This FOI response was verging on the side of rudeness and arrogance. The Typos are mine, typing this at speed.


Yes we use 0870.

why do you use 0870..
Our decision to remove all regional numbers was taken for a number of reasons. The RPC reconised that passengers often found it diffcult to contact us, as our regional offices did not have the capacity to handle large call volumes.  Passengers also indicated that they often found themselves contacting a cmmte office that was not geographically best placed to assist them. We therfore took the decision to centralise our complaint handling operation and offer a single point of contact for the org. We specifically removed all geo numbers and set up 0870 numbers for our regional offices to encourage all public contact to be made via our centralised office - contactable on 08453 022 022. The premise was that if a call was for a regional office we could transfer the called from our local rate number and we would bear the additional cost with the member of the public only ever having to pay for a local rate call.

What are the eqiv geo numbers.   There are no eqiv geo numbers. All previous lines have been switched off.

Revenue
We are on Business starter and recive 1.5p/min for daytime. Evening and weekends 0.24p
Since we moved to this new system we have made approx £800 in revenue.

Aware of rev collected by provider: NO

Considered COI guidelines:
What Conclusions:
I do not understand the question, I suggest you clarify your point, the COI guidlines are 127 pages long and contains guidence on many issues

Do you reliase that all calls (national/local 01/02) cost the same:
NO - all calls do not cost the same.

Are you aware how much callers pay: I suggest you check the BT price list on their website for more details.
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Why use 0845: We use one 0845 number. A key objective for the org is to raise its profile with the traveling public. The use of one national number is part of our strategy to deliver on this objective

What equiv geo numbers: there are none

what revenue from use of 0845: none

aware of revenue to telco op: no

Do you reliase that all calls (national/local 01/02) cost the same regardless if calling from London or Glasgow:  Yes

DO you realise that 0845 numbers now offer no cost advantage to callers, irrespective of their locations, only disadvantages?  This is a matter of opinion and I am not required to debate the subject with you.


Jon Carter
Business Manager, Transiton and Sponsorship
Direct Dial: 0870 336 6042

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Thats it for the questions he actually answered, nice to see he changed his tune from saying that 01/02 calls do cost different amounts in the begining to saying they cost the same.

Any advice on how to proceed as I do belive that he has failed to answer the questions.

No, it wasn't 'verging on the side of rudeness and arrogance' - it was both.

In fact (the forum software won't allow me to type this fully so fill in the gaps yourself), the whole response boils down to, "*&%^$@ off you cretin."

So any advice?

My god, what an arrogant wee scab!

Contradictory and changing his mind, obviously not really interested in giving you the information you requersted and would rather have you shut up..

keep at it, FOI him for his boss`s contact details ;) coz with a reply like that, Id actually get petty damn angry,.

hi had the response, I will post the full letter up tonight when ive got more time.

basicly the geo number is 020 7713 2700 (0870 336 6000)

My own reply from the RPC:

<<
Thank you for your request under the Freedom of Information Act on 19 July which, as per your request, has been passed to me to investigate. I apologise for the fact that I have not responded to you within the statutory period of 20 working days. This has simply been a matter of time pressure. You are however entitled to complain about this 3 day delay to the Information Commissioner. Their website address is www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk

I provide answers to your questions as follows:

1/5.
As all the regional offices have now closed, there is nobody in any of these locations to receive telephone calls so I cannot see the need to release numbers that a) do not go anywhere and b) are in the process of being released back to the original provider. I am however happy to provide an alternative number which is one that we have made available to those wishing to call from overseas. This is +44 20 7713 2700. However, this number is only manned during usual working hours (9am-5pm Monday to Friday) unlike our 0845 number which is available 8am-8pm Monday to Friday and 8am-4pm at weekends and bank holidays.

