My interpretation - Bruce may know the outcome, or at least part of it, of the Ofcom review. Any thoughts?

<<

Questions for Oral or Written Answer
beginning on Thursday 21 July 2005
(the 'Questions Book')

Part 1: Written Questions for Answer on
Thursday 21 July 2005


779
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon):To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, what assessment has been made of the likely impact Ofcom's proposed changes to (a) the 0870 number range and (b) 0845 numbers could have on those industries which rely on these number ranges to fund or subsidise the cost of providing other services to consumers.
(15007)  
780
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon):To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, what assessment has been made of the likely impact Ofcom's proposal to remove revenue sharing of the 0870 number range will have on the Number Translation Service industry.
(15008)  
781
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon):To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, what assessment has been made of the likely impact Ofcom's proposal to maintain the current price per minute rates for 0845 numbers for a two year period will have on internet service providers' ability to take advantage of British Telecom's next generation network roll-out.
(15009)  
782
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon):To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, if he will bring forward measures (a) to help consumers understand the pricing of calls to Number Translation Services and (b) to ensure providers who charge more than the standard fixed line rate make a pre-announcement to consumers using their services.

>>

Also:

QUESTIONS FOR WRITTEN ANSWER AWAITING ANSWER
21st JULY 2005


(13th July)

The Lord Tyler—To ask Her Majesty's Government why the recommendations of the Central Office of Information on the need to avoid using 0870 and other premium charge telephone numbers for the public to obtain official information have not been followed in the case of the number given to those seeking information about victims of the London bombing incidents. [HO] (HL1240)

It looks to me like Malcolm Bruce MP has had a tipoff from someone in the telcos attending all those cosy NTS Focus Group sessions? ;) I do hope that Mr Bruce is not a shareholder in one of those NTS number selling operations?  Or perhaps he is a director of one of the main call centre receiving scam merchants. ::)

Do I detect that Ofcom is now going to try and bury a set of highly consumer unfriendly proposals for reforming NTS in the middle of August when there won't be enough people around to shoot them down over it? :o

Who me cynical! ;D

wrote on Jul 29^th, 2005 at 8:43pm:

It looks to me like Malcolm Bruce MP has had a tipoff from someone in the telcos attending all those cosy NTS Focus Group sessions? ;) I do hope that Mr Bruce is not a shareholder in one of those NTS number selling operations?  Or perhaps he is a director of one of the main call centre receiving scam merchants. ::)

Just what I thought. Interestingly, the NTS focus group minutes (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/groups/nts_focus/notes/?a=87101) of the meetings of May 19 and June 30 have not yet been posted. I wrote to Ofcom yesterday asking why these are not available but no response to date. If nothing turns up on Monday, I'll be submitting yet another FOIA request.

Quote:

Malcolm Bruce (Gordon):To ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, what assessment has been made of the likely impact Ofcom's proposal to remove revenue sharing of the 0870 number range will have on the Number Translation Service industry.

No prizes for answering that one - they'll all change to the (more expensive) 0871 number range.

Also, at least one MP seems to have read some of the FOIA responses:

http://www.tom-watson.co.uk/archives/2005/07/index.html

Regular readers might know that I have been impressed with a site called money saving expert. Martin Lewis, who runs it, has created a community of consumers who challenge big corporates into offering better value to you and me. Did you know for example that all those 0870 numbers we have to call only to be left on hold for ages, generate a fortune for the companies that provide them? Anyway, there's a web site dedicated to consumers who say enough is enough - say no to 0870. It provides alternative numbers and ways to get around paying the inflated prices these companies charge. Ironically, the site it partly funded by Google adwords that you guessed it, throw up a rather large number of ads for companies with 0870 numbers! Have a look at how site users are using the Freedom of Information Act to make their point.

wrote on Jul 29^th, 2005 at 8:51pm:

No prizes for answering that one - they'll all change to the (more expensive) 0871 number range.

Many call centres will change to 0871 but not all.  Quite a few companies running 0870s were scammed into taking the numbers and if 0870 becomes ordinary national rate with no revenue share they won't actually move to 0871.

0871 is not quite the evil varmit it is painted to be since its lowest call rate is actually 6p per minute and 10p per minute is merely the highest rate allowed.  But how are people supposed to cope with the same dialling code having different hidden call prices unless there are clear price announcements.  Ofcom tell us that more disclosure is the answer and yet a major city regulator like the FSA still still tells us on their website that 0845 is "local call rate".

It will be little short of an outrage if the revenue share needs of a few withering dialup 0845 ISPs let revenue share remain for all other 0845 voice based numbers.  What happens then?  Do all ethical 0845 voice numbers have to move to 0870?

Can one assume that most revenue sharing call centres will be the last businesses in the UK to permit IP based phone access and that they will carry on using POTS numbering until it is abolished in about 2015?  Also presumably Ofcom will no doubt permit charging for computer to computer voip call centre access>

wrote on Jul 29^th, 2005 at 9:03pm:

Also presumably Ofcom will no doubt permit charging for computer to computer voip call centre access>

Of course they will!

Don't worry folks - VoIP is just like email and will be the death of all this POTS/0870 nonsense.

It'll take a couple of years - but it will come ;D

wrote on Jul 29^th, 2005 at 10:56pm:

Don't worry folks - VoIP is just like email and will be the death of all this POTS/0870 nonsense. It'll take a couple of years - but it will come ;D

I think you must have a reassuringly naive view of the world PeDaSp.

The customer abusing companies out there like Easyjet have a different method of cost efficiently dealing with email correspondence that they don't wish to deal with.  That method is to simply say on their website that they do not guarantee it will be responded to and to then plough it all down a large electronic blackhole.  Easyjet even send out their marketing emails with the reply address of blackhole@easyjet.com.

Since employing staff in call centres involves bodies and time there is no way that people like Easyjet and RyanAir are going to go on taking voice calls unless Ofcom allows them to impose a 50p per minute credit card charge on voip.  Ditto for live sex chat lines and premium legal advice lines.  People aren't just going to now run these for free just because the delivery method is now voip.  Unless of course we had a regulator who said that they weren't allowed to do this. ::)

So you are wrong, wrong, wrong PeDaSp.  Requiring Voip support will be chargeable with many companies in the future in precisely the same way as 084x/087x/070x and 090x are currently used. >:(

wrote on Jul 29^th, 2005 at 9:03pm:

But how are people supposed to cope with the same dialling code having different hidden call prices unless there are clear price announcements.

Free front-end announcements would be the answer, but Ofcom might be concerned that they are too expensive to provide (so just how do 18866 and 1899 manage?) and not always technically possible.
But really the 08 scams must stop and we must have proper announcements on 09X.

wrote on Jul 30^th, 2005 at 9:45am:

But really the 08 scams must stop and we must have proper announcements on 09X.

And we must have proper announcements on all the 07 and 08 scams too please.

50p per minute for 0800 on a mobile phone or for an 07 number that costs 50p at all times on a landline is surely also likely to not be the level of charging that the customer was actually expecting?

The fact that call18866 can do this for 2p per call surely says these announcements are not expensive.  It is just that Ofcom and their cosy little industry chums at the NTS Focus Groups meetings seem to think it might be damaging for the bloated profitability of the uk telcos.

You make some good points NGM - and it will be interesting to see what happens.

My point is that VoIP is like email in that it is totally FREE (apart from the internet connection). Even when you call a normally POTS number via VoIP it can be free.

1. VoIP to VoIP calls are free. And as peering arrangements between providers, and the ability to dial URL VoIP address on more sophisticated and dedicated VoIP IP hardware and software phones becomes more prevalent, then a worldwide VoIP network will develop. (Most likely based on SIP - folks like Skype will either die out or move to SIP).

