Dear SayNoTo0870 and all readers of this site,

How can we attempt to challenge this unfair rip-off ?  Who do we campaign to ?  Is it Ofcom ?

Is it possible that interested readers of this site could get something organised (if this isn't already being done)?  This needn't be complicated nor time consuming.  Perhaps we could put together a standard email that raises the issue and calls for action from the relevant authority ?  

Imagine if Ofcom or whoever it is, then receives these standard complaints in 100s, 1000s or even more.  Maybe I'm being naive but something would have to be done, if only the local number was given alongside the 0870/0845 eqivalent ?

It's got to be worth a try. What are we waiting for ?  

Regards
Garry

Such action has been discussed before and standard letters/e-mails/faxes were not viewed favourably.

Multiple identical e-mails would amount to spamming - hardly an action likely to endear senders to the campaign (by all means write or e-mail your own individual complaint or point of view though).

wrote on Jun 6^th, 2005 at 8:02pm:

Such action has been discussed before and standard letters/e-mails/faxes were not viewed favourably.

I don't usually post my emails to companies on here for this reason. The best advice I can give is you read some of the posts and form your own opinions, then you can write in your own words.

Thanks Bill and Dave for your replies.

I too was pretty skeptical of standard complaint letters until recently.  If you're registered with the MakePovertyHistory website you'll know from time to time you'll get an update email which provides you with the ability to email Tony Blair, Gordon Brown etc.  The contents of the email are already laid out, although you can add to it if you wish, and you simply add your email address and click send - it literally takes seconds.

From from spamming, I believe this delivers a very clear message and when sent in the order of 50,000+ (as has happened) it delivers a very strong message too.  I don't see why these techniques cannot be useful to the SayNoTo0870 site, and to a wider campaign of challenging this issue.

Any further responses would be appreciated.

Regards
Garry

You have a good point but whether or not the letter varies from person to person should not make a difference to the overall service we are *meant* to receive from OfCOM.

I don't believe that whether OfCOM receive 1,000's of complaints written in very similiar format, or receive 1,000's of complaints written in different formats, they treat differently and pay more attention to.  I suspect they would pass a few comments around the office that the letters are very similiar but each complaint would still have to be acknowledged.

I suspect though we would have more of a response to people just willing to add their own personal details to a "standard" letter than them having to write their own letters.  I believe OfCOM would receive more complaints from us if it was in a standard format that we slightly changed, compared to us having to write completely our own letter - the conclusion of my own letter would basically be the same as that of the "standard" letter except OfCOM would receive more of these standard letters.

Now assuming for statistical reasons OfCOM have to publish the most complained about topic - this I suspect would be our fight to saynoto 0870 or at least better regulating of it, then this I hope would grab other peoples attention like newspapers, Which? to publish it in their publications, etc which in turn (hopefully) they would join our fight until such a time as OfCOM did something about it (probably the year 2020 though - lol).

I guess what i'm trying to say its down to media attention and making a big deal of it is really the only thing that is going help us persuade OfCOM to actually do something about it instead of taking years to "look into it"

I'm aware of Times' piece the other week and aware that Which? have been made aware of our fight but decide not to do anything.  I suspect this would change though if this grabbed media attention more.

Does any of this actually make sense or am I rambling on a bit?

My post on 25th may under heading NTS review stated the same-if all members of this site complained then some reaction must be forthcoming.  I do feel however that a decision has already been reached on the future of NTS after talking to Geoff Brighton of Ofcom-pretty much status quo with a few adjustments.  Change of description of national and local rate calls but not much else.  I do feel that if everyone who accesses this site took the trouble to e-mail Geoff Brighton he may get the message that people are not happy-but then again as the Government control Ofcom and the Gov are one of tjhe biggest users of non-geo numbers I think that the flying pig exhibited following my post of 25th may (not technical enough myself to produce this) is very appropriate.

Thanks again for the replies.  I'm very much a newbie when it comes to this issue and I'm realising how little I know compared to you guys.

