I have been asked by a journalist for a suggestion as to some of the most abusive large uk call centres at present for them to investigate further.

They have in mind I think in particular:-

a) call centres that virtually always have long call queuing times

b) a call centre that does not have any form of geographical alternative number known to mankind

c) call centre staff that always gets its staff to insist the call is at the BT uk geographic national rate even though the staff may well know perfectly well on a personal basis that this is not true.

d) perhaps a call centre that is outsourced to a third party operator for whom the whole focus is to make exploitative profits from running the call centre rather than to provide an adequate level of service to the company's customers

Does anyone have any suggestions?  So many qualify in different ways.  The BBC is top for lying about call cost but not for call queuing times.  Powergen is top for obscenely long customer queues but is actually on an 0800 number.  Can anyone name a call centre that has hugely long queuing times, has no geographic number, that is outsourced and where staff are forced to lie that calls are BT national rate when they know that they are not.

Your votes for worst 0870 or even 0871 call centre of the year are eagerly anticipated.  0844 and 0845 call centres are excluded from this poll for committing the cardinal sin of not charging their customers enough.

How about Britannia Music Club?  They operate an 0871 number and although I've never rung them since they moved to a NGN number I know that you used to be on hold for absolutely ages when they operated a normal geographical.

Can anyone who is with Britannia Music Club confirm that you still spend ages in queue?

That's one from top of my head that fits your criteria but companies/gov depts that may not match your entire criteria are CPW c/s dept, Passport/DVLA (not sure which one was longest?), and more.

Thanks for Britannia Music Club suggestion although I think ideally they are after a more mainsteam player like AOL, CPW, BAA etc, etc.

Actually a name has just come to mind that may be perfect for what they have in mind, even though the number here is 070 and not 087.   That name is Patientline.  The staff there even maintain that calling from a BT Payphone or a mobile phone won't cost any more than BT's standard ripoff rates.

Any other suggestions gratefully received though.

It might be worth, at the same time, searching for the best.  Is there anyone whose call centre provides such a good service, that you don't mind paying over the odds for it?

wrote on Sep 1^st, 2005 at 7:25pm:

It might be worth, at the same time, searching for the best.  Is there anyone whose call centre provides such a good service, that you don't mind paying over the odds for it?

I have never found a single 084/7 customer service centre that ever justified the use of its premium rate number.

In my experience the very best customer service centres are almost invariably only have a phone number to call them that begins 01 or 02.

Are you sure you aren't perhaps secretly Operations Director in disguise with your comments that the service is so good that customers won't mind paying extra for it.

The NatWest credit card customer services number.

Was left in a queue listening to music for 60 minutes after which I gave up. I actually called the geographic number listed in the database instead of the 0870 number - it did go through to the correct call centre - but it's possible this had something to do with the long waiting time.

I left a report on their web page asking if they would like to call me back but they never did.

Their TV advertising "there has to be another way" is clearly a waste of money if they can't answer calls.

Freddie, there may be something in what you say, of course good service is worth paying for ---  but so many times we are not paying the provider of that service, and that is what this site is all about.

If you find a particarly good provider then please contact that provider and ask them who is creaming off that 3 pence a minute for the 0870 number.

I guarentee that you will be surprised by the answers that you get. - Or not.

juby

wrote on Sep 1^st, 2005 at 8:15pm:

Are you sure you aren't perhaps secretly Operations Director in disguise with your comments that the service is so good that customers won't mind paying extra for it.

Not at all.

It's just that I spent 20 minutes today (on an 0800 number to a call centre that was obviously on the Indian sub continent) getting nowhere because the question I was asking wasn't on the script.

I felt afterwards that perhaps my time and sanity is worth more than the phone bill, and that if I'd rung an 0845 or even an 0870 number, and got a sensible answer quickly then paying might have been worth it.

I do agree with you that  they are all utterly useless (personally speaking) - but hey why not hear of someone who does the job well?

wrote on Sep 1^st, 2005 at 8:17pm:

The NatWest credit card customer services number. Was left in a queue listening to music for 60 minutes after which I gave up. I actually called the geographic number listed in the database instead of the 0870 number - it did go through to the correct call centre - but it's possible this had something to do with the long waiting time

I had the same experience as you with NatWest Credit Card Centre a couple of weeks ago and like you thought the geographic number on saynoto0870 had perhaps led to an electronic on hold blackhole.  So I reluctantly used the 0870 number via www.dialaround.co.uk at 5p per minute but hung up after 10 minutes on hold.

