It seems that everytime I phone a company, doctor, council, government service, travel agent, electricity supplier, etc. I find that I am increasingly having to dial an 0870 , 0845 or more recently 0844 number. Even small suppliers with less than 5 employees are on the take with 0870 and 0871 numbers.

The only normal numbers I dial now are with friends and family and of course mobiles.

My phone bill is getting bigger even with the use of 18866. In these days of technology the price of phone calls should be going DOWN not UP.

Are people stupid, don't they realise what is going on here?

There is a major conspiracy happening.

Even great consumer champions like Watchdog and Which are on the bandwagon.

This site is great but things just get worse all the time. It's cheaper for me to dial the USA, Canada or Taiwan than call my doctor who is 100 yards away.

Wake up England.

You should do as I do and dial the equivalent office in USA!  If I find a company which doesn't reveal the alternative geo number, I simply call the USA office and simply explain that it is cheaper to call them than to call the office in my own country and after they stop laughing they are usually happy to help.  

Companies are doing this because they can and OfCOM are doing nothing to stop them because if they did then most government departments would lose their revenue.

I find this amusing from OfCOM website:-


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Ofcom's Statutory Duties Under the Communications Act 2003: 3(1) It shall be the principal duty of Ofcom, in carrying out their functions; (a) to further the interests of citizens in relation to communications matters; and (b) to further the interests of consumers in relevant markets, where appropriate by promoting competition

Now reading the above, in just what way is OfCOM helping us in allowing the increasing use of these numbers?

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It seems that everytime I phone a company, doctor, council, government service, travel agent, electricity supplier, etc. I find that I am increasingly having to dial an 0870 , 0845 or more recently 0844 number. Even small suppliers with less than 5 employees are on the take with 0870 and 0871 numbers.

I have also made this point before. Although I live in the US, I get sufficient information from the UK to see that virtually every UK organisation now uses one of these scam numbers. Surely, it must be obvious to even the most disinterested consumer that you are being increasingly ripped off. As Gazzer says in his post (above) surely Brits must realise that their phone bills are getting more and more expensive? Or are they all so immune to the prolific rip-offs that increasingly seem to occur throughout British society that resistance is now seen as pointless?

I have also asked the question "just how many business lines now terminate on a NGN as a proportion of total business lines?" but Ofcom are either unable - or more likely refuse - to give the statistics. They are probably too scary to admit (and, as has been said before, most Ofcom employees are probably on the take from the scam as ex-BT employees). If the sheer extent of the scam were quantified, it might well make people sit up and take notice.......

As my friends here constantly tell me, there would be blood on the streets if American businesses tried this sort of trick!   >:(

wrote on Jun 19^th, 2005 at 4:43am:

.....it must be obvious to even the most disinterested consumer that you are being increasingly ripped off.....

You would be surprised at just how many people still believe that 0845/0870 are local or national rate.  It took OfCOM nearly a year for them to admit that these descriptions are misleading.  I believe (but not sure) that their consultation finished in January where they admitted the descriptions were misleading.  Yet we are in June now and they still haven't done nothing.  I'm sure I read that it will be August before they force companies, etc to publish the actual cost of these calls.  That's a whopping 8 months after their consultation ended.  Just what they are upto is beyond me!?

One of the great problems in addressing this matter is UK Joe Publics APATHY .Its become the norm in rip off Britain so the majority sit there and accept it.

wrote on Jun 19^th, 2005 at 8:53am:

One of the great problems in addressing this matter is UK Joe Publics APATHY .Its become the norm in rip off Britain so the majority sit there and accept it.

You hit the nail on the head there.

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Having been following and entering this site discussions over a lengthy period, I must admit to becoming completely disillusioned.  We have members who are valiantly trying to do things to overcome this scam - but we seem to be getting nowhere! The scam is escalating all the time, and as we have no chance of any 'publicity' which would swing the 'masses' into action (because all the organs of publicity are involved, already), then it is obvious the present tactics of a few regular contributors complaining will not get anywhere.
As Ofcom said, there were very few complaints to their 'consultation'.
A new strategy must be developed - but I am at a loss as to what it could be, and freely admit it.  But with over 3 thousand registered users there has to be something different we could try.

wrote on Jun 19^th, 2005 at 9:25am:

.... As Ofcom said, there were very few complaints to their 'consultation'....