Bbb_uk comments above made much sense – that it’s vital to get the issue as much attention as possible.  I’m sure many people share our view on this issue but to compose and write/email takes some time and effort.  But if SayNoTo0870 could be developed to automate this processs (akin to the MakePovertyHistory site), this could make a big difference.  This site could then email all members inviting them to follow a link to complain - taking all the effort out of wording the complaint and sending it to the right place.

Having said that, Davis's comments above show that my suggestions may be too late.  Then again, what have we got to lose ?  Perhaps if this concerted campaign could be highlighted on other linked websites such as MoneySavingsExpert, then potentially the number of complaints could soar ?

But then again, what do I know ?  Thanks again for the replies  and for putting me in the picture on this issue.

Regards
Garry

It does need a mass of complaints to companies. Having just written to my insurance company, they just wash their hands of the issue. They quote me the prices and that's it.

No acknowledgement of the points I put to them about whether they receive revenue or not. It's a 'couldn't care less' attitude.

It seems that companies are happy to do what they can to push up their profits, even if this means exploiting the public's ignorance. They will only do anything about it when they really have to. It's pure GR££D

The only 'benefit' is that, to a large firm, the cost of replying by letter is said to be in the region of £12 - £20 these days.

For a brief moment, it makes you feel better - and then you realise that customers dialling the 0870 numbers are paying.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:51pm:

Thanks Bill and Dave for your replies. The contents of the email are already laid out, although you can add to it if you wish, and you simply add your email address and click send - it literally takes seconds. From from spamming, I believe this delivers a very clear message and when sent in the order of 50,000+ (as has happened) it delivers a very strong message too.  I don't see why these techniques cannot be useful to the SayNoTo0870 site, and to a wider campaign of challenging this issue.

Garry, a number religous groups tried this approach earlier this year when they tried to get Ofcom to ban Jerry Springer the Opera. Ofcom received around 20,000 complaints mostly standard letters. From what I read they all received standard responses back.

The use of email and other electronic formats now make it easier for companies to collect all the complaints together and press a button to send the response out, making this type of action pointless.

I've just moved this from another discussion to this one.  I don't think this suggestion is spam as it's aimed at raising awareness of an issue that is important to many people, mainly because they don't know about it and it will go to contacts that people can genuinely say they know.  This was my suggestion:

Apologies if someone has suggested this before but surely a great way to bring this in to the open is viral email?  A well-crafted email covering what the issue is (0870 pricing, cheaper to call the US, companies taking money from customers without asking, etc), some of the perpetrators (Argos, Virgin (which uses 1-800 in the US), Sky, Friends Provident, etc), links to an 0870 provider, the Ofcom press release and saynoto 0870, etc, why the media hasn't taken up the cudgel, could be published on saynoto0870.  This could be cut and pasted into an email and forwarded to people's address books with a request for them to forward to their contacts.  I think it could work very well and highlight this issue to a mainly unaware audience.  I don't mind doing a first draft for review if anyone thinks it's a good idea.

[glb]Garry, a number religous groups tried this approach earlier this year when they tried to get Ofcom to ban Jerry Springer the Opera. Ofcom received around 20,000 complaints mostly standard letters. From what I read they all received standard responses back.  [/glb]

Well, it may have been 20,000 standard replies, but thats 20,000 pieces of A4 paper, 20,000 envelopes, all going through the franking machine at 21p each (I assume it's sent 2nd class!!), someone or more than one person to administer the address creation software.

All you need to do, is ask for a reply in the post, rather than e-mail, from some of these big companies.  Each complaint costs them money to deal with, even if it's a standard letter.  They will soon realise that dealing with complaints about costs of their 0870 number, is more hassle than it's worth.

We have already seen evidence in this site already.  People working for companies have come on, and registered here, and voiced their own opinions, and even accused us of either being a bunch of whingers, ringing the wrong grographic number, and taking up too much of their company time dealing with these complaints.

Also, don't forget all those FOI requests that people have posted in this site.  Each of these have required someone to personally deal with the issue and e-mail/post a reply for each request.

