I've just spoken to someone at Micro Direct in the hope that they would verify the geographical numbers. I explained repeatedly that 0870 numbers cost more to call than geographical numbers.

He repeated that they are a "national call rate" and said that they cost the same to call from anywhere in the country (10p/min!!?), when apparently geographical numbers do not.  When I pointed out that I made the call on the 0161 number for 1p (with Call18866) and said I cannot get such a rate to 0870, he didn't really have an answer, apart from saying that it's down to the provider.

Eventually, he put the phone down. What hope is there when people are as stupid as this??

If there is anyone else using this company who is reading this, please inform them of your discust at their rip-off numbers.

Also, feel free to ring them on 0161 2484848. Maybe you can talk sense into this numpty.

PS All the numbers for Micro Direct are here. ;)

Just spoke to Micro Direct myself, also tried telling the girl at Micro about 0870 numbers, it was like talking to a brick wall. Will try again next week, hopefully a different sales rep.
steve

I had personally not heard of MicroDirect but out of interest I looked them up.

This company is worried and has offered a direct challenge to anybody prepared to take them up.

See http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Contact.aspx

Give them BT for a start, then Leicester and then your own?

"National rates NOT at Premium"?

Good Hunting,

juby

juby, why do you say this company is worried. There is no indication of any concern about their use of these numbers which I can see on the link you give?

Dorf, you have to open up the link a little, until you you see the telephone number and attached comments.

I have just checked and they are still there.

Press Customer service twice.

;)

Surely they can be reported to Trading Standards given that BT describe 0870 as premium rate??

juby, I had already previously tried what you suggested, but it did not work for me. Then I suddenly thought it could be my browser. Yes indeed it was. Apparently those links work with IE only. This is an increasingly common problem on ill-conceived web-sites; their nerds who set them up do not make them compatible with all browsers. Apparently they only want the business of those who use IE slavishly and nobody else!

So after trying IE I found the links worked. Even then what MD state is "Tel: 0870 44 22 233
Please note: The above number is charged at National rates NOT at Premium." That to me does not show that they are "worried" in any way. What it shows to me is that they are attempting to keep up the pretence of this whole scam. That is what it is about. They know in reality that these numbers are disguised Premium numbers. They know that because of the revenue which they receive! That is why they changed to using them. They are still attempting to claim that calls to 0870 are at "National rate". This of course is grossly incorrect now and a deliberate ploy to mislead their customers.

I shall send a message to their Customer Services making this point, since I am in fact a substantial customer of theirs at present, but will not continue to be if they persist with this pretence.

I have now sent the following message to their Customer Services.

I am incensed at your latest statement on your web-site related to your published disguised Premium number for contact with Customer Services. It is bad enough that you are amongst those dishonest organisations who use these disguised Premium numbers. To deliberately attempt to mislead your customers and to contravene the latest Ofcom requirements in this way is completely unacceptable. You are in fact well aware that this type of number is a disguised Premium number, since that is why you have changed over to using them and that is why you receive the revenue which you do by using them.

I prefer to do business with a company that is honest and trustworthy. Since BT forced their customers to their Option 1 there is no longer any such rate as a "National" rate even with BT. With all other call carriers 0870 and other similar disguised Premium numbers can be charged at as much as 600 times more than the lowest cost call carrier's rate to call the same location. These numbers are thus very expensive for customers to call, and this is solely because of the Premiums which have to be paid, since they are Premium numnbers. Please therefore desist from the dishonest statements on your web-site. BT have now admitted that these numbers are Premium numbers and Ofcom have admitted the same thing. I have been a substantial customer of yours in the past, but if you continue to be so dishonest I shall cease to give you any of my business.  If you wish to continue to use such numbers admit on your website that they are Premium numbers which may be charged by some call carriers at rates as high as 15 p per minute. To state  "Tel: 0870 44 22 233 Please note: The above number is charged at National rates NOT at Premium."  is deliberately and blatantly dishonest.

Additionally it appears that some buttons/links on your web-site only work if your potential customer is using MS Internet Explorer. You should be aware that increasing numbers of aware web users, who are concerned about their security do not use IE and a result you may be excluding them as your potential customers.

Well done dorf, a good letter.