2/6.
We took the decision to introduce 0870 numbers so that we were able to develop an internal telephone network for what was then a network of nine offices based around Great Britain. With offices based in Glasgow, Cardiff and around the English regions, we did not want to have these numbers using the 020 7 London prefix and opted for the geographically neutral 0870 numbers instead. As you point out in your email, the Central Office of Information (COI) has published guidelines on use of 0870 numbers and in procuring our system, we took advice from both OfCOM and the COI, who advised us that as long as there was a local rate alternative number publicly advertised as well as alternative methods of contact, such as email/web, then they were satisfied that our use of 0870 numbers complied with their guidance. In fact, the COI assisted us with the procurement of our telephone system.

Since the telephone system was procured in 2004, the RPC has been subject to some significant changes as a result of the Railways Act 2005, with the result that all of our regional offices have now closed. We now have two offices, in London and Manchester, and retain the use of our outsourced contact centre in Warrington, which is where the 0845 calls are handled. However, to avoid additional costs being incurred in dismantling and recreating a telephone network for the new Rail Passengers Council, we have maintained the old network just for the two offices in Manchester and London.

continued...

...

3.
The revenue that the RPC has received to date from 0870 calls is approximately £800 but would reiterate the point that the 0870 numbers are primarily intended for calls from businesses and other stakeholders whereas the publicly advertised number for calls from members of the public is a local-rate 0845 number from which we make no revenue.

4.
BT

In terms of further information that you ask for, it is dificult to know what to provide - as I have outlined above, we sought and obtained guidance from both the COI and OfCOM in relation to the use of 0870 numbers and having reviewed our invitation to tender and the subsequent submissions from the companies that tendered to provide our telephone services, the COI was of the view that the service being provided by BT did not contradict its guidelines as we have various alternative methods of contact available, including a local-rate number, web and email channels. Clearly the content of the submissions from the companies who responded to our invitation to tender is commercially confidential but I have included below an extract from the RPC’s own working group (which had a COI representative on it) minutes where the decision to go with 0870 numbers was debated:

The group discussed the implication of all staff having 0870 numbers as direct dials, which is required because of the way the new internal network is structured with the ‘hub’ as the London office and agreed that this was preferable to staff in offices in Scotland, Wales or the English regions having 020 London prefix numbers. Chair of the working group, Tim Nicholson, said that he didn’t think this was a problem and would in fact make the numbers more portable in the event of office moves or future changes. The group discussed the issues surrounding choosing 0870 (e.g. national rate) numbers and it was agreed that, while the passenger contact centre needed to have an 0845 number to enable members of the public to ring in at local rate charges, it was appropriate for the offices to have national rate 0870 numbers as these would primarily be used to channel calls from businesses and stakeholders, not members of the public.

Passenger Voices steering group minutes, 5 August 2004

I trust that my responses to your points clarifies the RPC’s position on the use of 0870 / 0845 numbers, but if you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.
>>

Some of these excuses for using scam numbers are just so lame. It really is laughable how those responsible attempt to justify the use of premium numbers for essential services.

Who responded to your FOI request? And was that the first response or a follow-up response?

It looks rather like Jon Carters been banned from responding to FOI requests.

wrote on Aug 19^th, 2005 at 12:11am:

Who responded to your FOI request? And was that the first response or a follow-up response? It looks rather like Jon Carters been banned from responding to FOI requests.

The response was from Jon Carter and was a reply to a first request. I see no reason for an appeal in this instance, nor will I take any action for the three-day delay!

What really made me smile is that Mr Carter, who knows I live overseas, supplied a 0870 direct contact number.

hmm a lot better then my first response from him.

My Response (4 pages, FULL of text) was from Caroline Jones the Communications Director, oh and she put a 0870 at the bottom of the letter as well.
---
Most of the response was virtually word for word with yours, other slight things were different, maybe beacuse of the snotty letter I sent back in response to Mr Carters "This is a matter of opinion and I am not required to debate the subject with you.".

