No one so far seems to have commented on this but it is undoubtedly directly related to 0870 issues in that (a) it directly increases the period each day when people have to pay 7.51p per minute to call an 0870 number and (b) it is yet a further indication of the complete incompetence of Ofcom in managing to control BT who still continue to walk all over them.

So for those of you who are not yet aware of this issue since Thursday 24th February 2005 BT has extended the weekday peak calling period from 8am to 6pm on Monday to Friday to 6am to 6pm Monday to Friday.  This is surely wholly inexplicable since at this time (6am to 8am) most people are either still asleep in bed (for those living near work and working non American hours) or eating their breakfast or on a train or in a car travelling to work.  But what they are not doing between 6am and 8am is making business to business phone calls to other businesses.  If they are making calls it is to friends & relatives.

Obvious questions occur like how did Ofcom allows this or was Ofcom's permission required and if not why not, given that BT has Significant Market Power in the fixed line telecoms market place and also given that the weekday peak calling period has been 8am to 6pm practically since God was a boy (although once upon a time BT/the GPO used to charge more again for calls in the weekday morning period).

How can BT get away with this?  They already have enough scams going like charging normal weekday peak time prices on weekdays that are bank holidays (eg Christmas Day) and charging by call length for 118500 directory enquiry calls thus making it in their interests to train their operators to carry out inefficient searches.

Is Mr Kip Meek at all on the ball at Ofcom or was he simply both kipping and or being meek to BT when they made this proposal.

Where was the Ofcom consultation on this.  Why did no one on this website seem to know about it?

Words fail me.  How can this further BT outrage have been allowed only a few months after Ofcom let them get away with abolishing Standard Line Rental and increasing the quarterly line rental by £9.70 for anyone routing most, but not all, of their calls away from BT.  Do Ofcom vaguely even have a clue what they are doing?

What next?  Presumably next 6pm to 8pm will become part of the weekday peak (that would actually be more justifiable than 6am to 8am given the typical opening hours of shops) and then after that 8pm to 10pm and then 10pm to midnight.  Perhaps Saturday mornings can be classified into the weekday peak period as well by BT.  That would increase 0870 calling costs on Saturday from 1.5p per minute to 7.51p.

What do other people think?  I can't believe that no one else on here who isn't already fuming about this even though I know that most of us do not use BT to make our calls.  But despite this it is obvious that say TalkTalk and Onetel will follow suit so that in due course our own free offpeak calls period will be reduced.

What do the rest of you think?  Am I just a voice in the wilderness on all this?

NGM

Flattery will get you everwhere and apologies accepted.

The fact is that Ofcom are pretty useless, as indeed are all the "Ofquangos" of this goverment.

You will not get anywhere by knocking them because they are so unbelievably thick skinned that anything we say or do will fall on deaf ears.

How about a new tactic, I have heard a lot about 18866 just recently, I had never heard of it till I came to this forum.

Why don't we give the maximum exposure to them?

My website is only visited by around 30 people a day but I am sure that if we pooled resources we could make some sort of impact?

In the meantime I need to know some more about them?

J

wrote on Feb 28^th, 2005 at 10:13pm:

NGM How about a new tactic, I have heard a lot about 18866 just recently, I had never heard of it till I came to this forum. Why don't we give the maximum exposure to them? My website is only visited by around 30 people a day but I am sure that if we pooled resources we could make some sort of impact? In the meantime I need to know some more about them?

All there is to be known about them is as follows:-

Their website:-

www.call18866.co.uk

And my recent post about them in the Cheap Call Providers section of this forum, which has so far generated no responses:-

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=cheapcalls;action=display;num=1109522550

Other than that all we know about them is that they only charge 1p at all times to connect an 01 or 02 geographic call, no matter how long, and have pretty cheap rates of 2p per minute to call major European countries and the USA.  They are no good for 0870 and 0845 calls where they charge more than BT.

But I understand that TalkTalk and Onetel are now offering free 01 and 02 calls in the offpeak (evening and weekend) if you take one of their CPS calling services.  So you will only want to use 18866 from Monday to Friday daytime.  But unless you make more than 1000 Monday to Friday daytime 01 or 02 calls a month then its bound to be cheaper to use them than anything like BT Option 3 or TalkTalk's Talk 3 which charge you a set amount of £10 or more a month, regardless of whether or not you actually manage to make 1000 01 or 02 calls.

