Can someone please confirm how much it cost to call an 0844 number from a normal BT line and also a Phone Box, during the daytime, evening and at weekends?

I am getting so confused in trying to get this information from BT's site, I would appreciate some help please.

I have phoned BT's helpline for BT charges - 0800 800 990 and got one rate, then lost it (! I know) and then called them again and got another rate!!!!!

I could do with this information as I am writing to my GP and want to show how much it costs to call them, as I really believe that they do not know (or care?).

If you could provide a link with proof of these charges, so I can confirm it to my GP, I would be grateful.

Go to the posting on the 25/2/05 by Lompos for this info.
Its on about page 2 of the Nhs Premium and National Rate Phone Line postings.

Doctors will be using the 5p a min at all times service i believe.

Thank you.

wrote on May 5^th, 2005 at 5:07pm:

Can someone please confirm how much it cost to call an 0844 number from a normal BT line and also a Phone Box, during the daytime, evening and at weekends?

Can't help with the cost from a phone box but, from a BT residential landline, the costs range between ½p/minute and 5p/minute depending upon subsequent digits and/or the day/time of day.

Heinz, that is exactly what I wanted.  Thanks ever so.

Anyone got a cost from a phone box? ???

OK.  I am going to send this.

I refer to our past correspondence.  

I think that you may have been ill advised either by your PCT, the Government, or your switchboard supplier - now that you have changed your number from 0870 428 0773 to 0844 477 8648.  

The penalty to call you is now even worse than it was when you had your 0870 number, which was bad enough.  Allow me to explain.

The following table shows the cost of a 1 minute call to your surgery from a residential phone.

0870 7.90p 3.95p 1.50p
0844 5.00p 5.00p 5.00p

A daytime call to a 01380 number with BT, on their standard tariff costs just 3p a minute. During the weekends and evenings an hour-long call costs just 5½p. Some supplier tariffs have free calls to ‘normal’ 01 or 02 numbers.  Your patients cannot benefit from these tariffs when they call your surgery.

Your suppliers’ statement on their website and a bulletin from Customer Service Call Centre at the Department of Health, state that 0844 numbers are ‘guaranteed low rate call’ or lo-call’ numbers.  This is incorrect - they are high cost numbers to call.

You can clearly see that the rate you now force patients to pay to call you is excessively high when compared to a call to a 01 or 02 number.  The situation worsens if a patient has to use a phone box, as many do, to reach you.  This can cost up to 30p for the same duration!  So, you penalise further those that are disadvantaged.  Calling your 0844 number from a mobile phone can be over 10p a minute!

This excessive charge generates a rebate.  This rebate, or income, is created on every call to your surgery number.  Someone is earning revenue from each call to your practice.  I trust you are aware of part 18 clause 483 of the Standard Medical Services Contract?  It states:

“The contractor shall not, either itself or through any other person, demand or accept from any patient of it’s a fee or other remuneration for its own or another’s benefit.”

The use of revenue generating phone numbers is contrary to this provision because it means acceptance of remuneration from your patients.  It is irrelevant if this income is paid to you or if your supplier uses it to fund supplying your switchboard.

I know one of your patients hung up when trying to reach you, because they thought they had the wrong number and was confused to hear ‘press 1 for appointments, 2 for enquiries etc.  When she tried to redial, she pressed the wrong number she was so confused.  This is not an ‘improved service’ as you claim.

I now respectfully request, under The Freedom of Information (FOI) Act passed on 30 November 2000 that you supply me with the 01380 terminating number for your surgery and all other numbers in your practise where you have an 0870 or 0845 numbers.

I very much look forward to hearing from you soon.
*********************************************

I have to say that I feel a bit scared about doing this, but I feel that I have to do something.

Can I ask that someone has a look over this and just lets me know that I am not going to be visited late at night by the GP Gestapo or something!

PS.  The table in the letter did not copy too well. I have ammended it a bit, but I am sure you get the drift?

wrote on May 5^th, 2005 at 7:26pm:

The situation worsens if a patient has to use a phone box, as many do, to reach you.  This can cost up to 30p for the same duration!

I think 30p is the minimum charge from a phone box now so use of the phrase 'up to 30p' is not correct.

That 30p would buy a 15 minute call to any UK 01 or 02 number but, because calls to any 0844 (g6) number from a phone box costs 10p connection and 10p for each 43 seconds, that 30p buys less than 1½ minutes (86 seconds) when calling one.

You've also got the call charges to 0870 numbers slightly wrong.

From a BT residential landline, they are:

7.51p/minute peak - 3.75p/minute off peak - 1.50p/minute weekend (all incl. VAT).