I, like so many others, were not aware of their consultation.  I was only aware of it after reading this site but at that time it was too late.

If OfCOM don't make it public that they are doing a consultation (except for on their website which isn't the most looked at site and not to even mention it isn't really user friendly), then how can people write and complain, etc?  I would have been one of those that put in a complaint to them had I had known of their consultation.

I believe OfCOM are just as guilty (if not more) than the ever increasing number of companies using these numbers.

Totally agree, but the question has to be "What CAN we do about it?"
Personally, I have sent consultation letters to Ofcom, written to my own MP, my MSP, my MEP - and all it does is cost me more time as there is nothing any of them will do - even the political parties use NGN's!!
The 'powers that be' have built themselves a foolproof method for ripping us off - it just proves the old adage "You CAN fool all of the people all of the time".
Perhaps we really DO deserve what is being perpetrated against us.
Can anyone 'think outside the box' on this issue and get a different approach, as we are getting nowhere.

Oftel before them and Ofcom subsequently have consistently claimed that they "have had hardly any complaints" about these scams! It is all part of their strategy. The truth is they have been FLOODED out with complaints, both from the public and from MPs etc.

The whole thing is a game which they are playing. They do not intend to do anything objective about these scams, nor have they ever intended so to do. The government does not want the revenue-generating racket with queuing to end, because they are now making vast amounts from it. Also the increasing percentage of NGN calls carried by BT and the increasing revenue generated from this is the very reason that Ofcom corruptly assisted BT and removed the data stating BT's share of this, using what they called "redactions" in the publicly-issued version of their last consultation on these issues.

As I have posted hereon previously, if the trend continues soon almost all of the numbers which UK consumers need to call will be NGNs, and competition will be effectively stiffled back to where things were prior to so-called privatisation. This was BT's original strategy to reclaim their previous monopoly, and with the help of corrupt "regulation" it is working.

wrote on Jun 19^th, 2005 at 10:12pm:

As I have posted hereon previously, if the trend continues soon almost all of the numbers which UK consumers need to call will be NGNs, and competition will be effectively stiffled back to where things were prior to so-called privatisation. This was BT's original strategy to reclaim their previous monopoly, and with the help of corrupt "regulation" it is working.

I agree with all you say dorf, it is what ELSE we might do to wake up the 'sleeping masses' that is exercising my mind though.  The problem is consistently stated, on this site, but we seem no nearer to any resolution (Ofcom will shortly(?) fudge again ,no doubt), and we will still have these scandalous  numbers - depressing.

Firestop, the problem I believe is that now the only assault which could be made against these scams would require vast amounts of money, to firstly publicise the details and raise widespread awareness of the campaign, and secondly to actually take action against the corruption which is at the root of it all in the courts and with the European central court.

You would be fighting an effective syndicate which is now making a vast amount of money every year, and they have a vested interest in the continuation of these abuses. They will fight extremely hard to maintain the status quo and have large sums of money to do so. Then you have the vested interest of the government, who are collecting large amounts of "stealth tax" out of these scams; they control Ofcom.

So you can see that since it is unlikely that it would be possible to raise the sum of money needed to fight these abuses effectively it is very difficult to see any way that can now achieve an end to them. Either you need the large amount of money necessary to expose the scam widely and then fight it in the courts, or you need an end to the corrupt form of government which we now have, which allows and encourages the abuses to proliferate. (People get the governments which they deserve - and vote for!)

I would suggest that we can only continue to do what we are doing but try to do it better. If everyone who wants to fight this added a signature to their e-mail stating the brief details of the abuses (e.g. "0870, 0871, 0845, 0844, 070 and other non-geographic telephone numbers are being used as PREMIUM numbers with queuing, costing you 100s of times what calls should cost. Complain to Ofcom"), that would help to spread the awareness. Then if everyone who wants to fight it put up a site on internet publicising the scams, so that many sites came up on search engiines, that would help. The other key thing is to cease to do any business with companies who abuse NGNs (such as using 0845, 0870 and 0871), and to write to them stating why you are not doing business with them any longer, or at all. Also communicate with any companies you are already locked into a situation with via e-mail or letters only and state why you are doing this.

If everyone who wants to fight this did all of these things it would at least begin to more vigorously address it, and as awareness grew it would have more effect, growing exponentially.