My own experience is that most simply do not bother to reply, and that is because it is indefensible.  Those that have replied have gven erroneous information (Argos sent me an email saying that 0870 cost the same as a LOCAL call!) because they don't understand themselves.  That nice airline Virgin gave 9/11 as one of the reasons to use 0870... I think that a viral email (like a chain letter, only better because it doesn't offer immortality or the death of a pet through forwarding or not doing so) is the answer.  It raises awareness and prompts more and more people to think about the issue. This is not political, nothing is being sold, it is merely interesting and useful information.

Hi Phoneuser.

Actually in the circumstances I think that your idea is quite a good one potentially. Are you suggesting that you would do a draft of the words to be used only or are you suggesting that you could do a draft of the complete e-mail with all of its necessary components?

I think that in the face of Ofcom's continued refusal to take the proper regulatory action which is required under the Acts that the time has come for more drastic action to bring these scams to the public attention.

In fact perhaps even a trojan which dials an 0870 number and then delivers a message on this publicising the scams might be next after that, with a mailer which sends out the message to all in the address book? That would really get the point home!

Hi gdh82,

This has already been tried by http://0870abuse.tripod.com
and the result is essentially apathy; that is one of the issues you are fighting - the apathy of the average person towards this. Most just do not want to know, so it does not work.

As a councillor I spose I could get free postage to forward letters from my 'constituents' to ofcom.

That would sort out the postage costs, tax payer paying for postage! My Political Group also has an auto envelope stuffer.

Dear Dorf,

Yes, I am suggesting that I draft an email for people to lift and send to their contacts, and the companies concerned if they wish.  They can amend if they wish (but not add anything offensive, libellous or factually incorrect).  There is apathy out there but if you amaze enough people with some of the facts it might work.  And it costs nothing. What is really satisfying is when it comes back to you!  And for anyone who is worried about the term 'viral' email, this simply refers to the way it spreads, they do not contain any viruses.  Give me a couple of days and I'll put one together and post it here.  If you want you can give me a few bullet points of of key points about 0870 to compare with my own thoughts.  

We can start sending and report on feedback from those who are not yet aware of the 0870 issue.

Regards

Phoneuser

Dear All,

Thanks to Phone User, Dorf, Grimp, MC661 and Shiggaddi for your recent responses.

I am a newbie to this issue and appreciate others putting me in the picture but it seems to me that we can do nothing on the basis that everyone's apathetic anyway or we can try something.

Thanks to Dorf for pointing out an earlier attempt of organising some collective response:  http://0870abuse.tripod.com  In my opinion, though, the idea is great but the execution is flawed.  The site is too busy, the complaint letter far too long and too wordy - I found myself losing interest and I want to complain!!!  I believe it would be better if it was much shorter, straight to the point.  Make it personal (do you already pay for free local or national calls ?), make it clear what the problem is (you're still being charged excessively for local and national calls) and make it clear what people can do about it (i.e complain to Ofcom) and keep it as easy on the eye as possible.

I'm with PhoneUser and I'd be really interested to see your draft viral email.  (http://0870abuse.tripod.com  is a valuable worth resource for this).  Is it possible to create a viral email that includes a button which automatically emails Ofcom for the user (just like the MakePoveryHistory emails if you're aware of them).  I'm sure many people don't agree with this consumer rip-off but we need to make it as easy as possible for people to express their dissatisfaction (e.g enter your email address so they can be updated on the campaign and invite the reader simply to click to complain).

It must be slightly irritating for those of you who have an history with trying to tackle this issue and then some newbie comes along saying lets complain, lets complain!   Still, maybe I'm still being naive but what else can we do ?  

Garry

[quote author=Shiggaddi

Well, it may have been 20,000 standard replies, but thats 20,000 pieces of A4 paper, 20,000 envelopes, all going through the franking machine at 21p each (I assume it's sent 2nd class!!), someone or more than one person to administer the address creation software.

