This is a great website using the power of the internet to prevent customers being ripped off.

I would like people to think about the use of non-geographical phone numbers used by charities.  Charities will often use these numbers to generate income.  I know of a specific pet charity that provides a customer advice line using a non-geographical number.  Costs are incurred in providing this service, which are offset by the income from the phone call.  Without this income it would not be possible for the charity to provide this invaluable service.

I therefore consider this a reasonable use of non-geographical phone numbers.  Do the administrators of this site have a policy on listing charity phone numbers?

Mike i am sure the admin guys will reply to your specific question.

But can you tell us if the charity you are referring to.
1.Tell the callers on there site how much it actually costs to phone the NGN number. I presume its 0870.
2.Do they say on the site the income recieved from calls helps to pay for the service.

If they do , thats one of the very few uses of 0870 that i could go along with.

Are you prepared to share the name of the site with us.

wrote on May 26^th, 2005 at 1:08pm:

If they do in my Humble Opinion, thats one of the very rare uses of 0870 that i could go along with.

However, it's a very 'inefficient' way to pay. A daytime call to 0870 costs 7.51p/min on BT. A daytime local call is between 3p and 0p/min, so the service provider is therfore charging a premium of between 4.51p/min and 7.51p/min. This is in return for what rate? 2p or 3p/min maybe. So where's the rest going? Simple, to the telco providing the 0870!

Imagine if banks started charging us like this. They do do this in the form of rip-off charging cash machines.

Quote:

But can you tell us if the charity you are referring to. 1.Tell the callers on there site how much it actually costs to phone the NGN number. I presume its 0870. 2.Do they say on the site the income recieved from calls helps to pay for the service.

I also agree the use of 0870 numbers in these circumstances are ok but can I add to point 1 by bigjohn: Specifically, do they actually say that calls cost anywhere from around 8ppm daytime (BT landline) and simply do not just say calls charged at 'national rate'.  'National Rate' descriptions have been ruled as misleading by ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) and OfCOM.

UPDATE:  Dave also has a good point.  It's the call provider gaining most of the money and not the charity itself!

Perhaps they should consider a 0871 number,or a 09 number.

Dave does raise a good point,but how else could the charity maintain the helpline.Have the Charity given this any thought.

wrote on May 26^th, 2005 at 1:25pm:

Perhaps they should consider a 0871 number,or a 09 number.

I don't know what sort of ratio a typical 09 number has (price caller pays vs revenue paid to service provider), but 0871 may well be the same. At 10p/min, the telco would have to pay the SP at least 7p/min in the daytime and more in e&w.

Yes.The biggest outpayment i have seen on 0871 to an end user was 4.5p a min at peak rate.You got nothing from them for evening or weekend calls though.

wrote on May 26^th, 2005 at 12:36pm:

[...] I would like people to think about the use of non-geographical phone numbers used by charities.  Charities will often use these numbers to generate income.  I know of a specific pet charity that provides a customer advice line using a non-geographical number.  Costs are incurred in providing this service, which are offset by the income from the phone call.  Without this income it would not be possible for the charity to provide this invaluable service. I therefore consider this a reasonable use of non-geographical phone numbers.  Do the administrators of this site have a policy on listing charity phone numbers?

Even the good old Charity Commission has got in on the act - http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/tcc/cctouch.asp lists contact center and minicom numbers that begin 0870. More government exploitation.

A FOI request has already been submitted.

As far as I am concerned, if the government is going to exploit the public, then it is going to have to keep answering these requests. It is not cheap for government bodies and agencies to deal with requests from the public such as FOI and questions of policy. The more FOI and policy questions submitted the better. The 0870 revenue will soon begin to erode. I suspect that, like the FCO, the Charity Commission gets very little revenue from 0870 and its IT department has been mis-sold these numbers as being beneficial - similar to what NEG has been doing with surgeries.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.  The charity in question actually uses 09* numbers for this advice service.  The cost of the call is advised to the customer and is clearly stated on literate and their website.  All other phone numbers are of the geographic variety.  I don’t wish to name the charity since my point was general and not specific to them.

I assume other charities do however use 087* numbers.  I agree totally that ALL organisations, including charities, that use 087* numbers should disclose the cost of the call.  They should be forced to do this by government or telecom regulators.  It would however be a shame if ‘the baby is thrown out with the bathwater’ by targeting charities in campaigning for change.

I also realise that the percentage of the money from the call going to the organisation can sometimes be rather low.  Income for a charity is still however income!

wrote on May 27^th, 2005 at 11:11am:

...The charity in question actually uses 09* numbers for this advice service.  The cost of the call is advised to the customer and is clearly stated on literate and their website....

