I work with the telecoms industry within the UK.
We manage near to 80 helpline numbers.
We operate all of these a with either 0870 or 0800 numbers, depending upon our agreements with our clients.

This web site has been an interesting read to see what the percieved opinion is of 0870's.

The fundlemental reason for firms to use 08xx numbers is to allow for stats, Disaster recovery & onward flexibilty NOT for money making reasons. Settng up these lines & renting the numbers sometimes cost more that the revenue made on these lines. 1 pence per minute.


Were these helplines to change office locations from a London office (020) to a Nottingham office (01159), the amount of work generated & the cost/upset of changing documents, web sites & TV ads with the new number would be huge.. at the end of the day the customer would pay this cost one way or another.  Plus should people use old documents, they'd end up at a dead end message... Not really a customer focused approach.


By using 0870 numbers we aim to provide a better/more consistant service than using a local number.
Were we wanting to make money on these services, an 09xx number would be used.

[glb]Were these helplines to change office locations from a London office (020) to a Nottingham office (01159), the amount of work generated & the cost/upset of changing documents, web sites & TV ads with the new number would be huge.. at the end of the day the customer would pay this cost one way or another.  Plus should people use old documents, they'd end up at a dead end message... Not really a customer focused approach.[/glb]


A very fair point.

So, what do you have to say to customers who find an old document from 10 years ago, which lists a geo number, from before 0870 became widespread.  Are you concerned about those customers or not?

If you had read more in this web site, you would have found that stats, and moving the terminating number IS possible with geo numbers, as it is with non geo numbers.

And why should people pay more to contact you.  When I post a letter to a business address, it's either a freepost envelope, or you put a 1st, or 2nd class stamp on the envelope.  If I write a letter to a residential address, again, I put a 1st or 2nd class stamp, and I don't have to pay a premium to post a letter to a business.

So, why is it OK for us to pay a premium for making phone contact with a business.  Your benefits include call monitoring, and being able to change the terminating number, but what extra service do we get?

If you want call stats, etc, then pay for them.  Next you'll be moving to premium rate 090 numbers because you want us to make a contribution to the company directors golf games!!

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

The fundlemental reason for firms to use 08xx numbers is to allow for stats, Disaster recovery & onward flexibilty NOT for money making reasons.

Surely this is basic business common sense. You spend this money to set this up for stats, etc to do one of the following:

To minimise your overheads by analysing costs, providing flexibility, insurance against disasters, etc.

OR

To maximise revenue by increasing sales or marketing more profitable lines by analysing your calls

OR

Improving customer relations which in turn will improve revenue or reduce overheads or both.


These are all good things to do and as someone who owns his own company I do the same.


My question is why the hell should I pay for (or contribute to) your costs in achieving a lower cost base or higher revenue.

If you ned to incur a cost to improve your business, build that into your business plan. If it improves your profitability (and you shouldn't do it if it doesn't) you won't need to charge your customers extra. If you have to it obviously isn't a cost effective expense is it?

You seem to have a good arguement for using 0800, but not 0870.

I don't do this to my customers. I have more respect for them.

Moving Geo numbers from London to Nottingham would incur a cost on each call made to the old number.
Our firm would pick up this cost, which in turn gets past onto the customer!  ( Someone has to pay!!)

Other benefits to customers include Disaster recovery. Were one of our centre's lose the ability to take calls... ( Such as the whole of London with the bombings), the 08 platform allows us to redirect the calls at the flick of a switch.. again giving the customer a better seemless experience regardless of what is happening in localised area's.


IF we could get a true local/national rate number, which  Joe Bloggs payed normal rates on & we didn't get billed on, we would run all of our services on them.. However there isn't such a thing at present.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

IF we could get a true local/national rate number, which  Joe Bloggs payed normal rates on & we didn't get billed on, we would run all of our services on them.. However there isn't such a thing at present.

Have you or your company suggested this to Ofcom? Have you responded to previous consultation(s) suggesting this?

Not doing so is much like not voting in an election and then objecting to decisions made by government. :-X


Quote:

We operate all of these a with either 0870 or 0800 numbers, depending upon our agreements with our clients.

Whilst still a rip-off, why no mention of 0845?

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:19pm:

Moving Geo numbers from London to Nottingham would incur a cost on each call made to the old number. Our firm would pick up this cost, which in turn gets past onto the customer!  ( Someone has to pay!!) Other benefits to customers include Disaster recovery. Were one of our centre's lose the ability to take calls... ( Such as the whole of London with the bombings), the 08 platform allows us to redirect the calls at the flick of a switch.. again giving the customer a better seemless experience regardless of what is happening in localised area's. IF we could get a true local/national rate number, which  Joe Bloggs payed normal rates on & we didn't get billed on, we would run all of our services on them.. However there isn't such a thing at present.

