Hi,
I'm also trying to find out exactly how much big company call centres  make on 0870 no. per minute/day? Anyone have any inside information. Thanks
paraic.obrien@bbc.co.uk

UK calls resell at 0.6p per minute - and that includes a profit margin.

I am not saying that the 0870 resellers get their calls at this rate, just that they could be getting them even cheaper.

From the research which I have done I have found that the large companies maximising this rip-off are making over 4 p per minute from 0870 and even more from 0871 and 07 PNS. (Although 07 PNS was supposed to be prohibited from revenue sharing by Oftel, it seems that they only prohibited revenue sharing with the end user, so various abuses allow that rip-off to continue, and the yields from that are much greater.) Those companies using the full suite of call duration lengthening gambits are making millions of pounds every year from these scams.

wrote on Nov 5^th, 2004 at 6:30pm:

From the research which I have done I have found that the large companies maximising this rip-off are making over 4 p per minute from 0870 and even more from 0871 and 07 PNS. ...

dorf, which providers pay 4p or more for 0870?

Well I have done a quick check Dave, and it seems that some providers who were previously advertising 4 p per minute and over on their web sites for high call volumes have now removed them, probably due to posts on forums like this about them! Some 6 months ago I listed the urls of a load of these providers on one forum for example.

One that was offering 4 p per minute is http://acommworld.com/ , but they only show the lower rate of 3 p now for lower call volumes; they no longer show a rate for the highest call volumes.

I will look at others to see whether I can find an actual offer still stated and post it here; I assure you though that this is the rate some providers are paying for high call volumes. The campaigning is just making them more careful about clearly advertising these rates probably.

Radio 4 You and Yours 12 noon today (Monday 8 November is to carry an 087X section.

Progress? Perhaps the start of the next stage.

I listened in, and found the news article interesting.  It was a report lasting around 10 minutes.  They tried to interview a range of big companies, asking them how much they make from their 0870 numbers, and surprize surprize, nobody made a comment.

However the BBC said they don't make revenue, as their call centres are supplied by a 3rd party who use the revenue for their own business.

They interviewed a travel agent, who is against 0870 numbers, and told the listeners he uses a normal geographic number, as he doesn't believe in his customers having to pay for customer service.  They should be commended for this stand.  Let's hope other companies follow suit!!

They also interviewed one of our members, who has their own 0870 number, and gives it to insurance companies etc.

I also have my own 0871 number, and have been doing the same, but no mention at all about 0871 numbers anywhere in the article, although they're not so widespread as 0870.

They also put across the point that companies using 0870 numbers charge more than a normal number, and get a cut of the call.

And of course, they mentioned this site, which has had over 1 million hits over the last few months, from people wanting to find geographic numbers, and contribute in these forums.

Just need to put it on a consumer programme on TV now, for a wider audience!!

I have to say I was quite impressed when I listened to the 8 minute 27 second extractcourtesy of a link provided by a member of an associated forum:


wrote on Nov 8^th, 2004 at 6:52pm:

The 0870 contact number for the rail crash is disgraceful!  >:( The 0870 rip off got a mention on BBC Radio 4's You and Yours programme today.  Listen to it here.

That link is now going to form part of every e-mail of complaint* I make!

*TVP and the Home Office have already received same!

I have both an 0870 number, and an 0871 number, which I have had for a few years now (0870 longer than 0871).

I give these to banks, gas and electricity companies and the like, just to get my own back.

When the bank rings me, I keep them on the line asking them, all about their services, and then say I'll have to think about it.

My 0871 diverts directly to my home number, my 0870 to a voicemail box, which I have left a very long announcement on.

I was thinking about setting up a queuing / option system, giving people loads of options, then telling them 'Your call is important to us, please hold, your call will be answered as soon as posible', then after a while the call will go to a voicemail box.

I currently get on my 0871 number: 3.5p per peak minute - 4p per off-peak minute - 5p per weekend minute!

wrote on Nov 9^th, 2004 at 12:40am:

My 0871 diverts directly to my home number, my 0870 to a voicemail box, which I have left a very long announcement on.

Which provider do you use? I was wondering how you managed to get the number to point to your home phone - all of the sites I've seen say domestic customers can't have these numbers.

Towards the end of the excellent programme, Matt Peacock (thingy being, apparently, a garbling introduced by the software instead of four letters denoting a male hen!)  from Ofcom
(a) agreed that 0870 and 0845 are disguised premium numbers
(b) stated that Ofcom "is proposing" that companies etc. are REQUIRED to advertise both 0870/0845 and their real number, with equal prominence.
Four cheers - except that, as far as I can see, the published consultation does not propose that.
What am I missing?
nicholas43

http://www.theuknumbershop.co.uk

Just fill in your own name in the company box.

And http://www.4freetele.com/0870.htm for the 0870 that diverts to voicemail / announce.

Nicholas43, you are right. There is no mention of this in either of the 2 consultation documents.

I think it must be a typical Ofcom red herring! They certainly do not admit in either of these 2 consultation documents that 0870, 0871, 07 PNS or 0845 are being used as Premium numbers. They still attempt to skate around the issue as usual. Also you will note that they have the gall to edit out of the public documents all the statistics which show just how great BT's market share of this rip-off really is!

wrote on Nov 8^th, 2004 at 11:48am:

Progress? Perhaps the start of the next stage.

Another You and Yours mention today (Friday 12 November), including a company that had not realised about the higher charge to callers and had already started to amend its letterheads.

Another example of "sloppy" selling? I wonder where the operator income was going.

But perhaps that is too charitable.

That is very true.  The 0870 numbers thrive because people ring them without realising that they're paying more, and believe they pay the same as calling someone else in the country.

These people will think 0870 means an important company, and might think as it costs alot to get this number, they're not cowboys, when infact it costs almost nothing to get these numbers.

These misguided opinions can be formed by some of the public, some of whom are in a position within a company to get their own 0870 number!!

Not all telecoms companies share revenue, some don't give any, and sell their product to unsuspecting businesses, trying to offer a free memorable number, and call management solutions, and all the company has to do, is tell their customers to call an easy to remember number, which they believe costs the same as the old one!!

The key to this is more media exposure.  Myself, and other members of this site agree it's a con, just need to convince the other 99% of the population we're being ripped off!!

The Campaign sites are now updated and allow you to submit your consultation responses more easily and quickly. (The Ofcom documents are very weighty and would take a long time to go through yourself.) Either of these sites help you to compile your own response much more quickly.

