Hi

Pardon me if I have overlooked anything contained within these forums, but I cannot find expression of any opinion, either by Administrators/Moderators, or by registered contributors, regarding the use of the 0870 number to generate donations to registered charities using such numbers?

I would genuinely appreciate an idea of the stances being held on this subject by any of the above.

Thanks

Lee Johnson
webmaster
Westie ReHoming
Charity Registered Number 1108659
Telephone 0870 609 2825

Typically, I have since found the thread relating to charities http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1117110971, and find the comments made to be of immense interest.

I am about to contact our Committee to recommend that we fully advertise the cost of our telephone line via our web site at http://www.westierehoming.me.uk/index.htm, and the fact that it generates much-needed income for our dogs.

I would still appreciate any thoughts anyone has.

Best wishes

Lee Johnson

There are far more transparent methods of raising funds for your charity than through exploitation of the poorly-regulated telephone numbering system. It is also likely that your charity is itself being fleeced by the 0870 provider who, almost certainly, will be taking a much larger cut of the revenue than what your charity receives.

Personally, I would not do business with any charitable organization that uses rip-off numbers. As soon as I see 0870, I think "extortion", and go elsewhere. I can't even call 0870 numbers from where I live.

I suggest your charity rethinks the use of scamming numbers such as 08X. What do you gain? A few measly pence per call during the day whilst turning off people who may want to contribute in a substantial way but see 0870 as a scam.

Hi

Thanks for your views.

Whilst it may appear to be 'measly pence' to you, it is potentially life-blood to our deserving cases.  A little more tolerance might be the order of the day.

If you refer to the other thread posted on this subject, you will discover that your stance is somewhat at odds with the majority of contributors to that thread.

We have put our heads above the parapet on this forum not to have it shot off, but to try to convince contributors that there are indeed valid uses outside of sheer profiteering for the 0870 number in particular.

Our experience of other NGN numbers is such that we cannot comment.

With our intention to fully inform the caller through notices posted on our web site, I think all callers will be left in no doubt as to the ramifications of using the number.  If they then decide not to ring us, on our own heads be it.

Lee.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:03pm:

Hi Thanks for your views. Whilst it may appear to be 'measly pence' to you, it is potentially life-blood to our deserving cases.  A little more tolerance might be the order of the day.

As I stated, there are methods of raising funds that do not rely on exploitation. 0870 relies on deceit of the ill-informed public. Tolerance is not an issue. 0870 is a rip-off. Period. Irrespective of use, it is always a rip-off.


wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:03pm:

If you refer to the other thread posted on this subject, you will discover that your stance is somewhat at odds with the majority of contributors to that thread.

That really isn't my problem. Others are entitled to their views, I'm entitled to mine, and you are entitled to your opinions.


wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:03pm:

We have put our heads above the parapet on this forum not to have it shot off, but to try to convince contributors that there are indeed valid uses outside of sheer profiteering for the 0870 number in particular.

I can't think of any valid use of 0870. If you want to generate revenue from the pathetic numbering system that prevails in the UK, use a 09 number. Here there are no hidden charges - the costs are generally known, not hidden, and in the most part, the charges are regulated.



wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:03pm:

Our experience of other NGN numbers is such that we cannot comment. With our intention to fully inform the caller through notices posted on our web site, I think all callers will be left in no doubt as to the ramifications of using the number.  If they then decide not to ring us, on our own heads be it.

Just bear in mind that not everyone is able to call 0870 numbers, and not just those that live outside the UK.

As I said, it's your choice as to whether your charity uses 0870. My view is that all 0870 numbers are a rip-off and I will not call them unless there is absolutely no alternative. Even then, I have to route my calls through a voip system as I can't call them from my location -this is the problem with doing business with a "third-world" country wrt telecomms. I wish you luck with your charitable venture, but the use of 0870 numbers is telling me something about what your organization thinks of me as a potential contributor, and it is not positive. As I suggested earlier, consider how much the supplier is making from calls to your charity. Is it prepared to hand this money over? Of course not. Why has it given/sold you these numbers in the first place? I suspect philanthropy was not its first priority.