But for reasons best known to them call18866 are a small business and only want to grow slowly.  This seems to be because it is riding on the back of spare capacity in an existing medium sized telecoms business.

I have been with them for over a year though and entirely happy with generally very reliable, very cheap and good call quality.  Also totally accurate billing where call charges are available on their website a few seconds after you complete the call.

I hope this helps

From what I can see as a consumer, BT are gradually pushing up the price of telecoms. The idea that competition reduces prices has gone out of the window.

I think that it would interesting for a programme like Panarama to investigate not only 0870, but the wider issue of what's actually happened in the telecoms industry.

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 2:05pm:

From what I can see as a consumer, BT are gradually pushing up the price of telecoms. The idea that competition reduces prices has gone out of the window.

Overall the cost of geographic uk calls has gone through the floor but BT has tried to recoup nearly all of this by switching 30 to 40% of day time calls on to non geographic 084x/087x

And of course there is the small matter of the BT line rental.  That's £31.50 per quarter (if you use DD) plus £10.50 for 2 or more network services (most of us have Caller Display and Call Waiting at least) = £42 x 4 quarters = £168 just to have that old thin copper wire connected.  That's before it gets a broadband connection for at least another £15 a month on top.  Of which BT Wholesale again receive the lion's share unless you are in an LLU area.

Bearing in mind just how low standing charges are for something like metered water (£10 for each 6 month period) the BT line rental is little short of a national disgrace, especially as they block all competition on this by selling wholesale line rental to their rivals at almost the same price as the retail price to their own customers.

I personally would welcome the bankruptcy of BT and its replacement with a gas or electricity type competition situation.  Unfortunately BT still does not even begin to comprehend the meaning of the words "free market" or "competition"  But then so far as I can tell nor does Ofcom.  It only understands "out of touch" (aka "light touch")

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 2:29pm:

Overall the cost of geographic uk calls has gone through the floor but BT has tried to recoup nearly all of this by switching 30 to 40% of day time calls on to non geographic 084x/087x

BT Also recoup some of this by providing BT 1571 for 'free' to the subscriber and then charge (minimum charge) the caller even when they don't want to leave a message! Of course the mobile providers have been doing this for years.

Then, with the latest BT Together it costs 0.5p more! Ofcourse, as I'm sure you will quickly state, NGM, people on 18866 will pay only 1p. Whilst this is true:-
1. The majority of people are making calls with BT.
2. People on 18866 are still paying 1p more than if the call hadn't been answered.

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 2:39pm:

BT Also recoup some of this by providing BT 1571 for 'free' to the subscriber and then charge (minimum charge) the caller even when they don't want to leave a message! Of course the mobile providers have been doing this for years.

Well spotted Dave.  I am normally fully on top of all of BT's finest ripoffs but I must confess that even I missed this "wolf dressed up in sheep's clothing".

I did actually have 1571 on this line before BT were finally gracious enough to get round to enabling this prosperous rural Surrey exchange with 1900 lines, only 15 miles south of the M25 for broadband, at the start of June last year.  But I mainly only used 1571 to intercept calls when I was on the internet and my anwerphone took the calls if I was out (answered after fewer rings than BT 1571).  

I have now had 1571 disabled though as I couldn't get calls off it remotely when I was away, whereas I can with my digital answerphone.  And sometimes I would also manually turn off my digital answerphone so as to receive a "free" (part of the Network services ripoff) morning reminder alarm call.  I could still turn on my digital answer machine remotely by ringing 20 times in those circumstances but not if 1571 answered after 7 rings.

But if BT is quite as cunning as you say then surely they would have turned on 1571 by default and only provided a customer option to turn it off.  Or is this one instance where Kip Meek and his bros at Ofcom were actually awake and not out on the town for another slap up lunch (as they clearly must have been over the 6am to 8am peak period scam)?

