Following a complaint I sent to Halifax bank about their 0845 number they replied :- "0870 numbers raise funds for the company using it, the longer the customer is waiting, the more revenue the company gets, as they get paid per second the line is in use. This in effect can lead to delinquent behaviour, making it in the company's interest to make the customer wait. We do not use these numbers in the contact centres, believing it to be a negative revenue ploy and totally against our customer promise."But unfortunately then add : -  "08456 and 08457 numbers are lo-call numbers. This means that a customer ringing from anywhere in the country will only be charged at their local rate, as if they were ringing their neighbour." and then the ultimate :- We use these numbers as it enables the majority of our customers to keep their telephone expenses as low as possible."
Needless to say I have pointed out that a 30 min call to their help centre costs 90p whereas if I had been able to use a geog no it would have been 2p - so how is this keeping MY calls low?? As they also said that it costs them money to have 0845, I enquired as to why they were, therefore, acting as 'revenue collectors' on some other company's behalf - because the extra 88p must be going somewhere.  Reply awaited!

Firestop.
They are big users of 0870 themselves.So the writer of the reply is obviously not aware of this, or he is talking through his/her orifice.
eg
Halifax Card Services 08700 600500.
Halifax Share Dealing 08706 000434
Halifax/Bank of Scotland Investments 08706 076771
to name a few.

Point out to them if they really insist on using 0845 they should at least follow the ASA,OFCOM guidelines and tell the caller the true cost of the call.After all they are in the business of giving truthful financial advice,well at least they were!!!

My own little protest will be to revert back from the 'paperless' statements' they encourage us into - to save THEM money!!- and ask for 'paper' communications again.
They choose to make me pay more by insisting on 0845, so I will utilise MY right to cost them extra.  Perhaps if  all customers did this....?

Quote:

My own little protest will be to revert back from the 'paperless' statements' they encourage us into - to save THEM money!!- and ask for 'paper' communications again. They choose to make me pay more by insisting on 0845, so I will utilise MY right to cost them extra.  Perhaps if  all customers did this....?

In theory that sounds like a good idea but if we all did this then it would cost Halifax more money for which they would then consider using an 0870 number to reclaim back the money lost.

Firestop, I would point out what 'local rate' means, with regards 0845: that it only applies on BT non-discounted tariffs, which most of us aren't on!!! (See my post on 0845/0870 rip-off)

I would also point out that other users (most noteably ISPs) make money to pay for their service.

It may be worth referring to the consultation, NTS Options for the future, as this gives some of the basics of what they are and why they can't be reduced. Surely someone with the intelligence to work in a bank must be able to get their heads around it. The full document is over 150 pages long, so I suggest you refer here, to the summary version.

HBOS have replied to me! Firstly they say :-
"Having liased with our Telephony Team, due to the sheer number of calls we generate, I confirm that BT pay us for using their systems and facilities. However,  we do not profit from customers calling us. It is clearly detailed by BT that 0845 numbers are charged at local rate. If you are unhappy at the cost of such calls, you will need to take this up with them".
When I said the statements about 'BT pays them', then 'we make no profit from..' sounds contradictory, the reply came:-  

I appreciate that my statement appears contradictory. However please be assured we do NOT profit from customers calling us. The entire cost of the call is given to BT.
As detailed in my original response, we do force customers to use 0845 numbers as they overall benefit the majority of customers "

So HBOS say they are happy to FORCE customers into paying over-the-odds for their services - because it benefits us!!!!

Unless OFCOM do something about the charging structures for these numbers then we will simply get this attitude from all businesses, and what is the chance of that??  (Porkers might levitate!)

What utter non-sense! ::)

First they say 0870 are revenue sharing, and that's why they don't use them and use 0845 instead. According to them the revenue can lead to "delinquent behaviour, making it in the company's interest to make the customer wait".

Then they contradict that by saying that the do indeed receive revenue!

Agreed, Dave, but they (and all the others) will still get away with it because 'business' runs the agenda.  We will not make any headway because people need to be informed and for this the oxygen of the media is required - but the media is controlled by 'business' and so it's a 'shut-out' for campaigns against.
Our internet site is good for letting off steam, but we are not enough to make these moguls change their whole philosophy. Depressing!!

At the end of the day the only real, significant clout which we consumers have is to use our feet!

If enough customers write to these corrupt entities and state that they are voting with their feet, please close my account/transfer my account etc. and move to honest companies/entities which do not use these tricks to increase their profit, then they will begin to take note.

The problem is as I have pointed out before - APATHY. Most people cannot be bothered to do that!

I just do not do any business with these companies any more, and I tell them why. In most cases when companies I have given my business to for years change to these tricks and I write to them complaining and explaining why I won't be doing any further business with them THEY DO NOT EVEN BOTHER TO REPLY! WHY- because they know they have been caught with their trousers down, and they know they do not intend to go back to being honest, so they prefer to loose my business - because I am only ONE CUSTOMER.