As I said before, that 30p minimum charge call from a phone box would buy a 15 minute call to any UK 01 or 02 number but, because calls to 0870 numbers from phone boxes cost 10p connection and 10p for each 55 seconds, it buys less than 2 minutes (110 seconds) when calling one.

In other words, from a phone box it costs MORE to call any 0844 number than to call an 0870 number!  

A 5 minute call costs:

0870 - 70p
0844 - 80p

A 10 minute call costs:

0870 - £1.20
0844 - £1.50

Which is why the government forcing GPs' surgeries which were using 0870 numbers to change to 0844 numbers was nothing more than 'spin' because, although there has been a reduction from 7.51p/minute to 5p/minute from a residentail landline, the disadvataged in our society - those most likely to have to use a phone box - will now have to pay MORE to call their GP.

Looks great to me. It gives me more  to throw at them when I ring back to complain that the assistant hasn't rung me back since I called the PCT last Thursday.

And I don't mind sending the letter to them - what can they do to me ??   ;D

See here for the number prefix's Charge Rate.

Now refer here to find out how long you get for 10p in a BT Payphone. Remember, as it states on that page, that all calls are subject to a minimum charge of 30p and a 10p connection charge.

0844s charged at 5p/min at all times are g6 (see non-discounted BT rates).

In a Payphone, you get 43s for 10p, so these 0844s cost 13.95p/min + 10p connection.

Well written letter Cricketer.  When you get a reply from your GP please post it.

0844 numbers attract varying charges.  From landlines they are all listed at:

http://www.bt.com/Pricing/pis_info.jsp?PRICE_OPTION=Residential/PIS_Specialised_Numbers/innertext/&showsub=PIS_Residential&showsub2=PIS_Specialised_Numbers&c_index=08

However, NEG plc who is the phone system provider for GPs stated that their 0844 numbers will be charged at 5p/min from landlines.  Payphone charges are in fact much higher, higher even than for 0870 numbers.  You may find the following table useful.  It is a  comparison of daytime call charges for 0870/0844/payphone/geog numbers for varying durations (but call charges from mobiles are not included):

http://uk.msnusers.com/Premiumratetelephonenumbers/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

(the asterisk in the table is for 5p/min)

Thanks everyone.  All changes made.

Letter printed and enveloped.

I shall hand deliver tomorrow.  

I wouldn't want them to have it lost in the post now, would I?

If and when I get a reply I shall post it here.

Not 1 but 2 letters!

Letter 1 - from the person that I wrote to - dated 10th May

I have received your letter dated 6th May 2005.  I have noted the comments you make in your letter.

As we do not know the geographical numbers I would like to refer you to NEG with your request

Letter 2 - from one of the partners in the practice - dated 11th May

Thank you for your recent letter.  We are sorry that you felt that you had to write to us again about the latest change to our telephone number.

We have duly noted the contents of your letter and these will form part of the agenda at a Partners' business meeting as soon as possible.

We have also had other advice, the gist of which we fully intend to convey to you in a seperate letter.

Please be assured we are giving the contents of your letter our fullest attention.  We will be in touch shortly.

I have not heard anything yet.

Anyone fancy helping me in my responses, so that I/we can be as irritating as possible?

wrote on May 5^th, 2005 at 5:07pm:

Can someone please confirm how much it cost to call an 0844 number from a normal BT line and also a Phone Box, during the daytime, evening and at weekends?

I know it is not what you asked but I *think* that either 18866 or 1899 charged me as if I were dialling a local call when I tried an 0844 on their service.

Funny i have tried dialling 0844 2p,and 5p tariff numbers from 18866 and it dont allow them.

wrote on May 16^th, 2005 at 7:27pm:

Not 1 but 2 letters! Letter 1 - from the person that I wrote to - dated 10th May I have received your letter dated 6th May 2005.  I have noted the comments you make in your letter. As we do not know the geographical numbers I would like to refer you to NEG with your request

Now that IS interesting - the surgery, who must supply the information under the FOI Act, have directed you to ask NEG - which, by definition, means that NEG must now supply the information!

So are NEG paying the phone bill for the Geographical No? if not the surgery should be able to get  the number from it.

Sorry everyone.  DaveM has reminded me that I have not put up the amended letter.  This is the letter I finally sent, having taken all of your thoughts about my initial draft.

I refer to our past correspondence.  

I think that you may have been ill advised either by your PCT, the Government, or your switchboard supplier - now that you have changed your number from 0870 428 0773 to 0844 477 8648.  

The penalty to call you is now even worse than it was when you had your 0870 number, which was bad enough.  Allow me to explain.

The following table shows the cost of a 1 minute call to your surgery from a residential phone.