That is all we can do at present I believe. When the proportion of numbers which are NGNs has increased to 90% or so (relative to GNs), which it will, then I believe that will open up new opportunities to contest these abuses on the clear grounds of them having destroyed free and reasonable competition. At that time I believe it will become possible to do something effective. The only question is how VOIP will affect this progression. However the other issue is that more and more of these abused NGNs are being extracted from having a specific associated GN termination which can be used if discovered. This I believe will eventually affect the usefulness of saynoto0870 as a means of circumventing paying the premiums.

Again, dorf, we are in total agreement.
Personally, I regularly complain to companies that have 0870/0845 numbers - the most recent being the HOBS, a protracted email discussion!
I can also say that I have never phoned an 0870 in my life - if there is no alternative they do not hear from me.

I have just had an email from Martin Smith's moneysaver site about signing a petition against finance adverts on kids TV - would this kind of thing be an idea for us here??

Unfortunately this brilliant scam being perpetrated on us is SO clever, in that the actual costs to individuals is relatively small and not paid till much later (when the phone bill arrives). By then it maybe doesn't stand out - you have to give BT credit for their ingenuity!!

MSE Martin did say fairly recently on his site that he was thinking about getting a petition up about 0845/ 0870,and asked for response to his idea.

If that is correct then I suggest seeing if it is still a possibility, with joint efforts from both sites surely an awfully large petition could be got.
I added my name to the current petition about money ads on kids TV, and I think there were over 11,000 signatures almost the same day as it was introduced!
The email I got from MSE asked me to forward to all my email contacts, too.  This could be an excellent way of getting to people - a short description of the problem with 0870 and ask to sign and forward!
Could I suggest Daniel liaise with MSE Martin and see what they can come up with?

wrote on Jun 21^st, 2005 at 11:53am:

...Could I suggest Daniel liaise with MSE Martin and see what they can come up with?

That's not a bad idea at all.  Would it be possible Daniel to just mention it to MSE Martin?

As mentioned by bigjohn, MSE Martin posted this a while back but nothing has happened since.

What about targetting certain users of 0870 with mass emails?  A chain/viral email sent to a number of people asking them to cut and paste a letter of complaint about 0870 into an email and send it to a certain company at a certain time, and then another company the next day and so on.  This would also increase awareness of the scam and provide the potential of brand damage to some these organisations.

This could also be a newsworthy activity.  I am frustrated that my attempts to get this covered in the media have come to nothing because they don't want to upset their advertisers, maybe something like this could tip the balance?

My apologies, I see that there was a suggestion a bit like mine made already, but without emailing the perpetrators. I still think this could be the way forward...

wrote on Jun 19^th, 2005 at 4:43am:

I have also asked the question "just how many business lines now terminate on a NGN as a proportion of total business lines?" but Ofcom are either unable - or more likely refuse - to give the statistics. They are probably too scary to admit (and, as has been said before, most Ofcom employees are probably on the take from the scam as ex-BT employees). If the sheer extent of the scam were quantified, it might well make people sit up and take notice....... >:(

To be honest quotes like this do not help the cause, suggesting that most of the employees of Ofcom are on the take only makes us look like a bunch of extremists. Ofcom has around 800 staff with only around a quarter coming from Oftel. The Radiocommunications Agency make up most of the numbers in Ofcom.  

It's likely that Ofcom doesn't have the information about how many business lines terminate on NGN's. They allocate the numbers in blocks of 10k and don't really care whether they are used for competition lines, business numbers or isp dial up numbers. If you asked how many businesses use geographic numbers its unlikely that Ofcom has that information either.

I honestly belive that comments concerning stealth taxes for the government, public servants on the take and providing false complaint statistics do more harm than good and should be avoided.

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To be honest quotes like this do not help the cause, suggesting that most of the employees of Ofcom are on the take only makes us look like a bunch of extremists. Ofcom has around 800 staff with only around a quarter coming from Oftel. The Radiocommunications Agency make up most of the numbers in Ofcom.