I think everyone that is annoyed by these 0870 etc. DPNs should send  responses to these consultations to show Ofcom just how many consumers there are that are annoyed by this problem. There are 2 responses to send. Don't foget to send yours! You can use either:
http://www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf or  
http://0870abuse.tripod.com.  

Dave,

I have been doing more extensive checks about maximum revenues with high call volumes, and it is quite clear that our campaigning is working. Companies marketing these rip-off numbers are now running scared of us on the net. They are withdrawing their previous bold marketing statements.

The first sign was when they actually used to advertise to companies that it was better to get a 0870 or 0871 number because customers did not like to call 09 numbers but effectively would be fooled into calling 0870 or 0871 without realizing what they were. As the campaigning started they eventually ran scared and deleted these statements from  their sites after it was exposed on various web forums.

Now they are all running scared and removing their advertising statements concerning the maximum rates payable for highest call volumes. This all shows that we are giving them cause for concern. They know that they have now been caught "with their trousers down"! So it seems that they have all now removed their advertised highest rates from their web sites, but if you look quickly, because the search engines take a while to catch up with such changes on web sites the evidence of their site statements prior to amendment still exists on the various search engine listings. Typical examples which I have found today are:

     09 Premium Rate Number - Free 09 number for uk - Free Business
0870 numbers that earn up to 4p per minute in revenue. That means that for every minute someone calls you on your 0870 number you get paid...
http://www.acommfinance.com/premium_numbers.html
18.      internet - www.thinkinternet.co.uk
...up to 2.5p/min for 0870 calls and 4p/min for 0871. No charge for incoming 0845 calls. Earn up to 3p Per Minute ... 0870 generates revenue, plus...
http://www.thinkinternet.co.uk/0870-number.html

When you look at their sites now they have removed the incriminating evidence. Hope that shows you the order of true maximum rates?

Thanks. I just like to get my facts right dorf. So I can say in a letter that some 0870s pay 4p/min or more.

wrote on Nov 9^th, 2004 at 11:10am:

Towards the end of the excellent programme, Matt Peaco*ck stated that Ofcom "is proposing" that companies etc. are REQUIRED to advertise both 0870/0845 and their real number, with equal prominence. Four cheers - except that, as far as I can see, the published consultation does not propose that. What am I missing? nicholas43

Nicholas,

You are missing nothing as poor old Matt clearly got carried away (they are probably preparing the chains and the boat to the gulag for him right now) in mentioning what has clearly been discussed as the next possible policy direction at Ofcom perhaps either regardless of or depending on what comes in during the consultation.

I suspect that the real reason Ofcom is going to change its position is because either Stephen Carter (Ofcom's head man) or a government minister somewhere has changed their mind and realised that 0845/0870 issue is a problem that has to be dealt with.

I suggest you all email the following at Ofcom reminding them that Matt Peaco*ck's comments are not yet reflected in their consultation document proposals and asking why:-

matt.peaco*ck@ofcom.org.uk;stephen.carter@ofcom.org.uk; dominic.morris@ofcom.org.uk; tony.stoller@ofcom.org.uk; simon.crine@ofcom.org.uk; vicki.nash@ofcom.org.uk; rhodri.williams@ofcom.org.uk; denis.wolinski@ofcom.org.uk; kip.meek@ofcom.org.uk; philip.rutnam@ofcom.org.uk; sean.williams@ofcom.org.uk; peter.culham@ofcom.org.uk; andrew.heaney@ofcom.org.uk; polly.weitzman@ofcom.org.uk;ed.richards@ofcom.org.uk;peter.davies@ofcom.org.uk; robin.foster@ofcom.org.uk;peter.ingram@ofcom.org.uk; william.webb@ofcom.org.uk;vic.brashko@ofcom.org.uk; hazel.canter@ofcom.org.uk; kate.stross@ofcom.org.uk; richard.hooper@ofcom.org.uk; david.currie@ofcom.org.uk; david.edmonds@ofcom.org.uk

Geoff Brighton at Ofcom courteously explained to me that:

'The suggestion of encouraging users of NTS numbers to publish alternative geographic numbers is discussed, albeit briefly, in the consultation document at paragraph 6.5. This is in relation to work we have already undertaken with the Central Office of Information in the guidance they give to Government departments. The paragraph reads:

" The COI provides advice and support to public sector organisations on all aspects of communications. Amongst other things, it publishes ‘better practice guidance’ for Government contact centres (see the COI web site at http://www.coi.gov.uk/ccg/). Ofcom and the COI have discussed the use of 08 and 09 numbers by government departments. The COI has been working on an update of its ‘better practice guidance’, and Ofcom has been able to suggest some amendments to this guidance, aimed at:

•     raising the awareness of contact centre managers of the cost of 084 and 087 calls;

•     encouraging the use of geographic numbers alongside 084/087 numbers, so that consumers have a choice; and

•     ensuring that publicity materials do not include any potentially misleading terms, such as ‘local rate’ or ‘national rate’, when describing the cost of calls."

We at Ofcom do encourage this practice and have ourselves published both 0845 and geographic numbers for callers wishing to contact this office.'

Meanwhile the Dept of Transport has replied to my MP defending the DVLA's use of 0870 numbers. DVLA clearly knows nothing of the COI guidance. They claim that they can only get the call logging and diversion technology they need by using 0870. That can't be true, can it? Ofcom's real and 0845 numbers definitely both connect me to exactly the same "press 1/2/3/4 to join the right queue" system.

I guess it may be true that BT only sell their advanced call handling stuff packaged with 0870. Does any reader know of telcos who definitely sell it fronted by real numbers?

wrote on Nov 30^th, 2004 at 11:03am:

•     encouraging the use of geographic numbers alongside 084/087 numbers, so that consumers have a choice

New Labour semantics again.  

IMHO, "encouraging" does not mean the same as "requiring" (unless the English language has changed again).

The DVLA is still trotting out its blatent lie, "Additionally, it was considered iniquitous that some of our customers should benefit from their geographic location to Swansea, whilst other callers paid more for making the same telephone enquiry simply because of their remoteness from Swansea" and no amount of explaining that, even on BT, it costs the same to call a Swansea number from Swansea as it does from anywhere else in the UK (e.g.  Edinburgh), makes it admit the lie.

wrote on Nov 30^th, 2004 at 11:03am:

I guess it may be true that BT only sell their advanced call handling stuff packaged with 0870. Does any reader know of telcos who definitely sell it fronted by real numbers?

You can't get NTS call handling fronted by real numbers but you can get all the features of 0870 NTS call handling, routing and call load information with either an 0845 or with an 0800 Non Geographic NTS number.

I know because the local authority I am a councillor on has just set up an outsourced telephone bill payments service on an 0845 number.