Some of the stuff below has been slightly cut down so isnt word for word except in response to questions. Typos and grammer is my fault. Typing this at 01:45!!!!
9 AUG 2005

Thank you for your follow-up request under the FOI  on 14th July which as per your request, has been passed to me to investigate as a matter of best practice. I have reviewed your original correspondance and satisfied that Mr Carter responded to as many of your questions as he was able to.

cont..

As Mr Carter has explained, we took the decision to introduce 0870 numbers so that we were able to devlope an internal telephone network for what was then a network of nine offices around GB. With Offices based in Glasgow, Cardiff and around the English Regions, we did not want to have these numbers using the 020 7 prefix and opted for the geographically neutral 0870 numbers instead. As you point out in your original letter, the COI has published guidelines on the use of 0870 numbers and in procuring our system, we took advice from both OfCOM and the COI, who advised us that as long as there was a local rate alternative number publicly advertised as well as alternative methods of contact, such as email/web, then they were satisfied that our use of 0870 numbers complied with their guideance. In fact the COI assisted us with the procurement of our telephone system.

Since the telpehone system was procured in 2004, the RPC has been subject to some significant changes as a result of the Railways Act 2005, with the result that all of our regional offices have been closed. We now have two offices, in London and Manchester, and retain the use of our outsourced contact centre in Warrington, which is where the advertised 0845 calls are handled. However, to aviod additional costs being incurred in dismantling and recreating a telephone network for the new RPC, we have maintained..

cont.. Pg2

Pg 2...

the old network just for the two offices in Manchester and London. With this information in mind, I will respond to your follow-up questions or comments in turn.

1.1- we did not advertise the old regional telephone numbers alongside the 0845 number as one of the benefits of introducing our new telephone system was the ability to accurately monitor call volumes to the RPC. This enabled us to better ensure that the range of advice and services we provide were adequately tailored to consumers needs and also so that we could ensure sufficient resourcing to deal with incoming telepjone contacts and other correspondence. For this reason, when the 0845 system was set up, we arranged with BT an automatic redirect from all the previous regional numbers to the 0845 number so that we could ensure we were capturing all contacts. This redirect was set up for a period of six months (sept 04-March 05), after which callers using hte old numbers recived a message redirecting them to the 0845 number, which I belive is common practice when changing telephone numbers. Therefore there was no point in publishing the old numbers as people would only recive a redirect message and this would undermine our ability to properly monitor call volumes by bypassing this system.

1.2 - as all the regional offices have now closed, there is nobody in any of these locations to recive telephone calls so I cannot see the need to release numbers that a)do not go anywhere and b) are in the process of being released back ot the original provider. I am however happy to provide an alternative number which is one that we have made available to those wishing to call from overseas. This is 020 7713 2700. However, this number is only manned dureing usual working hours (9am-5pm Mon to Fri) unlike our 0845 number which is available 8am-8pm Mon to Fri and 8am-4pm at weekends and bank holidays.

1.4 and 2.3 I note that Mr Carter has provided you with a breakdown of the revenue that the RPC receives from 0870 calls and would reiterate again the point that the 0870 numbers are primarily intended for calls from Businesses and other stakeholders wheras the publicly advertised number for calls from members of the public is a local-rate 0845 number from which we make no revenue. However, I do not belive that there is any need for the RPC to contact BT to enquire as to the revenue it may collect from callers for providing us with this system. This is a matter for BT and a seperate FOI request to them directly if you wish to pursue it further.

1.5, 2.4 and 2.4.1 - As I have outlined above we sought and obtained guidance from both the COI and OfCOM in relation to the use of 0870 numbers and having reviewed our invitation to tender and the subsequent submissions from the companies that tendered to provide our telephone services, the COI was of the view that the service being provided by BT did not contradict its guidelines as we have various alternative nethods of contact available, including a local-rate number, web and email chanels. Clearly the content of the submission from the companies who responded to our invitation to tender is commercially confidential but I have included below an extract from the RPC's own working group (which has a COI rep on it) minutes where the decision to go with 0870 numbers was debated.