All you need to do, is ask for a reply in the post, rather than e-mail, from some of these big companies.  Each complaint costs them money to deal with, even if it's a standard letter.  They will soon realise that dealing with complaints about costs of their 0870 number, is more hassle than it's worth.quote]

I work in a large organisation and if someone sends in a request by email they get a response via email even if they request the response by post. From what I read about Ofcom their CEO has promised to cut costs. I can't see them allowing 20,000 responses going out via the post.

Just thought of another great idea.

Everyone gets mailshots from companies, usually with a reply paid envelope.

Most people just throw the whole thing in the bin, sometimes unopened, some people write "return to sender" and stick it back in the postbox, to protest about junk mail.

Well, next time a company wants your custom, and it is normal practise for customer services to be on an 0870 number, then perhaps send them a covering letter saying that you don't wish to do business with someone operating on an 0870 number, and returning the junk back to them, in the reply paid envelope.  They may or not reply, but they will have to accept the junk mail back, and dispose of it, and someone will read the letter, which they have paid to receive.

However, the protest letter must include the points raised by gdh82, such as making the company aware that 0870 and 0845 are not included in inclusive mobile, and landline call packages, and contacting customer services on 0870 is therefore more expensive, and also bring up the subject that we know big companies actually receive revenue from the calls, and why should calls to most big businesses be charged at a higher rate than calls to your friends.

most of the "Business Response Reply" (reply paid envelope's) are paid for by weight and not by individal item.

Take Barclaycard, I think due to the amount of those reply envlopes they get, royal mail charges them something along the lines of 0.005p (thats 1 half  of a penny per item beacuse they charge based on weight.

Other companies, may have different tarrifs but the advantage of them "Business Response Reply" is that Royal Mail charge extremly low prices once you hit a certain amount recived, but they charge around 15p per item till then.

Hi gdh82 and Phoneuser.

If you draft a shorter version of a complaint which you feel is "less busy" we could look at putting that on the site with the "button" to Ofcom. By the way this site now comes up exceptionally well on all search engines, but not quite so well on Google anymore since their new algorithm was installed (making their engine more sponsor oriented). If you try searches for 0870 abuse, 0870 racket, 0870 rip-off, 0870 scam, 0870 scandal, 070 PNS abuse, 0844 abuse, 0845 abuse etc. you will see its current ranking.

The difficulty with these scams is however that the whole scenario is now complicated. That is the strategy behind it - to make it complicated so that ordinary punters cannot see the wood from the trees. That is why so many people still fail to understand it. This gives the problem that you cannot explain all of the facets in a few words!

See what you can suggest.

Some people might think this a bit wordy, but if anyone wants to shorten it they can.  My suggestion is that it is copied and pasted into an email and sent to email contacts, for them to send on to whoever.  It will either fall dead on its feet or it will spread very quickly. Please don't add anyting offensive or libellous or it will lose its impact.  If anyone thinks it's already libellous please respond, but remember, libel only exists where an untruth has been told and I don't think that has been done here...

Any comments before we start bunging 'em out?

----------------------------------------------------------


This email is brought in to you in the interest of consumer power, you are unlikely to read about this in the media for reasons you will realise after reading this...

You may have noticed that lots of companies are using 0870/0871 numbers.  But did you know why?  It's because they charge you through your phone bill, up to 4p per minute, every time you call them, even to wait in a queue listening to ads about their services! Consequently the calls are charged at a much higher rate so they can get your money. It's like a shop charging people to go in, or worse because people don't actually know that they are paying - and  would also be paying to stand in a queue outside the shop. A market with the number of intermediaries that higher rate calls has is a sure sign of cynical exploitative businesses, just go to www.google.co.uk and type in 0870 and you will see how big this has become and how even well-known 'trusted' brands have joined in.