I challenged this with everyone under the sun but in the end the answer was that if we didn't use 0845 we totally lost control if we needed to switch the payments call centre to another third party operator as we would have all the wrong info on our stationery etc, etc, whereas the 0845 number could just be redirected elsewhere at no further cost to us.  Also the problem that as a local authority the more expensive to run geographic number would be noted to be somewhere 70 miles away.

But the real clincher was that if we used a geographic number that apart from losing control of redirecting the calls at a moment's notice that we would also be charged a lot extra for the service by the call centre we were employing to take the credit card payments.

There is no difference in the call handling facilities available between 0845 and 0870, the only difference is the lower revenue share and/or unavailability of revenue share (depening what call volumes you receive) if you use an 0845 number.

But why not take the calls in on your own local 01XXX code and then feed then down the internet to the destination switch? They need not be part of your Council's DDI range (or else you risk congestion, unless you invoke back-busying), but could otherwise be a local number.

Cheaper, no 0845 opprobrium and a friendly local (truly local) code as well, with no penalty to the Council's many constituents using mobile 'phones.

And re-routable (re-routeable?) at the touch of a few keys.

wrote on Nov 30^th, 2004 at 1:05pm:

But why not take the calls in on your own local 01XXX code and then feed then down the internet to the destination switch? They need not be part of your Council's DDI range (or else you risk congestion, unless you invoke back-busying), but could otherwise be a local number. Cheaper, no 0845 opprobrium and a friendly local (truly local) code as well, with no penalty to the Council's many constituents using mobile 'phones. And re-routable (re-routeable?) at the touch of a few keys.

Excellent answer.

I shall put your question straight away to our head of IT and let you know what the response is.

I've now done a bit of googling myself. There is at least one telco:
callagenix.com
which appears to offer call diversion and logging services fronted by what they call UK regional numbers. They (incorrectly) say they offer 0207 and that this implies "city of London". (They mean, of course, 020 in a 7xxx xxxx range.) They also offer 0121 and 0151. I don't know whether they will buy blocks elsewhere on request. They charge the user 2 ppm inbound and 2 ppm for diversion, the same as they charge for 0845. Unfortunately, their sales and support line is 0870!

wrote on Dec 1^st, 2004 at 6:14pm:

They charge the user 2 ppm inbound and 2 ppm for diversion, the same as they charge for 0845. Unfortunately, their sales and support line is 0870!

I don't believe we pay anything at all for the inbound calls to our Council's 0845 service so the above solution costs a lot more.  The point of that service is for people who want to give the world the impression that they are in the City of London, when they are not, and are prepared to pay extra for that privilege.

The calls to our 0845 number are actually terminated by Kingston communications who our automated payments service supplier uses to route the calls on to their ISDN switches that support the touch tone bill payments software (undoubtedly old technology but this supplier do seem to offer a very cheap deal to the Council for the service, so I expect newer technology costs more money).

Our bill payments platform supplier are adamant they do not get any call share revenue so the only people who can be are Kingston Communications, presumably as a quid pro quo for supporting a special kind of ISDN switch?

Using an 01306 number and then using Voice Over IP to forward the calls is not currently an option because our council has not so far implemented any Voice Over IP telephony solutions for its phone equipment and it would not be cost effective to implement such a project just for the benefit of this particular new service.

This is why in the real world there are a huge number of things that push organisations to adopt 0845.  The real sin lies in the code being excluded from inclusive calling plans and charged at different rates off peak call rates from BT Option 1 geographic local calls.  But of course this is bound to happen unless pay as you go dial up internet access is separated onto a different access code as it should have been from the outset if OFTEL hadn't been so fast asleep!

Transport for London use an 020 access number for tube information. This must be a call centre, though I guess they are pretty sure it's going to remain located within the 020 area.

While I'm posting (for the first time!) I would say that I lay the blame for this whole issue fairly and squarely on Oftel (now part of Ofcom), who for nearly five years have been grossly negligent in not enforcing their own pricing conventions against telcos. It's either complete incompetence or high-level corruption.

wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2004 at 11:10pm:

Transport for London use an 020 access number for tube information. This must be a call centre, though I guess they are pretty sure it's going to remain located within the 020 area. I would say that I lay the blame for this whole issue fairly and squarely on Oftel (now part of Ofcom), who for nearly five years have been grossly negligent in not enforcing their own pricing conventions against telcos. It's either complete incompetence or high-level corruption.

Transport for London have a biggish call centre but it is all in one place and they do not reroute the calls anywhere else so don't have to have 0870.  Also as nearly all the calls they receive are from London they probably also don't have the BBC obsession about where the calls are from or even about the people who called them and who hung up before they were answered by a call taker (yet another feature of 0870).

Still TFL are very much bucking the trend on this as most one office call centres are still on 0845 or an 0870 numbers these days just to get a few more pennies out of their customers.  Perhaps TFL think that after paying £2.20 to go one stop on the tube and then having to call to complain there was a 20 minute service gap that paying £1 for the call might be the last straw.

As for OFTEL its failure to act was corruption/active connivance without a doubt.  I spoke to one of the senior Ofcom directors responsible for allowing the 0990/0870 codes in the first place 3 to 4 years ago and he made it perfectly clear that Ofcom had absolutely no intention of doing anything about it even though he knew exacly what was going on.

Many senior OFTEL employees formerly worked at BT or other major Telco companies and then immediately went straight back to their original employers after a short period learning how to evade the OFTEL regulatory system.

BT seems to have been told that 0870 could carry on unstopped so long as they agreed to roll out ADSL to nearly all of the uncovered remaining uk rural exchanges.

Radio 4 You and Yours 12 Noon today Monday 13 December.

Some comment about government departmental use...

If you would like to hear the "You and Yours" coverage here is the link (all 5mins & 29 seconds worth

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/youandyours_20041213_1.ram

Hope it helps.  It includes some advice from 'a Government' spokesman. It is good to know they are interested in the cause, but as someone said earlier in this thread - it needs to be on tv.

wrote on Dec 14^th, 2004 at 1:01am:

It is good to know they are interested in the cause, but as someone said earlier in this thread - it needs to be on tv.

It was a further good item where what was covered was basically entirely accurate although there was some detail that was missed in the name of simplicity.

For instance they compared that a geographic national BT call now costs 3p per minute compared to "about 8p" for 0870 but they neglected to mention that for BT Option 3 customers the difference is actually 0p per minute versus "about 8p".  Also they neglected to do a comparison with say Call18866 where the difference for 30 minutes could be 1p for a geographic national number compared to £2.70 for an 0870 number.