Luckily, we cancelled our subscription to blatant cynicism long ago.

I'm happy for you to have almost the last word on this, as I suspected you would.  I further suspect, however, that you will not be ringing us to discuss the matter further!

Your comment regarding your opinion of our organisation is duly noted and also disappointing - therefore consider my head shot off (as I was expecting)!

I will now withdraw from the parapet.  Good luck to all those who are fighting, and those who join the fight against, genuine profiteering through use of these numbers.

Best wishes

Lee.

Can you actually reveal how much (in pence) you actually receive for each minute that we call you?  Compare this with the cost involved from our point of view (8ppm daytime - even more from other providers and upto 35ppm from a mobile).

For example, assuming we don't have to call you from a mobile and call you from a BT line (can be rare these days as most people use other providers because they're cheaper on geographical calls) and pay 8ppm.  From this 8ppm, you receive 1.5ppm that means that tel company operating the NGN can get anywhere upto 6.5ppm.

Having done a check on your 0870 number it reveals that the number was originally allocated to BT.

Upon checking BT's business website, it reveals that there is a charge of £10 per month line rental (this would be in addition to the line rental charged for your geographical).

Surely, taking into consideration you receive a maximum of 1.5ppm (according to BT's website) and the monthly line rental of £10, are you actually gaining anything from the use of the 0870 number?

An alternative you could consider is advertising your geographical and pointing out that "other" charities may make a profit from you calling them but we don't.  Calls to us can cost upto 3ppm daytime from a BT landline or even as cheap as 2p per call from other providers like Call18866/Call1899.

I'm sure people would appreciate you more because you're not trying to secretely rip us off.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:51pm:

Luckily, we cancelled our subscription to blatant cynicism long ago. I'm happy for you to have almost the last word on this, as I suspected you would.  I further suspect, however, that you will not be ringing us to discuss the matter further! Your comment regarding your opinion of our organisation is duly noted and also disappointing - therefore consider my head shot off (as I was expecting)! I will now withdraw from the parapet.  Good luck to all those who are fighting, and those who join the fight against, genuine profiteering through use of these numbers. Best wishes Lee.

As already intimated by BBB, and relating to what I said earlier, your 0870 supplier is ripping *you* off. This indirectly fleeces the end user - YOUR CUSTOMERS and YOUR POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS. It is not that difficult to understand this.

How much do you receive, per minute during the daytime, from your 0870 number? How much do you think your supplier is receiving? It's not difficult to work out.

Just who is the charity here?

Your ogranization is being ripped off. Switch to geographic and you won't be reliant upon a telco supplier using clandestine methods to deceive the public (national rate garbage).

Your use of 0870 DOES say a lot about your organization, just as Sky, DVLA, A+L and the thousands of other organizations that do not give a toss about the end user. Your charity is a small user of such numbers, and it could be argued that it really doesn't matter, however these numbers are so pervasive that the sellers of such numbers have even invaded respectable charities, for example RSPCA.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:51pm:

[...] I'm happy for you to have almost the last word on this, as I suspected you would.  I further suspect, however, that you will not be ringing us to discuss the matter further![...]

And that is an important point - even if I wanted to ring you to discuss further, I could not do so. I CANNOT CALL 0870 numbers. My provider does not route calls to such numbers. This is why I percieve those that use such numbers, or at least their orgz, to be either clueless or money-grabbing.

Hi to bbb, and thanks for your refreshingly-balanced, non-strident views.

We do indeed receive 1.5 ppm, and do indeed pay £10 pm rental.  However, you would not believe how busy we are, even if I quoted figures to you (which I will not).  Therefore, the £10 line rental can be absorbed easily.  Suffice it to say that we do not only get people ringing us to offer donations (I wish there were more!).

The main bulk of our telephone traffic is from those who wish to take a Westie off our hands.  While this is laudible, we find that an ever-increasing number of people are, unfortunately, hoping to use our service to obtain a pedigree Terrier 'on-the-cheap'.  These people are likely to apply for a dog to satisfy their needs only, and not the dog's needs, which is paramount for us.  I do not subscribe to cynicism when I say this - it's a fact of our lives in this field.