Still missing the point. A business is there to make money for its shareholders. Your only justifcation for incurring a cost is if it improves your profitability by either increasing your turnover or reducing your expenses (improved customer satisfaction tends to do both of these).

Consequently there is no need to pass all or part of the cost on by way of an 0870 number as you have already recovered the cost (in increased revenue or, reduced cost - just to labour the point)

If you haven't done so to make the change was a bad business move in the first place.

For crying out loud this is basic business. Your "someone has to pay" comment is nonesense. If the cost of an activity isn't returned in increased revenue or reduced cost DON'T DO IT = YOU WILL GO BUST!

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

By using 0870 numbers we aim to provide a better/more consistant service than using a local number. Were we wanting to make money on these services, an 09xx number would be used.

Rubbish! Here in the United States, with possibly the world's most sophisticated telecommunications system and advanced customer service techniques, there is no equivalent to 0870 nor will there ever be. Of course there is a well-developed toll-free system to compare with NTS, and intelligent routing, together with stats and all the other so-called advantages of 0870, can and are provided on toll-free and geographic area codes. Any costs are factored into the whole cost of providing the service and the customer is not expected to make "micro(mega)-payments" to OCPs/TCPs. Customer service here is generally excellent and does not need 087X to provide, as you state, a "better/more consistent service". Learn from those that know how to provide *service* without exploiting the customer.

0870 is used because, in the UK, the regulator is weak, and the public apathetic about such issues probably due to being bamboozled by the clandestine and deceitful way 0870 scammers operate.

As I have said before, please explain why it costs more for a telephone customer sitting at home in say Glasgow to call BA's 0870 call centre in Newcastle that it does to call the one in New York City.

The whole NTS regime is fundamentally rotten and corrupt, and nowhere else on this planet are such numbers used to such a degree as that within the United Kingdom, including the disgraceful and inappropriate use by government agencies operating terrorism casualty numbers.

When you mention the "RIP OFF" prices, these call rates are around the 8ppm rate.
In the grand scheme of things where a Starbucks coffee may cost upwards of £2.50 ( & then some) I don't see this figure as breaking the bank.

When calling from Land lines to mobile phones a much higher rate is charged for a service which is frankly appalling. ( drop outs, missed calls etc) & yet people seem more concerned with what megapixel their camera phone is!!!  

The revenue made on 0870 is generally less than 1 pence per minute.   So it is hardly a great revenue maker for these firms... The key company to make money on these services ( 0800's, 0870 or even geo's) are the Telco firms themselves.

Surely the main target for all is Ofcom/telcos???

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:51pm:

Surely the main target for all is Ofcom/telcos???

Together with the 0870 scammers, all three bodies are guilty of propping up a corrupt numbering system that exists only to generate money from the public.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:51pm:

When you mention the "RIP OFF" prices, these call rates are around the 8ppm rate. In the grand scheme of things where a Starbucks coffee may cost upwards of £2.50 ( & then some) I don't see this figure as breaking the bank.

I wouldn't mind paying if it was 8p I was paying. It is the hundreds of pounds I pay because of the hundreds of minutes my phones are being used.

I pay nothing for my geographic number calls. Yesterday I took part in a conference call to America for an hour for under £3.

I have no gripe with premium rate numbers and I don't care how much they charge. They have a legitimate use.

What I object to is the 0870/0845 etc numbers which are to all intent and purposes premium rate numbers (for the consumer) but which are little understood (by most consumers) and who are intentionally (or unintentionally) conned into using them.

How many times have I been told by someone that an 0845 number is the same cost as a local call?! NO IT ISN'T.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:51pm:

When you mention the "RIP OFF" prices, these call rates are around the 8ppm rate. In the grand scheme of things where a Starbucks coffee may cost upwards of £2.50 ( & then some) I don't see this figure as breaking the bank.

You might be happy to pay £2.50 for a coffee in Starbucks, but for a lot of people who might not be as well of as you, £2.50 is a huge amount of money. They can avoid visiting coffee shops, but if they need to contact a company (often because the company has made a mistake, messed up an order, something has gone wrong, etc.) they have no choice but pay 8p per minute - not in total (so if the calls amount to 30 minutes in total, that's a Starbucks coffee).