They also failed to ask why when there is such acute and massive price competition for calling geographic numbers there is almost no such competition in the cost of calls to 0870 numbers and how is it that BT and others have managed to so successfuly stifle normal competitive forces.

Lastly they deservedly took the DVLA to task and did some interesting calculations on what they may be making but they failed to do an equivalent job on BBC Information who probably have one of the largest call volumes and make some of the biggest profits from 0870 numbers of any call centre in the uk.

We don't just need tv coverage (this is a story Panorama could cover if they really put their mind to it) but also a tame MP or two to start asking questions on this item in the House of Commons.  Unfortunately I know my MP is not the right man as he is not a guy for detail and this is a detailed and complex issue.  Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Well, writing to local MPs is a good idea.  Most MPs give their constituency phone number, and their London number, but I wonder if any of them have decided to use 0870 numbers for normal contact.

Finding out which ones do (if any) and bringing to their attention the growing public anger at these numbers, and directing them to this site, might force them to change their policy, in order to get a few extra votes!!

Remember it's general election time next year!!

Another report on You and Yours yesterday. Very interesting. Listen here.

Very interesting listening.

Are the DVLA really earning that much from the 0870 number?

wrote on Jan 29^th, 2005 at 3:00pm:

Another report on You and Yours yesterday. Very interesting. Listen here.

Yes it was a fairly good item but they still failed to do a price comparison between the rate charged by the cheapest calls supplier for uk geographic phone calls (call18866) and the 0870 call price charged by that same supplier.  They also continue to miss the point about 0870 numbers being excluded from BT Option 3, given that in the BBC model of the world everyone is unfortunately still assumed to be a Mr and Mrs Jo Average BT loving drongo on some BT call package or other.

Also its a little strange that they didn't hit on how much money one of the other biggest abusers of 0870 (BBC Information) is making out of all this and then rather pathetically had to justify their own 0870 number by saying but we can call you right back. But I already have on record from the IT systems guy at Capita in Belfast (who run the BBC Information call centre) that Cable & Wireless can set up any BBC program they like with an 0800 number at the drop of a hat if they ask for one (and if profit grubbing BBC management agree that this is appropriate).

The guy from the company selling the doctors phone systems was a real charletan.  He could have justified the benefits of the death camps on behalf of Adolf Hitler and also the productivity value of extracting all those gold fillings from the dead bodies.  He was also lying by claiming that 0870 calls cost little more than geographic calls because call times were shorter??!!, but again he was totally ignoring BT Option 3 customers.

What about the BT response to the NTS Options for the Future proposals to be found here?
www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsoptions/Responses/?a=87101

Does anyone know what BT means by the BT Retail geographic local and national call rates?  I wasn't aware that they actually has such a rate.  They only have BT Option 1, 2 and 3 call rates and BT Standard rate which is not the same thing at all.

I had to get BT to correct its mistake in their original submission that they wanted revenue sharing ending on 0871 numbers when they meant 0870.  Perhaps the whole topic has got so confused that even BT now hasn't a clue what its talking about.

Lets go with Ofcom Option 4 in their proposals I say - that is ban all 084 and 087 revenue sharing and reclassify all pay as you go 0844 and 0845 dial up numbers under 04 or 06 number prefix access codes (the latter is my additional suggestion).

Why don't some of you send an email to kath.embleton@bt.com and ask her what she means by the BT Retail Geographic Local and National Rates.  She hasn't answered my question on this so far.

I've added my comments on the interview with Alistair Campbell of Network Europe to the NHS and 0870 thread. Whilst they did get in the important point that the caller is subsidising the phone system, the fact that the system could have been implemented on the existing geographical number was not mentioned at all.

£1.1million per anum the DVLA make out of their 0870s.  :o

wrote on Dec 14^th, 2004 at 2:32pm:

Well, writing to local MPs is a good idea.  Most MPs give their constituency phone number, and their London number, but I wonder if any of them have decided to use 0870 numbers for normal contact. Finding out which ones do (if any) and bringing to their attention the growing public anger at these numbers, and directing them to this site, might force them to change their policy, in order to get a few extra votes!! Remember it's general election time next year!!

Try sending a fax to your MP and MEPs.
This can now be done on www.faxyourmp.co.uk and on www.writetothem.com which are web sute that also monitors the number of times MPs etc fail to respond to their constituents - and publishes it complete with their voting record

And remember this is not only election time but also the future of 087X and 084X decision time as consultations are closed and Ofcom is considering the matter right now.

Its not entirely coincidental that MPs and Radio 4 are suddenly taking a big interest now.  The reason is because any pressure just at this time can help influence the entire outcome of the whole debate.

There is also a lot of rubbish talked about us all using voice over IP a year from now but the real timetable on that front has to be at least 5 to 10 years time as for that to happen on a big scale every line in the country would have to be broadband enabled and every phone replaced with a voice over IP phone.  And what about resilience and robustness for emergency calls if the whole IP network goes belly up due to a fire at Linx or wherever?

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2004 at 2:17am:

they no longer show a rate for the highest call volumes.

web.archive.org is your friend!

Just to touch on the revenue which these scam merchants can make from this racket with call queuing etc., another 0870 etc. marketing company is advertising higher rates again, not yet evidently having realised that this exposes them to us. Take a look at http://www.call08.com/. You had better do it quickly though before they too remove this information like all the others have done when the heat gets turned up! (I have copied this site with this statement of their call Premiums.)

It yet again shows that my statement concerning the Premiums which high call volume receivers are making is over 4 p per minute. Dave please note!

wrote on Feb 6^th, 2005 at 8:56pm:

It yet again shows that my statement concerning the Premiums which high call volume receivers are making is over 4 p per minute. Dave please note!

Did you see last night's Test The Nation major calls money making scam on ITV?

This was an IQ test but where responding to the questions via the internet was not allowed.  They only accepted text messages to an 07 number or phone calls to 09 numbers.

Except there was some part of the process where they suggested you could register by calling an 0870 number "at the national rate"!!!!!

Are these people just shameless liars or are they really that thick (my money is certainly on the former conclusion and not the latter).

What rate per minute do you think you may get on an 0870 number called by 100,000 viewers?

Trisha Goddard's show advertises an 0870 number followed by the statement "Calls charged at national rate".

The Wright Stuff advertises an 0871 number followed by the statement "Calls charged at the national rate".

Neither of which is correct of course because Ofcom have said there is no such thing as the national rate.

But did you know that if you sign up for Britains most popular cost saving schemes - Onetel - 0870 numbers will cost you 8 pence a minute at all times, that is eight. not 7.91 or 7.51 or 3.5.