So there is a certain element of 'off-putting' involved, if you can believe that.  We only rehome dogs to fully-checked and approved locations and individuals - we do not 'move dogs on' willy-nilly.  It may sound strange to you, but after all no-one likes time-wasters.

The other main callers are those wishing to volunteer, and they are given the geographical number as soon as they are accepted into our fold.

Those genuinely wishing to donate money to our cause, we offer to ring straight back at our cost.

Your idea about advertising our geographical number is a non-starter - one of the main reasons we went non-geographical in the first place was to ensure the security of the dogs held at our geographical location.

In conclusion, I must say that, whilst views are held that the companies are looking to rip you off, we certainly are not!

I am afraid that I cannot further reply to this forum at the moment, as our Charity needs my input more than you do, but thank you for your valuable feedback.

Lee.

Sadly you've been taken in by the 0870 scammers. They have sold you something that benefits THEM and not you. Charities are being exploited by 0870 providers. Very sad, but wholly expected. It won't be long before every UK business, agency and non-profit will have these numbers. However you describe it, your charity *is* ripping off the end user. It may not be deliberate, but that is what it is in simple terms. The worst aspect is that your charity is feeding the scammers.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 1:29pm:

We do indeed receive 1.5 ppm, and do indeed pay £10 pm rental.

I think you are still missing the point about what happens to the money callers pay to contact you.

If you only getting 1.5p per minute and have to pay £10 per month - that's a very bad deal by the way, most are free - what is happening to the rest (a minimum of 6.01p per minute?

[glb]Those genuinely wishing to donate money to our cause, we offer to ring straight back at our cost.[/glb]

Very commendable, but if idb was interested in donating to your charity, then he would not be able to call from abroad in the first place, to enable you to call him straight back.

[glb]So there is a certain element of 'off-putting' involved, if you can believe that.  We only rehome dogs to fully-checked and approved locations and individuals - we do not 'move dogs on' willy-nilly.  It may sound strange to you, but after all no-one likes time-wasters.[/glb]

How about offering 2 different additional numbers, 1 freephone, 1 geographic, for DONATIONS ONLY, or for VOLUNTEERS ONLY.  Beside this, state "The freephone number is provided to allow you to call us free of charge.  If you telecom provider allows free calls to geographic numbers, or you wish to use your mobile inclusive minutes please call 01....., or 02.......   We have to pay a per minute charge for freephone numbers, and calling a geographic number will mean more of your donation will help us"

Keep the 0870, for people who as you mention are timewasters, and being able to be open and honest about the cost of the call, is certainly a step in the right direction.

On your website it might also be an idea to accept donations online.  This would mean getting the payments would be all automated, and free up your telephone lines.

Also, perhaps you can accept enquiries online.  If people want to volunteer, then you can call them back.  If people want to become timewasters etc, then if they state the nature of their enquiry online, then you can reply saying "Thankyou for this enquiry, we can/cannot help you at this stage", or "Thankyou for this enquiry, to discuss the matter further, call 0870...."

If all of this were put in place, then if idb wanted to contribute, he would, either online, or you give him a callback abroad!!  And most importantly, people who want to give you their money won't have to pay an extra charge via their phone company and be more likely to get on the "DOG AND BONE!!!"  (Sorry I had to make this deliberate pun!!)

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 3:48pm:

Very commendable, but if idb was interested in donating to your charity, then he would not be able to call from abroad in the first place, to enable you to call him straight back.

Good point, but the scam goes deeper than this. Westier seems to imply that I don't give a stuff about his charity. Wrong. Exactly because I DO care about these matters is why I have tried to point out that his charity is being taken for a ride.

My wife is involved with animal rescue, although not with Westies or other dogs, however for illustrative purposes, let us assume she is president of the Miami Westie Rescue Center. Now let us assume that she wishes to contact Mr Johnson and his organization that she has seen through a trade magazine or whatever, and the number she sees is 0870 blah blah. Now, my wife is an American citizen. She has no idea about the bizarre implementation of numbering systems in the United Kingdom. She neither knows, nor cares, about termination payments, originating operators, terminating operators, uplifts, routing, BT mechanisms for calculating payments, Ofcom, ICSTIS and the myriad of problems related to non-geographic numbers, nor should she need to know about this garbage.