2. A number of worldwide "lookup" databases to link POTS numbers to their associated VoIP address are now coming online. Some such as enum work at the teleco level (allowing providers to charge for a call that is free to them); but others will work at the user level. These databases (effectively DNS lookup for VoIP), mean that if I dial a POTS number a search will be made for an associated VoIP address - and that will be used to place a free call - if such an address exists.

3. The cost of VoIP calls that breakout into the POTS work are already coming down. Providers such as Broadvoice.com charge just $20 for unlimited calls to over 24 countries. And some providers such as voipbuster.com give free POTS calls to a range of countries (but how long this will last for remains to be seen). Of course just like email you can have multiple VoIP accounts and just select the best one for your current call.

4. There will be an explosion of VoIP use as combined WiFi VoIP/Mobile phones and pure WiFi VoIP (VoWLAN) phones come online. This is all linked to the broadband/WiFi/WiMAX rollout.

5. VoIP is going to be totally integrated into web browsers and applications. This is already happening. VoIP softphones will be built into browsers and/or the URL of VoIP hardphones will be linked to active URL VoIP address on webpages - just like your email program is linked to email URLs. So just as now you click on an email link and your email program opens with the destination email address opens; so you will click on a VoIP URL and your soft/hard phone will dial the VoIP number.

6. VoIP providers are getting more and more wary about allowing access to any premium rate or NGN POTS numbers worldwide. This is because they are falling prey to scammers who use abritage to make millions. (Even normal POTS telcos fall prey to this). They are also limiting access as they cannot keep track of all the differing charges worldwide. Or they are massively marking-up such calls.

My Broadvoice account allowed unlimited calls to 0870 and 0845 for 5 months until they got the bill from Global Crossing!!!! So as folks move over to pure VoIP their access to NGN numbers will decrease.

7. It's possible that specialist VoIP providers will develop giving access to premium rate and NGN numbers - but they charge an excess. Plus you will be fully aware that you are making a chargeable call.

8. Most call centres; large corps and gov departments already have pure VoIP internal networks. So it will be technically possible for them to switch to VoIP for incoming calls. You can buy VoIP servers that can handle thousands of VoIP calls for a couple of thousand dollars ("Asterisk" VoIP sw is free). And bandwith cost is coming down.


Now at present users are fooled into calling 0870 number etc... as the believe they are just paying a "normal" phone call rate.

BUT with the expansion of VoIP, users will start to expect that they should pay NOTHING for ANY phone call to ANYWHERE. And as VoIP becomes easier and more ubiquitous SOME companies will start to give out VoIP numbers and VoIP URL addresses.

Slowly but surely the wheels of free market capitalism will grind and companies will use VoIP to differentiate themselves and grab consumers who are VoIP aware. How will companies NOT be able to have a VoIP URL that the consumer will be able to click on and instantly connect to a call centre?

This is not "we'll call you back" buttons where you enter your telephone number. This is instant connection. I have already trialed such a system on one of my own companies webpage. Customers clicked on a button and then heard me talking to them via their computer's speakers and microphone. THEY ARE GOBSMACKED! :-)) They don't even need to have a VoIP soft/hardphone or even know what VOIP is.

...

...

My first email account was with Compuserve. I paid per KB and could only email other Compuserve users. Most folks had never head of email; and almost NO companies and government departments had email address. Now look at the world!

Companies will not be able to "charge" for VoIP as this would be an oxymoron. VoIP will equal FREE. Just like email is FREE (compared to a letter). VoIP calls that are chargeable will simply not be seen as VoIP calls at all.

Do you know of ANY company that charges for email enquiries? Yes, they may not reply to email to force you to call the 0870 number; but not answering a VoIP number to force you to PAY to call ANY POTS number - even a geographic landline - would just make consumers call elsewhere.

So at present consumers don't get too miffed at calling 0870/45/71 numbers as they just think these are normal phone costs - or just a bit more.

But when VoIP happens big time they will ask why am I even being required to call an 020 number and pay when it's free to call my granny in Australia with VoIP?

Of course at the end of the day all this makes no difference at all to anything really. The cost of call centers will have to be paid somehow. Either through increased cost of goods and services; increased taxes (for gov depts); or even increased pension costs/lower savings rates, as companies lower their profits (and thus cut dividends to pension investors etc...)

Still it's fun and a good theory - time will tell!

wrote on Jul 30^th, 2005 at 11:13am:

Do you know of ANY company that charges for email enquiries? Yes, they may not reply to email to force you to call the 0870 number; but not answering a VoIP number to force you to PAY to call ANY POTS number - even a geographic landline - would just make consumers call elsewhere. So at present consumers don't get too miffed at calling 0870/45/71 numbers as they just think these are normal phone costs - or just a bit more. But when VoIP happens big time they will ask why am I even being required to call an 020 number and pay when it's free to call my granny in Australia with VoIP?

PeDaSp I note your clearly learned technical expertise on Voip and its future techncial rollout which is clearly greater than mine.

Nonetheless taking your points above I note that Easyjet now charge £1 a minute on an 0906 number for technical advice on how to use their website and 65p per minute for telephone bookings on an 0905 number that costs even more from mobiles and BT payphones.   These numbers do not rely on people wrongly thinking the call cost is only at the BT National Rate.  They rely on them knowing it is going to cost them a lot more.

Their old 0870 customer contact centre number still exists but is now barred if it is called from within the UK even if you withhold your number.  UK customers now have to call a 10p per minute 0871 number which is in practice almost useless as there are endless menus that deliberately try to prevent you from speaking to anyone.  Next month that will be on 0905 too.

Companies like Easyjet seem to be able to get away with selling a bad product aggressively to a dumb public because most of the public only respond to criticism that is printed in the newspapers and mysteriously Easyjet is hardly ever publicly criticised for its many quite deplorable customer services practices.

I see everything moving towards online ordering forms and query screens with large corporates and with the government.  If you want a voice mechanism they are going to charge extra.  You will note that most sex webcams on the internet do seem to manage to find a way to charge for their services online and stuff sold on auctions on ebay is not actually sold for free.

So technically speaking providing free voip calls is no issue but unfortunately these large corporates no longer want to talk to you for free.

wrote on Jul 30^th, 2005 at 10:49am:

And we must have proper announcements on all the 07 and 08 scams too please. 50p per minute for 0800 on a mobile phone or for an 07 number that costs 50p at all times on a landline is surely also likely to not be the level of charging that the customer was actually expecting?

Exactly right. Tks NGM - sorry, Saturday morning and not fully with it  :-[
Perhaps full free front-end announcent on all calls is the answer.

wrote on Jul 30^th, 2005 at 12:43pm:

Exactly right. Tks NGM - sorry, Saturday morning and not fully with it  :-[ Perhaps full free front-end announcent on all calls is the answer.

Or how about a voice announcement on all those calls except those starting 01 or 02 which are the only ones always actually charged at your telcos normal rates for national fixed line calls.

NGM - yep - you're right with corps/gov wanting to move us all over to the web as much as possible. As this can save them SO much money.

Remember - you NEVER talk to a corp or gov for FREE. YOU will be PAYING for it either through increased prices or taxes. Even if you're dialing a 0800 number.

Easyjet are a good example - but I think that their strategy is spot-on. I've been to a couple of talks where Stelios has been very candid about their phone charges:

He said that they charge £1 a min for technical advice on how to use their website as he found that they were effectively running an IT support service!!! Users would ring up with all sorts of problems such as my printer doesn't work and my browser keeps crashing! If folks don't know how to use the Easyjet website then they should be paying Easyjet for IT instruction.

Why should I pay more on my ticket for customers who can't be fagged to learn how to use their computer properly??

He said this was similar to when he started Easycar. They spent all their time washing the cars! He realised that he wasn't in the car rental business - he was in the car washing business! Hence his move to charge if you brought the car back dirty.