The point strikes me that all the 'advisors' that we speak to and explain the 'rip-off' to - Are they not consumers as well? So why can't they see they are being ripped of when they phone other 0870 companies, in their ordinary home lives?
It is still astonishing to me that so many people are obviously willng to pay all these 0870 charges.  Are we the only ones who read our phone bills, or do most people simply NOT CARE how much services cost?
Depression again :'(

wrote on May 29^th, 2005 at 1:29pm:

The point strikes me that all the 'advisors' that we speak to and explain the 'rip-off' to - Are they not consumers as well? So why can't they see they are being ripped of when they phone other 0870 companies, in their ordinary home lives? It is still astonishing to me that so many people are obviously willng to pay all these 0870 charges.  Are we the only ones who read our phone bills, or do most people simply NOT CARE how much services cost? Depression again :'(

Unfortunately there are people I know who get their phone bill through the letter box, look at the total amount, and think, "yeah, looks about right" and pay it.  

Furthermore, they refuse to switch from BT because it is "unpatriotic to our national call provider" >:( ::)

wrote on May 29^th, 2005 at 2:39pm:

"unpatriotic to our national call provider" >:( ::)

god sakes not as if BT is state owned anymore!

wrote on May 29^th, 2005 at 2:39pm:

Furthermore, they refuse to switch from BT because it is "unpatriotic to our national call provider" >:( ::)

I tried to convince my elderly Mother in law and her sister about the benefits of the cheap carriers as opposed to BT and the reason for not even contemplating cheaper options was, "But we've got BT shares."

They seem to think that, if they didn't pay BT for their calls, their meagre dividend payments would drop!

These are one of the many reasons I fail to have much sympathy for some pensioners who complain about meagre pension payments - the government gives them enough if only they would manage it sensibly. >:(

Oh dear, Smasher!
Methinks you might have offended a sizeable proportion of members with that sweeping, rather childish attack on our esteemed senior citizens, and their ability to cope on the Governments generous handouts!

wrote on May 30^th, 2005 at 2:46pm:

Oh dear, Smasher! Methinks you might have offended a sizeable proportion of members with that sweeping, rather childish attack on our esteemed senior citizens, and their ability to cope on the Governments generous handouts!

I did say some pensioners, not all!  And it isn't childish - it's good judgement and common sense.  I'm not the only one who holds this view by any means!

Don't forget that today's pensioners were yesterday's generation some of whom were care-free and couldn't have cared less about pension payment plans and investments... bit like today's middle-aged citizens, don't you think?  They don't seem to realise that they will age and have to retire sometime soon ::)

Those who used common sense and planned ahead and invested in Pension plans have reaped the rewards.  They shouldn't have to depend on the government to provide for them unless they are disabled, etc.

Most of todays retired lived through the war years, the austerity of the fifties and then, just before retiring find the Chancellor robs their pension funds or have pension companies going bust - it's hardly an 'equitable' life for them, is it Smasher, even for them that DID invest?

If we can get back to the matters in hand!
This morning I got a reply from HBOS, as follows :-


....and it is fair to say, as previously detailed, we do profit from using these numbers.
We have had a number of complaints regarding this matter, and whilst we have no plans to amend the telephone numbers we use, I have passed on your comments accordingly.

So keep up the complaining, at least they are getting some, and admitting 0845 give them profit, as well as 0870.

wrote on May 31^st, 2005 at 10:37am:

If we can get back to the matters in hand! This morning I got a reply from HBOS, as follows :- ....and it is fair to say, as previously detailed, we do profit from using these numbers. We have had a number of complaints regarding this matter, and whilst we have no plans to amend the telephone numbers we use, I have passed on your comments accordingly.

Seems that whilst in previous responses included in this thread they deny revenue, then say they do get revenue, at least they admit that there are other complainants. Although it does seem as though their attidude is to leave it as there aren't that many complaining. Does this mean it's OK, or does this mean that if many aren't aware they're being ripped off it's OK?

Yes, Dave, that seems to be the way they operate.  I would have liked to say that ethically it is indefensible, but, then I remembered, 'ethical' does not appear in bank's dictionaries.
Our only thoughts should be "How do we waken customers up, and get them all to complain"??

wrote on May 31^st, 2005 at 1:56pm:

...I would have liked to say that ethically it is indefensible, but, then I remembered, 'ethical' does not appear in bank's dictionaries...

I believe 'ethical' doesn't appear in majority of companies'/government department dictionaries - not just banks!

err wrong.

It appears in the co-op bank (smile/co-op bank). If you ask them for a geographic number theyll willingly give you it.

HBOS dont deserve my custom, and I wouldnt mind seeing Howards being run over by a crazy frog on a motorcycle!

wrote on Jun 1^st, 2005 at 4:34pm:

err wrong. It appears in the co-op bank (smile/co-op bank). If you ask them for a geographic number theyll willingly give you it.

err wrong again.  I hope (not!).

