outside of inclusive bundles does not just affect the three islands. I expect that other 075/077/078/079 numbers which are not allocated to the main networks (O2, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Orange and 3) will also be outside of inclusive minutes. It's strange that you don't mention these.


I was not aware there were other UK based mobile operators who were not included in bundled cross network minutes packages.  Can you reveal who those operators are Dave?
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