They decline to give you cost of 0871, normally £6.00 an hour.

You win some you lose some, DO NOT DIAL an number starting 087 .

J

There is a way to defeat Onetel's cost of 0870 calls. If you have signed up to call automatically (carrier pre-selection) via Onetel, but still pay your line rental to BT, you can 'revert' to BT for a specific call by dialling the prefix 1280 before the call. This will route the call via BT and so you will be charged by BT - not Onetel. This means you can at least take advantage (if that is the right term!  ;) ) of the cheaper rates that BT charges at various times of the day.  I did this all the time when I lived in the UK, and the 0870 charges then appeared on my BT account. Obviously, wherever possible, I chose to make the calls at a time when the cost was the least!

The advantage of this is that BT have their charges regulated - the other telcos don't. It's still an incredible rip-off, but at least it is one way to partially offset the cost.  :)

wrote on Feb 8^th, 2005 at 12:26am:

But did you know that if you sign up for Britains most popular cost saving schemes - Onetel - 0870 numbers will cost you 8 pence a minute at all times, that is eight. not 7.91 or 7.51 or 3.5. They decline to give you cost of 0871, normally £6.00 an hour.

OneTel's rates for 0871 calls are shown on their website.

Thanks for that.

A statement in the Surgery Line is:  NEG Surgery Line™ is completely self-financing!

Well it is not is it?

Shouldn't that read:  NEG Surgery Line™ is completely patient financed!

J

There was a further good item on today's BBC Radio 4 You & Yours program (March 31st).

 www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/shows/rpms/radio4/youandyours_thu.ram

It starts at 8 minutes 40 seconds and features the MP Paul Tyler plus another 0870 campaigner who had drawn their attention to Ofcom's use of an 0845 contact phone number in every current BT phone book.  Unfortunately John Waite stupidly called this the Yellow Pages even though both the program producer, Dan Saladino and the reporter, Melanie Abbott knew perfectly well it was The Phone Book.

Ofcom was allowed to get away with the 0845 BT Phone Book "Local Call Rate" contact number outrage by You & Yours on the basis that it was just a mistake but strange then that this mistake has still not been corrected by BT over 9 months after Ofcom first claimed to have tried to tell them to do so.

If this is how much notice BT generally takes of requests from Ofcom for action then what hope is there of Ofcom being able to regulate anything else?!

The link to the BT web site (see reply #1 and #5 in “Premium Rate Definition” ) shows that BT define both 0870 and 0845  as “Premium Rate Special Numbers”.  Surprisingly, this conflicts with the statement in the Phone Book about 0845 being “local call rate”.

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 1:27pm:

The link to the BT web site (see reply #1 and #5 in “Premium Rate Definition” ) shows that BT define both 0870 and 0845  as “Premium Rate Special Numbers”.  Surprisingly, this conflicts with the statement in the Phone Book about 0845 being “local call rate”.

Elsewhere in the initial pages of all current BT Phone Books 0845 and 0870 number codes are shown correctly under a heading that makes it clear they are Premium Rate but then against the entries in the information section for Ofcom, The Samaritans and a few other useful organisations 0845 numbers are quoted alongside the words "local call rate"

BT Phone Book complaints have now told me they have discussed my complaint with Ofcom with the Office of the Telecommunications Ombudsman (Otelo) but they don't tell me what they plan to do about the problem.

Another thing that needs to be looked at is the NHS use of 0845 numbers to contact the out of ours GP service.In my part of the world Dorset and Southampton you have to call 0845 no,s to speak to a doctor.Yet there is no need to do this as the majority of people are only a local call away.Dorset Police thought about having a non emergency 0845 no,but decided to offer normal landline no 222222 with access from 01202 and 01305 dialling codes.Much more sensible.Come to think why do Hampshire and Sussex Police use 0845 access numbers perhaps they are getting a cut of the revenue generated.

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 2:12pm:

Come to think why do Hampshire and Sussex Police use 0845 access numbers perhaps they are getting a cut of the revenue generated.

Surrey Police also now have a totally faceless call centre on 0845 which answers the calls quickly but which everyone hates because the staff have no local area knowledge.

The reason they did it of course was because they got the call centre phone equipment and ongoing maintenance cheaper because of the subsidy from the members of the public calling them.  Nominally they don't get the money directly but as they pay less for the equipment and the phone system maintenance in practice they do get the cash.

Does anyone know the costs of such equipment and maintenance, if purchased on its own?  (ie without a cross-subsidy from 084/087 revenue)

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 2:40pm:

Does anyone know the costs of such equipment and maintenance, if purchased on its own?  (ie without a cross-subsidy from 084/087 revenue)

It costs a lot less than people like Surrey Police get persuaded that it is worth by the company who sells it.  But as they think they are getting it free and it is only the poor old public who pays the bill through the 0845 calls they don't ask too many questions.

If a journalist were able to get some gormless PC purchasing officer up for interview......

"So officer - you've saved Surrey Constabulary a one-off couple of hundred £££ on equipment - but do you realise the general public now has to pay £X thousand every year in premium rate costs as a result?"

Multiply by 300 doctors' surgeries, add in all the other state bodies, and the bill would be a big number, hopefully enough to get some big cheeses to take notice.

Trouble is we don't yet know the savings and extra cost numbers to use to make the case...

Hi Graham

Send a request for the information under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:43pm:

Hi Graham Send a request for the information under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

::)Doh!!! I should have thought of that.

Done now - hope I haven't sped through too many revenue cameras recently though...

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 6:41pm:

Done now - hope I haven't sped through too many revenue cameras recently though...

They only have 2 weeks to prosecute you for any GATSO camera offence so not much to worry about there.

But who have you asked for the information from?  Surrey Police?

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 7:15pm:

But who have you asked for the information from?  Surrey Police?

I tried Herts police, due to where I live. They have a similar 0845 set-up.

I used kk's handy FOI request templateand then added a few extras about the kit and maintenance

I'm rather disappointed that nobody has commented on the You & Yours 0870 item on Radio 4 yesterday.

The link to it can be found at the top of this Page (Page 4).

The item yesterday was particularly good as You & Yours have finally taken on board that 0845 is almost as bad as 0870 and that the price difference of calling these numbers is huge for anyone on an inclusive calling plan like BT Option 3.  They also exposed Ofcom for the useless timewasters they are by still having their own 0845 number in every BT phonebook and also refusing to permanently close down their 0845 number.

Quote:

I'm rather disappointed that nobody has commented on the You & Yours 0870 item on Radio 4 yesterday.