Whether I can afford it or not, I don't drink coffee in Starbucks as I can make an instant coffee for a few pence, or buy a whole bag of filter coffee for the same price. However, if I need to phone a company or certain Government departments, I have no choice but to use the 0870 number - particurly annoying when I'm already forced to pay BT £10.50 a month for supposedly cheaper rates that don't apply to the numbers I most frequently have to call.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

....Were we wanting to make money on these services, an 09xx number would be used.

You will find that if you were to choose an 09xx number that cost 8ppm (same as an 0870) then you would receive even fewer calls and therefore loss of business, etc simply because everyone one knows that an 09xx number is premium even if it actually cost the same as an 087x number.

How many of Joe Puplic know that an 087x number costs between 8ppm and 10ppm daytime and can earn the company revenue?  The answer is very, very few and this is why they are used simply because they can earn revenue and most joe public think that these calls are national rate which they are clearly not and are definitely not aware that the company is earning revenue from keeping us waiting.

Using an 09x number would mean that you would have to advertise the cost of the call and call queuing is NOT allowed.  Therefore if I ring Sky on a premium 09x number that was priced at 8ppm, I wouldn't start paying until they answered which is more acceptable than paying 8ppm to be held in a queue which can be over 30minutes and then paying to speak to their customer services.

I realise that during peak demands queues can't be helped that much but had I rung Sky on an equivalent cost 09x number I'd only be paying for the call when it's actually answered by a human being.  That same call to a geographical could be as less than 3p for the whole call.

So in the above circumstances and speaking to a human being for 5minutes but being held in a queue for 30minutes would cost me 40p for the whole call when ringing an 09x number charged at same rate as an 087x.  That same call on an 087x numbers would cost £2.80.

An example of companies using 087x numbers as revenue generating without informing the public has recently came to light with the PostCode Lottery that use an 0871 (cost is actually 10ppm from a BT landline) but they claim it's local rate.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

The fundlemental reason for firms to use 08xx numbers is to allow for stats, Disaster recovery & onward flexibilty NOT for money making reasons. Settng up these lines & renting the numbers sometimes cost more that the revenue made on these lines. 1 pence per minute.

Come on Ted your talking to us now, not your clients.You are no doubt aware that the same facilties are now available using Geo numbers.This excuse just doesnt wash any more.

Not quite relevant Ted but since when did pence become a singular noun.. 1 penny  2 pence or pennies.
Your excuses for the rip off08 numbers are very very lame.Perhaps you can tell us which cmpany you work for so that we can make sure not to give you any business.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

Plus should people use old documents, they'd end up at a dead end message... Not really a customer focused approach.

I'd rather hear a message saying 'please call our new number on 01xxx' than having to pay 8p per minute just to avoid the possibility that an office may shift location. ::)

[glb]When you mention the "RIP OFF" prices, these call rates are around the 8ppm rate.
In the grand scheme of things where a Starbucks coffee may cost upwards of £2.50 ( & then some) I don't see this figure as breaking the bank.[/glb]


And some of those "adult entertainment" lines cost £1 per minute, which is of course more than your telephone service.

I personally don't drink Starbucks coffee, perhaps because they don't venture down as far as Cornwall!!

But we do have a choice between whether to drink Starbucks coffee, or drink in a cheaper location.  We also have a choice on whether to contact adult lines.

I have to make a call to a company later this week, to complain that they didn't refund the correct amount of money that they promised to.  Their contact number is an 0870 number.  Thankfully this site does list an alternative, which I shall be trying, but I can't exactly decide "I'm not making the call" or "I'll phone another company"  Also, had the company got things right in the first place, I would not need to phone any number at all!!

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:19pm:

Other benefits to customers include Disaster recovery. Were one of our centre's lose the ability to take calls... ( Such as the whole of London with the bombings), the 08 platform allows us to redirect the calls at the flick of a switch.. again giving the customer a better seemless experience regardless of what is happening in localised area's.

But I could do this years ago on normal BT geog numbers. Why not now?

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:43pm:

Rubbish! Here in the United States, with possibly the world's most sophisticated telecommunications system and advanced customer service techniques, there is no equivalent to 0870 nor will there ever be. Of course there is a well-developed toll-free system to compare with NTS, and intelligent routing, together with stats and all the other so-called advantages of 0870, can and are provided on toll-free and geographic area codes. Any costs are factored into the whole cost of providing the service and the customer is not expected to make "micro(mega)-payments" to OCPs/TCPs. Customer service here is generally excellent and does not need 087X to provide, as you state, a "better/more consistent service". Learn from those that know how to provide *service* without exploiting the customer.