NOTE - YOU WILL HAVE TO IMAGINE THAT A TABLE GOES HERE, SHOWING COSTS OF CALLS TO AN 0870 AND 0844 FOR DAY, EVENING AND WEEKENDS

0870
7.51p
3.75p
1.50p
0844
5.00p
5.00p
5.00p

A daytime call to a 01380 number with BT, on their standard tariff costs just 3p a minute. During the weekends and evenings an hour-long call costs just 5½p. Some supplier tariffs have free calls to ‘normal’ 01 or 02 numbers.  Your patients cannot benefit from these tariffs when they call your surgery.

Your suppliers’ statement on their website and a bulletin from Customer Service Call Centre at the Department of Health, state that 0844 numbers are ‘guaranteed low rate call’ or lo-call’ numbers.  This is incorrect - they are high cost numbers to call.

You can clearly see that the rate you now force patients to pay to call you is excessively high when compared to a call to a 01 or 02 number.  The situation worsens if a patient has to use a phone box, as many do, to reach you.  This call will cost your patients 30p for the same duration!  This is even higher than the cost of calling your 0870 number.  So, you penalise further those that are disadvantaged.  Calling your 0844 number from a mobile phone can be over 10p a minute!

This excessive charge generates a rebate.  This rebate, or income, is created on every call to your surgery number.  Someone is earning revenue from each call to your practice.  I trust you are aware of part 18 clause 483 of the Standard Medical Services Contract?  It states:

“The contractor shall not, either itself or through any other person, demand or accept from any patient of it’s a fee or other remuneration for its own or another’s benefit.”

The use of revenue generating phone numbers is contrary to this provision because it means acceptance of remuneration from your patients.  It is irrelevant if this income is paid to you or if your supplier uses it to fund supplying your switchboard.

I know one of your patients hung up when trying to reach you, because they thought they had the wrong number and was confused to hear ‘press 1 for appointments, 2 for enquiries etc.  When she tried to redial, she pressed the wrong number she was so confused.  This is not an ‘improved service’ as you claim.

I now respectfully request, under The Freedom of Information (FOI) Act passed on 30 November 2000 that you supply me with the 01380 terminating number for your surgery and all other numbers in your practise where you have an 0870 or 0845 numbers.

I very much look forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours sincerely

I trust that some of you others may find this method useful?

Has anyone any thoughts about my reply to the two replies?  Any AND ALL help appreciated.

wrote on May 17^th, 2005 at 8:32pm:

So are NEG paying the phone bill for the Geographical No? if not the surgery should be able to get  the number from it.

What/Who exactly is "NEG" - am I being thick or something??  I have absolutely no idea what it stands for :'(

wrote on May 18^th, 2005 at 8:29pm:

What/Who exactly is "NEG" - am I being thick or something??  I have absolutely no idea what it stands for :'(

Have you been on safari far far away Smasher?!

NEG are Network Europe Group who have been busy installing their "product", Surgery Line™ (note that they have spent money on trademarking it) in about 300 surgeries. There are quite a few threads on it. See here. See also their website here.

wrote on May 18^th, 2005 at 8:15pm:

I trust that some of you others may find this method useful? Has anyone any thoughts about my reply to the two replies?  Any AND ALL help appreciated.

You've written a great letter there cricketer! What have you done since then? Have you written to NEG or have you gone back to the surgery? I would think that NEG would just want to bat off anything like a request for the geographical number.

Also, on the one hand the surgery is under an obligation to give it out (or is it?), but on the other hand there may be a contract between the surgery and NEG which states that they must not give it out (assuming that they know it).

So where does this leave the surgery and the FOI Act?

I have done nothing - mainly as I have been a bit busy.

However, some thoughts - reply letter 1
I assume that I will need the surgery's permission to talk to NEG about their account with them? Should I ask for it? But maybe they have given it to me and I simply included a copy of their letter when I write to NEG?  Any thoughts?

Reply letter 2.
I am waiting for further correspondence from the partner, following their partner meeting.  I shall do nothing with this unless I do not hear from them in a month (they must have at least one partners meeting in a month don't you think?) - when I will badger the partner for a reply.  Any thoughts of what to say when I do?

wrote on May 18^th, 2005 at 8:40pm:

Have you been on safari far far away Smasher?! NEG are Network Europe Group who have been busy installing their "product", Surgery Line™ (note that they have spent money on trademarking it) in about 300 surgeries. There are quite a few threads on it. See here. See also their website here.

Thanks Dave! 8) I didn't know that but I do now ;D

Incidentally, I haven't been on safari, but I did visit West Midlands Safari Park last weekend, so you weren't far off ;D

Well done crickteer for your efforts. Have you any more news>?

No news as yet.

Not sure how long to leave it before I ask for the courtesy of a reply.