Easy Group spend a fortune making their websites easy to use and navigate. This saves them millions in call centre costs and enables them to give flights at the daft prices they do (if you book a good time in advance). They have even automated their check-in desks.

If you don't have access to the web and/or you don't/can't be bothered to read their websites fully or learn how to use them - then why should they not charge you a premium rate for wanting to speak to a human? Even if I do a rough calculation on the back of an envelope I can easily see that when you factor in ALL the costs: rent, rates, lighting, IT, wages, management etc.. for running a call centre that they will still be loosing money when they charge £1 a min.

I know many people who do have web access - but given half a chance they will call an operator; either because they can't be fagged to read the webpage, or because they still think that giving their CC to a website is not as safe as giving it to an Albanian waiter.

Stelios is also quite open about the fact that there will be a small percentage of customers who prefer to pay BA £250 for a flight to Paris rather than £50 to Easyjet because the don't want to use the web or call a premium rate line. But that's his business model - and he makes more than BA!

I'm afraid that I don't agree that Easyjet is selling a "bad" product to a "dumb" public. They have revolutionized the air travel business in Europe and made millions for their shareholders (ie: your pension fund).

Yes - I know of people who have had a bad experience with them - but they still keep flying with them!!! I'll be booking my Jan 06 skiing trip soon - and I'll pay just 29.50 to fly to Geneva inc all taxes etc...!!! And they are very clear about their phone charges.

But I do agree with the thrust of your argument in certain circumstances. Where a product is sold via the web; and where price competition in intense, then I can see premium rate call charging remaining.

What I hate about 0845/70 etc... is that it is underhand and deceitful. Easyjet say: "if you want to call us it will cost you £1 a minute. If you don't like that then piss-off and fly BA at 5 times the cost".

...I don't have a problem with that!

wrote on Jul 30^th, 2005 at 1:04pm:

What I hate about 0845/70 etc... is that it is underhand and deceitful. Easyjet say: "if you want to call us it will cost you £1 a minute. If you don't like that then piss-off and fly BA at 5 times the cost".

If you want to fly from a London Airport to Palma, Mallorca (PMI) for a few days any time in the next 3 weeks or so, as I want to do to spend some time on holiday with my 6 year old nephew and 1 year old niece, you will find that BA is no more expensive and frequently cheaper than Easyjet on most possible date combinations.  The charter airlines are also cheaper than Easyjet.  Also BMI had some fares as low as 20 quid a few months ago, lower than Easyjet

Being asked to pay 350quid for a return to Mallorca with Lousyjet is a total outrage and no it wasn't possible for me to book that fare 6 months ago.  If I want to get in my car to go to Cornwall in 2 hours time it costs exactly the same as if I had decided to go 6 months ago.  That is the pricing system I prefer.

I have taken something like 7 return flights with Easyjet back since 1997 and my experiences of their rude Butlins mentality ground staff and cabin crew have all been so bad that I go out of my way not to fly with them.  I would even rather fly with Swiss Airlines via Geneva or Zurich to Palma than pay more or less the same fare to fly with rude nasty and exclude you from the flight when they can Easyjet.

And god help you if you have a customer service issue to resolve with Lousyjet after you have flown.  Basically there philosophy is that we will ignore your letter.  Action is only taken if you either go to a national consumer affairs program or if you go the lobby of Easyland at Luton Airport on your return home and refuse to budge until they have fielded someone in management to talk to you.

As to all your comments about Stelios the man hasn't been involved in runing the company for well over a couple of years now - he is just a shareholder.  The company is now run by former senior BA staff who have sold their souls to the devil.

Quote:

you will find that BA is no more expensive and frequently cheaper than Easyjet on most possible date combinations.  The charter airlines are also cheaper than Easyjet.  Also BMI had some fares as low as 20 quid a few months ago, lower than Easyjet

Yep - great thing capitalism eh? Remember BA prices BEFORE Easyjet?? They've been forced to compete, and often offer the same/better prices then Easyjet - and even better service.

But do they makes as much money per shareholder pound invested? NOPE. You might fly BA - but you'd be better off investing in Easyjet!


Quote:

I want to get in my car to go to Cornwall in 2 hours time it costs exactly the same as if I had decided to go 6 months ago.  That is the pricing system I prefer.

Easyjet has one of the highest percentage of filled seats in the airline industry as it has "leveraged asset management". If you have time and flexibility you pay less then if you are a business person who wants to book at the last moment. Some people like it - and some don't. But it gives the consumer CHOICE.


Quote:

my experiences of their rude Butlins mentality ground staff and cabin crew have all been so bad that I go out of my way not to fly with them.

Fair enough - but I don't care tupense (or rather I do!!!). I expect my mum, girlfriend and dog to be nice to me. I don't fly to make friends - just to get from A to B. Give me a cheap price any day.

In countless surveys passengers state that they will pay MORE for good service. But in PRACTICE they want the cheapest price 99% of the time.


Quote:

And god help you if you have a customer service issue to resolve with Lousyjet after you have flown.

 

Agree 100%. Ryanair are even worse apparently! Best to vote with your feet like you have done - or just issue a County Count Summons on the web - takes 5 mins. This jumps you right to the top of the queue and starts to cost them serious money - they settle 95% of the time - if you are within your rights and you've read the contract (and it's not deemed unfair).


Quote:

Stelios the man hasn't been involved in runing the company for well over a couple of years now

Yep - but he set it all up; and he still advises them.

Respect to you NGM. You have made a consumer CHOICE and voted with your feet. You are not the only one.

I am an ardent capitalist! I heard the mad head of Ryanair (the folks who charged the guy for a wheelchair :-( ) considered charging people £1 for use of the toilets on Ryanair flights!!! Even Mrs T would be shocked!!!

That really is not the way that these things have happened. The reality at the base of this issue is that previously (perhaps it is so far in the past now that many of those younger never even experienced it during their conscious adult lifetimes, from the comments so far on this thread) British companies used to provide service. They understood and acknowledged that the customer was the source of all their revenue and all their profits, just like the Americans still do!

Then along came increasing intense Socialism. This gradually began to distort real economic and commercial values. Companies which in the past had been successful found that they could no longer honestly compete on a level playing field, because all of their costs (particularly unskilled labour costs, with direct employee-related escalating taxes) increased rapidly out of their control. As globalisation increased they were even more unable to compete with areas in the world having relatively low tax overheads. As a direct result many of the traditional, previously successful, types of commercial activities became completely unprofitable, and many previously successful enterprises went to the wall.

Those still attempting to run or commence new enterprises in the UK realised that the only remaining commercial opportunities here were mostly to attempt to tap relatively dumb people with the redistributed disposable income via retail sectors. (Napoleon is credited with having stated that England was a nation of shopkeepers!) As a result competition in these areas increased savagely. It quickly got to the point where because of the level of intense competition there were too many retail commercial operations attempting to address a fixed retail market with a limited disposable value. New marketing and sales techniques were thus thought up to defeat the intense competition. The key ones were confusion marketing and deceit (scamming).

The dirty commercial tricks of BT offered such companies an ideal opportunity for scamming these dumb consumers, so as to offload many of the overhead costs which had previously been borne by companies in servicing their customers. (For example it had always cost companies money to talk to their customers on the telephone, but particularly when it was to sort out errors which the company had made or failures of the company's products this had been in the past accounted for as an overhead cost and as a cost-centre.)

Harnessing the tricks offered by BT gave unscrupulous companies like Easyjet and Ryanair the opportunity to scam their dumb customers by shifting those costs previously borne as overheads directly to their customers, most of whom initially had no idea of what was going on. This technique of confusion marketing appeared to give those companies an edge, because to dumb consumers who could not work out the algebraic realities they seemed to be "cheaper" than their competitors. In many cases the "HONEST" competitors could not then survive since they lost the business which was gained by the "DISHONEST" companies. So the companies like Easyjet and Ryanair seemed to prosper, offering less and less value whilst their honest competitors failed.

