Maybe, it would be a good idea to boycott all companies and organisations who use the 0870 numbers to rip us off.
I think they'd get the message.  Oftel hasn't helped in the two years since I pointed out the phone scam to them.
Cheers John

I thoroughly agree with your sentiments, however if everyone who uses this website to help each other and obtain the geographic number of a  particular number, and let everyone know, then we ( the telephone subscribers ) can play the respective companies at their game!!  In my opinion, OFTEL / OFCOM or whatever should have NEVER allowed all of these 0845 / 0870 / 0898 / 0906 etc numbers to spring and force everyone who telephones these, so the  respective companies can take their cut of the cost of the call from us - it's a bloomin rip off!!!

James Bond

i'm a newboy, so this may have come up before, but 07*** non-mobile numbers are even more of a rip-off than 0870 numbers, and Ofcom should add this to their 'things to do list'!

Boycotting is the ideal solution, but the main trouble seems to be that most folk (ie those not familiar with this site!) do not understand the rip-off, and think that because the company says "National  Charge Rates apply" that they are getting a normal cost call, whereas we know that it is about 16 times more expensive than a 'normal' geographic number using a carrier!!  
However, apart from sites like this ( and there are still only a comparatively small number of people read them) the scam will not get "media coverage" simply because, if you notice, nearly all newspapers/magazines/TV programs are all USING 0870 numbers - and do turkeys vote for Christmas??
So how do we widely promote the message?

You are up to very up date.

Didn't  Oftel ceased to exist after 28 December 2003!!!!  

Chris.

What are you saying, here, and to whom??  Found it difficult to follow your point.

The problem is it's just not practical to boycott all these companies - for example as a civil service pensioner I have no choice but to deal with Capita Hartshead on queries (they are now on this site, so I have a geographic alternative - thanks to whoever put it there).

And I can't really boycott the Tax Office - many of which now use 0845 numbers).

Still, I refuse to call (these numbers) if there is any real alternative (e-mail, post, personal visit)

If only a complete boycott was possible....
This morning I phoned Comet on the geog number in the list (Fareham) and was told I needed to phone a brach to check at item was in store.  So I would have to dial "0870..... ".  After a short, friendly debate about 0870 being a covert premium number he simply gave me the local number.  One more for the list - and hopefully made someone else aware of the campaign.
 8)

One suggestion is that if you cannot find an alternative number on this site you can write, e-mail or Fax to them instead. This does admittedly take longer to get a response, but if lots of people do this it actually costs the company more to deal with than a simple telephone call to a Geographic number would and so makes the point in a very effective way.

You can also mention in your communication that the only reason you are doing this by other means is because they are not offering a normal Geographic number for communication with them, and you have a policy not to call Premium numbers or disguised Premium numbers. You can even state that you have barred all Premium numbers and disguised Premium numbers from your telephone, which is true if you have a "mental bar" on calling them - like me!

my bank - Abbey refused to give me an alterantive number - but I did find it here -

I did email them and complained that when I called their 0845 number it was putting through to another bank.

well the issed me with the 0161 numner asap and sent me £20 compensation.

I know try to email 3 firms a day saying I was getting another business when I called their 0870 number.

Im sure they then get intouch with the provider and asking why they have problems

worth a try!


G

Another way is to use 'call back'. Where companies who use 084/087 NGNs have the option on their website, get your own 0870/0871 and enter it in. So they pay you to get a quote from them etc!

Ofcourse, sign up for marketing calls and so on with it.

wrote on Jun 26^th, 2004 at 4:07pm:

the scam will not get "media coverage

From the Sunday Times today:
January 23, 2005
How to beat banks’ 0845 phone rip-off
BANKS and utility companies are raking in millions of pounds a year by forcing customers to pay more than expected for using 0845 and 0870 numbers. But The Sunday Times can disclose a simple ploy to get round these rip-offs.
Ofcom, the telecoms regulator, has been inundated with complaints from consumers who believe the companies using these numbers are unnecessarily prolonging calls. It has launched an investigation into the lines as a result.
Ofcom said: “Consumers have become concerned that the revenues that businesses such as call centres may be able to obtain for receiving inbound calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers may provide an incentive for some companies to prolong calls. We are looking at ways to address these concerns.”
Consumers spend more than a £1 billion a year calling 0845 and 0870 numbers. However, there are ways to avoid using these numbers to contact banks.
The codes do not work from overseas, so companies have to give travelling customers a different, local-code number. But these numbers also work from within Britain. Just remove the +44 UK code and add a zero. Barclays customer services, for example, can be reached on 02476 842100.
For local-code numbers for other companies, visit Saynoto0870.com which lists alternative numbers for many well-known firms.
Telecoms companies generally charge between 1p and 5p a minute for 0845 calls, while 0870 numbers can cost 10p a minute. But charges can be even higher from a mobile phone. A peak-time call to an 0845 number on the Orange Everyday 50 tariff costs 12p a minute. The same call to an 0870 number costs 35p a minute.
These so-called “special service” numbers are used by many organisations, including cinemas, hotels and even government departments. However, Ofcom’s figures reveal that banks and utility companies use them the most.
All the Big Four banks’ customer-service help lines are 0845 numbers and some also use 0870 lines. Alliance & Leicester and Lloyds TSB employ the dearer 0870 numbers for certain services, while NatWest only allows customers access to their branches through 0845 lines.
Caroline Harris of NatWest said: “Introducing 0845 numbers meant we could ensure customers could always contact their branch through a local-rate number.” However, she refused to disclose how much the bank makes by using 0845 lines.
Special-service lines were designed to help firms handle high volumes of calls. But the fact that they are money makers has made them popular, whether or not the organisations have high call volumes.
Chris Williams of Uswitch.com, a comparison website, said: “Firms usually get a cut of the call charge from the phone company. On average they make about 2½p a minute from a daytime 0870 call and ½p a minute from an 0845 one. So there is definitely a financial incentive for companies to keep customers on the phone for as long as possible.”
Ofcom wants to introduce maximum 0845 and 0870 charges of 4p and 8p a minute. However, the ceilings will apply only to numbers operated by BT.
A spokesman for Which?, the consumer lobbyist, said: “There is a lot of confusion among customers about how much it costs to call these numbers. One of the main problems is that Ofcom can only introduce price ceilings for BT because it is the dominant telecoms provider. It has no real way of regulating other companies’ charges.”
The numbers are often described as local or national rate, but increased competition means many people pay more to ring an 0845 number than they do to make a local call. This is particularly true for those with plans that include free minutes because there is always a charge for 0845 and 0870 numbers.
Ofcom said: “Discounted call packages mean consumers contacting organisations close to their homes would often be better off calling local numbers rather than 0845 or 0870.”
The regulator is planning to introduce guidelines to help give consumers a clearer idea of 0845 and 0870 charges. But critics believe more should be done to improve clarity, especially as rates vary so much. Some 0870 numbers cost 10p a minute, while others charge only 10p a call.
Williams added: “The cost of the call usually depends on the one or two numbers that follow the initial four digits. However, without contacting your telecoms provider, it is pretty much impossible to know how much you are going to be charged.”

Great to see at last the media is taking notice of these rip off numbers. Interesting though is Natwest's comments that by giving an 0845 number, customers will aways be put through to their local branch. How does it work that you can contact your local branch if you are ringing an 0845 number? I thought that the reason for these 0845 numbers was to give one number for all wherever you are ringing from? (Like passport offices, DVLA etc. etc.)  It still doesn't take away the fact that I will be charged more for calling an 0845 number to my LOCAL branch, rather than dialling an 0161 number using 18866, thereby getting a free call.  Am I missing the point here or are Natwest trying to con us??

Seems that Ofcom still has a long way to go. No good issuing guidelines for consumers because in some instances we won't have a choice (Alliance & Leicester for example).  How about they just ban 0870 and 0845 numbers or slap a premium on companies that want to use these numbers??

A combination. The NatWest spoke does not know quite what they are talking about, having been poorly briefed by someone with little telecoms understanding - save perhaps that provided by an 087 or 084 provider?

As for contacting Natwest on my lacal branch.  What benefit does the 0845 number provide.  If on the old geographic system, then maybe you'll get an engaged tone, and have to try again, so does this mean that by ringing 0845, you'll always get through to your branch.

If so, how does having an 0845 number make a difference.  Surely there's a limit to the number of staff in the branch, if the whole of your town wanted to call.

Or maybe, the call gets routed to another branch, which isn't busy with phone calls, but surely that then defeats the object of being able to call you local branch, and speak to your bank manager.

It's not about giving customers convenience, it's about Natwest wanting to make more money.

Boycotting may not be easy.
A better approach might be to list companies that DO NOT use any geographic numbers.
Surely, there must be many.

wrote on Jan 26^th, 2005 at 2:36pm:

Boycotting may not be easy. A better approach might be to list companies that DO NOT use any geographic numbers. Surely, there must be many.