I called NatWest Serviceline (high level customer complaints) on 0800 505050 and they did some how get someone at the card centre to call me back.

This was all connected with the issuing of a new Mastercard due to a possible card number disclosure resulting from a PayPal spoof email scam.   When I called a few days later about setting up a new direct debit (they neglected to suggest this was necessary to me when I cancelled the previous card) I got through straight away.

NatWest card centre aren't normally that bad on call waiting times (although they do have a horrible new multi layer menu and card verification system) but NatWest's new owners (RBS) have now perpetrated the use of 0845 or 0870 numbers bankwide.  Exactly why NatWest Actionline is 0845 and Nat West Card Centre is 0870 is anyone's guess.

wrote on Sep 1^st, 2005 at 8:31pm:

I felt afterwards that perhaps my time and sanity is worth more than the phone bill, and that if I'd rung an 0845 or even an 0870 number, and got a sensible answer quickly then paying might have been worth it.

Three customer services is in India but on an 0870 number.  Most call centres with geographic number alternatives are in the UK as are the few remaining ones that only have geographic phone numbers.  There is no correlation between paying extra and getting good service.  TopUpTv are on an 0871 number and have abysmal customer service.  They also have no geographic number alternative.

Not all Indian call centres are bad.  The DinersClub one has staff who have been selected especially for their ability to speak Western English and Onetel directory enquiries staff in India are in my experience as good as those who man uk BT directory enquiry call centres but are free of charge to Onetel customers.

O2's call centres are fairly dire. I spoke to about five of them in succession last week about a very simple tariff change and got absolutely nowhere. A bolshie letter to the CEO hasn't yet produced a response either.

And as for Vodafone, words fail me!

John

wrote on Sep 1^st, 2005 at 8:51pm:

O2's call centres are fairly dire. I spoke to about five of them in succession last week about a very simple tariff change and got absolutely nowhere. A bolshie letter to the CEO hasn't yet produced a response either. And as for Vodafone, words fail me!

Ah yes I forgot about O2 who I used to be a customer with.  They make their PAYG customers call them on an 0870 number, or at least they used to when I was with them.  But their staff were some of the most rude and unhelpful I have ever encountered, except of course on BT 150 - but at least that's free.

Vodafone staff are normally quite helpful but call queuing times have lately gone to hell and many of their commercial practices for Pay as You Go customers (no way at all to check what you have been charged for calls) are absolutely deplorable.  Their new "Stop the Clock" and "Passport" deals (available to PAYG as well as contract customers) do however finally show them beginning to respond to a combination of both price pressure from Three and to threats from the European Union to cut mobile phone roaming costs soon or else.

"or else" we will spend 2 years writing a european statement which says what everyone knows anyway, and which wont be legally binding (cos that costs an extra few years).
Oh wait no thats not the EU thats OfCon!!

Id also say the BBC, (banning(as in no staff can comment on anything), black-marking(as in that black pen that comes out on every FOI) and censorship(FOI again)).

wrote on Sep 1^st, 2005 at 10:51pm:

Id also say the BBC, (banning(as in no staff can comment on anything), black-marking(as in that black pen that comes out on every FOI) and censorship(FOI again))

The BBC Information Capita call centre in Belfast earn top marks for total stupidity and seemingly complete disinterest in the matter they take calls about (namely radio and television broadcasts).

Unfortunately there is almost never a queue and you get through to staff straight away.  This means they therefore lack one of the essential prerequisites of a really bad 0870 call centre operation.  Namely lengthy call queues.

Hi mc661,

May I point out that it is in fact "Ofcom" to whom I believe you are referring. (This is a contraction of the Office of/ or for Communications)?

why thanks for that

OfCon is my way of saying ofcom cos it is a CON.

A new vote for NatWest Card Protection which is actually run on their behalf by some other bunch of card protection ripoff merchants who do not disclose their name when you call.

I telephoned the Freephone 0808 100 4420 number listed on this website and also on my Natwest Card Protection key fob.  I have previously used this number to successfully amend card details several times without problem.