You queried my suggestion that they were worried, what I meant was that they were nervous about their telephone number, they obviously are because they make it as difficult as possible to access it. In your case impossible.

Is this the actions of a company that is trying to make money out of 0870? Definately not, it is the action of a company that is trying to stop you ringing them!

They want you to e-mail them. You are a regular customer of theirs, do you get good service? Do they respond to e-mails promptly? Have you had any problems that could not be addressed promptly by sending an e-mail?

The comments after their phone number are unnecessary, illegal and should be removed but to suggest that you are not going to do business with them any more because of something you have heard from me and ors is I think over the top?

They were probably sold that number by conmen from neg.

By the way it is possible to make every page of a website selective on who can access it by which browser, they are not nerds.

juby

wrote on Mar 24^th, 2005 at 12:28pm:

Surely they can be reported to Trading Standards given that BT describe 0870 as premium rate??

Everyone can make a complaint against any company to Trading Standards Office about a company making a false statement.

It should be made to TSO in the area in which the companies Registered Office is.




In this case Manchester. http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/manchester/linksc.htm

I would quote the Leicester decision to them.

wrote on Mar 24^th, 2005 at 9:29pm:

Everyone can make a complaint against any company to Trading Standards Office about a company making a false statement.

Done.  ;)

Another one to look at is Miller Brothers. I am very disapointed that this company has sunk to the level of generating revenue with 0870 numbers. They seem to be changing into another Comet, Currys or Dixons. Their old geographical numbers for all stores now have messages on directing the caller to 0870s.

If you select Customer Information -> Contact Details it states at the bottom of the page: "Calls to Miller Brothers are designated by OFTEL as National Rate and are charged as such. The exact cost may be obtained from your Telephone Service Provider."

I've pointed this out to them in emails and they cannot be bothered to reply. I've emailed Martin Foster, who I believe is the MD. The email never returned unsent, so I assume it got to its destination.

Feel free to contact Doncaster Trading Standards.

Hi juby,

glad you liked my complaint to Micro Direct.

I take your point that " By the way it is possible to make every page of a website selective on who can access it by which browser, they are not nerds." I do realise that it can be done of course. My point was that if web sites for marketing are properly designed they will be accessible by any browser, not just one particular one.

If you are marketing on the Internet, then if you are commercially aware you understand that your web site is a bit like a shop, but with a much larger potential international clientelle. If you open a shop and put a notice in the window "Only blonde haired people, wearing bowler hats, a red pullover, having green eyes, carrying a Diners Club credit card, wearing Nike trainers and wearing a pink raincoat are allowed in this shop. We do not sell to others." then your sales volume is likely to be extremely small indeed. There have been articles about exactly this type of stupidity in web configuration in the technical press (such as Computer Weekly and Computing) over the last few years.

Nerds configure marketing web sites when they are allowed to run out of control with no proper commercial manager supervising them, mandating one marque of browser only, the lowest possible operating level of security and privacy, Active X, Flash, Real Player, O'Grady Jumping Up and Down utility and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, whatever is the latest vogue widget which they wish to inflict on everyone for their own peculiar motives. Rather than helping to sell a companies products all this stupidity does is to drastically reduce the potential market which might be reached.

It is possible to design a perfectly adequate marketing web site which does not mandate or dictate any requirements to one's potential cusomers, and as a direct result all may visit and browse. (Trolleys may be executed without resorting to mandating cookies for example.) This sensible strategy will obviously result in the highest sales and potentially the greatest profits. This is what effective professional web site design is truly about, and the papers in various trade press vehicles have made this point over and over; however the young nerds still just don't get it.

That was the point I was attempting to make, not that it is not possible to configure a web site so that only one marque of browser can access it. Clearly you can do this, with severe consequences. Hope you see the point?

Hi Juby

I have never received a consistent answer as to which Trading Standards Office a complaint should be made. I have found that the best policy to send two; first to complain to the Trading Standards Office in the location in which the company trades and second, to complain to your own local Trading Standards Office.

I may be completely wrong, but I don’t think it is necessary to send a complaint to the TS Office in the location of the Registered Office of the Company  - of course it would do no harm to send one.