I hope I'm wrong and they've changed, but for three years I lived in the hill overlooking the Pyramid in Stockport (their call centre) and no one would give me their geographic number, least of all the security guard at the front desk!  :(

HBOS is another matter; I have an 0500 (yes 0500!) number for my personal accounts, and a geo number in Inverness for my business accounts.  That's BoS; Halifax it's all 084x/7x numbers.

wrote on Nov 4^th, 2005 at 10:12pm:

err wrong again.  I hope (not!). I hope I'm wrong and they've changed, but for three years I lived in the hill overlooking the Pyramid in Stockport (their call centre) and no one would give me their geographic number, least of all the security guard at the front desk!  :( HBOS is another matter; I have an 0500 (yes 0500!) number for my personal accounts, and a geo number in Inverness for my business accounts.  That's BoS; Halifax it's all 084x/7x numbers.

try 01695 53760 as a GN for the  08457 212 212
try 0161 477 1927 as a GN for 0870 843 2265
Co-operative Bank
Tel: 0161 832 3456 or 0161 475 7105 or 08457 212 212

helpfull?

This is an interesting quote coming from a bank, and one worth remembering.


Quote:

0870 numbers raise funds for the company using it, the longer the customer is waiting, the more revenue the company gets, as they get paid per second the line is in use. This in effect can lead to delinquent behaviour, making it in the company's interest to make the customer wait.

That was once part of their rationale for justifying 0845 as against 0870

... but as they now refuse to give direct numbers to call centres, and some time ago blocked the automatic tranfer from the old switchboard number out of hours, and have several 0870 numbers thenmselves that they say the relevant departments can't be reached from internally, and internal call transfers sometimes get automatically overridden to the wrong department ...

let's just say they could review their position



As for the Co-op Bank, they quite freely give those and other numbers when asked.

One way to strike back at banks that exploit at every opportunity is to keep changing bank accounts, taking the introductory offers like 0% for 6/9/12 months on credit cards and then at the end of the 6/9/12 months, go off to another.  There is after all plenty of competition; let's make the most of it.

Off topic, I know, but as others have talked about pensioners, here goes:  the real injustice is means testing, so beloved of Gordon Brown.  There are many people who have worked in low paid jobs, thriftily put money by for old age and found after retirement that it buys them a pension just big enough to disqualify them from benefits like pension credit and council tax benefit, etc.  Unless you can put so much money away that you will be way over the thresholds anyway, you may as well go to the pub, buy a new car every couple of years, enjoy foreign holidays and spend it while you can.  Or stuff the private pension scheme that takes so much in 'management' fees and ties your money up till retirement and instead put your spare dosh into buying property.

Over the last few months, Halifax has replaced some of the 0845 numbers with 0345 numbers.

nanstallon wrote on Apr 30^th, 2006 at 6:18pm:

One way to strike back at banks that exploit at every opportunity is to keep changing bank accounts, taking the introductory offers like 0% for 6/9/12 months on credit cards and then at the end of the 6/9/12 months, go off to another.  There is after all plenty of competition; let's make the most of it. Off topic, I know, but as others have talked about pensioners, here goes:  the real injustice is means testing, so beloved of Gordon Brown.  There are many people who have worked in low paid jobs, thriftily put money by for old age and found after retirement that it buys them a pension just big enough to disqualify them from benefits like pension credit and council tax benefit, etc.  Unless you can put so much money away that you will be way over the thresholds anyway, you may as well go to the pub, buy a new car every couple of years, enjoy foreign holidays and spend it while you can.  Or stuff the private pension scheme that takes so much in 'management' fees and ties your money up till retirement and instead put your spare dosh into buying property.

As a follow on I keep an eye on the banks at present Yorkshire Bank are enticing new customers with a £150 intro offer, it is worth looking at :)

bazzerfewi wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2015 at 12:13am:

nanstallon wrote on Apr 30th, 2006 at 6:18pm: One way to strike back at banks that exploit at every opportunity is to keep changing bank accounts, taking the introductory offers like 0% for 6/9/12 months on credit cards and then at the end of the 6/9/12 months, go off to another.  There is after all plenty of competition; let's make the most of it. Off topic, I know, but as others have talked about pensioners, here goes:  the real injustice is means testing, so beloved of Gordon Brown.  There are many people who have worked in low paid jobs, thriftily put money by for old age and found after retirement that it buys them a pension just big enough to disqualify them from benefits like pension credit and council tax benefit, etc.  Unless you can put so much money away that you will be way over the thresholds anyway, you may as well go to the pub, buy a new car every couple of years, enjoy foreign holidays and spend it while you can.  Or stuff the private pension scheme that takes so much in 'management' fees and ties your money up till retirement and instead put your spare dosh into buying property. As a follow on I keep an eye on the banks at present Yorkshire Bank are enticing new customers with a £150 intro offer, it is worth looking at :)

Very useful article here about whats best  now, covers  the £150 intro offer you mention.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/compare-best-bank-accounts