Tonight when I called the first time I was told it was only an emergency card loss number and I would have to call back on their 0870 number.  I queried this when I could use the 0808 number perfectly well before but the guy refused to budge.

So I called back again and said I was calling from overseas and what was their geographic number for overseas numbers for card amendments.  Whereupon the new guy I spoke to said he could amend my card details.  After he had amended them I asked why I had to say I was calling from overseas to get him to amend them.  He gave some baloney about how they didn't get many overseas callers wanting to amend card details so rather than having a geographic number they would take the request on the 0808 number instead.  But I look at the key fob here and see the number +44 1905 544 644 quite clearly printed on it.  I also used that number tonight too but they again refused to amend my card details because I did not say I was calling from overseas.

So let us not think that any of these operations are the innocent victims of a telecoms salesmen long ago when they knew no better about 0870 numbers.

The reality is that due to this website and other extensive media publicity large numbers of people are now calling on their 01904 or 0808 number and they don't like it or losing their ill gotten 0870 profits.

Of course at least they have not yet descended to the level of automatically identifying calls from the uk and refusing to take them.  For that badge of shame we must turn to people like Lousyjet or Alliance & Leicester.

wrote on Sep 7^th, 2005 at 10:22pm:

A new vote for NatWest Card Protection which is actually run on their behalf by some other bunch of card protection ripoff merchants who do not disclose their name when you call.

From the numbers you quote, it appears to be operated by Card Protection Plan (CPP). I've contacted this company as I have a policy with them. They appear to have no sense of morality and claim that 0870 numbers are the only way to contact them. Search the database for CPP and you'll find some alternatives. I suspect that their 0870 numbers go to different 01904 numbers, as do their freephone emergency lines.

I contacted CPP towards the end of last year and after some research online of who's who at CPP, I emailed Dianne Cheesebrough who was/is Group Operations Director. I received no reply from her. I also wrote to the complaints department who replied and gave me the usual baloney about call routing. No justification why I and other customers should have to pay more for this after already paying a policy premium.

My post apologising to mc661 for misinterpreting his use of "Ofcon" seems to have been deleted in its entirety, and also NGM's response, without any mention or indeed even of why? This is approaching the ridiculous, since it does not even seem to have been moved to anywhere else!

I repeat mc661, I was suffering from jetlag, having just come back from holiday, and I did not comprehend the inference of your distortion. Sorry.

Is there any reason for which this post might get deleted also. If so I might get the message of finality.

NGM,

It seems to me that 2 posts of yours in this thread have disappeared also. Is this true?

wrote on Sep 8^th, 2005 at 11:24pm:

NGM, It seems to me that 2 posts of yours in this thread have disappeared also. Is this true?

I agree that two of my posts in this thread (if not more) also seem to have been deleted.   I received three emails advising of new messages in this thread overnight but only two of those messages are now there.

Is this the result of more finger trouble by Dave?  Either deliberate or accidental?

It's probably the software forum again playing up similiar to what it did on the London Bombing before it was accidently deleted by a Mod.

Daniel is looking into other alternatives I believe but I don't know how he is getting on.

I did notice that YaBB have released an upgrade but I notice its still in its beta testing stages.

Probably the one thing that could be putting Daniel off changing is whether this potential new forum software is capable of importing all the existing stuff from this forum otherwise they would have to start from scratch.

I could be wrong but I'm sure MSE had similar problems.

DLA are the worst of the lot in my opinion,
then Westcot, then scottish gas!

wrote on Sep 10^th, 2005 at 8:28pm:

DLA are the worst of the lot in my opinion, then Westcot, then scottish gas!

Do you mean DVLA?

wrote on Sep 10^th, 2005 at 10:51pm:

Do you mean DVLA?

Nope, DLA.. Disability living allowance.. Thankfully ive never had to deal with DVLA yet..

wrote on Sep 10^th, 2005 at 11:05pm:

Nope, DLA.. Disability living allowance.. Thankfully ive never had to deal with DVLA yet..

Slightly off-topic and I'll probably have a mod on my back but I assume you are aware that their is now a geographical number for the DLA/AA from the FOI request I put in to them.

wrote on Sep 11^th, 2005 at 6:27pm:

Slightly off-topic and I'll probably have a mod on my back but I assume you are aware that their is now a geographical number for the DLA/AA from the FOI request I put in to them.