So, she has a business proposition, or some other idea she needs to run by westirehoming which, let's say, could give the charity's income a boost. She picks up her calling card, and being familiar with dialling the UK, calls 011 44 870 609 2825 and gets either a NU tone, or some other message saying that the call cannot be completed as dialled -please check the number and dial again. She has no idea that 011 44 870 is some form of pseudo-premium rate number that some operators do not connect, therefore she gives up.

This is a hypothetical example, however it could happen, much like someone who is ill, and tries to call his/her surgery from say Bolivia and finds that the Bolivian telephone company hasn't got a clue about 0844 numbers so loved by NEG and similar scammers.

As I have said before, the UK is entering the dark ages for telephony and Ofcom is mainly to blame.

Even more worrying is that Mr Johnson is *PAYING* for his 0870 number, and most of the revenue is going to the provider and not his charity. He fails to understand this point, therefore there is little point in expecting change.

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 4:16pm:

. . . She picks up her calling card, and being familiar with dialling the UK, calls 011 44 870 609 2825 and gets either a NU tone, or some other message saying that the call cannot be completed as dialled -please check the number and dial again. She has no idea that 011 44 870 is some form of pseudo-premium rate number that some operators do not connect, therefore she gives up.

Are you sure about that number, or does that include the Calling card prefix ?? (normally UK=0044)

. . and does this problem also occur with other NGN's also from USA ??   :-/

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 4:57pm:

Are you sure about that number, or does that include the Calling card prefix ?? (normally UK=0044) . . and does this problem also occur with other NGN's also from USA ??   :-/

Yes, the standard international access code *from* the United States is 011. We typically dial a toll-free number (1-800, 1-888, 1-877 or 1-866), or even a local number (in many places, local calls are free) to benefit from lower rates, to access the low cost provider. We would then dial 011 44 1XX.... or 011 44 2XX... to access geographic numbers. Some providers *will* route to 011 44 870 and 011 44 845, however these are charged at a large premium, and given the long queues, I'm not prepared to pay ~40c/minute where I usually pay 2c/minute to a geo number. Some providers simply do not route calls to anything other than +44 1, +44 2 or +44 7. +44 800, where available is usually charged the same as +44 870 which is why 0800 calls are of little use to people overseas. It is possible that our telephone provider, Bell South, will charge exactly the same for +44 8 as it does for +44 1, however I haven't tried it as international rates are high in the first place. Trying to find out in advance is impossible, so it would rely on examining the bill afterwards

I would like to re-iterate what I posted on the other thread on charities.

Using 0870 is a very 'inefficient' way to pay. A daytime call to 0870 costs 7.51p/min on BT. A daytime local call is between 3p and 0p/min, so the service provider is therfore charging a premium of between 4.51p/min and 7.51p/min. This is in return for what rate? 2p or 3p/min maybe. So where's the rest going? Simple, to the telco providing the 0870!

This, in a nutshell, is why I think (charities especially) should steer clear of these numbers.

If you consider the extra revenue from 0870 important then why not drop the 0870 and let people donate more money to your charity?

Of course, if it is really 'extra' revenue, then how is it obtained? Are people aware of the cost to them and the revenue paid to the charity?

The description is as follows:

Quote:

All calls to this number are charged to you at a National Call Rate, depending on who your Telephone Calls Provider is.  By agreement with our Service Provider, between 8am and 6pm, Westie ReHoming receives a small proportion of the Charges, which it donates fully to the dogs it is committed to helping - 100% goes towards their care, 0% to administration costs, which are funded separately.

The national rate thing is completely misleading, and specific pricing information should be given instead. "By agreement with our Service Provider" makes it sound as though your SP is being charitable!

Whilst I agree with idb that 0870 is bad, it is mainly the fact that it covert. I therefore suggest you give your callers an idea of how much it costs them and how much of that goes to the charity.