The reason for this is that they have to make it clear of the call costs and are not able to keep anyone in a queuing system due to government legislation.

It's when they start using 087* numbers for the same thing but don't inform people of the actual call costs involved and keep them queuing just to make more money from us!

Please note that Westie ReHoming does not currently have any telephone equipment sophisticated enough to create a queue!  If you are second caller, it's engaged I'm afraid!

Lee Johnson

Come on guys.
Which is the most effective revenue making method from phone calls, that won't earn a fortune for the Telco ?   ::)

Let's have a comparison table with details of company, number type, number hire charge, revenue return, minimum contract period, (etc.) so we can see how much these thieving Telco's are getting.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 11:51am:

Please note that Westie ReHoming does not currently have any telephone equipment sophisticated enough to create a queue!  If you are second caller, it's engaged I'm afraid! Lee Johnson

Why did you come to this place if you did not want criticism.  You did something very stupid by asking your callers to pay you say £1.50 for say a 20 minute call of which you only get 30p when if you had been a competent and responsible organisation you could at least have derived 60p from that 20 minute call by shopping around for a better 0870 deal.  Also if your aim is to put people off calling you and to derive as much income as possible then why did you not go for an 0871 number which costs the caller 10p per minute at all times and pays you 5p per minute at all times?  But as with 0870 you are still not forced to reveal or declare the extra call cost to callers unlike an 09 prefixed number.

Also if you think getting money from your callers is actually a sane strategy then why not go the whole hog and register for a £1.50 per minute 0906 premium rate line.  That would certainly put off the unwanted callers!

You went this route in reality because at the time you were obviously conned into believing that 0870 was the same as the ordinary BT national rate for other calls even though even at that time BT discount schemes like BT Option 3 already existed and excluded 0870 calls.  Also even now you rely on the ignorance of your callers stil thinking 0870 is the same as a geographic number and unethically profiteering from them in this way.  The reason of course that you don't get an 0906 number is because you know that where people are actually they are being ripped off they avoid it like the plague.  But unfortunately with 0870 a lot of members of the public are not aware of the ripoff yet.  So you and BT cynically take advantage of their ignorance.

Are you an ardent Sunday churchgoer by any chance.  Do you shake hands with your fellow members of the congregation believing as they do that god is with you in everything you do in your life and that if you prey a little bit more it will all come right for you?

Your posts bear all the hallmarks of such a personaliy type.

Why have the latest posts by myself and Westier in this thread once again been removed by a disgracefully cynical forum management not prepared to acknowledge its own actions.

The latest posts by Westier confirmed their geographic alternative numbers and obtaining these alternatives is a primary objective of this site.  Why have they again been removed by stealth by the forum management.

Stop this nonsense now or I will resign as a member of this forum and start my own rival www.saynotoofcom.org discussion forum.

yeah, where have the 'fun' posts gone.

This IS censorship of the OfCon kind. Oh wait no OfCon just ignores everyone and comes up with its own agenda, but wait isnt that what deleting posts are - saynoto0870.com own agenda.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 11:51am:

Please note that Westie ReHoming does not currently have any telephone equipment sophisticated enough to create a queue!  If you are second caller, it's engaged I'm afraid! Lee Johnson

Wouldn't use of 1571 create a 'pseudo-queue'?


mc661 wrote on Feb 15^th, 2006 at 7:03pm:

yeah, where have the 'fun' posts gone. This IS censorship of the OfCon kind. Oh wait no OfCon just ignores everyone and comes up with its own agenda, but wait isnt that what deleting posts are - saynoto0870.com own agenda.

There is, indeed, a very nasty smell around here - perhaps it's a westie dog!.

wrote on Jun 8^th, 2005 at 6:44pm:

.....Do you shake hands with your fellow members of the congregation believing as they do that god is with you in everything you do in your life and that if you prey a little bit more it will all come right for you?

A beautiful careless mis-spelling (prey/pray ) caused the final sentence to be absolutely perfect, NGM ;) ;).

Why is the geographic alternative for the 0870 number used by www.westierehoming.me.uk being repeatedly and persistently deleted day after day from the Unverified list by the administrators/moderators of this website?

Has www.westierhoming.me.uk agreed to pay an annual fee not to have its number listed on the website as clearly this could be another nice little earner for our silent Forum Owner Daniel. ;) ;)

Yet again after I added an alternative number for the www.westierehoming.me.uk 0870 phone number to the Unverified List it was removed without any post in this thread to explain why.