I entirely agree with idb. Why is it that the UK telephone system is SO special and unique that revenue sharing numbers "have to be used" to provide the advanced features that are provided elsewhere in the world within the normal geographic system? What is so unique about BT's network that it alone amongst the "civilised" world cannot achieve all these services without resorting to a huge scam?


Quote:

0870 is used because, in the UK, the regulator is weak, and the public apathetic about such issues probably due to being bamboozled by the clandestine and deceitful way 0870 scammers operate.

...and here I think is the answer to my hypothetical questions above. The answer is - because BT can and gets away with it! Right from the start, using a prefix that many people would automatically assume was a toll free call (08xx) shows the cynical and manipulative approach to the whole scam. Add a rip-off culture that seems totally pervasive in the UK today; an ineffective and corrupt regulator and a largely apathetic population...well, hey let's go for it!!    :-/

As NGM wrote in another post today - read this and weep! What a pathetic set of excuses Telecoms_Ted puts up in defence! >:(

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

I work with the telecoms industry within the UK. We manage near to 80 helpline numbers. We operate all of these a with either 0870 or 0800 numbers, depending upon our agreements with our clients.

I feel as if I am getting flamed a touch here!!!

As initially mentioned, our services we offer are for our clients & are set up in agreement with them & their users. (Helplines with a service at the end of them)  We utilse the 08x platform to give us advanced features due to the constraints put upon us with Geo numbers... this was really my main point!

Don't misunderstand me.... I agree with it being wrong to call an 0870 number to complain or as a main contact number. ( We ruled this out for our firm within minutes of it being suggested.) I feel that the carriers are getting away with these cash cows and will be very slow to change.
Clearer numbering plans should have been set up on the "big number" days, with better use made of some codes.

I'm not sure how you educate Joe Public of what we have at the moment, as it seems hard enough to let people know the proper code for London is 020  not 0207  :-)

wrote on Sep 29^th, 2005 at 7:54am:

I feel as if I am getting flamed a touch here!!! I'm not sure how you educate Joe Public of what we have at the moment, as it seems hard enough to let people know the proper code for London is 020  not 0207  :-)

As one of those guilty of the flaming let me apologise, but as you probably appreciate some of us get angry about the whole affair. I first joined the the forum after the London Bombings as I was so angry that an 0870 number was used for the helpline.

In answer to you question about how do you educate Joe Public, I think it is too late. Joe Public doesn't take that much interest and with the exception of the 0800 number is now completely indoctrinated in the 0845/0870 myth of local and national numbers, so no matter what you do re education it will only touch the surface.

Unfortunately the only solution would be to get rid of them and start again. I have no idea if this is practical. It sounds horrendous.

I would suggest with 09 numbers.

There are obviously legitimate uses of the 09 numbers for raising revenue (eg competitions, paying for support, etc) and it could be used for low tariffs where you need to just cover the cost of supply the facility like a pressure group.

The area where it may be a problem is if organisations want to use 09 as their contact number as it may put people off if they associate 09 with very high cost of calls (ie if they think 09 is always at a premium cost). However if the cost is highlighted (as it would have to be) then that should be ok. Anyway at the end of the day that is the organisations business decision. Clearly they will lose contacts and therefore business by supplying an 09 mumber so generally this would a stupid decision as Joe Public would now be properly informed. However there may be circumstances where it would be good business sense for doing so e.g. discouraging calls that are not going to lead to business the cost of which hit the bottomline.

They will have to weigh up the lost business against the reduced costs.

The important thing is Joe Public is making an informed decision as to whether or not make the call.

Under no circumstances should organisations that are there to serve the public use these numbers eg Government organisations. In the worst cases they hit the vunlerable.

In a nut shell the only solution that I can see working now is to remove all 08xx numbers except 0800 as these numbers are discredited (and will remain so for a loong time)

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:51pm:

The revenue made on 0870 is generally less than 1 pence per minute.   So it is hardly a great revenue maker for these firms...

If you only earn 1p per minute off your 0870s you are obviously an inept and incompetent call centre operator not acting in the best interests of your shareholders and your callc centre clients as well as not in the best interests of your customers.  3p per minute is routinely offered on 0870 and 4p is possible for higher call volumes.

The only company that only offers 1p per minute on 0870 to the call centre operator is BT and the only people stupid enough to use BT for 0870 termination are lazy and ignorant telecoms managers who fail to do their job properly by shopping around the marketplace.  For christs sake its bad enough to let your customers be ripped off at call charges of £4.50 per hour compared to 3p per hour (see www.1899.com) but to let all the financial benefit of this scam go mainly to BT is just criminal laziness by your company.

