Hello,

As a newbie to this site, please excuse me if this is a dumb question.

Are there always geographical alternatives to 0870 numbers i.e. we just have to find them out?

Or is it possible for companies/organisations to have phones/switchboards which are only reachable by premium rate numbers?


Alan

Yes ALWAYS. All 'virtual' numbers need somewhere to deliver the call to whether a physical wireline or mobile, or indeed VoIP terminal.  Routing tables take the 'real' number and deliver the call to that, this may be a PABX hunt group if a call centre, but it is fair to say there is NO possibility of an 0870 number being the true number of a telephone circuit.

Ahh, thanks for that. I sort of had a feeling that might be the case, but wasn't sure.

So, we just need to be really cunning and/or persistant to get hold of those number!

Keep up the good work, folks.


Alan

wrote on Apr 7^th, 2005 at 8:15am:

... or indeed VoIP terminal. ...

From what I've read on here (I think jrawle's the one to answer this), 0870s can connect straight to VoIP lines without a geographical number.

There are also other technical methods which BT may use within exchanges to hide a delivery GN. This can make it impossible to detect externally to the exchange. This is why you will find that some companies intent on collecting the Premiums are having their delivery GNs changed by BT. In addition there are methods which BT may use in the exchange to prevent any incoming calls being made directly to the new GN. The success of this site and increasing publicity for it is in fact the main reason for these moves by the most devious entities.

That is why as I have suggested before, the eventual outcome of the current trend if continued is that there will be less and less usable GN alternatives on this site, unless Ofcom takes the correct action. Saynoto0870 has just been too effective and successful. In the end this success could be self-destructive unless Ofcom intervene to end this increasing concealment.  

In such a case where they have had the GN changed the entity collecting the Premiums will almost always be aware of the new actual GNs they have been allocated, since they will be billed for any outgoing calls on those GNs. Unless these new numbers can be discovered by clandestine means (moles) or by use of automated scanners they will not be discovered. Even if they were where directly incoming calls have been inhibited they will not be of any use. This is why it is so important that Ofcom enforce the declaration of a GN capable of receiving incoming calls for every non-09 Premium NGN advertised or published by entities.

Hi,

This is copied from an e-mail to me from Offcom.........
"By way of background, I should explain that 0845/0870 numbers are known as Number Translation Services (NTS) ie the non-geographic number sits on top of a geographic number"

So the answer is YES.

The trouble is most employees do not know this, nor what the Geographic number is.

The thing is to tell them, and harass them, and ask to speak to the Manager/Telecoms-Chief and keep on at them. If a few people do this they'll consider offering the Geog alternative as routine.

ALSO,
E-mail companies with a standard letter such as these below

eg (brief)
Hello,

I would like to order(etc) from you, but we do not use nor support 0870 (non-geographic overlay numbers)
Please can you give me the your underlying (geographically coded) normal number.

Thank you

Or, where you think education is necessary.........

Dear Sir/Madam

We would like to order/register/join/do-business-with your company/organisation but we do not use/support 0845/0870 (Non-geographic) telephone numbers.

These numbers are a high-cost, anti-competition device, which has locked out other call-carriers.
With carriers such as Onetel, Telco, Vartec, 18866 or Asda I can call normal, geographically-coded (fixed-dial) numbers for a small fraction of the cost of your non-geographic numbers!!

We resent this, especially as one is invariably expected to queue on these high BT rates.
Furthermore 0870’s are “Revenue-sharing” numbers. We cannot support businesses that seek to derive silent income by keeping their customers waiting on the phone. Offcom and Which have expressed concerns about this.

Offcom are currently investigating this scam.
They have assured me, on several occasions that every single non-geographic number has a normal, “fixed-dial”, geographic alternative.
Companies wishing to derive income from this scam may choose not to reveal their normal number at the moment, but of course we can have no relation with such businesses.

All our Bank/Building societies have given us these alternative numbers, can you do the same please?

N.B.  This situation is even more extreme now that we (like thousands of others) have opted for an “all-in” monthly deal with (carrier) (£13.99/month) for unlimited normal UK calls.
This means that a call to any normal code is zero(extra)! But 0870’s are 9p/min. and 0845’s 4p/min.!!!!!!

