I can't believe this but it appears to be correct.

Following a recent thread on the uk.telcom newsgroup (where fellow parents of offspring, who have recently started at university, were bemoaning the cost of calls to their study bedrooms, which are allocated 0870 numbers...), it was suggested that 3U only charge 2p/1p/1p (daytime/evenings/weekends) for such calls.

Since then, i have made contact with 3U ( 0800 279 0091 and www.3utelecom.co.uk ) and they have confirmed this is their charge for both 0870 and 0845 calls (in fact, all non-geographic calls as far as I can tell). They also provide the option of a call-by-call service (using 12911) or CPS service.

On the face of it, this is a lot cheaper than any other provider I am aware of - in fact they must be making a loss on such calls.

Is this too good to be true? If not, the cheapest call provider's list will need updating and calls to my daughter will become longer and more frequent than in the last couple of weeks!

I really would love to believe that but, having studied 3utelecom's website, I can't find anywhere where non-geographic numbers are mentioned.

Admittedly, the prices you quote are shown as being their 'National Rates' (here we go again with confusion being caused by the continued use of that phrase) but I'm going to remain sceptical until I can find specific entries on their published price list (which I can't at the moment).

Yes, I couln't find anything about it on the website either so i emailed them and now have written confirmation from them that 0870 and 0845 calls are charged at the same rate as geographic calls.

Contact them yourself if you don't believe it. Why they don't publish this info more clearly I do not know. Perhaps their (simple) tariff structure relies on users only making a small percentage of non-geographic calls and, once the word gets out, they'll block the loophole? Oh, why didn't I keep it to myself!?

No access yet for cable customers

Is it because they have off shore facilities that they can offer the savings on the 08xx numbers?

If you look carefully on the 3u web site you will find the inevitable truth! They seem to have missed mentioning it for calls made using their code, but in the CPS section it states: "National Calls – Calls to UK national numbers, not including: mobile numbers, local calls or calls to special tariff numbers (such as national rate 0870 numbers). "

I am sure that we can presume that the same is even more likely to apply to calls made using the code, since CPS rates are, as always, more price competitive.

It's a great pity ......... but inevitable. It is the premiums which have to be paid with all revenue-sharing NGNs (disguised Premium numbers) that make price competition practically impossible. That is why BT started this gambit in the first place.

However, they like so many are still wrongly using the term "National" rate which is not now true. Someone ought to complain to Trading Standards about this?

Well spotted dorf.

Interesting about that 'confirmation' e-mail Victor Delta received - just goes to prove even the telcos can be fooled by the continued use of that damned 'National Rate' phrase.

Or does it?  (see below)

This really is most interesting because I have spoken to them again and been assured that 0870 & 0845 calls (at least) are charged at the same 2/1/1p rates as other land-line calls. When I queried this, the very helpful guy I spoke to did say that they get a lot of queries about this but it is absolutely correct.

Indeed, the original UK.telecom thread that gave me the idea includes a post from someone who has been using 3U for several months who confirms it is correct.

Anyway, I for one have now signed up for the Call-by-Call service and will let you know what happens.

All we need now is to get your own 0870 number, which some companies will pay 3p minute in revenue during peak time.

Then call yourself at 8am in the morning, then hang up at 6pm, every weekday.

Your phone bill is 2p minute, your revenue is 3p minute.

1p per minute profit per minute = 60p hour = £6 per 10 hours.

Do this every weekday, and you make £30 per week!!

All this for just calling yourself.  Quite a loophole here.

Just hope their rates are correct, else you won't get the money to pay for the large phone bill.

PS - What about 0871 rates!!

???Having signed up to this service, I put it to the test by trying to dial two separate 0845 numbers - and guess what! - 'number unobtainable' sound with both numbers. I checked their service out with non-0845 numbers and no problem getting a ring tone. I tried to contact them to query this problem but no one there on a Saturday! They've obviously had second thoughts about offering their flat rate charge across the board.  >:(

Have you tried any 0870 numbers?

I had the same experience as you with an 0845 number but more success with 0870 numbers. Which seems odd, doesn't it?

Yes, I've tried 0870 numbers and these 'go through' - re-tried a number of 0845 numbers but no success! So what do we do? Keep quiet and just use 3U for 0870 numbers or query the situation and risk a complete clampdown on both 0870 and 0845 numbers? SH.

I've just spoken to them. Apparently they have a known problem (fault) at the moment with calls to 0845 numbers owing to an issue with one of their partner networks.