Ahhh! The power of the Internet - sitting and listening to 'You and Yours' in North Carolina!

I thought the segment on NGNs was very good - but there was one exchange that concerned me. The announcer stated that '...the practice of using premium rate numbers to doctor's surgeries had now been stopped...' and the MP, Paul Tyler agreed. Well, as all readers to this site know, that is simply not true. All that has happened is that the 0870 numbers have been transferred to 0844 - and it would appear that there is no mechanism in place to stop a surgery practice signing up for such a system in the future, as long as they use 0844. Shouldn't someone be writing to Paul Tyler AND 'You and Yours' to point out the error? Otherwise, It will simply be pushed off the radar...... :(

wrote on Apr 1^st, 2005 at 4:40pm:

I thought the segment on NGNs was very good - but there was one exchange that concerned me. The announcer stated that '...the practice of using premium rate numbers to doctor's surgeries had now been stopped...' and the MP, Paul Tyler agreed. Well, as all readers to this site know, that is simply not true. All that has happened is that the 0870 numbers have been transferred to 0844 - and it would appear that there is no mechanism in place to stop a surgery practice signing up for such a system in the future, as long as they use 0844. Shouldn't someone be writing to Paul Tyler AND 'You and Yours' to point out the error? Otherwise, It will simply be pushed off the radar...... :(

Yes I agree it was wrong that Paul Tyler settled for the nonsense that the change to 0844 by the doctors was any sort of improvement.  Especially as doctors surgeries are open on Saturday and people have to call them then at 5p per minute on 0844 from a BT home landline compared to only 1.5p per minute on 0870!

I don't know what Mr Tyler's excuse is as I emailed both him and Howare Stoate MP previously to point out that it cost 13p per minute to call an 0844 number from a phonebox at all times compared to 2p per minute for other geographic uk numbers and 11p per minute for 0845 and 0870.

I suggested you all email tylerp@parliament.uk to express your disquiet on the matter.  He does read his email. I have been getting receipts for them a day or two after sending.

By the way the BBC have plans to charge you for the privilege of listening to You & Yours in North Carolina in due course.  Enjoy it for free while it lasts!

Hi Mikeinnc

Rest assured Mike, I send a detailed letter re the 0844 scam to:
Paul Tyler PM, BBC You and Yours (2 reporters and the producer), The Department of Health, Head of Primary Care at DH, my own MP, the Minister of Health, and The Daily Mail and Telegraph reporters who had previous articles on the subject.  Plus a few others.  

No reply as yet.

wrote on Apr 1^st, 2005 at 4:58pm:

Hi Mikeinnc Rest assured Mike, I send a detailed letter re the 0844 scam to: Paul Tyler PM, BBC You and Yours (2 reporters and the producer), The Department of Health, Head of Primary Care at DH, my own MP, the Minister of Health, and The Daily Mail and Telegraph reporters who had previous articles on the subject.  Plus a few others.   No reply as yet.

They know perfectly well what is going on.

But it suits their political agendas (especially that of Howard Stoate) to claim the change to 0844 as some kind of victory.

But what hope is there that these people will get the message when Matt Peacock of Ofcom defends Ofcom's retention of its 0845 number for its contact centre on the basis that people expect to use such numbers for customer service lines.

wrote on Apr 1^st, 2005 at 2:38pm:

I'm rather disappointed that nobody has commented on the You & Yours 0870 item on Radio 4 yesterday.

Thought I had, last night? It is on the forum.

juby

wrote on Apr 1^st, 2005 at 7:35pm:

Thought I had, last night? It is on the forum. juby

Not in this thread though??

I posted it on what I thought was the most appropriate thread - You & Yours No 14 - not because I started it, I had forgotten that, but because they have worked tirelessly on our behalf from the outset.

I am rather fed up with people on this forum knocking the programme just because they have an (occasional) 0870 number. We all know, if we follow these forums, that it is not the producers of the show who decided that.

With our help they have been instrumental in finally killing this scam, if the programme yesterday did not do it, it certainly threw enough sh1t at the fan to finally tip the balance.

Credit where credit is due, and yes I recorded the whole programme.

Have you noticed the weekend advertising pages recently? Last Saturday there was not one 087X number to be seen in the Daily Telegraph bargain basement page. The very first time.

0870 is not our problem now, it is everybody elses. Our job is now to hit the rest of the NGNs.

Sorry I didn't post it in the right thread, no hard feelings?

juby

Hi juby / NGM

I may be guilty for dragging the other thread off down a rather technical avenue by accident.  I should have stuck to a simple posting about the program, and its bold statement of support for your work, rather than moving excitedly off into "what next from here" mode!


wrote on Apr 1^st, 2005 at 9:10pm:

With our help they have been instrumental in finally killing this scam, if the programme yesterday did not do it, it certainly threw enough sh1t at the fan to finally tip the balance.

I hope you are right. However, I fear reports of the death of these numbers are still somewhat premature, despite the well targeted sh1t throwing by you guys on here, by You and Yours and by their program yesterday in particular.

It's such a pernicious issue - most people still shrug their shoulders and ask "so what?" when you try to explain it briefly - that continued explanation, demonstration and pressure is needed to get it changed.

OFCOM has repeatedly proved inept at promoting competition, so now, given a perfect excuse to hide and do nothing behind their "light touch regulation" line, they will only alter the rules if their position becomes
1. utterly untenable in logic, and
2. openly ridiculed at large.

no. 1 was achieved way back when 0990 was launched!! But now you are getting there on no. 2


Quote:

Our job is now to hit the rest of the NGNs.

Couldn't agree more - the danger right now is that NEG will get away with switching their scam to 0844, 0871 will sail expensively under OFCOM's radar, and we'll be almost back to square one.

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 1:32am:

Couldn't agree more - the danger right now is that NEG will get away with switching their scam to 0844, 0871 will sail expensively under OFCOM's radar, and we'll be almost back to square one.

Graham,

I agree with you especially about the possible expensive 0871 threat in the event that 0870 is banned.  And let us not forget that the most ruthless scamsters like Easyjet and TopUpTv have already not been afraid to tread that route whilst telling their dimwitted call centre staff that it is only the BT National Rate or even the BT Local Rate.  And because the number does not begin 09 nobody can touch them or stop them from doing this, at least not without a very expensive private prosecution under one of the consumer trading acts.