I can dial Australia or USA for 1p/min, and most of Europe at 2/min. (with 18866), so these rates are outrageous!!!!!!!!


Please do NOT fob me off. Please pass this to a higher authority if you feel unauthorised or unable to comply. (Giving the geographic number)

Yours truly

Ofcom are not telling you the complete story!

As I explained before there are technical methods which BT may use within exchanges to hide a NTS delivery GN. This can make it impossible to determine the delivery GN externally to the exchange. This is why you will find that some companies intent on collecting the Premiums are having their delivery GNs changed by BT. In addition there are technical methods which BT may use within the exchange to prevent any incoming calls being made directly to the new GN.

So do not conclude that there is always a GN which can be found and called instead of the NGN. It is not true with this sort of devious action on the part of BT.

Thanks Dorf,

Sorry but I don't know what the initials GN  stands for?

But if it means that BT "hide" the underlying numbers even from their host-clients, it does not mean they don't exist. So Offcom could still be correct.

In-all-events the companies using 0870 numbers could demand to know these numbers (presumably) if their customers demand them. So consumer pressure is still the necessary action.
If enough people ask, the ordinary numbers will be rooted out and disclosed. Don't you think?

Thanks

Len

[glb]Sorry but I don't know what the initials GN  stands for?[/glb]

GN = Geographic Number

NGN = Non Geographic Number

Yes Shiggaddi GN = Geographic Number.

Eljay, the point is that where there are still any GNs underlying the translation (routing) from a NGN, if BT inhibit incoming calls to those GNs directly within the exchange it would not help even if you could ascertain what the GNs were? I believe in any case that there are facilities within digital exchanges which can be set up to enable access directly to NGNs without there being any underlying GN at all; clearly at present there is a physical line or there are lines delivering to the particular Geographic termination(s), but this type of configuration means that no outgoing calls are possible on these lines and the receiving client is not aware of any normal GN having been allocated to them for this carriage; (indeed no particular GN designation may have been allocated to these lines at all). In such circumstances such a subscriber will make all of their outgoing calls on other normal GNs, and for other normal business purposes will receive other calls on those GNs.

In this configuration the incoming calls on the NGN lines are delivered only to collect the Premiums from their customers and to ensure that there is no other translated number which the subscriber's customers may call to avoid these Premiums. These are the only lines then entering their call centre for example.

With the average level of comprehension about these things which exists within Ofcom, it is even possible that they are not aware of the full extent of circumvention which is possible and now being practised. It is all a bit like the situation between British POWs and the German officers in concentration camps like Colditz during the last World War. Half the time the Germans did not know what was going on!

wrote on Apr 10^th, 2005 at 6:40pm:

Ofcom are not telling you the complete story! As I explained before there are technical methods which BT may use within exchanges to hide a NTS delivery GN. This can make it impossible to determine the delivery GN externally to the exchange. This is why you will find that some companies intent on collecting the Premiums are having their delivery GNs changed by BT. In addition there are technical methods which BT may use within the exchange to prevent any incoming calls being made directly to the new GN. So do not conclude that there is always a GN which can be found and called instead of the NGN. It is not true with this sort of devious action on the part of BT.

What tosh you talk....

What you are actually talking about is not some devious action on the part of BT, but in fact another method of delivering high volumes of calling traffic across dedicated bearers.

In summary it is possible to have NGN services delivered across what is a private circuit directly in to the operators network. As a result being connected to the operators serving exchange negates the need for a GN (geographic number). This type of service is a way of reducing overheads as the bearers are normally incoming only, ensuring a higher level of service for incoming callers as outgoing traffic is routed down other paths and therefore reduces the chance of congestion.

This type of access in to call centres is also offered by C&W, Energis, Kingston, Colt to name but a few other operators besides BT.