Perhaps I should clarify my thinking here. As has often been said, many of the Ofcom staff are probably ex-BT employees. It is well known (I think?) that BT, in common with many other businesses, is in severe difficulties with its Pension Fund. Now think about it. You are an ex-BT employee with a pension fund that you know is in trouble. You work for a "Regulator" who - nominally - has the power to stop BT earning billions (yes, billions!) of pounds of extra revenue from a very clever 'sleight of hand' and some extremely smart marketing. - plus, of course, a lax regulatory regime. Are you REALLY going to cut off the gravy train - when to do so is likely to have (possibly) severe effects on your retirement package? I think not!! If this is NOT the case, then perhaps the head of Ofcom would like to come out and say so publicly.

BT are maintaining a revenue stream that started when they installed the first STD exchange back in 1957? and timed local calls. They saw a unique opportunity with the introdcution of NGN - and they grabbed it with both hands. In every other country, calls are going down in cost - in most cases, dramatically. In the UK? They just continue to go up. Even VoIP won't change that - just look at the rates on, say, Vonage in the UK - and then compare with Vonage in the USA where ALL calls to anywhere in the US or Canada are inclusive.

Even Skype has a reminder that "Shared cost numbers are Premium numbers in the UK (area codes 0844, 0845, 0870 or 0871) often used by businesses and other institutions. Shared Cost numbers are charged at a higher rate than regular numbers." And why - so BT can maintain it's revenue stream!

Extremist? I think not. Damned annoyed? You betcha!

Absolutely mikeinnc, well put!

Personally, I think the reason the public don't seem to care is because mobile phone termination charges are a bigger issue. Yes, calls to 0870 numbers are a rip-off - but calls to mobile phones are even more of a rip-off.

Of course, it's possible to choose your friends. I figure that a person who doesn't have a fixed line, and who can only be contacted by mobile phone, probably doesn't have a very stable lifestyle, and are therefore likely to be unreliable as friends. I am therefore disinclined to maintain acquaintance with such people.

I appreciate that not everyone thinks the same way as me.

But with 0870 numbers, you don't have that choice. Government departments and utility companies use 0870 numbers. You can't choose not to be friends with them in the same way. Speaking personally - and despite my best efforts, using sources like Say No To 0870 - my spending on calls to NGN's is still significantly higher than my spending on calls to UK mobiles.

But for many people, it will be the other way round. So I suggest we take a two-pronged approach - we campaign against NGN's and high termination charges for mobiles at the same time.

To compare with the USA and Canada, mobile phone users usually have to pay to receive calls, or have incoming calls counted out of their inclusive minutes in the same way as outgoing calls. As a result, calls to mobiles are the same price as calls to fixed line numbers - in fact, mobile phones are issued with local phone numbers, and you can't tell the difference between fixed and mobiles from the number.

As a result, NGN's which cost more than fixed lines but less than mobiles don't exist in the USA and Canada - and companies are therefore unable to get away with using them.

The good news is that calls to mobile phones are on the way down - it's now 4p a minute during the week with Dialwise, and 2p a minute at the weekend with 1899. But they're not yet low enough to make NGN's stand out on the bill of the average medium-to-heavy phone user.

wrote on Jul 7^th, 2005 at 6:49pm:

Personally, I think the reason the public don't seem to care is because mobile phone termination charges are a bigger issue. Yes, calls to 0870 numbers are a rip-off - but calls to mobile phones are even more of a rip-off.

And with the introduction of 05 numbers for VoIP, it begs the question what is the point of competition focusing on the price of geographical calls? We don't like being ripped off with 084/087 number translation services, but it seems that VoIP will have the same problems if Ofcom doesn't get its finger out with regards number pricing in general.


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To compare with the USA and Canada, mobile phone users usually have to pay to receive calls, or have incoming calls counted out of their inclusive minutes in the same way as outgoing calls. As a result, calls to mobiles are the same price as calls to fixed line numbers - in fact, mobile phones are issued with local phone numbers, and you can't tell the difference between fixed and mobiles from the number.

At present, the mobile networks provide packages which charge 'line rental'. This is a misuse of the term as it is simply a payment for the inclusive minutes and a handset. If one doesn't want a handset every year (or 18 months), then it's a complete waste of money going on a contract. Not only that, but outside inclusive minutes, calls aren't that much different to pay as you go.

I do not see why we cannot pay a fixed amount per month, as is the case for a landline. This would allow the mobile networks to reduce their termination charges and reduce the rates they charge for calls originating from mobiles.

Instead, we have to pay them per minute at extortionate rates. That is, the same pence per minute if we make/receive one 1 minute call every month compared to hours and hours of calls per month.