A list of companies that don't use any non-geographic numbers is an excellent idea, and  would be a valuable addition to the site. However, companies that use 0800 numbers should be listed too - strictly speaking, they are non-geographic numbers too, but I for one don't complain when I have to call them!

wrote on Jan 26^th, 2005 at 2:36pm:

Boycotting may not be easy. A better approach might be to list companies that DO NOT use any geographic numbers.

That's a good idea!

There are also companies which I have written to pointing out what these numbers are, and they don't bother to reply. May be we could name and shame these. One such company is Miller Brothers who use 0870 numbers to contact their branches. I have emailed (who I believe is the MD) twice.

Many companies justify the use by telling us about the benefits. We are subsidising their phone system.

None have acknowledged revenue, despite mentioning it. So how come Ofcom talks about 'value-added' services which need 'revenue payments'?

None seem to be aware that 084/087 prices have been kept high so that payments can be made to telcos providing the numbers (who, in turn, share this with the terminating party ie them).

Ofcourse, it isn't just BT. These prices were kept high to allow other NGN providers into the market. We are now paying these providers for their services to their customers!

Re: Boycott 0870 companies? « Reply #2 on: Jun 19th, 2004, From jbp435.
Hi,
I’ve only just found the “saynoto…” site and saw your message.

You asked, “So how do we widely promote the message?” Have you seen the business section of the Sunday Times, 23rd Jan.?
It's also now on this forum, posted on 23rd Jan.
I've scanned it and sent it to everybody on my contacts list, over 500 people. If we all do the same, we MAY get somewhere with regard to “Publicizing” this diabolical RIP-OFF! As well broadcasting the existence of this site.

wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2004 at 10:32am:

One suggestion is that if you cannot find an alternative number on this site you can write, e-mail or Fax to them instead. This does admittedly take longer to get a response, but if lots of people do this it actually costs the company more to deal with than a simple telephone call to a Geographic number would and so makes the point in a very effective way. You can also mention in your communication that the only reason you are doing this by other means is because they are not offering a normal Geographic number for communication with them, and you have a policy not to call Premium numbers or disguised Premium numbers. You can even state that you have barred all Premium numbers and disguised Premium numbers from your telephone, which is true if you have a "mental bar" on calling them - like me!

Hello DORF,
I concur with all you've said, especially regarding your "MentalBar".which also applies to myself. But, if I have no alternative but to use an 0870 number, as soon as I get through, I insist, that if they want my business, they call me back, and pay for the call. it often works. Except for one company my wife deals with, DAXON. they are impossible, with long waits etc.
Best Wishes.