DaveM is the only moderator in this forum who I could imagine behaving in such a rude, unexplained and abrupt fashion.  This site is about providing geographic alternatives so why does it keep getting removed?  Does DaveM own a Westie or what exactly? >:( >:( :o

Dave,

I don't accept any of the arguments you have given below for refusing to list the geographic alternative number for Westie Rehoming.

The fact that they keep large numbers of yappie little dogs means that it is we who should be scared of them and not vica versa.  Also if somebody wishes to be abusive to the www.westierehoming.me.uk people  they can do this just as well on an 0870 number as on a geographic phone number.  If their only motivation was to hide their real phone number and be able to reroute calls when on holiday etc then they would use an 0845 number.  We have already heard from their website developer, Westier, that their main motivation in using 0870 is to exploit their punters for as much revenue as possible.

Many of the alternative numbers listed on this site are only for moderately small companies staffed by a few people.  The whole point of this site is to make life tough for people who use these abusive 0870 numbers.  Also if these people had wanted their geograophic phone number kept secret then why were neither of their phone numbers (including the one dedicated to their Westier kennel operation) ex-directory?  Had they been ex-directory I would have been unable  to find them.

I am very disappointed in the site management removing a number in this way and deleting wholesale large chunks of a thread merely to protect the revenues of 0870 scammers.  And all without any acknowledgement that this had even been done. >:( >:( :o

NGM


Dave wrote on Feb 28^th, 2006 at 1:20am:

NGM wrote on Feb 27th, 2006 at 11:58pm: However I can see no reason whatsoever for refusing to list the geographic alternative of the 0870 number, which is answered with the same announcement, in our database when this site is dedicated to providing geographic alternatives for 0870 scammers (of which www.westierhoming.me.uk are a particularly nasty and incorrigible example). Since there is no reverse lookup facility from a uk geographic phone number to an address I don't see how it can be argued that listing a geographic alternative number compromises the security of these people and also they listed their name and an address in Swindon on their website which was how I got to their geographic number www.192.com etc and their firstname and surname. But the 0870 number is a 'virtual number'. If it attracts nuisance calls it's easy to change it without changing the underlying number (which most 'personal' contacts will have). Quote: ....  Also it is ridiculous to claim that they are under a security threat when nobody on this site has ever resorted to more than a letter or an email against the actions of 0870 scammers. The security aspect has to do with the fact that they keep dogs and nothing to do with their 0870 telephone number! [quote]But if you now say that if we list a geographic alternative for an 0870 number and the people concerned are upset about it we will remove it from the database then that will be the start of Sky and all the main abusers making the same request. ...

But the likes of Sky are faceless corporations. It is highly unlikely that Mr Murdoch will route his 0870 numbers to his home phone to be answered personally. Even if that were the case, a multimillion pound business mogul is completely different to those who run the Westie charity.


Quote:

And it was Westie Rehoming who chose to stick their head above the parapet in the first place to crow about their reasons for using an 0870 number and it was only this that led to my quest to find their geographic number alternative.

I believe it was a member of the team who "goed it alone." The couple running the charity were unaware of this.

Dave[/quote]

wrote on Feb 15^th, 2006 at 4:44pm:

Why have the latest posts by myself and Westier in this thread once again been removed by a disgracefully cynical forum management not prepared to acknowledge its own actions. The latest posts by Westier confirmed their geographic alternative numbers and obtaining these alternatives is a primary objective of this site.  Why have they again been removed by stealth by the forum management. Stop this nonsense now or I will resign as a member of this forum and start my own rival www.saynotoofcom.org discussion forum.

Hey. The same's happened to me in another thread.  

Why does it happen?  

Is it a fault or is it one of the moderators removing them because he happens not to agree with something you've written?

bill wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 3:03pm:

Why does it happen?   Is it a fault or is it one of the moderators removing them because he happens not to agree with something you've written?

Obviously it depends on the post in question, but personal attacks on forum members are not welcome on here. They play no part in constructive discussions and only serve to create animosity between members.

How do you suggest the moderators deal with threads that are spiraling into a slanging match?

Dave wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 3:31pm:

bill wrote on Apr 6th, 2006 at 3:03pm: Why does it happen?   Is it a fault or is it one of the moderators removing them because he happens not to agree with something you've written? Obviously it depends on the post in question, but personal attacks on forum members are not welcome on here. They play no part in constructive discussions and only serve to create animosity between members. How do you suggest the moderators deal with threads that are spiraling into a slanging match?