It really is important to understand these economic and business realities, because this is what is at the base of this scam with non-09 NGNs with call queuing, and what has caused it to proliferate.  

I will never fly LyinAir cos of there hidden extra extras and ridculus monkey customer 'service'.
Same with SleazyJet, its a lot easier to get stuff back of them, if you claim thru moneyclaimonline.

I want to go to amsterdam in september, its already cheaper for me to go to an airport miles away from me (including train fare to the miles away airport), and then fly with KLM with an unrestricted ticket, unlimited changes, refunds, etc etc. Sleazyjet starting to charge almost double the price now and are all non refundable.

wrote on Jul 31^st, 2005 at 4:00am:

Sleazyjet starting to charge almost double the price now and are all non refundable.

Of course Lousyjet will say but you can change to another flight sir for only £10 per leg.

But when Lousyjet charge fares of up to £199 single from LGW to PMI or PMI to LGW a couple of weeks before travel and you have to pay the difference to the new higher fare you change to this right to change is non existent.

Lousyjet now have a complete stranglehold over the scheduled LON to PMI route and BMI and BA only have one flight a day each compared to Easyjet's 6 flights a day from the 3 London Airports.

The result is that Lousyjet fares are now sky high at almost any popular period.  On principle I would never pay more than 150GBP including all taxes to take a return flight to PMI with Lousyjet but their return fares are now as high as 400GBP.  This year even the charter airlines are joining the August stitch up from LON to PMI and are trying to charge 250GBP return for a last minute ticket.  They also charge a £20 fuel surcharge when the extra cost of the fuel on this route is undoubtedly no more than £10.

With Lousyjet you scrum for a seat, there is no information if the flight is delayed and the flight is often closed at check in one or two minutes before the official closure time and there is then a blanket refusal to try and get you on it (unlike BA, BMI, Swiss Airlines etc who will always get you on the flight as long as you can get to the gate before the flight departs).  Also the staff at Lousyjet are rude and the sandwiches are always sold out.

But apparently some people wear rose tinted spectacles and travel on an altogether different airline from the one that I always seem to encounter.

Yep I have exactly the same impression NGM.

However, I must admit that I am flying off to Spain with Ryanair this year, purely because I managed to book the flights soon enough to get a return fair of less than £40 per person in August. I have only once flown with them before and I look at the whole process as transport of Livestock. I attempt to have a few drinks before boarding to dull the pain and then cease being human for the duration; once having fought for a seat to sit in I hybernate until landing has been accomplished at the end of the journey. Then upon disembarking I revert to humanity.

It really is not a pleasant experience, but if you do not need to change your flight or query anything (so avoiding paying the premium for telephoning them) and if you can accept being transported as Livestock, if you book early enough it can be relatively cheap as mine is. I am spending what I save on an AI holiday.

The one and only time I ever flew on Easyjet it actually cost me £40 more than the equivalent charter flight but without booked seats and an in-flight meal and free drinks etc. The problem was I had left it too late booking and there was no capacity left on charter flights! That one experience was enough for a lifetime!

wrote on Jul 31^st, 2005 at 5:06pm:

The one and only time I ever flew on Easyjet it actually cost me £40 more than the equivalent charter flight but without booked seats and an in-flight meal and free drinks etc. The problem was I had left it too late booking and there was no capacity left on charter flights! That one experience was enough for a lifetime!

I should have made clear that it is Easyjet that incurs my particular displeasure as their in flight service is as atrocious as Ryanair but unlike Ryanair they don't have any low fares worth talking about.

The Ryanair system is that up to 2 weeks before departure they have cheap flights on any day where the flight is undersold to try and fill it up but at 2 weeks they stick all the remaining tickets up to enormously high level on the basis that they think anyone booking this late must be a businessman.

I travelled Ryanair to Sardinia for 70 quid 3 years ago and was happy with the experience and I nearly travelled with them to Palermo for only 16 quid (including all taxes) and would have been very happy except that I arrived 38.5 minutes before the departure of the flight and was excluded when as far as I knew checkin still closed 30 minutes before the flight (back in June 2003 and no it wasn't on the confirmation email I printed out).  They wanted 40quid extra to go 24 hours later but I was only due to go for 3 days and the ridiculous thing was they could have got me on the flight they wouldn't let me on.  The net result was that I spent an hour arguing with them and did not rebook for the next day.  Result miserable customer who no longer travels with Ryanair.

I arrived at Heathrow for a flight to Geneva a year ago with Swissair only 22 minutes before the flight due to massive hold ups on the tube near Hammersmith.  They gave me a boarding pass but didn't check my bag in and told me to run for it.  I arrived at the gate with my bag 11 minutes before flight time and boarded ahead of a number of other passengers (I admittedly had to employ rather drastic queue jumping tactics at security and passport control).

In view of the abysmal level of service and everything costing extra I avoid both these carriers like the plague wherever possible.  But of the two Ryanair seem more worth bothering with than Lousyjet who do not even have any cheap fares.

I really like these coined names "Lyinair", "Sleasyjet" and "Lousyjet". They really are so appropriate!

wrote on Jul 31^st, 2005 at 8:39pm:

I really like these coined names "Lyinair", "Sleasyjey" and "Lousyjet". They really are so appropriate!

Amazingly no one even seems to have registered www.lousyjet.com or www.lousyjet.co.uk

You would have thought Lousyjet might have done to try and head off the inevitable!

Quote:

That really is not the way that these things have happened. The reality at the base of this issue is that previously (perhaps it is so far in the past now that many of those younger never even experienced it during their conscious adult lifetimes, from the comments so far on this thread) British companies used to provide service. They understood and acknowledged that the customer was the source of all their revenue and all their profits, just like the Americans still do!

...er I'm 45 and I'm old enough to remember all this "service":

The old British Telecom - they were great! 3-6 months to install a phone and £2 (adjusted price to 2005) per min to call the USA.

British Gas - lovely! Round to fix your boiler in less then 2 weeks.

British Leyland cars - never broke down; nearly 100% reliability.

British Coal - wonderful hardworking employees - never went on strike.

British Airways - cheap flights anywhere in the world and wonderful cabin staff.

Plus I remember all the wonderful cappuccinos you could buy in your local coffee shop - all that's gone now with Starbucks.

And who can forget all those fantastic restaurants with their 3 stars and gourmet food.

Ah! Those were the days!!

Is it just me - or has this thread gone so far off the topic that we will need Ryanair to get us back anyway?
The 'topic' is "Hansard - NTS Reviews", I seem to recall, but we have developed into a travelsite forum!!??

ps I used to fly Dakotas - now THOSE were the days!

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 1:47am:

ps I used to fly Dakotas - now THOSE were the days!

what about TWA!!!
or even Laker airlines!

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 1:47am:

Is it just me - or has this thread gone so far off the topic that we will need Ryanair to get us back anyway? The 'topic' is "Hansard - NTS Reviews", I seem to recall, but we have developed into a travelsite forum!!?? ps I used to fly Dakotas - now THOSE were the days!

Dave seems to be on holiday and as the old saying goes "while the cat is away the mice will play".  Personally I don't believe in all this topic fascism stuff.  If you were down at the pub you would be allowed to discuss Hansard one minute and then Ryanair and Easyjet the next.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 4:48am:

what about TWA!!! or even Laker airlines!

And Dan Air - they were the first to use that horrible modern cliché, "Let's not go there."

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 10:02am:

And Dan Air - they were the first to use that horrible modern cliché, "Let's not go there."

Easyjet is the natural spiritual succesor to Dan Air.