They are currently trying to resolve the problem and I have been promised an email when they have. I'll keep you posted.

It seems to me that the cheapest way of phoning 0870 numbers, especially during the day and if you expect the call to last longer than 4 minutes (call centre on hold...) is using a BT Payphone. 30p for up to 15 minutes.

Owain

hmm, I wonder if 0fcom might consider this anti-competitive?

Another reminder to put those consultation responses in.

I just called 3U.  They tell me that 0845 numbers can no longer be dialled using their service, but that 0870s will be charged at 2p/min peak and 1p/min off-peak.

About two weeks ago I faxed to my MP (Michael Mates) and asked him to arrange for Government Departments to release the "real" numbers to the public.  He has assured me that he has contacted the appropriate Minister with my request.  Hopefully the Government will issue "real" numbers soon.

wrote on Nov 16^th, 2004 at 4:19pm:

About two weeks ago I faxed to my MP (Michael Mates) and asked him to arrange for Government Departments to release the "real" numbers to the public.  He has assured me that he has contacted the appropriate Minister with my request.  Hopefully the Government will issue "real" numbers soon.

I did similar (using the aptly-named faxyourmp.com site) - complaining more generally about 0870 numbers.  I got a reply but, frankly, it was a typical 'holding' letter saying my complaint was being passed to 'the appropriate department' (yeah, fat chance).

There is a very good reason that 3U have disallowed 0845 calls which is that these numbers can be used for dialup internet so people could potentially connect for hours at a time although since their rate is only 2p against BT's 3p in the daytime, and as nearly everyone is now on either ADSL or 0808 subscription dialup, I can't see they are taking that much of a risk.

But I think that at present there are ways to route calls back into the uk from overseas for an 0870 that mean they get charged to the phone company the same as a geographic but that this is impossible for 0845 again due to their ISP usage.

However since Call18866 are such an innovative lot (1p for geographic calls no matter how long 24/7) and as they have been forced to suddenly charge more than BT for 0870 (i.e. we would really much rather not carry this call for you at all) I can't believe that 3U can sustain this for long or know what they are doing.

What I want to know though is why is there no article anywhere on line that exposes the whole 0870 NTS number termination regime and why there is no price competition in routing these calls??  I know that 0870's revenue share with the called company at up to 3p per minute but surely this gives another 4.5p per minute to play with compared to the 1p flat charged by 18866 for geographic calls?

I believe that 0870s are in fact also a massive revenue defender for BT who earn 3p a minute when one of these numbers are called compared to mere fractions of a penny for any other call.  The infuriating thing is that no one has ever been prepared to discuss why there is no competition in the price of calling the numbers and sadly 18866 do not have a phone number to call and ask this question to.

I believe that BT shot themselves in the foot big time when they made Option 1 compulsory as a minimum for their customers.  I also think Ofcom may have had a secret agenda in mysteriously agreeing to this change and I believe it is now just a matter of time until BT are forced to cut the cost of 0870 calls to 3p per minute and reduce the revenue shares to the called parties accordingly.  I still don't think you will then be able to better this new 3p rate through any third party phone providers and I bet 0870s will still be excluded from inclusive callling plans.

Hi Non-geographical man,

Good points, but

Quote: " What I want to know though is why is there no article anywhere on line that exposes the whole 0870 NTS number termination regime and why there is no price competition in routing these calls??"

There is exactly that already on-line, and has been for quite a while now. You will find it spelt out on
http://www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf

Quote: "I believe that 0870s are in fact also a massive revenue defender for BT who earn 3p a minute when one of these numbers are called compared to mere fractions of a penny for any other call.  The infuriating thing is that no one has ever been prepared to discuss why there is no competition in the price of calling the numbers and sadly 18866 do not have a phone number to call and ask this question to."  

This is also all discussed on  http://www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf , and particularly is stated to Ofcom in the response templates there for your use. This is exactly why BT started it all.  

Get those responses in to Ofcom. Use http://www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf  and make it easier for yourselves!!

wrote on Nov 27^th, 2004 at 2:20pm:

Hi Non-geographical man, Good points, but There is exactly that already on-line, and has been for quite a while now. You will find it spelt out on http://www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf

OK that's interesting but why is this not listed at all by Google under a uk search for 0870 and ripoff?  Or do BT have a spy at Google too that allows them to scupper any attempts to criticise them?

Anyhow I have sent my extensive thoughts on this matter to the researcher guy at the BBC and will also separately be outlining to him why a local authority are told that they have no choice but to use an 0845 number for a telephone based credit card payments number.