What do you think BT's main motivation has been on the 6am to 8am change to peak period?  I can't believe its worth  much money in relation to the potential wrath incurred so I can only believe its a toe in the water to see if Ofcom or Parliament/Ministers try and stop them.  And as they haven't I bet BT will be back fairly soon for the far more lucrative extension in peak hours from 6pm to 8pm.  They will justify this on the basis that lots of shops are still open at this time.  And don't forget that doesn't just turn 5.5p for the call into 3p per minute but it also shoves up the 0870 rate from 3.75p per minute to 7.5p.

The whole telecoms business is built on making competition incomprehensible for the consumer like the whole 118 diretcory enquiries scam that our useless and incompetent friends at Ofcom agreed to (how can anyone be allowed to charge customers on other than a per number found basis).

To get proper competition we need all revenue share 08 and 09 calls abolished (and I do mean incuding 0800 which is a ripoff for those receiving the calls), a common set of peak and off peak hours for all telecoms cos, only one call price tariff band per foreign country (no mobile surcharge) and then just competition on these basic prices and line rental charges.  So far as I can tell BT has also invented the complex call charges situation to take some of the heat off competition in the line rental price?

Just my two penny worth.

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 3:06pm:

To get proper competition we need all revenue share 08 and 09 calls abolished (and I do mean incuding 0800 which is a ripoff for those receiving the calls), ....

Of course, what is the point in 070 numbers, some of which cost up to 47.5p/min at all times! They are presumably to allow them to be pointed at a mobile in the same way the current 084 and 087 numbers are to a geographical number. But it is the telco providing the number which benefits.

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 4:21pm:

Of course, what is the point in 070 numbers, some of which cost up to 47.5p/min at all times! They are presumably to allow them to be pointed at a mobile in the same way the current 084 and 087 numbers are to a geographical number. But it is the telco providing the number which benefits.

Dave,

Let me clarify.  All revenue sharing numbers should be banned regardless of the numeric prefix code.

It would however be useful to retain a freephone 0800 facility, providing that the companies receiving the calls only have to pay the usual geographic rate charged by their telecoms supplier and not a premium NGN rate (as is presently the case).

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 3:06pm:

To get proper competition we need all revenue share 08 and 09 calls abolished (and I do mean incuding 0800 which is a ripoff for those receiving the calls), a common set of peak and off peak hours for all telecoms cos, only one call price tariff band per foreign country (no mobile surcharge) and then just competition on these basic prices and line rental charges.

I don't agree with abolishing 0800 numbers. If a company wants to provide this facility for their customers, it's most welcome (it makes it slightly less annoying when you end up held in a queue). The energy company I use has an 0800 number, as does my credit card company. Some providers only charge 2p/min for 0800 numbers - less than the cost of BT daytime calls.

I don't agree with common on/off peak hours, international call costs etc. either. In a market with true competition, providers should be able to call what they like. The problem with 0870 numbers is companies can't include them in any special inclusive deals as they have to provide the shared revenue over which they have no control.

If people object to BT's new definition of "peak" hours, perhaps now is the time to change to a provider with a more favourable definition!

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 4:57pm:

I don't agree with common on/off peak hours, international call costs etc. either. In a market with true competition, providers should be able to call what they like

That was the Ofcom argument with allowing a charging free for all (by connection, by length of call or a mixture of the two) on 118 directory services but you only have to look at the actual outcome to see that the actual competition should only have been on the cost per actual number looked up.  Allowing the directory enquiry companies to earn more money from their own inefficiency is just plain wrong.  The same principle as with 084x and 087x.

Perhaps there does have to be a different international rate for mobile compared to fixed line calls for each country but that other rate had better be as prominently stated as the fixed line calling rate.

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 4:51pm:

Dave, Let me clarify.  All revenue sharing numbers should be banned regardless of the numeric prefix code.

I don't see the problem withe idea of having 'premium' numbers, providing we have:

• All revenue sharing numbers confined to one clear prefix: 09.
  
• All premium service providers must show pricing information for their service. They don't have to at the moment according to the ICSTIS guidlines.
  
• Pricing is shown as "premium plus a standard network charge", as is the case with premium text messages. That way the pricing information will apply to all providers and not just from a BT line. It will also mean that providers can't just charge far more than the BT price.
  