Don't you mean Dan Dare?
Where has my childhood gone??
(Note the subtle switch of topic again!)

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 10:37am:

Don't you mean Dan Dare? Where has my childhood gone?? (Note the subtle switch of topic again!)

Topics were made to be broken? ;)

Hi PeDaSp,

Of course I was not suggesting that things were perfect in every way prior to the emergence of the new type of exploiting retail business model. That would of course be impossible with any human beings involved. There have always been failings in our country and in our economy. My post did not claim nor was about "life was much better in those days..."! My point was (trying to stick to some semblance of the topic here) that the resulting intense competition due to concentration on the retail sector and the increasing exclusion of others resulted in an unscrupulous re-orientation of business, including a desire to deceive customers, so as to fool them into believing that a company's price (and implied value) was the best available.

Despite all the failings which as you rightly observe did exist in our country and economy, these in the main were not about deliberate exploitation by attempting to fool customers. They were in the main due to amateur and ineffective management of UK companies, and that does not seem to have improved too much if at all? None of the failings which you list are in the category of deliberately attempting to fool and exploit customers, in my view.

Therefore these scams with non-09 revenue generating NGNs and call queuing are an integral part of these changed moral attitudes of retail business. These companies really do not care what depths they go to to fool and exploit their customers. (The increasing dependence on "small print" is another example.) This is the basis of the 0800 for sales calls, 0870 or 0871 or even 070PNS for "if we have made a mistake", "if our rubbish product has failed", "if the product you paid for has not been delivered or is damaged" or "if there is any other problem" model.  

Taking a Lyinair flight with a fellow passenger Dan (D)Air back to the topic, I believe that due to the proliferation of this scam with NGNs in this way many companies are now so dependent on the revenue from this racket in their exploitive buisiness model that they are fighting extremely hard against any change in the current NTS structure; as is also the government. Ofcom are controlled by the government and whatever appears in Hansard is really going to make little difference to the outcome, which I believe is already set and was even prior to the last "consultation". That will be no effective change in NTS.

[At the risk of drifting from the topic I have realised that I must admit that Lyinair have got one thing right, much as I regret having to say so! Their web site is one of the best operationally that I have ever used, for booking. It works in a stable and consistent manner, without mandating cookies, is compatible with most browsers and never seems to hiccup. Very unusual in my experience and worthy of praise.]

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 11:28am:

[At the risk of drifting from the topic I have realised that I must admit that Lyinair have got one thing right, much as I regret having to say so! Their web site is one of the best operationally that I have ever used, for booking. It works in a stable and consistent manner, without mandating cookies, is compatible with most browsers and never seems to hiccup. Very unusual in my experience and worthy of praise.]

Ditto for bookings on the Easyjet website which, in my opinion and experience, is even more stable and more professional in its presentation than the RyanAir one.

Its a shame though that the same level of resource is not devoted by the company in creating a perfect customer service system.  Its almost as though neither Easyjet or Ryanair ever expect to get any repeat business once a customer has travelled with them.

Surely if they charged £5 to register a complaint but then guaranteed to handle that complaint brilliantly effectively (with the £5 being refunded if they found in the customer's favour) they would discourage pointless and frivolous complaints while still dealing satisfactorily with unhappy customers.

The truth though is that their operational practices (such as randomly refusing to board guide dogs for flights and closing check in desks 2 or 3 minutes before the stated time) are so utterly beastly that they generate a quite abnormal number of customer complaints.

Coming back to topic though no one minds more competition if companies compete directly on call pricing for normal 01 and 02 calls and directly on line rental pricing but what people don't like is competition where customer call centres try to outbid each other for the highest revenue share, whilst the poor old customer has no way at all to find any cheaper prices for these calls.

Also being allowed to sell revenue sharing premium rate numbers as "national rate", in spite of ASA guidance, is nothing but a scam pure and simple.

Hi NGM, but doesn't the Lousyjet site mandate cookies? I don't think you can book on there without them?

I am afraid the mandating of cookies is another hobby horse of mine, so I must not get started or I will definitely go off topic!

To get back on topic I don't think Hansard mandates cookies?

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 11:49am:

Hi NGM, but doesn't the Lousyjet site mandate cookies? I don't think you can book on there without them? I am afraid the mandating of cookies is another hobby horse of mine, so I must not get started or I will definitely go off topic! To get back on topic I don't think Hansard mandates cookies?

I allow all first party cookies unchallenged and block all third party cookies.

This seems to be the best compromise as I find that in the real world one cannot satisfactorily use the web if one disables First Party Cookies.  I periodically also Delete Cookies and also periodically run the free version of Lavasoft's Ad Aware program which gets rid of any nastier stuff that has inhabited the registry.

Also from parliament:

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872&SESSION=875

Early Day Motion

USE OF 0870 TELEPHONE NUMBERS BY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS

19.07.2005

Campbell, Gregory

That this House notes the proliferation of 0870 prefix telephone numbers used by a range of Government Departments for members of the public to get in touch; recognises the fact that they can cost up to two and a half times more than regional numbers, and that in some cases departments make substantial profits from such numbers; further notes that last year the Government's Central Office of Information urged Departments not to use 0870 numbers as the cost could act as a barrier to communicating information that the citizen should have access to as a right; and calls upon the Government to take action to end this indefensible practice.

Campbell, Gregory  
Donaldson, Jeffrey  
Simpson, David  
Robinson, Iris  
Spink, Bob  
Winterton, Nicholas  
Holmes, Paul  
Jones, Lynne  
Lewis, Julian  
Owen, Albert  
Corbyn, Jeremy  
Weir, Mike  
Winterton, Ann  
Randall, John  
Simpson, Alan  
Jenkins, Brian  
Drew, David  
Durkan, Mark  
Gerrard, Neil  
Bottomley, Peter  
Pelling, Andrew  

I will write to my MP, Sir Paul Beresford urging him to sign the motion.  I see that the only other MP who I know on a personal level, John Randall, has already signed the motion.  I'm pleased to see there are plenty of Conservative MPs involved in this one.

Although business makes disgraceful profits from using 0870 numbers true Conservatives should all be opposed to their use because these profits are only being made through the distortion of free markets.  The International call price area shows what the free market can do when it is allowed to operate properly.

I don't know what all this rubbish about regional call rates is though.  BT abolished the Regional call rate about 10 years ago.  Geographic phone numbers (starting 01 or 02) is the term they are looking for here.

Following on the discussion that VoIP will overtake POTS and be Free.

Its highly unlikely that VoIP services will stay free as the the use increases and the application matures. Remember that sending SMS messages via the net were once free promos used by ISP`s and now charged by most.

Its likely that VoIP software packages e.g Skype etc will become paid for, either as an app Like Norton AV with an annual subscription or the ISP will restructure their packages so that including things like VoIP will be on one of the higher scale of charges

What do you think?

CIB:

VoIP will be FREE as it's just like email.

Anybody can set-up an email server on their home computer and give out email services to the world. There is plenty of open-source software with numerous free email server programs.

VoIP is just the same. "Asterisk" is open-source (free) software that can run an entire call centre on VoIP. Indeed some call centres are run on Asterisk! You can even get a version: "Asterisk at Home" that will run on your home computer. Of course you need the bandwidth; but it can set-up peer to peer connections that don't route via your computer.

As time goes on VoIP gets simpler and simpler. Soon WiFi VoIP phones will be everywhere - and WiFi VoIP (VoWLAN) will come with your mobile phone!

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 2:47pm:

Its likely that VoIP software packages e.g Skype etc will become paid for, either as an app Like Norton AV with an annual subscription or the ISP will restructure their packages so that including things like VoIP will be on one of the higher scale of charges What do you think?