[By way of analogy: A Court Writ (now called a Claim) can be served at: (1) the Principal Office of the company OR  (2) Any place or business of the company within the jurisdiction …  The requirement to serve on the Registered Office has now been removed.  Source: Civil Procedure Rules – Part 6]

[A Court Writ (now called a Claim) can be served at: (1) the Principal Office of the company OR  (2) Any place or business of the company within the jurisdiction …  The requirement to serve on the Registered Office has now been removed.  Source: Civil Procedure Rules – Part 6]

If anybody is considering doing this, then the best idea is to contact your own trading standards.

The reason behind this, is if you contact Edinburgh trading standards, about an Edinburgh company, then they will of course take action, and this may require the directors of a compny to travel to their local trading standards office, or local court and of if they have legal representation, their legal team would also have to travel the short distance to Edinburgh court.

However, if you wish to take this Edinburgh company to trading standards at Plymouth, think of the logistics of travelling down to Plymouth from Edinburgh.  One day for travel down, 1 day for court, 1 day for travel back, 2 nights hotel accommodation for each person travelling, along with train/plane fares, or petrol costs.  

Plus the fact that the people involved in legal representation would be paid for working 3 extra full days on a case, and managers of the company would spend 3 days out of the office, instead of chasing up contracts, or playing golf!!

And that's assuming the road or rail networks have no problems, and the mettings take place on time!!

The moral of the story, take a company to court in your own area.  Let them chose between the travelling problems or agreeing to settle the claim against them!!

My inclusion at the end of my post, regarding service of documents relating to the service of a Claim, may on reflection be confusing.  The comment was included by way of analogy only; and to illustrate that the location of the Registered Office, of a Company, may no longer be a relevant consideration.  The actual trading address may be the relevant address.

Any court action (usually the last resort)  is invariably taken by the Trading Standards Department and not the individual making the complaint.

Copy of e-mail sent to Honest John in the Daily Telegraph today: [email]Subject: New Nav

 Hi, HJ,

Whist I would not hesitate to do business with a company reccomended by you, (I have done so in the past), I would not dream of doing business with a company who has the arrogance to invite me ring them on a Premium number!
(0871 is charged at 10 pence a minute ar all times)

What are they thinking about? If it was a geograhical number, it would cost me one penny a minute to ring them.

Regards,  
[/email]
The Comapany New-Nav states that they "are recommended by Honest John"

Success with the last one.

Honest John replied to my e-mail say that he would tell them.

I do not suppose it is over yet, the company has yet to deny it is a premium number, but am in no doubt that they will!

juby

wrote on Mar 24^th, 2005 at 9:29pm:

It should be made to TSO in the area in which the companies Registered Office is.

Generally, a complaint should be made to your own Trading Standards office, i.e. for the area in which you live.  That office can provide advice as to any civil claim you may have against a trader (unlikely in this case unless you have in fact been misled -- which members of this group will not have been as they now know full well how much an 0870 call costs).

A criminal offence (which is what we're talking about here) can be investigated by the TS office in whose area the offence is committed.  This is usually the area where the advert has been read -- so again your local TS office if you read the advert at home.  If you read the advert somewhere else, you could try reporting to the TS office for the area you were in, but some TS offices will only field complaints from their own residents (in which case your own office should then forward to the correct enforcing authority).

The TS authority for the company's head office is known as their 'home authority'.  An enforcing authority will refer complaints about the company to the home authority for advice.  If legal action is being considered, the enforcing authority will contact the home authority first, to find out what advice was previously given and to find out if anyone else is already taking action on the same matter (to avoid duplication).

Sounds complicated, but should clarify -- report to your own TS office.  Note that, in some regions, the call will automatically transfer to Consumer Direct (DTI-led consumer advice service) but that a call with a criminal element will be referred through the the relevant TS office(s) by them too so long as you make it clear that you think there's a criminal element to it.

I am sorry but I seem to have misled you in some way, in my original statement I said quote,
"It should be made to the TSO in the area in which the companies registered office is."
I never mentioned any criminal offence, fraud or crime against the person.
You are confusing this with the courts, county, small claims etc., where it is compulsory to make the claim in your local County Court. That is a claim for a debt owing and has got nothing to do with a report to the Trading Standards Officer about something you consider is against the common good, it does not even have to be against the law.