Dave,

That info about national rate, etc that is on their site is new.  It wasn't there when I looked at it this afternoon.

He appears to be yet another person that is under the impression that 0870 is national rate though I'd do appreciate he has tried a little anyhow - at least they admit they get revenue from the calls unlike other charities, companies and our own government.

idb wrote on Jun 7^th, 2005 at 1:12pm:

And that is an important point - even if I wanted to ring you to discuss further, I could not do so. I CANNOT CALL 0870 numbers. My provider does not route calls to such numbers. This is why I percieve those that use such numbers, or at least their orgz, to be either clueless or money-grabbing.

AN UPDATE:

With respect to those outside the UK, our service is specifically designed for, and targeted at, those residing in the UK - we do not rehome dogs outside this country.  Therefore, the ability of callers from outside Britain to reach our number is not a priority for us - I cannot see why a non-UK caller would ever want to telephone us, apart from lamenting to us directly the existence of the 0870 number.  However, many of you having decided that there is no 'plus side' to the premium rate system whatsoever (even for charities), I don't expect this viewpoint to be accepted even now.

This then is my final word on the subject, apart from saying that our dogs still (eight months later) benefit comfortably from the proceeds of the 0870 phone calls, thank you very much.  And we have recorded no complaints about the charges at all by callers at the time of them contacting us.

Best wishes

Lee.

Your views are much welcome here, and I can see your point of view, and thanks for bringing up this old thread again.

You say you recorded no complaints about your number.  If you were to tell customers that you your 0870 number is revenue share, I'm sure they might view it differently.  It because very few people complain that big companies are able to get away with it.  Perhaps another viewpoint is because potential callers have been put off by your 0870 number and not bothered getting in touch, or perhaps most people accept 0870 is a con, but everyone uses it, and doesn't make a fuss (when they should)

And I take it, when you go home, and someone crashes into the back of your car, and to make things worse you get home and find that your washing machine breaks down, your satellite TV has a fault, you find the customer services numbers for all these situations, and find you have to spend 2 hours calling 0870 numbers to sort it out.  Now I take it you have absolutely no objections, in calling these numbers, because the cost of the call helps pay the wages for the customer service people who you would rather not phone, and prefer to be in a situation where you don't want their help, and in the case of the washing machine or sky not working, it's their fault in the first place!!

Oh, and these 3 companies on a geographical number on 1899 would cost 9p.  Calling them on BT option 3 (or equivilent on other providers) FREE.

Calling 0870 for 120 minutes at 8p per minute = £9.60!!!

Can you explain the advantages and benefits of paying a premium of ONE HUNDRED TIMES the cost you should be paying, cos sticking to your own principles and beliefs, you'd rather stick your hand in your own pocket and pay £9.60 for something that should only cost 9p!!

You also say that people calling your 0870 number has helped your charity and has helped rehouse your dogs.  Are you saying that you cannot survive without the 0870 number.  Would using a geographical number put your charity in serious financial threat?

If your business needs revenue from telephone calls to operate, then I suggest you use an 090 number.  As you clearly state, there's been no complaints about the cost, and people are happy to call you despite the additional cost, and you don't need to be contacted from overseas, so whats stopping you using an 090 number?

Excellent Shiggaddi. Of course one no-no is the fact that people are, as you say, aware of 09X costs. And then the correct title is "Revenue Share", with perhaps half of that 25p, 50p or whatever going to the operator.... Yup, some to the charity, but I prefer to contribute directly, the easier now that we have Gift Aid.
But then I am not trying to inveigle money out of people without their realising it and explaining it away that no-one has complained about a few pence. Yuck.

While I can see that a small charity might think it beneficial to get some revenue from revenue-sharing numbers - altho' I remain to be convinced  :-/ - I cannot see the benefit for a large national charity (especially when they admit that the revenue share is not important to them).