I think the key thing to remember is that Voip consumes considerable broadband bandwidth and that nearly all of  the cheaper broadband packages have data capacity caps.  Thus if someone making a lot of phone calls with say 18866 stops making calls that way and starts using voip they are going to have to pay for a more expensive broadband package.

On the wider point logically email should charge 2p a message or whatever and then I wouldn't be inundated with email Spam for Viagra and pirated Microsoft software.  But so far that hasn't happened.  It does seem that the broadband market is very competitive so to get you on board there are always going to be companies who will say get your phone calls for free.

At the moment it seems hard to use Voip as conveniently as a Pots phone call from other extensions in your house when you are not at a computer keyboard etc.  To replace POTS Voip needs to be as convenient as POTS is.

Also as a sideline when will Voip come to mobiles?  Presumably only once 3G and/or 4G handsets are fairly universally in use?

Quote:

I think the key thing to remember is that Voip consumes considerable broadband bandwidth

A good quality VoIP call uses just around 100kbps upstream and downstream. Almost all broadband packages  give you at least 128kbps upstream (with far more downstream) - so no problems!

The amount of bandwidth you use depends on the CODEC the call is using. A CODEC is the way in which the call traffic is reduced/compressed. A low-rate CODEC can use as little as 30kbps - so reasonable quality VoIP calls are possible with dial-up.

You have to be careful that you're not using your web connection for downloading at the same time as a VoIP call as this could cause problems. But many new routers have QoS (Quality of Service) that give priority to VoIP calls over data.


Quote:

nearly all of  the cheaper broadband packages have data capacity caps.

Some - but more and more don't. And if you do the sums you'll see it's very hard to hit a cap with VoIP. You would have to be on the phone an awful lot.


Quote:

At the moment it seems hard to use Voip as conveniently as a Pots phone call from other extensions in your house when you are not at a computer keyboard etc.  To replace POTS Voip needs to be as convenient as POTS is.

There are so many VoIP solutions to this: WiFi VoIP handsets; Multiple DECT handsets that link to your PC via Bluetooth; Multiple VoIP IP hardphones on ethernet/CAT5; multiple POTS phones with ATA adaptors all signed in to the same VoIP account or even POTS phones with ATA with different accounts so you have extension numbers! And of course different accounts for different user (Mom, Dad, Son etc....) so you can limit usage.


Quote:

Also as a sideline when will Voip come to mobiles?  Presumably only once 3G and/or 4G handsets are fairly universally in use?

Motorola already have a VoIP/Mobile handset out. The chipsets are in production an soon the market will be flooded with such mobiles. They don't need 3/4G as the phone is effectively two phones:

The first communicates via GPRS; and the second via WiFi VoIP to a nearby access point. The VoIP is NOT accessed via the phone's web connection.

The trick will be to get the phone to "roam" between WiFi AP's and mobile masts seamlessly. At first the providers (Orange) etc... will try and pump us for dosh by only allowing such phones to sign-up to their own (chargeable) VoIP services. But soon the hackers and good-old competition will kick-in and the VoIP calls will be free via WiFi.

The main issue is that most Broadband WiFi in airports/Starbucks etc... has little upstream capacity and downstream does not give priority to VoIP. Plus if you have 20 WiFi DATA users on a 1Mb connection they will each just experience a slow connection. But 20 VoIP users would experience their calls breaking-up. Plus normal AP's cannot handle VoIP in the same way as Data.

The solution is a new generation of AP's made for VoIP and Data.

Here endeth the lesson.

All the info and more at: www.voip-info.com

The reality though seems to be that to get all my Dect and extension phones supported by Dect is a big hassle and a big cost in investing in new equipment and although voipbuster and voipcheap may temporarily be free to a Pots line that will not be the case for very long.  And although I can buy a bluetooth wireless voip headset at Maplin for 60 quid so far as I can see I have to return to the computer screen each time to dial?  Or did I miss something obvious.

As for wifi being free everywhere away from home this isn't the real world.  Why would anyone give this service to customers for free when they have to invest in transmitter equipment and monthly broadband rental.  All the roaming wifi services are currently extortionately expensive and their transmitte range is exceedingly limited.  Hopefully they may get cheaper gradually but data on GPRS still makes such obscene charges that it prevents the growth of the market.  Vodafone charges for 3g data are also obscene.  Their inclusive 3g data packages are void in Europe and they charge 12 quid a megabyte or something lunatic in another EU member country.  In other words the old roaming ripoff again.

The mobile phone companies have spent billions on their 3g licenses.  They operate in a totally uncompetitive market where uk customers cannot cross roam onto other operators networks.  So you really think Ofcom and the government will make them give all that up overnight and let Vodafone go bankrupt?  Thing again.  The market is so slow to develop that the imbeciles at Three still don't allow proper internet access using their 3g product over 2 years after their network was launched.  They only let people into a useless walled garden of Premier league goals.

If voip is "free" on your mobile eventually it will only be because you are paying a fixed monthly line rental of 50 quid a month.  Outside towns Wifi is a non starter.

Broadband is a brilliant product at the moment for BT because people have to now pay an extortionate BT line rental and then pay again for broadband on top for even more pounds per month.  If the market is to develop it should be possible to use BT's copper loop for broadband but desubscribe from their expensive and archaic POTS service.  But there is no sign of the government or Ofcom is going to require this any time soon.

The pace and manner of development on all this is going to be a lot different from that which you seem to expect.  Out here in the countryside there are no wifi networks anywhere and BT, very belatedly is my only broadband option.

I prefer to live in the real world rather than in the visionary hypothetical world.

What do you want NGM - me to come round and set you up with VoIP ;D

Just take a good look at www.voip-info.org and all well be revealed.


Quote:

The reality though seems to be that to get all my Dect and extension phones supported by Dect is a big hassle and a big cost in investing in new equipment

Nope. You can just buy a cheap ATA adaptor to set between your master DECT cradle and a ethernet socket on your router. This turns your whole DECT system to VoIP. Spend a bit more and a Supura ATA will give you POTS and VoIP on all your DECT phones.


Quote:

and although voipbuster and voipcheap may temporarily be free to a Pots line that will not be the case for very long.

True - but VoIP/VoIP calls are free - and POTS calls via VoIP are often just 1.5ppm or even less. They will get lower and lower. Or you can hook up with www.broadvoice.com and pay $20pm for unlimited calls to 21 countries


Quote:

And although I can buy a bluetooth wireless voip headset at Maplin for 60 quid so far as I can see I have to return to the computer screen each time to dial?  Or did I miss something obvious

For this you need your DECT solution above - or buy a WiFi handset. Soon these will be just £30-40.


Quote:

As for wifi being free everywhere away from home this isn't the real world.  Why would anyone give this service to customers for free when they have to invest in transmitter equipment and monthly broadband rental.

It's happening big time in the USA. Everywhere is starting to offer free WiFi as it pulls folks in: Starbucks; McDonalds; Airports; Petrol Stations; Campuses etc... Folks are starting to expect free WiFi just like they use the loo for free.


Quote:

All the roaming wifi services are currently extortionately expensive and their transmitte range is exceedingly limited.

That will be solved by WiFiMAX which is just around the corner. One transmitter can cover 25 square miles.


Quote:

Hopefully they may get cheaper gradually but data on GPRS still makes such obscene charges that it prevents the growth of the market.  Vodafone charges for 3g data are also obscene.  Their inclusive 3g data packages are void in Europe and they charge 12 quid a megabyte or something lunatic in another EU member country.  In other words the old roaming ripoff again. The mobile phone companies have spent billions on their 3g licenses.  They operate in a totally uncompetitive market where uk customers cannot cross roam onto other operators networks.  So you really think Ofcom and the government will make them give all that up overnight and let Vodafone go bankrupt?  Thing again.  The market is so slow to develop that the imbeciles at Three still don't allow proper internet access using their 3g product over 2 years after their network was launched.  They only let people into a useless walled garden of Premier league goals.

