Ok people read it and weap:-

New Ofcom NTS Proposals Press Release - Click Here

These proposals are basically as utterly useless and ineffective as were expected apart from banning the 0871 number range and making it transfer to 09.

Ofcom headline in their release that 0870 revenue share is to be ended and then in the small print go on to say that it can continue with call price announcements.  And 0845 numbers used by charities and government departments are to now become more expensive than the formerly deliberately scamming 0870 numbers in many cases.

And  nothing to happen for a year or more on any of this.

The 0844 and 0845 proposals are especially unbelievable when by then there will be almost no 0845 dialup ISP traffic left in 12 months time.  The NEG doctors surgery scamming that Ofcom Communications Director Matt Peacock himself complained about on BBC Radio 4 will be allowed to continue.

The only bright spot in all of this gloom is the fact that our very favourite website will therefore continue to remain very much in business although I think we should also register the domain www.saynoto0845.com and www.saynoto0844.com too.

And here are the full 50 pages and 250 pages worth of traditional totally indecipherable Ofcomese consultation documents.

Also note that they have managed once again to turn this into two consultation documents when they cover only one actual subject.  Presumably this is in the hope that even less people than normal may respond:-

Improved Information About NTS Numbers Consultation 50 Pages - Click Here

NTS - A Way Forward Consultation - 216 Pages - Click Here

These are the documents to which we will have to respond and also complain to our MPs about Ofcom having failed in its primary duties on protecting the interests of uk citizens and consumers as stated at:-

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/sdrp/

The Ofcom update, sent today, lists the following document set:

<<
Ofcom today published new proposals to increase consumer protection measures governing the use of 0870/1 and 0844/5 numbers.

News release

Ofcom consults on new approach to 0870/1 and 0844/5 numbers

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2005/09/nr_20050928

0870/1 and 0844/5 numbers: FAQs

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/mofaq/telecoms/nts/

Consultation

Number Translation Services: A way forward

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/

Separately Ofcom has published two other documents today:

Consultation

Providing citizens and consumers with improved information about Number Translation Services and Premium Rate Services

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_info/

Charges between Communications Providers: Number Translation Services Retail Uplift charge control and Premium Rate Services bad debt surcharge

A Statement and Notification of an SMP Condition and modification of an SMP Condition

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/NTSfin/statement_nts_uplift/
>>

I'm about to wade through all this, but I suspect a whitewash and Ofcom's continued support for a wholly corrupt numbering system.

After a glance at the news release, I've got the following points to make.

1. 0870: End to revenue sharing
Communications providers wishing to charge more than the rate for calls to national-rate geographic numbers would be required to provide a pre-announcement informing the caller of the cost of the call.


wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 11:09am:

Ofcom headline in their release that 0870 revenue share is to be ended and then in the small print go on to say that it can continue with call price announcements.  ....

This statement statement doesn't make it clear whether they mean originating communication providers (OCPs) or terminating communication providers (TCPs). If they mean OCPs, then it's only like what we have now with freephone numbers from most mobiles (although do they have to give a recorded message?) providing that the TCP only receives the same payment they would receive if the call was charged at the geographical rate.

OTOH, if they mean TCP, then that would leave 0870 as a minefield. For those TCPs who choose to have their calls charged above geographical rates, this will force all their customers (ie the service providers, SPs) to either like it or get another number due to the fact that charging is not down to the individual number but blocks of hundreds or thousands.

2. 0871: Re-classified as premium rate
Can't argue with that one, although it will obviously mean alot of upheaval moving 'services', although the whole 0871 prefix could be moved to, say 0902. The only thing is that consumers may be confused about this and think that 0870 has moved to 0902 and dial the 0902 'equivalent' resulting in a wrong number and an expensive charge.

3. 0845: No changes for the next two years
The most likely outcome of this leaves 0845 costing more than 0870! How do you explain that to ordinary consumers?!

SPs who originally wanted to provide a 'local' number are now charging more than those who opted to disadvantage local callers by using 0870 'national' numbers!

4. 0844: Increased price transparency
However, Ofcom is proposing that providers should be required to publish more comprehensive and accurate pricing information.

I presume this would at least cover OCPs. But shouldn't this be the case anyway? Why do we need the current regime to require telephone providers to be clearer on call costs? And how does Ofcom think this will help? Does it think that people will keep pricing booklets by their phones?

If it's a case of SPs must provide (clearer) pricing information, then what about those 09 premium rate services that don't have to provide such information?

8. Use of NTS numbers by public bodies
Ofcom has already stated that, in its view, it is inappropriate for public bodies to use NTS numbers exclusively (i.e. without giving equal prominence to a geographic alternative) when dealing with people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups.

But if they were to abolish revenue sharing on 084/087 numbers there wouldn't be any need for this measure!

idb,

Yes in summary the only worthwhile thing proposed is forcing 0871 to move to 09.

But when 0870 at 7.51p per minute is to be allowed to continue and still masquerade under a number code that will be perceived as national rate then what's the point.