• Providers bar premium calls by default, thus it is on an opt-in basis. This would stop service providers taking advantage of those who may not be aware of the cost implications, particularly the elderly.

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2005 at 5:13pm:

I don't see the problem withe idea of having 'premium' numbers, providing we have

Dave,

In theory I agree with you and at the time of my Ofcom submission on NTS I was minded your way regarding 09 numbers.

But unless Ofcom/ICSTIS changes the current 09 payments system so that companies breaching TPS rules and operating from overseas cannot use them then in practice they seem to be a charter for organised crime.  And surely anyone who wants an adult service is going to get far better value for money looking for it on the internet?  I mean £90 per hour or whatever for a virtual voice sex service - its a bit pricey isn't it?  I know that £90 an hour for a lawyer's advice would of course be a bargain.

The problem here comes from the fact that the telephone bill payer can't set up a PIN code number that stops other members of his/her household dialling these 09 numbers without his/her permission.  The same thing applies to the scam internet diallers.  I have always managed to avoid these allegedly self installing and I bet that if you go into it the person who says yes to allowing them is nearly always some spotty faced teenage member of the household, who is not the billpayer.

So 09 numbers could be ok if there were strong controls that meant they only happened with the bill payers specific agreement and if there is also a 30 day delay in payment transfers from the uk TCP to the actual service provider, thus stopping the nuisance call prizeline scams operating from overseas.

Just note to say thanks for the info. NGM.

Was away yesterday.

My wife has an account with OneTel, totally useless for 0870, but it saves her a fortune nevertheless.

They are a very good company to deal with and Directory Enq. is free.

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2005 at 1:05pm:

My wife has an account with OneTel, totally useless for 0870, but it saves her a fortune nevertheless. They are a very good company to deal with and Directory Enq. is free.

Juby,

For cheap 0870 calls www.3utelecom.co.uk are the people who you need to register with.  They only charge 2p per minute - in the weekday peak - it just makes another indirect prefix number available on your line, that you can dial for these numbers.

They somehow seem to have found a way to do it from their German base by no doubt routing over voip and then back through conventional telephony from a country somewhere in the world where uk 0870 numbers aren't split out for charging separately from other uk numbers.

Dear Non Geo Man,

I feel I must be missing something here. Please put me right !

When I read your post about that company 3u Telecom I was a bit taken aback. My little (sozzled) brain said to itself : Well isn't that the answer. All we(or they) do is advertise a service provider such as 3utelecom and ALL of the captive Joe's (Joe Public) can merely register with them and place ALL calls to 0870 numbers through them. Simple What ? Logically the inevitable result would be that for example the DVLC would lose it's £1.2 billion 'profit'  etc etc .

Please do put me right. I know this is too simple. I did actually email 3utelecom and they confirmed that although they are unable to offer connection to 0845 numbers (Why ?) the cost of calls to 0870 numbers was (as you said) 2p per min peak time and 1p per minute off peak time.

Look Old Non Geo. I admit to being a bit of an old sceptic and an anti authoritarian 'sod' but isn't this extremely important information ? Aren't we all (mostly )here to stop the advance of greedy 0870 users. Don't we feel that we are helpless against a monopoly position supported by a useless jobsworth group of civil servants known as OFCOM ?

PLEASE PUT ME RIGHT I WON'T SLEEP TONIGHT. Surely if some 'little' set-up called 3utelecom can bypass the money making system then that is the end of the money making system ?

Come on Non Geo. Knock me down (I probably deserve it).

You obviously KNOW what you are emailing about. Please explain. Can't we see the wood for the trees or do we just enjoy the chase ? (bit like foxhunting really..)

Lavillegour

ps I felt when typing this that it should really become a new thread because it does SEEM to be the answer! A bit unworldly Eh ?

Sorry, it's not the answer for me.

I don't want to pay 2p (or 1p) per minute for my calls, I want to continue paying 1p per call.  That is what I pay at the moment (on 18866) to call any UK 01 or 02 number.

That is why I want all those using 0844, 0845, 0870 and 0871 numbers to be forced to revert to using or disclosing their 01 or 02 numbers as well.

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2005 at 9:08pm:

I want to continue paying 1p per call.