The should also be chased at a high level to force them to retrain all staff not to call these numbers BT National Rate and BT Local Rate which is an offence under Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987.  The directors of this outfit should also be chased to publish the pence per minute cost of the calls in line with latest rules from the Advertising Standards Authority.

Since I started this thread bbb you have my full permission for this small related to topic diversion.

I was only joking about the mod bit as it was only a small diversion.

The guy I spoke with who dealt with the FOI request genuinely seemed surprised that 0845 wasn't local and didn't realise it was so expensive from mobiles. They had always used 0845 (in fact I think they used a 0345 before the numbering plan change) so back then it was local rate so now its all down to lack of education in that this is no longer true but no-one is telling them.

Anyhow NGM, out of the candidates so far have you an idea who is currently top of your list to be passed to this journalist for the most abusive 0870 call centre?

wrote on Sep 11^th, 2005 at 6:57pm:

Anyhow NGM, out of the candidates so far have you an idea who is currently top of your list to be passed to this journalist for the most abusive 0870 call centre?

I think its as I suspected when I was asked the question.  Various different call centres qualify as most abusibe on various different counts.  BBC is top of the list for deliberately and quite cynically withholding information and deliberately lying about the call cost.

But I suspect that local JobCentres may be at the top of the list by still claiming these calls are Local Call Rate when they of all people should not be costing their callers a premium rate call:-

http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/pdfs/ContactCentresRev3.pdf

Obviously those administering the DLA would tie with them on this front though.

Incredibly Ofcom still allows BT to missell 0845 and 0870 as being Local Rate and National Rate calls despite the views of Leicester City Council Trading Standards on the matter over two years.  It is this total incompetence by Ofcom that leads to everyone else misunderstanding the true cost of making these calls:-

see here

I entirely agree NGM. That is where the full responsibility for the confusion over the cost of these calls lies, and it is increasingly clear that this is very intentional and deliberate!

wrote on Sep 11^th, 2005 at 7:41pm:

But I suspect that local JobCentres may be at the top of the list by still claiming these calls are Local Call Rate when they of all people should not be costing their callers a premium rate call...

When I put in my FOI request asking for geo's for their job searches and new claims line, I specifically mentioned that calls cost a lot more than the proper local rate and is upto 40ppm from mobiles and therefore they can't expect the jobless to ring them if all they use is a mobile. I'm still waiting for a reply on that FOI come to think about it.

wrote on Sep 11^th, 2005 at 7:56pm:

I entirely agree NGM. That is where the full responsibility for the confusion over the cost of these calls lies, and it is increasingly clear that this is very intentional and deliberate!

Dorf,

Are you aware of Ofcom's Statutory Duties (all of which involving protecting citizens and consumers and not the business interests of telecommunications companies) which they appear to be in total and utter flagrant disregard of so far as 084/7 is concerned.   They are also in breach of these duties in terms of their decision to allow the abolition of BT Standard Line Rental.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/sdrp/

We should all complain to our MP to get them to ask a parliamentary question to ask why Ofcom is not putting the interests of citizens and consumers first in its actions as it is meant to.

I would like to nominate Alliance and Leicester Business Bank.

Abusive not in the sense of staff being unpleasant (they are pretty good) but in the sense of predatory over incentivised management who ferociously defend their perceived right to rip their customers off using 0870.

They have steadily closed every loophole with staff being instructed not to put callers to non 0870 through to requested departments.

wrote on Sep 14^th, 2005 at 3:05pm:

They have steadily closed every loophole with staff being instructed not to put callers to non 0870 through to requested departments.

Then why not close your account with Alliance & Leicester Business Bank and move it to the nice people at Nationwide who do everything in the customer's favour.

Then send an email to the managing director of Alliance & Leicester and the Business editor and personal finance editors of every major national newspaper saying just why you have taken your business away from them.  Oh and copy it to all the other directors and senior managers of Alliance & Leicester:-

http://www.alliance-leicester-group.co.uk/html/general/board.asp

You might also appreciate the sentiments expressed in this customer review of the said bank:-

http://www.reviewcentre.com/review135053.html

Don't Nationwide offer business banking?  I am a customer of 23 years standing with NatWest and 2 years standing with Nationwide and believe me the difference is just massive.  I have never been cross with Nationwide on anything and I am cross with NatWest/Royal Bank of Scotland about almost all of their 101 different ripoffs and scams.  These go much wider than just using 0845 and 0870 numbers

Wow! A dialogue with Non-geographical Man. I'm not worthy....