January 30, 2005
A&L ‘forces savers to use rip-off numbers’
A reader says the bank subjected him to a ‘Gestapo-style interrogation’ when he tried to avoid its 0870 line. By Jessica Bown
ALLIANCE & LEICESTER has angered consumer lobbyists by refusing to accept calls from a customer trying to avoid high 0870 telephone charges.
Most of the big banks use 0845 numbers for their customer-service lines. These cost up to 5p a minute and can make the companies about Åp a minute.
But Alliance & Leicester insists that customers call an 0870 number for general information about its accounts. These lines cost up to 10p a minute and can make about 2Åp a minute for the bank.
Ofcom, the telecoms regulator, is investigating the use of 0845 and 0870 lines after complaints from consumers who believe companies using the numbers unnecessarily prolong calls to increase revenue.
Last week The Sunday Times suggested a way to get round paying rip-off rates to call banks and other companies on these numbers.
So-called special service numbers such as 0845 and 0870 do not work when called from overseas. The banks must therefore give customers an alternative number if they are travelling abroad. But these numbers also work from within Britain — you simply remove the +44 UK code and add a zero.
Alternative local-code numbers for many well-known firms are also available through the website Saynoto0870.com.
Last week’s story drew a big response from readers who have faced larger than expected phone bills after calling 0845 or 0870 lines.
Mick Fowell, a retired contracts manager from Gimingham in Norfolk, used the local-code number to call his bank, Alliance & Leicester, in the way we suggested.
He said it worked the first time, but when he called the same number again a few hours later he was questioned and told he would have to call the 0870 line because he was telephoning from Britain.
Fowell, 66, said: “I was delighted to find a way round calling these expensive numbers. But I was subjected to a Gestapo-style interrogation when I used the local code to call the bank again.
“When I confessed I wasn’t calling from abroad I was told, very firmly, that my call was not acceptable and that I must call the 0870 number instead. The same thing happened when I tried again later that day. I am so disgusted that I am considering switching to a rival bank.”
A spokesman for Alliance & Leicester said: “It is not generally our policy to refuse to take calls from customers who call the international local-code number from within Britain.
“But we would urge people to use the normal customer-services number because it puts them through the automated security system. This is designed to ensure that they get through to the right person as quickly as possible.”
Alliance & Leicester refused to disclose how much money it makes through its 0870 customer services line because it is “commercially sensitive information”.
The bank argues that anyone calling the local-code numbers from outside the local area would pay a national rate that costs the same per minute as an 0870 call.
However, the national-rate cost of an 0870 number is based on BT’s now-defunct standard plan, and many people can now call other parts of the country much more cheaply.
Some even have a set amount of free minutes included in their contracts, but these do not apply to 0845 and 0870 numbers. There is always a charge for calls to such lines.
Alan Williams of Which?, the consumer lobbyist, said: “Calling 0845 and 0870 numbers is dearer than calling local-code lines for lots of people.
“We think it’s wrong of the bank to refuse to accept calls from people using the local-code number and would like to see all companies offering customers an alternative to 0845 or 0870 lines.”
Some readers also wrote in expressing disappointment that Ofcom was not doing more to prevent banks and other companies from boosting profits by charging customers more for access to basic services.
Maurice Redman from Edinburgh said: “ The government should either make Ofcom put a stop to this scam or replace it with an organisation that will.”
Ofcom cannot introduce price ceilings for telecoms companies other than the dominant provider — BT. But it plans to reduce BT’s price ceilings to 4p and 8p a minute respectively and is considering handing responsibility for the policing of 0845 and 0870 numbers to Icstis, the premium-rate phoneline regulator.

wrote on Jan 30^th, 2005 at 10:23am:

January 30, 2005 A&L ‘forces savers to use rip-off numbers’ A reader says the bank subjected him to a ‘Gestapo-style interrogation’ when he tried to avoid its 0870 line. By Jessica Bown ALLIANCE & LEICESTER has angered consumer lobbyists by refusing to accept calls from a customer trying to avoid high 0870 telephone charges. [...]

In most other countries, this action by A+L would simply not be tolerated. It is just staggering that the regulatory authorities, the ones that exist to protect the public, allow A+L to refuse calls on its real number rather than its rip off one. This should be stopped by either the telecommunication regulator, the banking regulator or both. The fact that it isn't just shows how ineffective, impotent and incompetent these public bodies really are. Do they serve the public? - not a hope.

wrote on Jan 30^th, 2005 at 2:07pm:

... It is just staggering that the regulatory authorities, the ones that exist to protect the public, allow A+L to refuse calls on its real number rather than its rip off one. ...

Of course the regulator will call this a 'value-added' service. The bank, apparently, does not make enough money.
::)

Why is it that ISPs can provide 'pay as you go' internet with the revenue generated by 0845, but poor Alliance & Leicester require the revenue of 0870?

My wife and I are so fed up with companies which use 0870 and 0845 numbers for their customer service phone lines that we have decided that in future before purchasing a product we will check the customer service number and if they use 0845 or 0870 we will not buy their product.

If everybody did that the use of such numbers would cease.

Great Idea.

Make sure to tell them and Why your doing it.

Better still if you've been a long standing customer of some such offending institution , tell them you're leaving and why.

Bear in mind though in most cases they'll be as misled as everyone else and require educating & convincing to change their misguided ways.

(Don't be so hard on them if they at least give equal prominence to a geographic alternative 'though.)

Should we maybe start (if there isn't one already) a list of organisations who avoid them altogether, or better still have given them up ?

The datababase on this site effectively only recognises / identifies offenders.

What a good idea.

However, how do we start such a database?


Trevor

Well, until it gets to any size, keep it simple, like a thread in this forum, in a similar vein to, eg :-
this post

The 0870/0845 numbers arer so prevalent that it is pretty well impossible to avoid these companies, although I have found that my bill has reduced considerably with the excellent alternative numbers found on this site (I'm on BT Option 3 so 0845/0870 can have a big impact as I'm not paying for other calls)

I do agree that if you can find an alternative supplier who uses geographic numbers and everything else is equal you should transfer your business and tell the original supplier why.