Please be more specific, are you paying one penny a minute for 0870 calls?

If so who with?

Pud, Forgive me but .......

It's that sort of extreme position that'll get us nowhere at all !

It is not an injustice to pay a reasonable amount for phone calls.

1 pence per minute for ALL calls is certainly unrealistic.

If you shoot for the moon and miss you'll get the stars -but not reasonable and acceptable prices.

Keep extremism out .Go for a reasonable consensus.. You are unlikely to win with too cheapskate an attitude !

lavillegour

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2005 at 9:25pm:

Please be more specific, are you paying one penny a minute for 0870 calls? If so who with?

No he is obviously only paying 1p per call with call18866 whenever he can to call a geographic number wherever possible and so avoids calling the 0870 numbers.  But he still has to pay 2p per minute to 3U for 0870 that is if he can actually get 3U to connect his 0870 calls reliably (something that is rather in doubt here although I have no personal experience) and at least 7p per minute with any other uk call carrier.

His point is that if we had a geographic number for everything we wouldn't need to try to route them with 3U because we could then use 18866 or an all inclusive calling plan like BT Option 3 for all uk fixed line calls.

But for instance BBC Information and BBC Reception Advice in BELLFAAAAAAST (as the Capita staff with the very uneducated and highly regional broad local accents like to pronounce it) cannot be contacted on a geographic number because the geographic numbers are apparently held in a safe on the BBC's behalf at Fort Knox ;D (Mr Ian Stuart, Capita's IT manager who does probably actually know the geographic numbers also seems unable to disclose them to us on pain of death or at least the certainty of summary and instant dismissal from his job with no compensation).  But who knows may be someone can now prize the geographic numbers for BBC Information (more like BBC Haven't Got A Clue in my experience) out of the BBC main board under the Freedom of Information Act?

Alternatively why not cut out the BBC Information 0870 type nonsense altogether and simply get the names of their main executive staff off the BBC website and then email them at firstname.surname@bbc.co.uk  A read receipt request will also confirm that the emails are then being read by the well paid and skilled labour in London with some actual influence on the BBC's long term policy direction?

The problem with 3UTelecom is that they want a signature posted to them and want to send manual bills to me with no direct debit facility.  This is because they are a cautious old bunch of Germans who have not yet caught up with 21st century banking methods.

And since I don't call more than a handfull of 0870s a month it just isn't worth it for me as I simply don't have monthly billing relationshis with people who don't do direct debit.  I am away from home for a while quite often and the consequences in penalty charges for late bill payment will undoubtedly more than offset any so called "saving" on 0870 calls that might be made with them.

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2005 at 8:37pm:

Dear Non Geo Man, I feel I must be missing something here. Please put me right ! When I read your post about that company 3u Telecom I was a bit taken aback. My little (sozzled) brain said to itself : Well isn't that the answer.

Dear Lavillegour,

It would of course be the answer, more or less (other than for those who even begrudge paying 1p a minute less for 0870 calls than the BT Option 1 national daytime rate or of course those on BT Option 3 and equivalent "all inclusive"?! uk calls packages) except for a few salient points about 3U.

Firstly they are extremely small beer here and their uk telephone number normally leads to an answerphone with a promise someone will call you back.  You then get a call back from their many times larger head office in Germany from a German who speaks almost perfect idiomatic English (not Indian Call Centre no speaka da English).

But then in answer to my phoned question as to why I couldn't I sign up on line with them like 18866 the answer is sorry we don't do that facility and we need you to print out a form and sign it and fax it to us.  Also we need a copy of your latest BT bill faxed to us to prove you are who you are say you are (you will note the use of the ancient dictionary word fax here a normally almost exitinct species of activity these days but something that I'm afraid is still de rigour for fusty old Germanic 3U).  So they want your signature and  they want a copy of your BT bill for a few lousy pounds a month of phone calls whose cost price to them is almost nil.  I mean do they actually want all this to commit identity fraud or something?