However, when I put it to one such large national charity that 0870 numbers were costing their members money, which was going to their telco and hence was not available for giving to the charity, they chose to ignore the point completely.  :'(

I will be following it up when I have time and have collected the info I need.  >:(

trevord wrote on Feb 13^th, 2006 at 12:23am:

I cannot see the benefit for a large national charity (especially when they admit that the revenue share is not important to them). However, when I put it to one such large national charity that 0870 numbers were costing their members money, which was going to their telco and hence was not available for giving to the charity, they chose to ignore the point completely.  :'(

I think its more a case that these charities pretend that the revenue is not important to them.

I totally understand your wish to retain some secrecy to protect the dogs, although most rehoming shelters are in the phone book etc so it seems a little unusual...  However, it is a bit of a lame argument because if someone wanted to deliberately harm or steal a Westie (in particular!) they would simply tell you a story in order to find out where you are, so it wouldn't really work!

I must say that, until I read more detail about the finance involved in 0870 numbers from other posters on this thread I was inclined to feel more charitable (pardon my pun too!) towards charities using these nos to gain a little more revenue, but I'm afraid they have rather opened my eyes further.

I have to say that when I see an 0870 or 0845 no belonging to a business I immediately feel mistrustful as if (as the initiator of this thread indicated) they wish to hide their whereabouts.  Why would any business or organisation WANT to do this?!?!  (a rhetorical question, I fear; their motives can only be questionable...) :-/

I was thinking about another issue as I sat for ages, again, this morning on an 0844 number to follow up a long delayed mail order from Cancer Research UK, and I won't bore anyone with that problem. However I realised, as I was doing a bit of surfing for an alterantive number, that a lot of Charities (including Alzheimer's Society | Blue Cross | British Heart Foundation | Cancer Research UK | Children With Leukaemia | Diabetes UK | MENCAP | Multiple Sclerosis Society | NSPCC | The National Trust | Parkinsons | PDSA | RSPCA | Save The Children) use Webb Ivory (Burton) Ltd as an outsourcing mail order company.  I know that Webb Ivory's number is in the data base on this site, but what is probably less well known is all these charities use WI(B), and they all have an 0844 557 number as a contact number.  I have spent a good 45 minutes over the last week on the CR UK 'customer services' line, and then decided to shortcut it all by ringing the Managing Director of Webb Ivory via its switchboard 01283 566 311 although on the web the number is given as 0845 218 4530.  I don't begrudge charities earning something from this system (do they?), but what I do resent is being held for ages on the line listening to piped music, and paying for it. I'm new to saynoto 0870, and wondered if this issue had come up anywhere else. :-/

Mike_Campbell wrote on Dec 4^th, 2007 at 5:42pm:

...I know that Webb Ivory's number is in the data base on this site, but what is probably less well known is all these charities use WI(B), and they all have an 0844 557 number as a contact number...

I don't believe it's a coincidence that they have similar 0844 numbers. It's highly likely that the 0844 number is provided by the outsource company Webb Ivory.

Mike_Campbell wrote on Dec 4^th, 2007 at 5:42pm:

I don't begrudge charities earning something from this system (do they?)

0844 557 is one of the ranges where a revenue share would be paid to the renter of the line.

If this is genuinely used by a charity to offset costs that would otherwise be met out of other donations, then many others (including myself) would share your view, but subject to one vital qualification.

This process must be transparent.

Taking money from telephone calls on which an unadvised premium charge is levied (note my careful wording) is very damaging to the reputation of a charity. If I decide to give £5 and end up paying £5.50, I may feel as though the whole donation has been taken wrongly.


I note that Webb Ivory uses this same group of numbers for similar mail order services provided to purely commercial organisations. It is therefore difficult to see how these charities do actually earn from the excess paid by callers. The way in which its costs and revenues affect the fees levied by Webb Ivory is commercially confidential and cannot be discussed in public.

Webb Ivory is failing to deal fairly with all of its customers by not advising the likely high cost of calling its order lines (up to 40p per minute from a mobile). Charities which promote its numbers without appropriate advice are complicit in this. They should accept their responsibility to their donors and take action to avoid the damage to their reputation which should be inflicted by publicity of this matter.

(Someone with the time and resources to do so may wish to contact these charities to confirm their position, before exposing this scam through the media.)

The full list of charities which Webb Ivory provides mail order services for is available at: http://www.charitygifts.com/