For example, if a BT Together customer calls Argos on its 0870 'customer-service' number (it doesn't give any others) during the day,  they pay over 7.5p per minute.  Argos used to claim that this was a 'national' rate call but a regular national call is actually just 3p per minute.  If people call at the weekend they pay 1.5p per minute. If they call a real national number at this time they pay 5.5p per HOUR.  This is all so that  0870 users can earn out of customers' ignorance of this situation. And many are earning £hundreds of thousands as customers hang on for call centres to answer and then take part in lengthy calls. Let's just make that clear, you pay anyone who uses an 0870 number to take your call, even if it's a complaint about a product or delivery - you pay them to take your call even whilst you're waiting to speak to someone. 0870 numbers are not included in telephone companies' discount deals, nor within mobile minutes.

But Argos isn't the only big name at it: P&O, Friends Provident, BBC, Virgin (which uses 0870 in the UK but free access 1-800 in the US, American consumers would not deal with a company that made them pay to speak to it!) and a whole host of others. South Eastern Trains' advice for disabled people is on an 0870 number (0870 6000 2211) but being a railway company it is incorrect and the number actually belongs to a shower manufacturer...   The Department of Health has just stopped doctors and medical centres from doing this to patients, yes, even they were not able to resist doing this.  A link to the Ofcom release:

http://www.dh.gov.uk/PublicationsAndStatistics/PressReleases/PressReleasesNotices/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4104023&chk=JdW4bw

0870 companies give all sorts of excuses.  They might say they want a common number, but they could do this with another number, even 0800 or 0845 (0845 is cheaper, just a smaller rip-off).  However, there's no chance for them to take your money if they did this.  They might also use the old chestnut that it helps to keep prices down elsewhere; this is nonsense, they will apply the same price rises and anyway companies should not take money customers without telling them. They'll also say that people could use the internet but that doesn't excuse taking money secretly from those who can't or when it's not convenient.  Some companies have even said that they use 0870 to make it fairer for people who don't live near them!  Virgin claimed that it uses 0870 partly as result of aiding customer contact after 9/11...

This issue has hardly been covered by the media because their advertisers use these numbers, and Daily Express readers please note, so do do some publications.  You could call BBC Watchdog, but it asks its viewers to supply material on an 0870 number.

What you can do:  not deal with 0870 users, ask an 0870 user for a 'normal telephone number', complain to Ofcom, register your views on www.saynoto0870.com.  And forward this email to as many people as you want.  The media will not tell this story, consumers need to warn each other.

I did think it a bit wordy, my suggestion might be:-

Please take a moment to read this email, it is not spam, it is INFORMATION.

Do you notice that almost all companies you want to contact are starting using 0870 numbers?
Do you know why?  THEY will always tell you it is for YOUR benefit!!
You will not find this scam discussed in the media - because THEY are all using these numbers as well!!

SO WHAT IS THIS SCAM?
When you want to enquire about a product, or service, if you can dial on an 'ordinary' number, eg 01234.... then the cost will be at most 3p per min on BT - but it will be 7.5p if it's an 0870 number.  However this is made even worse if you subscribe to a 'package' that gives you free call allowance - as 0870 are always EXCLUDED from the 'free' or discounted list.

Consider the amount of time they will 'keep you on hold' and your costs multiply significantly, and the companies themselves are getting around 4p a minute - just to play music to you!  It is a business making immense profits from your enquiries - like charging you to enter a shop.

The only way this covert operation by companies (and Government departments, another of Gordon's stealth taxes!!) can be halted is if more people learn how they are being conned - hence the reason for this email.

WHAT CAN WE DO?
Do not deal with 0870 companies, look on  www.saynoto0870.com for alternatives, join the debates;  complain to Ofcom. And forward this email to as many people as possible.
The media will not tell this story, consumers need to warn each other.

Dear Omy,  Thank you for that.  I'm going to use a mixture to test which works best.  I have made some slight amends to yours, I hope you don't mind.  And I cut out the spam warning as so many of my spams do start that way!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

You might have noticed that many companies you want to contact are starting using 0870 numbers?

Do you know why?  You will not find this scam discussed in the media - because they are using these numbers too!!

So what is this scam?

When you want to enquire about a product, or service, if you can dial on an 'ordinary' number, eg 01234.... then the cost will be at most 3p per min for the average BT customer - but it will be 7.5p if it's an 0870 number.  However this is made even worse if you subscribe to a 'package' that gives you free call allowance - as 0870 numbers are always EXCLUDED from the 'free' or discounted list.