Hi NonGeographical man,

The reason has two parts I believe. Firstly Google is in fact the very worst search engine on the web, if you want to find information which is actually there. (I could justify that to you if you have the time.) It is the most successful search engine at making MONEY and it does this by providing what the advertisers want you to see, rather than what you are actually searching for. It uses complex algorithms which distort truth and reality to deliver commercially-sponsored entries first. It also has a number of restricting (and excluding) rules for non-commercial sites. One for example is if you have two iterrations of a non-commercial (non-Google sponsored) site it tends to exclude both sites.

Secondly, it carries a lot of advertising for 0870 sellers etc. The Tripod site used to come up well on the first page of Google. Over the last 2 weeks it has been removed! I suspect that the advertisers of 0870 services etc. may have complained to Google. This all shows that the campaign is working and causing these people to run-scared. You need to understand that this scam has become a billions of pound a year business with quasi-criminal elements having a vested interest. So I think it has been zapped on Google. The only search on Google which any longer delivers either of the sites on the first page is "0870abuse" with no space. It also comes up on the 2nd page for "0870 racket". It looks like they forgot to zap those two!

On the other hand, searches on Altavista, Yahoo, WebCrawler, MSN and most other major search engines still come up well;  to illustrate the point with just 4.

Altavista:  

0870 abuse  : 1st
0870 racket  :1st
0870 scam  :1st
0870 rip off  : 1st
0870 rip-off  : 1st
0870 scandal:  1st

Yahoo:  

0870 abuse  : 1st & 2nd
0870 racket  :1st
0870 scam  :1st  & 2nd
0870 rip off  : 1st
0870 rip-off  : 1st
0870 scandal:  1st

WebCrawler:

0870 abuse  : 5th
0870 racket  : 2nd
0870 scam  :1st
0870 rip off  : 1st
0870 rip-off  : 1st
0870 scandal:  1st

MSN:

0870 abuse  : 1st
"0870 racket"  :1st
0870 scam  :1st
0870 rip off  : 1st
0870 rip-off  : 1st
"0870 scandal" :  1st  

I hope that illustrates the point?

I've also discovered today that Google have forgotten to zap some other possibilities, and the following still come up with the campaign site on the first page of a Google search for UK sites:

"0870, 0845 scam" :  1st

"scam of 0870, 0845"

"scam with 0870".

I suggest that everyone possible should protest to Google about the removal of the campaign sites from their listings for the apparent reason of advertiser's complaints against them !

On the uk.telecom news group there has been a recent discussion suggesting that, although 3U customers cannot make 0845 calls via the usual 12911 prefix code, they can do it by using the 1664 prefix instead. The rates charged are 3U's normal 2/1/1p tariff.

Has anyone tried it?

wrote on Nov 28^th, 2004 at 10:59pm:

On the uk.telecom news group there has been a recent discussion suggesting that, although 3U customers cannot make 0845 calls via the usual 12911 prefix code, they can do it by using the 1664 prefix instead. The rates charged are 3U's normal 2/1/1p tariff. Has anyone tried it?

Interesting but what exactly is the 1664 access code for?  If this for a secondary service of 3U?

I had a call from a German lady at 3U this morning and she was actually in  Germany even though I had left my message on the uk operation's voicemail.  So Ithink this tells you how small their uk presence currently is.

She said 0870 numbers are definitely 2p a minute.

Two points to make here:-

1) has anybody had their first invoice from 3U confirming 0870 calls are only 2p per minute

2) Please nobody else ring 3U to ask if 0870 numbers are 2p a minute as otherwise they are bound to realise something is wrong, investigate and change their pricing policy.  As they are primarily a German company they probably haven't twigged the significance of 0870 as an access number yet or how large the call volumes are potentially likely to be.

1664 is Equitalk's prefix number - see www.equitalk.co.uk

I gather 3U uses the same carrier as Equitalk (possibly MCI Worldcom?) and so 3U customers can apparently use the 1664 code as well (and are charged at 3U rates).

On your second point, I haven't received my first 3U bill yet so can't confirm their 0870/0845 rates (like you, I've had many verbal and email assurances).

However, so many people have already asked them about the 0870 tariff issue that I can't believe they haven't twigged the anomaly yet.

Maybe as long as the percentage of 0870 calls is small compared to the total call traffic they are happy to leave it as a loss leader? It certainly enables them to have a nice simple tariff scheme (2/1/1p for all uk calls).  