Well, in the interest of '.... tough on the causes of crime' (a soundbite which mc661 appears to have forgotten), I'd start by suggesting that you deleted the (causal) abusive post by a so-called Senior Member like this one:


mc661 wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 1:38am:

sorry I have what in my sig? Prehaps if you could be bothered to look further into the number (lazy sod) youd come across this statement http://www.steveandcompany.co.uk/statement0871.html

I see part of my post has mysteriously disappeared from the (now locked) 0871 9 10 10 10 missed call scam? thread.

I'll insert it again below and highlight the words which are allegedly 'personal/offensive' and simply (as Tony would say) ask why are we now being subjected to communist-style censorship on this site?.  There is nothing personal or offensive about the below comment.  It is merely anti-politics.


Quote:

I recall mc661 admitting that he is a politician of some sort. I wonder which party? Clearly, a two-faced one. That narrows it down then. NOT.

Dave wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 3:31pm:

How do you suggest the moderators deal with threads that are spiraling into a slanging match?

They should always send a Private Message telling the person concerned that they have completely removed their post and why.

Then at least it wouldn't just look like the forum was faulty or had been hacked and people would be aware they had done something that upset the forum moderator.

bill wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 4:27pm:

Well, in the interest of '.... tough on the causes of crime' (a soundbite which mc661 appears to have forgotten), I'd start by suggesting that you deleted the (causal) abusive post by a so-called Senior Member like this one:

I had wondered why bill got repremanded, but not mc661 for the original abuse.


wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 4:44pm:

They should always send a Private Message telling the person concerned that they have completely removed their post and why.

I think that's an excellent suggestion!  :)

trevord wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 5:35pm:

bill wrote on Apr 6th, 2006 at 4:27pm: Well, in the interest of '.... tough on the causes of crime' (a soundbite which mc661 appears to have forgotten), I'd start by suggesting that you deleted the (causal) abusive post by a so-called Senior Member like this one: I had wondered why bill got repremanded, but not mc661 for the original abuse. wrote on Apr 6th, 2006 at 4:44pm: They should always send a Private Message telling the person concerned that they have completely removed their post and why. I think that's an excellent suggestion!  :)

Ive just had a PM from a mod telling me off.
As for the charity numbers, I think that dave must have had a C&D or somthing from westie or a backhander (hey dave dontate it to the party and become Lord 0870)

mc661 wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 6:02pm:

Ive just had a PM from a mod telling me off. As for the charity numbers, I think that dave must have had a C&D or somthing from westie or a backhander (hey dave dontate it to the party and become Lord 0870)

But my thread slagging off Daniel's dodgy deal with the even more dodgy www.freepay.com website people was never censored or removed.

I always detected that Dave was rather in support of my views on that matter though.

mc661 wrote on Apr 6^th, 2006 at 6:02pm:

Ive just had a PM from a mod telling me off. As for the charity numbers, I think that dave must have had a C&D or somthing from westie or a backhander (hey dave dontate it to the party and become Lord 0870)

Suggesting such a thing must be offensive to the moderator and, I assume, will therefore be deleted in the next few moments.

The amusing thing is Google finds the Westie number in less than a second so there is utterly no point in repeatedly deleting it!

Seems as though somebody keeps having their posts deleted in this thread as I keep getting an update email but no new messages appear in the thread? :-?

wrote on Apr 7^th, 2006 at 9:43am:

Seems as though somebody keeps having their posts deleted in this thread as I keep getting an update email but no new messages appear in the thread? :-?

On this occasion, it might not be as suspicious as you think - see this message and my response to it.
Is there something going funny on the board?  :-?
When I tried to access it an hour or so ago, it was not available.  :-?

Sergeant121 posted a one liner on this thread, yet it has gone.
On a geo request page, he posted the info for Ecco shoes 1 min before me, and that post has disappeared.
I'm glad others have noticed the same with this person, I was starting to think I had a problem!

Has our latest recruit done something to P off somebody already, or is there another reason? His first few posts have only been helpful from what I've seen


Edited  1427hrs

Just tried to find him on the members list, and unless I'm looking incorrectly, then he's gone.
Does that mean that if we resign our membership, all of our posts get deleted? That could throw some threads into confusion.

a very nice man wrote on Apr 7^th, 2006 at 1:13pm:

Just tried to find him on the members list, and unless I'm looking incorrectly, then he's gone.

He's still on the Members List: page 385 when sorted by Date Registered.
His profile is here and says zero posts.
Perhaps a moderator can explain the disappearing posts?