It's not some "Devious" plan to increase revenues but a way of enhancing customer service levels and increasing your opportunity to receive an answer on the first call attempt.

wrote on Apr 11^th, 2005 at 1:17pm:

Yes Shiggaddi GN = Geographic Number. With the average level of comprehension about these things which exists within Ofcom, it is even possible that they are not aware of the full extent of circumvention which is possible and now being practised. It is all a bit like the situation between British POWs and the German officers in concentration camps like Colditz during the last World War. Half the time the Germans did not know what was going on!

Again you are writing without knowledge of fact. If you go back to 1986 when NGN was 1st introduced to the UK the use of private circuits was the only way you could have 0800 or 0345, as it was in those days (Point of fact these circuits used AC15E signalling, I'm sure if you Google you can get more information on it). So it's not some devious plot to rob / or mis-inform customers today or to mis-lead OFCOM, it's simply another choice being practiced by business as being cost effective.

Then why not have a geographical style number on a "private circuit"? ???

wrote on May 10^th, 2005 at 8:49pm:

Then why not have a geographical style number on a "private circuit"? ???

Freedom of choice, why bother with a PC then?, use ISDN30 or DASS 2 and have a GN, but the first option will be more cost effective as there is typically less network routing.

Also using GNs limits the amount of available network functionality which would then have to be put in to the call centre environment thus increasing overheads which would have to be funded by the customer. They'll get you one way or another.

What is wrong with having a simple normal geographical number with multiple lines??

Hospitals, for example, have hundreds of lines on their geographical extensions... they don't have any problems at all and this is a fact.  Is it better to keep people waiting, listening to annoying music for ages while racking up hefty charges on their phone bill??

May I also point out that you initially said this wasn't an issue of cost:


wrote on May 10^th, 2005 at 7:55pm:

It's not some "Devious" plan to increase revenues but a way of enhancing customer service levels and increasing your opportunity to receive an answer on the first call attempt.

But more recently you said:


wrote on May 10^th, 2005 at 8:03pm:

...it's simply another choice being practiced by business as being cost effective.

wrote on May 10^th, 2005 at 9:12pm:

Also using GNs limits the amount of available network functionality which would then have to be put in to the call centre environment thus increasing overheads which would have to be funded by the customer. They'll get you one way or another.

You seem to contradict yourself an awful lot... ::)  

Tungata,

What tosh you write. I agree with Smasher you also seem to contradict yourself a lot. (With a handle like that I suppose it is to be expected.)

I did not state at all that BT were doing what they do as a "devious plan to increase revenues.." Those are your words.

Indeed looking at what you have written it is quite clear that either you have no detailed technical knowledge of this issue at all, or if you do you are trying to argue the opposite of what you know to be true, for devious purposes. If one examines the whole tone of what you have posted it is quite clear that you are someone with, or represent someone or some entity with, a vested interest in this NGN Premium-generating racket.

The absolute and most definite thing that this racket is NOT about, which you attempt to claim, is "enhancing customer service levels and increasing your opportunity to receive an answer on the first call attempt...", and "it's simply another choice being practiced by business as being cost effective...". It is quite clear that you also do not understand the first thing about nor have any real knowledge of formal business management, otherwise you would not make such foolish claims!

The very reason that call queing continues to be allowed with this scam is precisely because what you claim is untrue! That is why the big money is being made from call queing - because calls are not answered as quickly as possible, but ARE QUEUED FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

I am finding this discussion a little complicated to follow but can I just say as a customer, that even before I discovered this website, I had almost stopped trying to communicate with 0870 numbers. They cost me heavily in terms of my time, and rather less so, but irritatingly, in money. This ridiculously bad treatment of customers is losing business for telephone services.

And unfortunately at the end of the day after dealing with these call centres, I am too stressed to write the letter complaining about the service, and don't know where to write.

So I am not going to understand any claims that the idea is to provide a better service. The bottom line that it is now appalling and everyone you talk to feels the same. Old people give up entirely.

wrote on May 16^th, 2005 at 3:59pm:

Old people give up entirely.

Really, what do you consider to be old? That is of course up to you. But it is an unfortunate remark, because I know of quite a few people in their 70s who are actively campaigning against the whole scam of 0870.

Most of us are retired you see and have to pay real tax paid money for our phone calls, we cannot charge our company for them.

I have never called an 0870 number (*) but I am only 65.

juby