There must be a reason why BT wants to ban revenue share on 0870 but retain it on 0871 and of course their other own longstanding con in allowing 0844 and 0845 to be used for both perfectly legitimate PAYG dial up internet traffic and completely illegitimate voice traffic misleadingly claiming to be at the BT Local Rate has further muddied the waters in the way that BT clearly intended all the way along.  And Ofcom pretend they are sorry now because their (or more especially OFCOM's) longstanding deliberate connivance with the telecoms companies over this issue has finally been rumbled but the fact that they ever set up an 0845 number for their Contact Centre and still insist, even now, on retaining that number surely says it all.

By the way what brings you to the saynoto0870.com web forum so late in the day when it seems clear that you are pretty knowledgeable on these issues.

Thanks for the link NGMan (your reply #45).

Apart from not highlighting the “new improved 0844 scam” that replaced the “0870 scam” together with the totally unjustified payment of £500 taxpayers money to doctors; I thought that the You and Yours program, on 31 March, was brilliant.

On a technical point: The link only lasts for as long as the BBC website holds the sound file.  Does anyone know how to download and save a permanent record of the program in the form of a computer file that will last and outlive the link.

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 1:54pm:

(your reply #45). On a technical point: The link only lasts for as long as the BBC website holds the sound file.  Does anyone know how to download and save a permanent record of the program in the form of a computer file that will last and outlive the link.

I have just called BBC Information (more like BBC Disinformation) at the call centre in Belfast run on their behalf by Capita Moneybags 0870 Ltd.  Fortunately I was on this occasion able to call via the geographic BBC Belfast number that I recently added to this website.

In response to my query as to why this program was not available as an MP3 download for use on my MP3 player etc, as promoted regularly by BBC Radio 4, the young lady concerned did not know why and after keeping me on hold for 3 minutes (although on this occasion not at additional cost to my bank account) said she thought "it probably had something to do with copyright" (this was said very agressively in the strongest and least educated possible form of regional Belfast accent).

I said that this seemed odd since Your & Yours was clearly one of the BBC's own shows and not outsourced so there should be no copyright issues involved here .  I then asked to be put through to a supervisor but the young lady refused and said I had to put my complaint in writing by letter (a means of communication I for some reason rarely use these days).  I not unnaturally refused to do this knowing it would be a total waste of time.

I then called back the geographic BBC Belfast switchboard number and said I wanted to make a complaint about the Capita BBC Information call centre and was on this occasion connected to a lady with a much more educated voice in a management capacity at BBC Information in Glasgow (still a Capita worker though).  She also did not know the answer to my question but seemed much more sympathethic to my point and promised to look into it and to call me back.

This only clearly confirms one point to me which is that BBC Information never ever does what it says on the tin which should be to answer all normal likely standard questions and comments from members of the general public about the BBC's products and services.  And up until my recent addition to the www.saynoto0870.com database it also limited accessibility to this largely useless service through call pricing, especially for overseas listeners on the internet.

I think Dave or DaveM has a way to extract these RAM broadcasts for posterity and containing just the bit of the program that you want but I was unfortunately unable to get the thing outside the confines of Real Audio Player which is an almost totally hopeless and inflexible product.  In fact I would go so far as to say that Real Audio and Adobe Acrobat must surely be natural blood brothers in that respect!

Sorry to harp on about this but I find it annoying that in this day and age the only way to keep the broadcast for posterity is to record it live at the time using either non BBC software or an old fashioned tape recorder.

Do not despair, NGM. There is perfectly simple way to get rid of your tape recorder, peice of string or whatever. You can record all you want (But I did not tell you), see http://www.supermp3recorder.com/index.htm
Cost you about £16 but it is the simplest way to do it.

Not ony will you be able to record all the You & yours progs, but also everything you want from "Listen Again"

Of course if you record live you do not need this.

There are free progs. out there but this is the nicest presentation.

juby

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 9:16pm:

There are free progs. out there but this is the nicest presentation.

Thanks Juby,

I was hoping for a free prog but I suppose that would be Real Player V8 or whatever it is.

It is possible to get rid of REAL player for good, and still listen to BBC Radio and Listen Again.

I don't think that it is suitable for this forum.

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 10:47pm:

It is possible to get rid of REAL player for good, and still listen to BBC Radio and Listen Again.

I suppose the BBC deal with the highly commercial Real Player is like the BBC 0870 deal with Cable & Wireless.

Namely that in return for thrusting their viewers into the hands of a highly exploitative commercial company the Beeb get some kind of huge financial kickback?

Is it possible to get rid of Adobe Acrobat for good too?  Version 6 seems to be its slowest and most useless incarnation yet!

Hi NGMan
Try Adobe Acrobat v7 - download free from the Adobe site.
kk

wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2005 at 9:49am:

Hi NGMan Try Adobe Acrobat v7 - download free from the Adobe site. kk

You mean to say that in Version 7 Adobe have debloatified it and instead concentrated on trying to stop their product freezing up the whole of IE6 quite regularly?

I will believe it when I see it and hang on but isn't it only about 5 minutes since they launched Adobe Version 6?

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 1:54pm:

On a technical point: The link only lasts for as long as the BBC website holds the sound file.  Does anyone know how to download and save a permanent record of the program in the form of a computer file that will last and outlive the link.

I have recorded an extract of the You and Yours program and if anyone is desperate to hear the item again and cannot get the thing to work I could probably make a copy avaiable.  However as of this morning the BBC are still making the whole programme available on the link provided earlier.  

It will be a big file - about 7Mb - so don't rush!

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 9:46am:

I have recorded an extract of the You and Yours program and if anyone is desperate to hear the item again and cannot get the thing to work I could probably make a copy avaiable.  However as of this morning the BBC are still making the whole programme available on the link provided earlier.   It will be a big file - about 7Mb - so don't rush!

What program did you use to record it locally on your machine?  If you tell me what program I should be using that would save me having to trouble you to either email program to me or give me a web or ftp location from where I can download it.  However as I have 2MBps broadband here the size of the file is not really an issue for me.  Of course it will probably only leave you at 256k though....  Its only the small bit of the program about 0870 that I need of course.

Presumaby the ability to save a RAM file broadcast locally is provided in the more expensive versions of Real Audio Player?  I can't understand why Windows Media Player can't be updated to understand this audio file format, unless of course the copyright for this is jealously guarded by Real?

The best way I have found, though not free, is Total Recorder available at Highcriteria.com The Standard Edition is $11.95, about £7.00, and it records directly from your sound card, irrespective of the original format (.mp3, .rm etc). It does save files in .wav format so they can become quite large, but this isn't a problem for most things. HTH. ;)

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 10:59am:

The best way I have found, though not free, is Total Recorder available at Highcriteria.com The Standard Edition is $11.95, about £7.00, and it records directly from your sound card, irrespective of the original format (.mp3, .rm etc). It does save files in .wav format so they can become quite large, but this isn't a problem for most things. HTH. ;)

So if this program extracts it from the sound card output this is only a slight variation frome me being able to record it onto analogue tape or minidisk at the time.