Many thanks for your suggestions.

1. The commercicial banking sector is not as competitive as that for personal accounts and I'm now on my 4th and 5th commercial bank accounts in 10 years. They all try to use 0870/0845. I'ts a very complex charging matrix out there and Nationwide do not do Commercial accounts.

2. A&L are the best bank for paying in cash and their merchant services operation was very competitive but is increasingly coming into line with the others.

3. By modifying my account behaviour I have managed to reduce my call frequency to  a 2 minute call on a saturday morning once every 5-6 weeks. They don't get a lot of 0870 money from me but that's not the point. They want the 0870 money badly and I'm cross that I can't beat them.

4. It would be a bit pointless to move to one of the others just to pay a lot more in other charges. I've fought a long battle on this and only had to admit defeat a few months ago when the last of my back door routes failed. If my customers stopped using cash I would close the account tomorrow.

5. Your comments on RBS are interesting. I use A&L to pay money in. Bounce it across to RBS who I use to pay it out. No problems with RBS. Most done on the web and a geographic number to call when needed.

6. Agree with you on Nationwide but they are not quite as goody goody as they like to make out. Top Dog is paid shed loads of money a la the predatory PLC banks. 0845 is widespread. Claims number for their travel insurance is 0870. I forgot to pay a £6.50 credit card bill and got slugged with a £20 charge. Their credit card is very very good though.

All I want to do is to control my own phone charges. With the superb resources on this site I do so. A&L is the only one to have , I hope temporarily, beaten me. However at less than 10p per month it's a modest defeat.

RBJ

I did check on Nationwide after my post and realised that they didn't offer business banking.  May be that is what makes them a "building society" then apart from obviously their mutual status?  As a personal customer they seem to offer just the same facilities as NatWest but a lot more cheaply and efficiently.

NatWest have dreadful rates of interest on their online savings account and appalling fees for withdrawing cash on the credit or debit card or making purchases with the said cards overseas.  Withdrawing cash on a Nationwide Visa blue debit card is fee free overseas but costs 4.65% with Natwest subject to a £2 minimum.  Even using a credit card in a store with NatWest costs you 2.65% foreign exchange rate levy.

As to calling 0870 with Alliance & Leicester you can call a bit cheaper with http://www.dialaround.co.uk/rates.php and their 5p per minute 0844 number for dialling "national rate" 0870 numbers - 0844 566 7676.  You waste may be 15 extra seconds of call time having to  call via this number but still a good saving of 2.5p per minute on say a 15 minute call.

Or set up an account with www.18185.co.uk which costs 4p connection plus 4p for the first minute to 0870 numbers and then 4p per minute thereafter.  This makes them cheaper than dialaround if the 0870 call lasts 5 minutes or more.

I can't believe there isn't a geographic number for A&L Business banking somewhere?

wrote on Sep 14^th, 2005 at 5:28pm:

I did check on Nationwide after my post and realised that they didn't offer business banking.  May be that is what makes them a "building society" then apart from obviously their mutual status?

Yes they do.

I have had my business account with Nationwide for the last 13 years. It is called a BusinessInvestor Account and is excellent if you fit the right profile for the account. There isn't an overdraft facility and provided you don't write more than 6 cheques a month there are no charges so although hopeless for some businesses it knocks the spots off all other providers if you can comply with these restrictions. I've found the service excellent, BUT the non-banking status does present some limitations. Happy to talk off-line if you want more details. I would definitely recommend if you don't go overdrawn and make limited numbers of payments,

NGM,

I have only just noticed that I did not respond to your point to me concerning Ofcom's duties: " Are you aware of Ofcom's Statutory Duties (all of which involving protecting citizens and consumers and not the business interests of telecommunications companies) which they appear to be in total and utter flagrant disregard of so far as 084/7 is concerned.   They are also in breach of these duties in terms of their decision to allow the abolition of BT Standard Line Rental."