WiFi VoIP has nothing to do with 3G etc... See my earlier post.


Quote:

If voip is "free" on your mobile eventually it will only be because you are paying a fixed monthly line rental of 50 quid a month.

WiFi VoIP is totally a function of the handset. So although Orange may want me to to use THEIR handset where I would be tied to their VoIP service only; I will be able to buy a WiFi VoIP/GSM handset and just stick the SIM card in. Or I will be able to download a hack to unlock the Orange handset (just like I do now). WiFi VoIP chipsets are becoming so cheap that they will be installed in all mobile phones - they are actually combined with the GSM chip.

Remember - WiFi VoIP calls are NOT made via the mobile phone providers network.

At some point one of the major mobile providers will bite the bullet and offer unrestricted WiFi VoIP access as it costs them nothing (it's just a function of the phone like a radio). Then all the others will follow suite. VoIP has lots of other features like presence (see which of your contacts is logged-on); Instant Messaging and Texting. All free, as it's just a few big servers in a room anywhere in the world.


Quote:

Outside towns Wifi is a non starter.

See comments above about WiFiMAX.


Quote:

The pace and manner of development on all this is going to be a lot different from that which you seem to expect.

It's happening so fast you would not believe it! All the manufactures are rushing to produce phones; and WiFiMAX is being trialed in the North of England as we speak. VoIP is exploding. BT have just committed £10 BILLION - yes BILLION pounds to start the first stage of moving their whole network over to IP based telecommunications. This is the largest project of it's kind in the whole world.

I made a VoIP call to by business partner in China and it was the clearest phone call I've EVER made. China's telecoms infrastructure is almost totally IP based as they've built it from the ground up. And there is a massive excess of fibre optic cabling linking the world left over from the mad dotcom boom.

...

...


Quote:

I prefer to live in the real world rather than in the visionary hypothetical world.

I already roam around London with my WiFi VoIP phone and make and receive calls the whole time. Folks in LA call me on my Beverly Hills POTS number and the phone rings in my local coffee shop which has free WiFi!

I'm in the process of setting-up and office for 80 media folk - and the whole thing will be WiFi VoIP and data. Not an ethernet cable in sight. Users can roam around the office - and even out into the street. They can have the same incoming numbers at home - or indeed anywhere in the world they are logged-on. The price? £15K. Cisco quoted my £150K (10 times as much) to stick in an old fashioned phone/data network.

My friend rang me from a Lufthansa flight over the Atlantic on his way to NY. He had paid the $30 to get in-flight WiFi - and then just plugged his headset into his PC and Skyped me! The cabin staff thought he was using a mobile phone and were shocked :-)) He then handed the headset round and passengers starting calling their families.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 6:48pm:

At some point one of the major mobile providers will bite the bullet and offer unrestricted WiFi VoIP access as it costs them nothing (it's just a function of the phone like a radio).

It in fact costs them the lost traffic on their mobile network!!!  You really think people who block free 0800 calls because they fear some customers will use third party call carriers are going to roll over and make it easy for you to route calls off their networks.  Absolutley not.  You can expect them to start locking the Sims down too so they will only work in one of their own phones and that phone will not have any Wifi functionality.  If it does have Wifi it will only connect with a proprietary Orange encoded wireless base station.  The majority of the public are stupid and lazy so they won't find a workaround.  I have a Liechtenstein Riiing SIM here that receives incoming calls free GSM calls anywhere in Europe and can be called for only 4p per minute from the UK.  But how many members of the public have bothered to get one or find out about them.

There has also just been an important uk court case where there was a successful prosecution of someone who logged into a Wifi access point that was not password protected in any way.  But he was seen to be stealing their bandwidth.  Make phone calls all round London over wifi.  Yeah I'm sure you do and keep dropping the call out every 10 seconds or so as you move.

WiMax is an uproven pipe dream at present.  Its great until the air waves are clogged.  My current Netgear DG834g adsl wireless router starts having reception problems when I turn the video sender on my television on.  What happens when there are tens of thousands of people clogging these same bands.  Why are BT spending a fortune on upgrading their fixed line network if WiMax is going to be so excellent and all reaching a solution?

Not everyone lives in Covent Garden.  If WiMax was as great as you maintained the mobile companies wouldn't still be building any new transmitters.  Instead they would all be planning their own funerals.

But have it your own way.  WiMax will of course I'm sure  be the answer to everything even though it hasn't even successfully passed testing yet. ::)

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 8:07pm:

It in fact costs them the lost traffic on their mobile network!!!  You really think people who block free 0800 calls because they fear some customers will use third party call carriers are going to roll over and make it easy for you to route calls off their networks.  Absolutley not.

I have never understood this (apart from the money aspect). I remember when I had a Vodafone contract when I lived in the UK. 0800 calls were chargeable, although they were allocated against inclusive minutes. Not so long ago, Vodafone wrote to me stating that 0800 would no longer be allocated against inclusive minutes, so not only would the calls not be free, but would be outside the bundled call time! Vodafone called this a 'simplification' if I remember correctly. I was able to cancel my contract early, although as it only had a month to go, it was an empty victory really. I remember writing to either Oftel or Ofcom, can't remember which, and, as we find today, it did nothing.

Here in the US, my cellphone provider does not care what I use the minutes for, and that is typical of many 'national' non-roaming plans. If I want to use the minutes to call a 1-800 calling card, it is not a problem. Over in the UK, the calling card companies are always trying to circumvent the numpties at Vodafone etc who block their numbers. I believe Orange is the most persistent! What a joke. Again, this is something that demands intervention from the regulatory authorities. Ofcom - clueless.

Orange are only the most persistent because they are the only company to still allow free of charge (not against allocated minutes) calls to 0800 numbers for contract customers.  They actually deserve credit compared to the other companies who charge 30 to 50p per minute for mobile calls.

The whole uk market is set up for the benefit of the mobile companies and not to ensure the best prices for customers.  How else does one explain 20% of the uk land mass still not having mobile coverage and yet cross network roaming not being allowed to fill the gaps in these areas!

I see Dave hasn't got his knife to this topic yet? Is that because he is too busy so far yet to notice, or does he accept the "minor" drift from topic?

Oh dear NGM! You're starting to remind me of the old days when I ran an IT company and would rave to my SME customers about something called "email" and something call "the internet".

They all just laughed and thought my business card with my "email" and "web" address was cute!

Now I have my VoIP address on my biz card - and folks think that's cute!


Quote:

It in fact costs them the lost traffic on their mobile network!!!  You really think people who block free 0800 calls because they fear some customers will use third party call carriers are going to roll over and make it easy for you to route calls off their networks.  Absolutley not.  You can expect them to start locking the Sims down too so they will only work in one of their own phones and that phone will not have any Wifi functionality.  If it does have Wifi it will only connect with a proprietary Orange encoded wireless base station.

WiFi/WiMAX VoIP are a total sea change. This is not some little adjustment or altercation over 0800 numbers. As you can tell I'm plugged into the telcoms business and know what's happening. WiFi/WiMAX VoIP and VoIP in general is the biggest thing since email/www. Billions are being invested. Huge corporations (starting in Japan and USA) are installing massive WiFi VoIP networks with thousands of AP's.

Yes the mobile cos will be linked-in as the WiMAX stations can sit on their towers without interfering with their GSM. And yes WiMAX is a couple of years away at least. But INTEL are putting the circuitry for WiFi/WiMAX directly into their future generation of chips - so everything will become wired.

The producers of WiFi VoIP phones and WiFi hardware are NOT the mobile companies - so they don't have a monopoly.


Quote:

Make phone calls all round London over wifi.  Yeah I'm sure you do and keep dropping the call out every 10 seconds or so as you move.