...

[thank god im nearly done, this RSI is annoying me]

pg 3..

The group discussed the implication of all staff having 0870 numbers as direct dials, which is required because of the way the new internal network is structured with the 'hub' as the London office and agreed that this was preferable to staff in offices in Scotland Wales or the English regions having 020 London prefix numbers. Chair of the working group, Tim Nicholson, said that he didnt think this was a problem and would in fact make the numbers more portable in the event of office moves or future changes. The group discussed the issues surrounding choosing 0870 (e.g. National Rate) numbers and it was agreed that, while the passenger contact centre needed to have an 0845 to enable members if the public to ring in at local rate charges, it was appropriate for the offices to have national rate 0870 numbers as these would primarily be used to channel calls from businesses and stakeholders not members of the public



1.8 - The charges for calling an 0870 number per min based on a basic BT tarrif i.e. one with no built in discounts, is as follows:
daytime 6.73 ppm
evenings and night time 3.36 ppm
weekends 1.27 ppm

A mimum call charge of 4.2pence applies to each call.

2.1 The Geographic number is 020 7713 2700 but as I have outlined under 1.2 above, this service is only available during normal working hours, monday to friday 8am to 5pm. This is the number that anyone calling from overseas can call. in addition to contacting us via email or the web, both of which routes are monitored for the same hours as our 085 number. However we are witholding the underlying GN for the 0845 number under section 43(2) of the FOI act for the following reasons.
[   FOI 2000 S43  (2) Information is exempt information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of any person (including the public authority holding it).   ]

• Our 0845 number is a managed system integrated with our call centre operation run by CPM in Warrington, in conjunction with our telecoms provider, BT. This has a number of in-built mechanisms to enable the RPC and CPM to effectively deal with varying call volumes and to balance call volumes recived across the switch system depending on  forecast or actual call volumes, which in turn ensures that the maximum number of callers can get through to a 'real' person as quickly as possible. If callers used a GN, CPM and BT could not report accurately on call volumes,no reliable statisics would be available and thus managing our  call profile from rail passengers would be more difficult.
  
• The CPM system includes network Interactive Voice Responses which allows them to deal with unforeseen surges of telephone calls by using pre-recorded messages at busy times, for example in the event of a major rail incident. This service would not be able to function for calls delivered directly to GN and therfore anyone calling the Geo Eqiv to the 0845 number at a busy time would not get the level of service or information required.
  

For these reasons, we belive that releasing the GN for the 0845 number would put the RPC and CPM at risk of commerical harm, undermine the quality of the service that we are currently able to offer and potentially present callers to the GN's..

cont..

pg 4 of 4...

with a longer waiting time, and therfore higher call cost, then if we manage the system properly through the 0845 route.

2.6 - I am not sure if you are referring to 0845 or 0870 numbers in this point. If it is 0845, then we belieeve that the use of 0845 numbers does offer benefit to the majority of callers as it is a local rate service rather then the national rate service which would apply for people calling from most locations in Great Britain and the comparative call rates for daytime calls (when we experience the majority of calls) is 3.36 pence per minute rather then 6.73pence. However, we are aware of the potential disadvantages experenced by those who are on non-BT tariffs or who have packages with 'free minutes' or special deals and we will keep this matter under review.

I trust that my responses to your points clarifies the RPC's postion on the use of 0870 numbers.

Yours .....blah blah
Caroline Jones
Communications Director
0870 336 6020 [what a surprise]
caroline.jones@railpassengers.org.uk

ye gods all this rubbish is SO annoying. Why not use the 055 coporate numbers if they want something geographically neutral that can (must, come on OFCOM) be charged at proper 01/02 and bundled rates.
Why do they not employ competent telecoms people?
Silly me, they want the money like the greedy members of the NTS group.
If I set up such ill-designed networks for my clients I would not have them as clients for very long. And we are paying for all this. I must try an international collect call next week...