Any thoughts on what reply I should give?

I can't believe that NEG will provide me with the information if I just ask for it. Perhaps I should include a copy of the letter from the surgery when I do?

Cricketer.
There is another thread running on a similar vein entitled(SICK PAYING £5 to see GP) i dont know if you have read it.If not you might find the info helpful.

Thanks bigjohn, I was not aware of this.

Could still do with some advice on how to proceed.

Any thoughts anyone?

Hello Cricketer

The Freedom of Information Act gives right to access information held by public authorities including:

Central Government
Local Authorities
NHS Service
Schools
Police

It does not confer any rights with regard to information held by organisations that are not in the public sector, such as NEG.  Although you could try contacting NEG  referring to the surgery's reply to letter 1, I doubt if you will get a meaningful answer.

The surgery may just have tried to fob you off.  There are 3 possibilities:

a) the surgery has genuinely no information;

b) the surgery has some geographical numbers but they are unaware that these are the underlying numbers to their 0844 number;

c) the reply is a lie.

If a) is the case there is nothing to access, i.e. the FOI does not apply.

b) may be a likely scenario, therefore your request to the surgery should be pursued.

The likely answer to your reference to the GPs' Standard Medical Services Contract, Part 18, clause 483 will be that this clause applies to medical treatment and making appointments is is not part of the actual treatment.  I got this reply from the National Audit Office. However, I do not accept it because most surgeries nowadays operate an appointment-only system and I would argue that appointment are an integral part of treatment and clause 483 does apply.

As to further action I see the following options:

Assuming that b) is the case and the surgery does know of some geographical numbers which they have but do not associate it with 0844 you could make a further FOI request asking them to disclose all geographical (landline) numbers in their possession.

The situation vis a vis NEG is more tricky. You could write to NEG, wait for their reply which is almost certainly going to be useless, and go back to surgery saying that you could not get the information you sought and since NEG are contractors to the surgery it is up to the surgery to obtain the information from NEG.

A further option might be an appeal.

Hello Cricketer

You may like to have a look at the table of comparative call charges I compiled, available at:

http://uk.msnusers.com/Premiumratetelephonenumbers/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

Thank you very much for these two posts Sophos.

I think that I will try this approach to the person that tried to fob me off with asking me to contact NEG:

Thank you for your letter asking me go contact NEG.

However, the Freedom of Information Act only covers the right to access of information from public authorities.  NEG are not covered by this act.  You are covered by this act.

Therefore, I respectfully repeat my request to provide me with the 01380 number that your 0844 and 0870 number (now that you are using both) is terminated at.

If you are unaware of your 01380 number then a simple request to NEG from you will provide the answer.  NEG have to know your 01380 number as they connect your 0844 and 0870 numbers to this geographic number - thus ensuring that callers reach your switchboard and nobody else's.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

What do you think?  Can you improve on this?  You seem to have been here as well?

I have not yet had an answer from the  partner that replied.  I shall wait a bit before I chase this, to allow them time to have a 'partners meeting'.

Hello again Cricketer

Have a look at the Sick paying £5 to see a GP thread, the postings of Ricardo and IDB on 23 and 24 May respectively.

It is interesting what Ricardo says.  He got this reply from his surgery:

1. “The release of the underlying phone number could confuse patients, as they would then have two different numbers on which to contact the practice"

From this it is clear that they do know what their underlying  geographical number is.

Since to my knowldge all surgeries who use 0844 numbers are contracted to NEG it is highly unlikely that one surgery knows its underlying geographical number and another does not.  In the case of your surgery  this points to either b) (they are ignorant) or c) (they are lying) - see two posts up.

I think inconsistencies in the replies obtained from NEG contracted surgeries could present openings to strengthen our arguments and should be exploited!

One of the shortcomings of this site is that there are many postings on the same topic which are uncollated and scattered all over (Moderators/Superior Members please note).

There have indeed been numerous postings on this subject (NHS related) and if you have the time I suggest you have a look at them.

As to your draft, perhaps you could include a request that they disclose any 0138 number associated with the surgery.  It would be interesting to know if the local Primary Care Trust (their superior authority), and indeed the doctors themselves when away from the premises, also use the 0844 number for contacting the surgery?

Two good points here.

I shall ask if the PCT or the Doctors use their 0870 or 0844 numbers to contact 'the office' when I ask them for any and all of their geographic numbers.

wrote on May 25^th, 2005 at 9:31am:

One of the shortcomings of this site is that there are many postings on the same topic which are uncollated and scattered all over (Moderators/Superior Members please note).

I'm looking at putting a sticky thread in the chat section listing links to such threads, such as FOI requests, companies, get your own 0870/1, NHS, DVLA and so on.  :)