Yes I am of course aware of their responsibilities under the Acts which they themselves are so fond of referring to; but  although they spend considerable time and effort referring to these obligations placed on them they never comply with them. This is clearly because they have not so far been accountable, since Parliament has not undertaken its statutory duties in respect of them. I believe it is the responsibility of Parliament ultimately to censure them for these failures, particularly within the Parliamentary committee system.

There have been a number of specific instances where Ofcom's failures in respect of the Acts have been raised by Parliamentary committees, for example the Public Accounts Committee. Generally however no actions have been taken by any of these committees to bring Ofcom to account, or to take any punitive action with respect to their failures and thus the failures of senior figures within Ofcom.

As we have discussed before this is probably principally due to the fact that Ofcom is ultimately controlled by the government, and the government do not want to rock the boat, particularly in their current predicament of fiscal problems, with diminishing revenue and increasing expenditure. (The present revenue the government obtains from the scams helps them in this predicament.) The committee system is thus somewhat muted at present.

I have indeed continuously referred to these responsibilities under the Acts and their continuous failure to fulfil them in my communications with Ofcom, my responses to their consultations, letters to my own MP and MEP, and communications to various other MPs with a stated concern about these failures and to various Parliamentary committee chairmen. All of this has of course been to absolutely no avail and Ofcom and their senior figures continue to be uncensured for these blatant failures under the Acts.

Dorf,

I didn't realise you were also fighting the battle on so many different fronts.

The whole reason Ofcom don't act properly on 084/7 is because it seems to be a key plank in the overall New Labour policy of massive rises in stealth taxes (that range from 084/7 to swingeing MOT, driving license and passport fees to massive council tax rises caused by cuts in central government funding of local government) so that they can claim not to have raised Income Tax.

Yet all of these stealth tax rises have the greatest impact on those on low incomes who one would have thought were amongst the core of traditional New Labour supporters.

Any how I have sent you a Private Message about some of this stuff.

NGM

Yes NGM, they are the people most hit by all of these. It is certainly the root of the government's desire for the scams to continue, with as I am always trying to emphasize QUEUING on revenue generating numbers, which is how all the really big money is being made.

wrote on Sep 15^th, 2005 at 3:28pm:

Yes NGM, they are the people most hit by all of these. It is certainly the root of the government's desire for the scams to continue, with as I am always trying to emphasize QUEUING on revenue generating numbers, which is how all the really big money is being made.

Dorf,

Sadly Ofcom's latest survery for the NTS Options for the Future consultation has already concluded there is no relationship between the length of the call queues and the amount charged by the telcos for the call.

They obviously use the same people to carry out customer surveys as Dell Computer Corporation. :o

Well NGM,

We are hardly surprised are we? This "conclusion" was inevitable if the government's total revenue in from all their perpetrations of these scams was to continue?

It is quite clear that a "consultation" to Ofcom is a matter of: "Don't confuse us with the FACTS. Our mind is already made up!" Send us your opinions anyway (on our appropriate form please) so that we can appear to be undertaking a "consultation" and considering consumers' views, which it is our duty to do, so as to protect the interests of consumers. (It's OK though, because even if in the end we do not observe our responsibilities under the Acts there is no one who will censure us!)

I just find it very disappointing that a major uk regulator can be this cynical, manipulative and devious

Even the FSA have heavily fined those insurance companies involved in the major pensions misselling scams.

Ofcom's excuse is that it only costs most telecoms consumer another £50 or so extra on their bills a quarter or £200 a year (actually they pitch it rather differently in terms of it only being a few pence a call extra but this is in fact what it typically adds up to).  So nothing to worry about then?! :o ::)

The fact that the whole NTS industry is worth over £1 billion a year and these calls are around 25% of all uk call volumes seems to rather elude them.

Obviously changing the revenue share and the tariffs is a big deal and would take time and a study and negotiation but Ofcom are so useless that over 15 months after BT Standard Line Rental was abolished they haven't even passed a regulation stopping BT using the terms Lo-Call and NationalCall to sell and bill calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers.  Now if that doesn't say that Ofcom are a bunch of BT poodles then I don't know what does.

I too am on the quest for a geographical number for Alliance & Leicester Small Business Banking. There seems to be an access route for other customers.
regards