I wonder how much first time business these suppliers miss out on. If I'm looking for something I will always call those supplying geographic number first. If I find 2 or 3 and at least one of those meets my price and quality requirements the decision is made and the 0870/0845 suppliers have missed out on my business (even if I could have looked them up on this site).

As more people become aware of the 0870/0845 issue more companies who use these numbers (for sales enquiries) are going to lose out to competitors who don't. The problem is they won't see (for quite sometime anyway) why they lost the business, because they will have not got the calls in the first place.

Of course the worst offenders are those that use 0800 for sales and 0870 for after sales calls (particularly complaints!)

Re the suggestion of a list of suppliers who use geographic numbers or have changed to geographic number - I think that is an excellent idea. I would certainly use it and add to it.

I agree too - a good idea.

[glb]Why not also have a list of those companies who not only use 0870/0845 but who determinedly refuse to provide geographic equivalent numbers. [/glb]  Or is that most companies?  (I'm still a newbie here and am just starting to ask for geo numbers as I need them so to post here later)

Thanks

Is it better to have sinned & repented, than never to have sinned at all ?

I think it's pretty much endemic with large & medium companies.

Any large company that hasn't by now, is pretty much likely to have had the tempatation dangled in front of them, and resisted.

Quote:

Any large company that hasn't by now, is pretty much likely to have had the tempatation dangled in front of them, and resisted.

I wonder how much commission BT so called "sales-persons" get for signing up a company to use 0870? I also often wonder if these companies that succumb to the slippery snake-oil sales talk have to sign a contract agreeing they will not release their underlying geographic number?

There must be some pretty big incentives out there for so many organisations to take the bait. They can't all be suckers....can they?  ???

Keith wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 4:38pm:

(I'm on BT Option 3 so 0845/0870 can have a big impact as I'm not paying for other calls).

You must be one of the few people that still are. ;D
Ever considered using a cheaper supplier?

It's quite shameful how the big computer manufacturers and retailers use 0870 numbers for sales. Savastore (Watford Electronics) even use a 10p/min 0871!  >:(

However, Gateway offer an 020 number for support.  :)

Personally Dave, I'd boycott Watford Electronics/Savastore altogether, rather than try to deal with them by phone. They have (some) cheap prices, but the honesty of their delivery time and stock availability quotes is... questionable to say the least! And they just never answer those 0871 numbers, once they've got you listening to the music.

Luckily I can benefit from their prices without having to endure too much poor service. I live nearby - I can collect in person, and I can go in and create a scene if there is a problem with the goods. And if they try to fob me off with an imported reconditioned item with instructions in an obscure language, instead of a new UK model, I can refuse to accept it.

Have a look at http://www.grumbletext.co.uk/vt.php?t=430&subj=complaints+Watford+Electronics+complaint if you need any more convincing.

In fact, come to think of it, their staff would all be good candidates for future vacancies at OFCOM - a body which shows similar levels of respect for the citizen consumer...

GrahamH wrote on Feb 21^st, 2006 at 12:32am:

In fact, come to think of it, their staff would all be good candidates for future vacancies at OFCOM - a body which shows similar levels of respect for the citizen consumer...

Not sure that the Watford staff would have the correct city business manner or smart suits to blend in well at all those business lunches and important cocktail parties that senior Ofcom staff are unlucky enough to have to regularly attend. ;)  ::)

How about we start  boycott of all companies that use these despicable numbers?
I NEVER call people unless I have their land line number.
We should all get 0871 numbers so that when these people call us back they have to pay for it!

There is no other reason than income gathering for using these numbers.
The claim that it's easier to transfer calls is nonsense. In this country now, modern telecomms allows anything on any number.

Foreign manufacturers call Britain 'Treasure Island'. This is because the British government is totally in bed with big business (UK or foreign owned), and puts their interests above those of its own people.  Is there any other government which so ignores its duty to look after its own people?   Remember the NatWest Three who were extradited to USA without any need to show a prima facie case against them?  I think the French tourist office still make you use a premium rate to phone them - well if they want my money, they won't get anywhere with that policy!

British consumers - time to wake up!  We are the laughing stock of the world for our supine attitude.

I agree with a boycott of businesses which treat customers with such contempt as to make them use premium rate numbers.  Not always easy because this racket is so widespread.  I try to get round it with e-mail, but often the website is so geared as to prevent you from contacting them in this way.

Yep, the French Tourist Office does indeed use an 0906 number (60p a minute) for us to contact them. I've just submitted the geographic number (020 7399 3520) to the database - God bless 192.com :)