Consider the amount of time these companies 'keep you on hold' and your costs multiply significantly, as the companies themselves are getting around 4p a minute from the call revenue - just to play music or their ads to you!  You are paying them to take your oder or listen to your complaint. It is a scam making immense profits from your enquiries - like charging you to enter a shop.

The only way this covert operation by companies (and Government departments, another of Gordon's stealth taxes!!) can be halted is if more people learn how they are being conned - hence the reason for this email.

WHAT CAN WE DO?
Do not deal with 0870 companies, look on  www.saynoto0870.com for alternatives, join the debates;  complain to Ofcom. And forward this email to as many people as possible.  
The media will not tell this story, consumers need to warn each other.

I agree with Phoneuser about the removing the bit telling the reader this is not spam. I have made a couple of changes to your message, which I have put in italics. On the whole I think it gets to the point. I'm sure that dorf will be pleased as it even mentions the queuing aspect!


Quote:

You might have noticed that many companies you want to contact are starting using 0870 numbers? Do you know why?  You will not find this scam discussed in the media - because they are using these numbers too!! So what is this scam? When you want to enquire about a product, or service, if you can dial on an 'ordinary' geographical number, eg 01234.... then the cost will be at most 3p per min for the average BT customer - but it will be 7.5p if it's an 0870 number. Other providers usually undercut BT's geographical rates, but for not calls to 0870; typically they cost the same or more than with BT. However, this is made even worse if you subscribe to a 'package' that gives you free call allowance - as 0870 numbers are always EXCLUDED from the 'free' or discounted list. Consider the amount of time these companies 'keep you on hold' and your costs multiply significantly, as the companies themselves in all likelyhood are being paid revenue. This can be anything upto about 4.5p a minute - just to play music or their ads to you!  You are paying them to take your oder or listen to your complaint. It is a scam making immense profits from your enquiries - like charging you to enter a shop. The only way this covert operation by companies (and Government departments, another of Gordon's stealth taxes!!) can be halted is if more people learn how they are being conned - hence the reason for this email. WHAT CAN WE DO? Do not deal with 0870 companies, look on  www.saynoto0870.com for alternatives, join the debates;  complain to Ofcom. And forward this email to as many people as possible.   The media will not tell this story, consumers need to warn each other.

Nice one. Please report back on how you think it's working and what people are saying.

Regards

Phoneuser

Yes Dave I think your version is an improvement, but I also think that it does not get the whole story across.

It is not that I will be pleased that queuing is mentioned, it is that I believe that it is at the foundation of this whole scam, and is where most of the big money is being made. (Check the spelling though - you have a few typos).

Yes, Dorf, when I wrote out this abbreviated version, it was to be just that - if we put a lengthy epistle in a 'mailshot' folk who are not as 'in the know about NGN's (unlike us!) will get quickly bored and give up on it.
So it is impossible to get everything across at one go.
Ideally a 'one sentence' appeal would be the ultimate 'grabber' - but that's not possible!
However, short and attention grabbing is the key (I think) plenty of opportunity to give all the facts once you have the attention.

Agree with the modifications made by Dave & Phoneuser.

My own views very quickly - firstly as stated by dorf, the concept of queuing is critical here. This is how and why the users of rip-off numbers generate so much revenue. I suggest you try to incorporate this aspect.

Secondly I would be inclined to ditch the part about "Gordon's stealth taxes". My own belief is that it is not a government concerted effort to 'tax' people, rather a demonstration of clueless civil servants, advisers and consultants and companies providing untruthful statements regarding charge rates to 'sell' numbers to government and others. I may be wrong about this, but nevertheless, the use of a pseudo-political statement may alienate some people due to its inherent bias.

Thirdly, if possible, provide links to some *factual* and independent resources that detail the scam - the Ofcom site springs to mind, for example the responses to the consultations - some of these are excellent.

Finally, again agreeing with dorf, spelling and grammar *must* be right. No room for error here.