The argument you outline is totally out of date as you can now have geographic voip numbers and these voip numbers can be redirected anywhere you like and be issued on any uk exchange (see www.sipgate.co.uk).  Also your argument about disaster recover or permanent relocation is totally bankrupt and nonsensical as for a small fee your telecoms provider will put an announcement on a geographic number giving all the customers the new number to call.  The customer then just changes the number in their own records.  I know perfectly well that this facility is still offered by the telecoms network because i frequently encounter such messages on old geographic numbers for call centres instructing me to call their new 0870 number. :o

For you to say it is only a few p per minute extra is to indicate a complete lack of brain power and critical faculty.

For instance 20 minutes of calls to 0870 a day costs £1.50  And in a 90 day billing quarter that is 65 working days so £97.50 of 0870 calls.  Then factor in making say 10 minutes of calls a day to 0845 peak rate and we add another £21 giving us £117.50 of 0845 and 0870 calls in a quarter for 30 minutes of calls a day to NTS numbers (hardly a lot I'm sure you will agree).  Yet if these calls had been geographic 01/02 and the customer had been buying an all 01/02 calls plans with www.tele2.co.uk at £7.50 per month then they would have all been covered by this along with the customer's regular calls to relatives and so on.  So £117.50 a quarter extra gives us £470 per annum for calls that work no better for the customer than ones starting 01 or 02.

So tell me now if you still just see it as only a few pence extra per minute?  For £470 a year I could pay my car insurance or all my gas and electricity bills!

If you were to look beyond the pence per minute rate, you would see that there are other factors behind decisions to opt for BT/COLT/AT&T etc.
Multiple billing centres, cost of multiple accounts, cost of ownership, multiple points of contacts plus no continuity would be a nightmare to manage.
Sure if I was a one man band then I could afford to look at cheap & chearful solutions & change them on a monthly basis with no loyalty to anyone.
Running large networks requires long term relationships to be built with QOS maintained as a number 1 objective.

Many historic large corporate networks  have large DDI ranges scattered across geo numbers which inturn fit within a closed numbered network.  This will not change overnight.

The total cost of running a network & the visibilty of the total picture doesn't allow for cherry picking in the market place.

OK - this is an old tried & tested approach - but it works.

wrote on Sep 30^th, 2005 at 7:36am:

If you were to look beyond the pence per minute rate, you would see that there are other factors behind decisions to opt for BT/COLT/AT&T etc. Multiple billing centres, cost of multiple accounts, cost of ownership, multiple points of contacts plus no continuity would be a nightmare to manage. Sure if I was a one man band then I could afford to look at cheap & chearful solutions & change them on a monthly basis with no loyalty to anyone. Running large networks requires long term relationships to be built with QOS maintained as a number 1 objective.

But these are your business operational issues and not ours as customers Ted.  So why should we the customer pay extra for you receiving a more sophisticated telecoms service on your old telecoms equipment using NGNs?

Answer there is no justification and we the telecoms customer should be charged the same for calling an 084/7 NGN as any 01/02 number but you the call centres should pay an appropriate additional per call or per annum fee to reflect your additional operating convenience.  This is what happens on 0800 numbers but sadly not on 084/7 numbers.

And why isn't there a class of NGN, charged to customers at geographic calling rates, where you don't pay the customer's normal geographic phone call routing cost (as you obviously do on 0800) but you do pay a service fee to the telecoms operators for the value you receive as a call centre in the additional NGN facilities?  And as you control the relationship with your telecoms suppliers the cost of providing these additional services to you by BT et all would now be driven down to their true level, rather than also involving a revenue share rake off that has nothing to do with the additional call routing and logging facilities of NGNs.

These extra facilities you so crave could have been offered by BT et al on GNs.  The only reason they did not is because they combined the offering of NGNs with a whole extra money making scam to their benefit and to the great detriment of retail telephone customers.  But the useless uk telecoms regulators (OFTEL and now Ofcom) failed to spot this or do anything about it for years and years and years.  Yet they are supposed to be there to protect uk citizens and consumers!

Telecoms_Ted wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 10:39am:

Were these helplines to change office locations from a London office (020) to a Nottingham office (01159), the amount of work generated & the cost/upset of changing documents, web sites & TV ads with the new number would be huge..

Absolutely right.  My view is, advertise the 0870 number you want, but make the geographical number available on request and available on your website.  It won't cost you a penny.