I can confirm - as I have had the bill in recently - that 3U Telecom 12911 provide 0870 numbers at 0.017p per minute + VAT = 2p per minute. However, I find the sound quality terrible and connections take a while to get through as your call 'boomerangs' around the world. 3U have confirmed to be that there are problems accessing 0845 numbers via access code 12911 - however, they have arranged for an alternative access code 0f 1664 to be used for 0845 numbers at the agreed rate and the sound quality is good. I am also using the 1664 access code for 0870 numbers in order to get the better sound but I have no way of knowing the cost of such calls.

wrote on Nov 29^th, 2004 at 5:10pm:

1664 is Equitalk's prefix number - see [url=www.equitalk.co.uk[/url]]www.equitalk.co.uk[/url] Maybe as long as the percentage of 0870 calls is small compared to the total call traffic they are happy to leave it as a loss leader? It certainly enables them to have a nice simple tariff scheme (2/1/1p for all uk calls).

It seems strange then that call18866 cannot afford to do this since most people here really are already likely to be using call18866 for all their other uk calls.

Also does anyone know why 18866 and 1899 do not offer CPS as an option.  Presumably routing a call using CPS does add a further fixed cost for every call routed?

Lastly I think the problem for 3U is that most people who are price sensitive enough to have found them will only use them for 0870 calls and will use 18866 for everything else.

Quote:

It seems strange then that call18866 cannot afford to do this since most people here really are already likely to be using call18866 for all their other uk calls.

They probably could (as could BT etc) but it all comes down to marketing strategy in the end, surely?

Regarding your last point, whilst there will always be those who 'cherry pick' the best tariff for each call (with or without the use of a dialler), surely 3U and others don't need to worry as most customers (the vast majority) simply want a package that gives them good value on their calls overall - they don't want to have to worry about the complexities of dialling different prefix codes for different numbers at different times of the day/week?

??? To those who know!!

Perhaps a little behind the times but could someone tell me what "CPS" means?

Being pretty new to this area of moneysaving I still have mild suspicions ( call me a synic if you like) but if 18866 collect the £0.50 (my total months usage) from my credit card dosn't it become uneconomical?

Further, a relative of mine works in authority at a large Uni & expressed interest in these services. Am I right in assuming that greater turnover would be welcomed by the suppliers?

Tony

Carrier Pre Selection, whereby your line provider, e.g. BT, sets your line so that your calls are routed via your alternative provider of choice without your having to dial any access code.

Be very wary of terms and conditions (T&C), like notice of cancellation.

wrote on Dec 1^st, 2004 at 5:23pm:

??? To those who know!! Being pretty new to this area of moneysaving I still have mild suspicions ( call me a synic if you like) but if 18866 collect the £0.50 (my total months usage) from my credit card dosn't it become uneconomical?

Well it is not uneconomical to you for them to collect 50p but it is uneconomical for them as they will have to pay a much higher percentage fee or possibly a flat minimum fee on collecting such a small amount.

That is why Call18866 does not bother to bill your credit card in a month where your balance has not reached £5

I trust Call18866 implicity with the accuracy of their billing and for not charging me for calls that I dial but that are not answered.  I know this is so by checking my online bill for these calls as a test only a minute or two afterwards.

I only wish I could say the same of TalkTalk who I currently have CPS with but am about to switch away from in favour of 3U.

wrote on Dec 1^st, 2004 at 5:34pm:

Carrier Pre Selection, whereby your line provider, e.g. BT, sets your line so that your calls are routed via your alternative provider of choice without your having to dial any access code. Be very wary of terms and conditions (T&C), like notice of cancellation.

Your current CPS supplier gets cancelled automatically by informing a new supplier that you wish to move CPS to them.

Theoretically you can have different CPS carriers for local, national and international calls but only 3U currently seem to support this and the others only offer CPS for All Calls.

As a last resort you can always get rid of your current CPS supplier by telling BT you wish to go back to them.  But speaking personally I would rather shower in ice cold water and beat myself on the back for a week with birch twigs than ever help the BT PR machine by letting myself become one of the customers who they will claim has just returned to them that month. :o

wrote on Nov 29^th, 2004 at 5:14pm:

I can confirm - as I have had the bill in recently - that 3U Telecom 12911 provide 0870 numbers at 0.017p per minute + VAT = 2p per minute.

If that's the case, could this be added to the Cheapest Calls page http://www.saynoto0870.com/calls.php (although it doesn't seem to have been updated recently).