True - but a huge percentage of mobile calls are made when stationary at desks; tables; pubs; sport stadia; airports; schools; campuses etc... Your handset can see if your calling party is "on-line" and route the call via VoIP.


Quote:

WiMax is an uproven pipe dream at present.  Its great until the air waves are clogged.  My current Netgear DG834g adsl wireless router starts having reception problems when I turn the video sender on my television on.  What happens when there are tens of thousands of people clogging these same bands.

Billions are being spent to solve these issues. Such problems in the WiFi VoIP area have already been solved by companies such as: www.merunetworks.com


Quote:

Why are BT spending a fortune on upgrading their fixed line network if WiMax is going to be so excellent and all reaching a solution?

Because they know the whole world is going IP for data and voice (and IP TV/Movies!) - and it's so much simpler/efficient. And the backbone will be needed to route all the traffic between the various hubs. I'm not saying the WiMAX will be a total solution; but it's ability to provide data and voice to a wide area is not to be underestimated.


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Not everyone lives in Covent Garden.  If WiMax was as great as you maintained the mobile companies wouldn't still be building any new transmitters.  Instead they would all be planning their own funerals.

Actually they are all shit-scared. I have friends who are telcoms consultants and they say the mobile companies are wetting themselves. They've already taken a huge hit with 3G and they're wondering what's around the corner.

Their hope is that POTS will disappear to replaced by WiFi VoIP and cellular. If they can get folks away from landlines and just have mobile handsets; then mobile calls via cellular might take a huge boost - even with many VoIP calls.

The change is being lead by the big corporates. Meru Networks are installing a huge WiFi/VoIP network for a Japanese gas corp. They'll use a WiFi/Cellular handset so that employees can have just one contact number. They use the WiFi in the corps buildings/network and then move over to Cellular outside. POTS goes down the drain. The mobile phone companies can hardly then demand that they use some sort of propriety WiFi VoIP system.

It's true that most of the public don't have hours spare to find the best deal; but they will snap up new technology pretty quickly these days. Look how quickly we swap out our old mobile phones - every year!


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But have it your own way.  WiMax will of course I'm sure  be the answer to everything even though it hasn't even successfully passed testing yet. ::)

OK - I'm not saying it's the second coming (that's next Wednesday in Regent's park :-) ); but the combination of WiFi/WiMAX/VoIP/Multi Mode Cellular handsets is pretty strong and will create a mini revolution at least.

Huge hurdles had to be overcome to make VoIP practicable over what was a network designed for data packets - but it's now arrived.

Remember: VoIP is just email for voice! Your VoIP address is just a URL like your email address. Indeed with the right set-up your email and VoIP address can be the same.

Email is FREE (once you have the connection).
Ditto VoIP.
Almost EVERYBODY has an email address.
Almost EVERYBODY has a mobile phone - and soon they will ALL have WiFi VoIP wether you want it or not.
The combination of the above will drive the huge proliferation of WiFi/WiMAX /VoIP/Broadband.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 11:26pm:

Actually they are all shit-scared. I have friends who are telcoms consultants and they say the mobile companies are wetting themselves. They've already taken a huge hit with 3G and they're wondering what's around the corner.

Indeed, and here in the US, it is becoming a political issue. Some city governments have started to provide wireless access to large metro areas, however some within congress (Republicans) are not happy about this. I wonder why!

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 10:40pm:

I see Dave hasn't got his knife to this topic yet? Is that because he is too busy so far yet to notice, or does he accept the "minor" drift from topic?

I assume Dave is on holiday Dorf.  I think DaveM has become a bit less active here too after he began to realise that not everyone appreciated his editorial style. ;)

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 11:26pm:

Email is FREE (once you have the connection). Ditto VoIP. Almost EVERYBODY has an email address. Almost EVERYBODY has a mobile phone - and soon they will ALL have WiFi VoIP wether you want it or not. The combination of the above will drive the huge proliferation of WiFi/WiMAX /VoIP/Broadband.

There are a lot of hassles with Spam on email that arise due to the service being completely free.  A charge of 1 cent an email would make the problem go away.  This could be offset by a lower monthly service charge for the broadband connection.

The issues with free voip are going to be even worse.  Just look at what happens already with chargeable uk and international landline calls.  So we need a very small flat charge (i.e. 1 cent) per voip call to make the problem go away.  Or do you have a better solution?

And can you tell me who is going to provide directory enquiries for email and voip once POTS is dead.  That seems to be a hugely necessary service but no one is taking care of it.  But again it can't happen unless a charge for each email and voip message is introduced or we will all be saturated by endless spamming.  So how exactly is that little problem going to be tackled?

I can't see POTS dropping dead unless mobile networks drop mobile (as opposed to Wifi) call charges and rely exclusively on line rental instead.

I just received this article in an on-line magazine VON (Voice on the Net). I thought it was worth sharing, as it seems to confirm many of the issues that have been raised in this thread. Enjoy!

Flat rate VoIP over 3G
25 Jul 05  |  Bob Emmerson, European Editor

The new smartphones have Wi-Fi as well as cellular air interfaces, so VoIP calls can be made from hot spots and networked homes. Mobile operators buy lots of phones from the vendors and this was a development they tried to block. The vendors said the interface was only meant for data — they would say that wouldn't they — but when one manufacturer (Motorola) broke ranks the rest followed.

Solutions that select the optimum interface automatically are being marketed (see “Wireless Going On in Cannes”, June issue) and wireline operators get into the act via Wi-Fi access to the local loop. The wireless guys want you to dump your landline service in some markets, which has already happened in Scandinavia where tariffs are low, so this is another negative development from their blinkered perspective.

3G networks have an IP infrastructure but the air interface for voice traffic is circuit switched, which is ironic but VoIP has a relatively high overhead so yesterday's technology is more efficient. You can do VoIP but, I was told earlier this year, this de facto data communication would be more expensive than a regular cell call. That situation would change if operators offered ‘all the data you can eat' services for say $50 a month. Verizon did and Vodafone are going down that route in Germany, where tariffs are high. Their new offer is 1,000 minutes of local and national calls for Euro 20 ($24) a month.

This is good news for subscribers and you can see it as smart marketing, but what about that high overhead. If it was an issue earlier on why has it gone away? Why wasn't a flat rate service being marketed as part of 3G's belated rollout? That would have been really smart marketing. Why are they doing it now?

Operators, wireline and wireless, are scared. Skype was a gigantic wake-up call. Packetized voice needs four times more bandwidth than circuit-switched cellular so the techies don't like it, but 3G operators have bandwidth coming out of their ears so the marketing types decided to go with the flow. However, 3G allows operators to deliver voice services at around one-third of the 2G cost, so margins are high and they need to be in order to recoup some of the ludicrous, lemming-like ‘investments' made in air licenses. Moreover, while they expected margins to decline over time, they did not think that wireless VoIP would have a significant impact for a few years. Conclusion: maybe you should eat your own lunch before somebody takes it away.

Maybe. Those high margins are needed to support the implementation of IMS services, which are seen as the silver bullet that is going to make 3G profitable. And video is being hyped to the hilt because — surprise, surprise — this service eats bandwidth. Thus, on one hand revenues will decline and on the same hand a chunk of bandwidth is being used inefficiently.  

 
Bob Emmerson, VON European editor, is co-author of the book 21st Century Communications.

Very interesting article.  Thanks for posting it.

Yep - thanks mikeinnc. You learn something new every day!

So 3G can offer VoIP (sort-of) calls via their internet bandwidth connection? Weird eh? Why on earth would Vodaphone offer 1,000 mins local/national for $20pm via VoIP 3G This would just drain calls via regular cellular. Why not just offer the calls via regular cellular?

Even I'm getting confused now... ;D