It makes obvious sense to make the complaint in the area where they are known, as any previous complaints will immediatey show up. I did not say it was compulsory.

juby

Here is the reply to an email I sent to this arrogant company that want me to pay them to enquire about purchasing their goods!

If you do not wish to contact us by telephone you may alternatively contact us by email. We are not able to provide anything other than a non-geographic number due to the way the calls are routed.  If you have any further complaints please address them in writing to:

The Customer Service Manager
Micro Direct Ltd
275a Upper Brook Street
Manchester
M12 0HR

Regards

Stuart Tracey
Customer Services
Micro Direct
Tel: 0870 4422233
Fax: 0161 9477382

I wonder who feeds these morons this garbage they regurgitate? Probably the crooks at BT.....  >:(

But notice that they have a geographic fax number....

How about writing to them, with an unstamped envelope!!

That way, they have to pay the cost of the stamp, plus £1 handling to Royal Mail!!

The problem is that is not a practical option. If you do that the chances are they will not accept the letter. If they do not agree to pay the additional fee the Post Office will not deliver your letter.

The difficulty at the bottom of all of this is why you need to contact them at all. Due to the fact that they are an Internet-based business, you will normally only need to contact them because of reasons such as:

1) Their inadequate web system has failed to accept your prefectly valid Credit Card.

2) They have failed to deliver what you ordered and have paid for.

3) The products they have delivered to you or some of them are faulty.

4) They have debited one or more of your Credit Cards more than once for the goods which you ordered, mainly due to the inadequacies of their web site and the way in which it handles Credit Cards. (Credit card companies have actually telephoned me and asked me why MD have failed to follow their specified procedures!)

I have experienced all of these situations. This is what is so unacceptable about this complete NGN scam. These companies like MD want to charge YOU to sort out the mistakes which THEY have made! If they had not demonstrated their incompetence by their erroneous actions you would not be needing to telephone them at all!

I have received an acknowledgement from Manchester Trading Standards, saying that they are looking into this. I'm not in Manchester, so it seems that the procedure of reporting to a company's local TS is right (at least for the NGN complaint).

I emailed Manchester Trading Standards a few weeks ago. This is what I sent them:

Quote:

I am writing to you regarding Micro Direct Ltd's description of its 0870 telephone numbers. If you look at the contact page (http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Contact.aspx) click "Customer Service" (bottom right) the email address pops up, click "Customer Service" below the email address and the telephone number is revealed. Below the number is the statement "The above number is charged at National rates NOT at Premium." This is clearly misleading, as it implies that calls to 0870 cost the same as a geographical number, which they do not on the vast majority of calling packages including BT Together. On this subject, I would like to draw your attention to Leicester City Council's response (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/213630/responses/leicester_cc.pdf) to Ofcom's consultation "0845 and 0870 numbers: Review of retail price and numbering arrangements" published 26/09/03, it states in paragraph 1.3: "...we reached the conclusion that any price indication given to consumers, which suggested that an 0845 call would be priced in line with a local call or that an 0870 call would be priced in line with a national call, was misleading within the meaning of Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987. Any person giving such price indications, or giving advice that such price indications may be used, is in our view guilty of a criminal offence under that legislation. Such persons could include NTS Service Providers, Terminating Operators and OFTEL themselves."

And this is the reply I received.

Quote:

RE: Micro Direct Website I am writing regarding your complaint about the description of 0870 telephone numbers on the Micro Direct website. I have looked at the facts and have been in touch with Leicester City Council Trading Standards to query their response to the consultation, which you referred to in your complaint. Leicester Trading Standards have said that they no longer agree with the opinion as it was given some time ago and circumstances have changed since then. There are a number of telephone service providers competing with British Telecom, all with varying national and local rates and in view of the wide variation, we believe it would be difficult to allege a Misleading Price indication under The Consumer Protection 1987. However, we will continue to collect information relating to the differing local and national rates and will contact you in the future to report on our findings if we feel it necessary. Thank you for bringing the matter to our attention. If you require any further assistance, please contact me on the above telephone number.

Very disappointed. I can't work out whether they have been sucked in by the confusion themselves and think that 0870 is the same as a national call.