I think the original poster meant to say the cost of 0870 calls with 3U is 1.7p per minute + VAT which comes out at almost exactly 2p per minute.

I expect they will stop the offer if they find people like us are only making 0870 calls with them and so losing them money as a result.

They have probably decided to give it a go for a while as a new market entrant to grow their customer base but when they get too many customers calling mainly 0870 and it is costing them too much money they will have to stop.

Unless of course they have found a way to route calls to 0870 numbers at the same price as geographic calls that not even call18866 has so far managed to discover.

It doesn't matter. The "cheapest calls" page should contain the cheapest services as they are now. If another day the service is withdrawn, the page can be updated.

Someone suggested that 3U are based in Germany, and route their calls around the world. I still haven't seen for definite an explanation of how +44 870 calls are charged from various countries. It's hard to believe they can be cheap, thanks to the revenue sharing.

wrote on Dec 15^th, 2004 at 2:59pm:

It doesn't matter. The "cheapest calls" page should contain the cheapest services as they are now. If another day the service is withdrawn, the page can be updated. Someone suggested that 3U are based in Germany, and route their calls around the world. I still haven't seen for definite an explanation of how +44 870 calls are charged from various countries. It's hard to believe they can be cheap, thanks to the revenue sharing.

All 3U need to do is to find a telecoms call carrier somewhere in the world who for reasons of simplicity or stupidity do not charge 3U differently for 0870 calls even though it costs that company more to terminate an 0870 call than it would to a uk geographic number.

The same thing happened for a while on international mobile calls for some years where the customer paid no more to make the call, even though the company terminating the call was definitely charging telecoms carriers a higher amount.

But there again the supidity on this matter could well lie back at 3U or it could be a cunning tactic to capture lots of new customer leads before then dramatically rasing their prices for 0870 calls.

3U bills are send from Germany but the invoice inside requests payment be sent to their London address.

wrote on Dec 15^th, 2004 at 9:46pm:

3U bills are send from Germany but the invoice inside requests payment be sent to their London address.

Isn't it possible to pay them by direct debit?  I would hate to have to send a cheque every month.

The fact that 3U are German does fill me with a lot more confidence about their reliability and long term commitment to the UK market place than if they were an American owned telecoms company!

Hah! Just came across this thread and guess what - the links to this telecoms Company are all broken, I guess they were making a loss after all LOL. It seems they no longer exist.

Yes it seems their site is no longer there. Is there anyone who actually managed to register as a customer of theirs who knows whether they have collapsed?

Hardly surprising if so. They must have been losing money with 0845 and 0870 at those prices. That's what we concluded in the first place.

It was a bit like the beginning of these scams. Lots of mobile operators and others did not realise they were losing money on these calls because of the Premiums to be paid. As they eventually realised this they withdrew them from their inclusive monthly packages!

wrote on Mar 17^th, 2005 at 6:02am:

Hah! Just came across this thread and guess what - the links to this telecoms Company are all broken, I guess they were making a loss after all LOL. It seems they no longer exist.

I just tried their sites and had no problem with either www.3utelecom.co.uk or www.3utelecom.com  Both sites came up fine.  I think jumping to the conclusion that a company is bust because its website is down for a few hours is a bit hasty.  On that basis on Tuesday this week you would definitely have concluded that Mole Valley District Council had gone out of business!

Their main website says that their motto is "We are different.  We are fair".  A motto which I don't think anyone could suggest was true of BT.

I still don't know why they can't sort out the direct debits though.  If this was two years ago I would make the effort to use their service but now thanks to www.saynoto0870.com I only need to call an 0870 number may be once a month rather than once a day.

The main one I have so far found no way around is TopUpTv customer services.  Does anyone know a geographic number for this?

wrote on Mar 17^th, 2005 at 11:42am:

It was a bit like the beginning of these scams. Lots of mobile operators and others did not realise they were losing money on these calls because of the Premiums to be paid. As they eventually realised this they withdrew them from their inclusive monthly packages!

My guiding light is really www.call18866.co.uk who clearly know what they are doing and how to run a budget telecoms business.

If they can't offer a better price than 9p per minute to 0870 and still make money then my suggestion would be that probably nobody can.  I suspect that with 3u they can absorb the cost and unless and until they offer direct debit and online signup that does not require a signature and a fax of your last BT bill they are unlikely to acquire many uk customers.

I agree NGM, if 18866 can't do NGNs any cheaper and remain solvent then no co. can at present!