Then the next blow is the news that there is no direct debit facility.  They want to send you a bill and for you to send them a cheque by post with your own stamp.   I mean have we entered a time warp here and returned to 1979 or something.   On complaining they think that you could possibly set up a manual ebanking payment facility and then remember to go and pay them monthly by the due date.  Of course as they are totally paper oriented perhaps the electronic payment will probably simply disappear down a German ebanking blackhole and they will send you late payment extra fees for £25 or whatever.  May be that is how they can afford to offer 0870 calls for a nominal 2p per minute - kowing that they will be able to fine almost all their customers for late payment.

I don't think that any of the above is probably really true and more likely the Germans are still 8 years behind re ebanking and also its probably actually the case that either the 0870 calls are costing them 5.5p a minute but as they have so few uk customers they haven't yet worked it out or it is a loss leader to get new customers or possibly they really have found a way to bypass the 5.5p termination charge they should have to pay for 0870 calls in the weekday daytime (possibly by routing the call to say Pitcairn Island by VOIP and then back by telephony).

So in short give it a go if you feel its worth the pain and let me know how many 0870 calls connect and how the billing situation goes.  But for me and most people here this is sadly why 3u are not the answer.

I agree. I attempted the 3U process to register and gave up!

When I read your post about that company 3u Telecom I was a bit taken aback. My little (sozzled) brain said to itself : Well isn't that the answer. All we(or they) do is advertise a service provider such as 3utelecom and ALL of the captive Joe's (Joe Public) can merely register with them and place ALL calls to 0870 numbers through them. Simple What ? Logically the inevitable result would be that for example the DVLC would lose it's £1.2 billion 'profit'  etc etc .


I don't think companies using 0870 will lose their revenue, if you call them via 3utelecom.

What is more likely the case, is that as mentioned by someone else, 0870 is a loss leader, but such a small part of their business, that they haven't bothered to charge more yet.

It is possibly quite feasable to get your own 0870 number paying 3p per minute, 2 phone lines, one of which is signed up to 3u.  Phone yourself on your 0870 number, and get 3p per minute, which would equate to 60p per hour for the time you want to call yourself.  Those that work 9-5 can do it when they leave for work, and hang up when they return!!

I work nights, and such a system would be just as efficient as my current system of unplugging the phone when I get home from work so I can sleep!!

Just remember, a few years ago mobile phone companies still allowed inclusive minutes to call 0870 numbers, and of course until recently BT payphones, but when enough people took advantage of this loss leader, the mobile phone companies had to think again.

Anyway, back to the original subject of this post.  Although it won't affect too many people starting the day at 6am, instead of 8am, if not enough people kick up a stink about this, then the next step is to start the evening at 8pm!!

This would be far worse, as many people wait till 6pm to phone friends and family in the evening using off peak call packages, and sometimes get in touch with call centres who stay open till 8pm!!

Also, do 0870 providers now pay their clients the daytime rate for 6am-8am use.  If not, do the providers themselves get this extra revenue to pass on or keep.  If they don't then BT make alot more on those people wanting to phone call centres just before setting off to work!!

wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2005 at 5:05pm:

Also, do 0870 providers now pay their clients the daytime rate for 6am-8am use.  If not, do the providers themselves get this extra revenue to pass on or keep.  If they don't then BT make alot more on those people wanting to phone call centres just before setting off to work!!

Good point, and this would be one reason why all (originating) providers must (or in practice will) have the same peak/off-peak time bands. Another point to the telcos.

Yet another change made in front of Ofcom's eyes.  ::)

wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2005 at 5:05pm:

Just remember, a few years ago mobile phone companies still allowed inclusive minutes to call 0870 numbers, and of course until recently BT payphones, but when enough people took advantage of this loss leader, the mobile phone companies had to think again.

I think the real reason is that the price of mobile calls has fallen past the point where they could fund 0870 calls. 6 years ago 25p per minute was common on contracts. But it's not impossible now - you have to get a bit more info. Look up http://www.simply-fone.com

Shiggaddi has a good point. Once this wedge starts the next thing if they get away with the first extension will be to again extend the "daytime" rate period to 0700 hrs - 2100 hrs! there is no stopping this type of profiteering if the "regulator" is sleeping!

It just reaffirms my concerns that the current "competition" is doing nothing to reduce prices. On the contrary, BT is pushing up call costs and Ofcom is happy with that.