Why do they withhold manipulation of the digital format when its patently obvious that people have been able to do what they want with analogue broadcasts by more primitive means for years & years?

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 10:40am:

What program did you use to record it locally on your machine?

I use a Mac and a programme called Audio HiJack.  I can email it to you direct if you like.

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 3:26pm:

I use a Mac and a programme called Audio HiJack.  I can email it to you direct if you like.

Is there a version for a Windows XP PC?

This thread is going off track now, but I suggest those who want to dump RealOne Player (or whatever it's called) download RealAlternative.  ;)

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 7:49pm:

This thread is going off track now, but I suggest those who want to dump RealOne Player (or whatever it's called) download RealAlternative.  ;)

Thanks Dave for this info.  Does this support actually being able to save the file to your local hard drive?

Presumably yes in view of your previous former posts of edited clips from the Radio 4 progs?

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 8:27pm:

...  Does this support actually being able to save the file to your local hard drive?

No, it just avoids having to have the crapware that comes with RealNetworks' player.


Quote:

Presumably yes in view of your previous former posts of edited clips from the Radio 4 progs?

Sorry, don't understand that. I think it would be a good idea to be able to archive these programmes. I thought that the Beeb would keep them on the website for a long time. I've got links to all programmes (providing that they haven't gone moving everything).

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 8:35pm:

Sorry, don't understand that. I think it would be a good idea to be able to archive these programmes. I thought that the Beeb would keep them on the website for a long time. I've got links to all programmes (providing that they haven't gone moving everything).

Dave,

Your previous .ram links seemed to jump to the right starting point in the program, which is more than I managed (mine was from the beginning).  Unless those links were posted by someone else with more expertise in this area?

As for a You & Yours program archive the BBC only leaves the programs up on its website for a week after which they are overwritten by the next You & Yours Program for that day.  Of course if they made them available in MP3 format as they are doing with some programs it would be easy to download them for posterity.

I do have a recording of the whole hour long version of this program on my Tivo but that is on 1GB of hard disk space as Tivo uses the same data format for Freeview radio channels as for television programs.  However I could in theory get something off the Tivo through the audio out sockets.  I don't have anything to get audio out back onto my PC though.............  I could record it as 1 hour of sound only VHS tape!.............

Looking at Post No 29 from Dec 14th I see that mypinknee is in fact our expert in such matters and that his edited link from that date (to just part of a You & Yours show) still works.

It seems that the BBC do in fact keep the You&Yours  program archives for much longer and they merely remove the links to them from the Radio 4 "Listen Again" home page after a week.

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 9:16pm:

Do not despair, NGM. There is perfectly simple way to get rid of your tape recorder, peice of string or whatever. You can record all you want (But I did not tell you), see http://www.supermp3recorder.com/index.htm Cost you about £16 but it is the simplest way to do it. Not ony will you be able to record all the You & yours progs, but also everything you want from "Listen Again" Where were you all? You heard it here first! Of course if you record live you do not need this. There are free progs. out there but this is the nicest presentation. juby

But I still don't see why I have to pay £16 for this facility when the BBC were supposed to be giving us the MP3 files for free so we will load them up on our MP3 players and listen on the tube.

Its a shame there is no equivalent of Audio Hijack for the PC environment.

Surely the BBC should just ditch Real Audio and cut a deal with someone who lets their customers download the files for nothing.

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 8:54pm:

Dave, Your previous .ram links seemed to jump to the right starting point in the program, which is more than I managed (mine was from the beginning). ...

All the links are from the pages on BBCi. You can either listen to the whole show, or each report individually.


Quote:

As for a You & Yours program archive the BBC only leaves the programs up on its website for a week after which they are overwritten by the next You & Yours Program for that day. ...

The original You and Yours broadcast of 8 November 2004 on 0870 numbers is still there. They've changed the url format, but it used to end in the date in the following format:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/index_yyyymmdd.shtml

Enter in the date of the programme you want to look substituting yyyymmdd with the date. So for example, 13 December 2004 is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/index_20041213.shtml

From there, you can either listen to the whole programme, or each report individually.

All You and Yours reports on 0870 numbers are as follows:

• 8 November 2004
  
• 13 December 2004
  
• 28 January 2005
  
• 17 February 2005
  
• 24 February 2005
  
• 31 March 2005

Thanks Dave for that comprehensive explanation.

Its a pity that their main Listen Again page doesn't explain that the older broadcasts are also accessible in the way that you have so clearly illustrated.

Surely they should let people download the file as MP3s as well if they really want to achieve the listening revolution they claim they are so keen on.

I know im a bit out of date with replying to this, however I work in telecoms and have recently changed an call centres providers 0870 number, this company will not make £33900 evey month rebate!!

this is not a massive bank or high street name either!

wrote on Apr 14^th, 2005 at 2:54pm:

I know im a bit out of date with replying to this, however I work in telecoms and have recently changed an call centres providers 0870 number, this company will not make £33900 evey month rebate!! this is not a massive bank or high street name either!

Is there a typo there Craigyp007?

Did you mean to say, ".... this company will now make £33900 every month rebate!!"

Quote:

I know im a bit out of date with replying to this, however I work in telecoms and have recently changed an call centres providers 0870 number, this company will now make £33900 evey month rebate!!

This should be posted in HUGE letters on the front page of this website!  >:(

No wonder the w**kers at companies like Alliance and Leicester try to kick you off their geographic numbers!

yes sorry, that was a typo error.

This Company is a large solicitors firm and will now make an average of £33,900.00 every month just on incoming calls on their 0870.

I would give a rough guestimate that alliance and leicester would make probably 3 or 4 times this amount per month on one 0870 alone!

:o

Please go to the new thread I have just started regarding a crucial meeting of the BBC Executive Board on Monday April 21st to decide whether or not to switch to geographic call rate 03 numbers for all of the BBC's normal contact telephone numbers for all its programs and all its radio and tv stations.  
 
Your help in emailing members of the BBC Executive Board and BBC Trust to indicate your personal backing for a switch by the BBC to all 03 numbers would be very helpful in persuading the BBC to take the right decision as we do not know whether the BBC Board Members have been advised to choose the 03 option or to choose some other more undesirable alternative such as switching to all 0845 or all 0844 5p per minute phone numbers.  
 
See my new thread on this topic at www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1208458341/0