[glb]There are a number of telephone service providers competing with British Telecom, all with varying national and local rates and in view of the wide variation, we believe it would be difficult to allege a Misleading Price indication under The Consumer Protection 1987.[/glb]

All that has changed since 2003, is that BT has forced people onto BT together option 1, therefore nobody pays the same rate for 0870 as they do on geographic numbers.

So, this should make the case stronger, not weaker as rival telecoms companies still charge more for 0870 than geographic calls, and in many cases even more than BT, whereas their geographic calls vary between free, and a few pence per minute during the day.

wrote on Apr 21^st, 2005 at 6:35pm:

So, this should make the case stronger, not weaker as rival telecoms companies still charge more for 0870 than geographic calls, and in many cases even more than BT, whereas their geographic calls vary between free, and a few pence per minute during the day.

That's how I see it aswell.

In addition, what local and national rates are they referring to? Those that apply to geographical numbers and/or those that apply to 0845 and 0870?

Whilst it's impossible to show pricing information by the number, the 'local' and 'national' titles are clearly misleading, and something that TS should have picked up on.

wrote on Apr 21^st, 2005 at 6:44pm:

Whilst it's impossible to show pricing information by the number....

Time for free front-end announcements?
Go for it Ofcom  :)

Bad news about Leicester.

Should we accept it as fact, or press on with quoting it and let them deny it first hand?

The comment by Manchester is hearsay.

And what circumstances have changed since the piece was written?

When was it written? I know it refers to "in 2001/2" but has anybody any knowledge of the date?

Sept 03, but the question above still stands.

juby

I wrote to Manchester T/S over this pointing out ASA/CAP guidelines, etc and this was their reply:-


Quote:

This has been raised before, and I think is far from unique to Micro Direct. The officer who raised it took the matter to LACORS to get their opinion on this, but we have not received this yet. The Advertising Standards Authority advice is clear that "national rate" should not be used for 0870 numbers, but this is not the same as a court finding this to be misleading price indication. You are probably aware that Ofcom are currently consulting on changes to 087 and 084 numbers and propose to return 0870 to the same as national rate calls and allow 0871 calls to share revenue and be higher, but require a short message at the start of the call stating the charge to be made. I will write to the company to inform them of the ASA opinion and proposed Ofcom changes.

Therefore it is obvious that for some unknown reason a 0870 call costing 8ppm is the same as a geographical national call costing 3ppm and isn't really misleading at all!

wrote on Apr 5^th, 2005 at 6:46pm:

The difficulty at the bottom of all of this is why you need to contact them at all. Due to the fact that they are an Internet-based business, you will normally only need to contact them because of reasons such as: 1) Their inadequate web system has failed to accept your prefectly valid Credit Card. 2) They have failed to deliver what you ordered and have paid for. 3) The products they have delivered to you or some of them are faulty. 4) They have debited one or more of your Credit Cards more than once for the goods which you ordered, mainly due to the inadequacies of their web site and the way in which it handles Credit Cards. (Credit card companies have actually telephoned me and asked me why MD have failed to follow their specified procedures!) I have experienced all of these situations. This is what is so unacceptable about this complete NGN scam. These companies like MD want to charge YOU to sort out the mistakes which THEY have made! If they had not demonstrated their incompetence by their erroneous actions you would not be needing to telephone them at all!

Dorf, I am about to take MD to small claims court to recover £60 fees which my bank charged me after MD pulled funds 3 times for 1 item, which exceeded my overdraft, because of their site said that my payment failed and to try again.

Could I use your post as evidence to show that this happens to others as MD are trying to blame me.

Thanks

Cyclone,

Have sent you a PM.

I sent one yesterday.

Well it now seems that Manchester T/S (after I argued with them) have wrote to MicroDirect and informed them of their misleading 'National' description.

Looking at their website now under customer services, it reads:-

Quote:

Tel: 0870 44 22 233 Please note: Numbers prefixed 0870 will be charged at no more than 8p per minute at peak times, 4p in the evenings and 2p at weekends from a standard residential BT landline.

It doesn't seem to mention that costs from other landline/mobiles vary but it does clearly state that prices they quote are from a BT landline.  A small victory I believe.