Might be an idea when we can work out the final copy, which we can e-mail to all our friends, that it's listed as one of the hot topics at the front of the page, separately by either Daniel, or Dave.

I have had several chain e-mails, sometimes up to 20 times, and I have several contacts in my address book, who forward anything and everything, hence why I end up with so much forwarded e-mail.

If we can all agree a final copy which will be suitable to start as a chain e-mail, then hopefully it will start to spread around the UK, and people will take notice!!

This viral email looks like its shaping up nicely - I'm impressed  and hope it can inform many others of this consumer rip-off.  

I agree its impossible to get every point across in a single email which I believe shouldn't be longer than ONE screen so to avoid people switching off.  (The link back to the SayNoTo0870 site could provide a link giving all the relevant history and background anyway.)

However I would like to suggest a couple of inclusions which I feel might help get the point across more strongly...

Regarding the issue of companies making money, could something be added along these lines ....
"and we're talking more that just pennies here, companies make £Ms (or whatever figure is accurate ) out of us through this rip-off"

And regarding those of us who have already paid for free local/national calls, could we include something like...
"Having already paid a monthly fee to your telephone company, you still have to pay for 0845/0870 etc calls - so you're effectivley paying TWICE to make these calls"

Finally, could the link to complain to Oftel be as straight forward as possible, so that the user just simply provides their name, address and email address before clicking a send button to send their complaint.

Anyway, hope these suggestions are helpful and look forward to reading the finalised version.

Cheers
Garry

Garry,

I don't think a finalised version will be achievable.  I think that people should pick and choose from what we've already got on this forum and get on with sending them out.  I just don't think it will be possible for everyone to agree on a single version; everyone knows the bits that matter to them.  

Has anybody sent anything out yet?

Regards

What about a mention of mobile inclusive minutes.  You pay a monthly fee, for loads of mobile minutes, which can be used for calling landlines, and mobiles on the same network, and in many cases other mobile networks.  Sometimes off peak only, sometimes, anytime of the day.

However if you want to call 0870 numbers, then instead of using up your free allowance, you could pay up to 50p minute to make these calls, so mobile phone users are stung even more.

The only exception to this is O2, who still allow inclusive minutes on 0870, and 0845 numbers

wrote on Jun 30^th, 2005 at 7:13pm:

What about a mention of mobile inclusive minutes.  You pay a monthly fee, for loads of mobile minutes, which can be used for calling landlines, and mobiles on the same network, and in many cases other mobile networks. ...

I think we should leave calls from mobiles out of it. Ofcom 'NTS Options for the Future' document even suggested that calls to NTS from mobiles was insignificant. They estimated that 5% of calls to NTS were from mobiles.

At the end of the day, companies say, "It's upto the phone provider what they charge." It's upto us to show that this is not the case.

The prices some mobile tariffs charge are clearly way in excess of what it costs them to terminate the calls. The price from landlines cannot fall due to the termination charges, and that is the key point, as far as pricing goes.

Let's just get on with sending out mails!  If we send a variety there is a better chance of one of them catching on.

I don't think it's a good idea to quote the cost comparisons in pence per minute, for two reasons:

1. Some people will see it penny-pinching. They will view it as a trivial issue about "a difference of only 4½ pence", rather than the huge amounts being creamed off by the call recipients.

2. A lot of people over-estimate the true cost of phone calls. When they see a price of 7.51p/min, some people will think that's quite cheap. These kinds of people typically make heavy use of PAYG mobiles etc, and are used to paying much more for their phone calls. They'll think it's a big fuss about nothing.

I think it's much better to say something like "Calls to 0870 numbers are surcharged by at least 150% on top of normal national call rates and the organisation you're calling receives most of that hefty surcharge". Talk in percentage terms, not in pence. The impact is much greater. As soon as you start quoting pence per minute, it will trivialise the issue for many people.

I have a paragraph about the scam on my web site at http://www.nicholashodder.com/scams.htm#0870 . Please feel free to copy any part of it for a viral e-mail.