I also suspect their 0870 call price announcement proposals are not capable of being implemented at an operational level.  But then Ofcom always has been famous for having its head stuck firmly in cloud cuckoo land.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 12:14pm:

This statement statement doesn't make it clear whether they mean originating communication providers (OCPs) or terminating communication providers (TCPs). If they mean OCPs, then it's only like what we have now with freephone numbers from most mobiles (although do they have to give a recorded message?) providing that the TCP only receives the same payment they would receive if the call was charged at the geographical rate. OTOH, if they mean TCP, then that would leave 0870 as a minefield. !

Dave,

You lost me somewhere.

I am reasonably au fait with the whole NTS scamming issue but even I neither know nor care about these subtle distinctions and the general public certainly won't.

I do however agree with your statement that 0870 will be left as a minefield.

It is also utterly absurd that 0845 always sold to the companies that took it as doing the caller a favour is now to become (along with 0844) the most expensive form of disguised premium rate (since 0870 premium rates will no longer be disgused where they exist).

This has all been approached from the point of view of minimum inconvenience to the telecoms industry rather than maximum simplicity for the consumer.  I hope the ex NTL CEO of Ofcom gets the sack over this one.

And then on top of all that, Working Lunch today report the Ofcom announcement in glowing terms as if it means that 0870 revenue sharing will cease, and of course under the clear censuring of the BBC Gillian Lacy is forced to still claim that the maximum revenue share to terminal subscribers at present with 0870 is 2.5 p. Is that woman unable to use the internet where an increasing number of providers of 0870s offer up to 4 p and clearly higher with the largest volumes, probably up to 4.5 p.

The whole problem with these scams is that they breed a whole web of much greater deceit! The amounts of money being made are such that entities will resort to almost anything to preserve the status quo; and with such a weak and corrupt "regulator" the complete mix is a maelstrom.

Then of course the main (tactical?) ommission in the Ofcom statement seems to be concerning the continued sharing of revenue with intermediaries. This just opens the floodgates even if there were eventually any prohibition of revenue sharing with the terminating subscriber, since the same would then occur as has been perpetrated with 070 PNS numbers, namely that they would just use dummy terminating subscribers and continue the scam as intermediaries! Immediately back in the scamming business again with queuing!

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 12:52pm:

The amounts of money being made are such that entities will resort to almost anything to preserve the status quo; and with such a weak and corrupt "regulator" the complete mix is a maelstrom

We should all now be writing to our MPs to get them to ask parliamentary questions as to what tests and checks government ministers have put in place to ensure that Ofcom is working on behalf of citizens and consumers as stated in its formal remit.

I find it extraordinary that in view of Nolan committee rules that are supposed to apply to most of government that the Chief Operating Officer of NTL is allowed to walk straight out of that job and into a job as CEO of Ofcom!

Notice that the actual consultation is as usual made so deliberately incomprehensible that there will be almost no responses other than from us few diehards.

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 12:24pm:

I am reasonably au fait with the whole NTS scamming issue but even I neither know nor care about these subtle distinctions and the general public certainly won't.

OK, I can see that what I said may well be perplexing. I'll start again!

NGM, in your OP, you said:

Quote:

Ofcom headline in their release that 0870 revenue share is to be ended and then in the small print go on to say that it can continue with call price announcements.

If you're referring to what's on the news release page, I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.

The way I read it is that telephone providers (eg TalkTalk, O2, Onetel, T-Mobile etc) can (and still will be able to) charge what they like for these numbers, as is the case for freephone numbers from mobiles.

The question is, where do these extra charges go? I assume that where a mobile network charges for a freephone number they pocket the charge from the caller and (indirectly) the £££s from the receiving party.

With 0870 (from landlines especially), it's a case of my provider cannot charge me less than what they are being charged. Whilst I deplore having to pay my mobile provider to call a freephone number, I know that it's not the company I'm calling that's trying to fleece me. OK, so most people might not make this connection, but there is a distict difference.

Surely this means that Ofcom could (in theory) ban revenue sharing whilst still allowing landline/mobile telephone providers to charge 0870 at higher rates than geographical numbers if they so wanted to?

Of course, I would like to see 0845/0870 numbers charged at geographical rates on all packages, but Ofcom only seem bothered with pricing calls as costing such and such from a BT line. As they say, "Other providers may vary." This phrase seems go against what's being said about improving consumer awareness of pricing. How many consumers realise that "Other providers" means "non-BT"? How many consumers realise that "may vary" means something like "may charge more than this [BT] rate"?

Dave,

I think you and I will have to read the 250 pages and the 50 pages before we can reach any definitive conclusions in that regard.

But why should Ofcom be allowed to produce 300 pages worth of consultation document when surely 20 pages would have been adequate.

A case of yellow highlighters at the ready I think. :D

wrote on Sep 28^th, 2005 at 2:09pm:

But why should Ofcom be allowed to produce 300 pages worth of consultation document when surely 20 pages would have been adequate. A case of yellow highlighters at the ready I think. :D

Actually I had in mind a blue pencil and a single page of A4.
Stop the revenue share on non-09X and expand 09X PRS as necessary.
And remember that this is a consultation - so well-reasoned responses will make a difference ( ;D  ?  I hope not)

Source: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money-savers/article.html?in_article_id=404015&in_page_id=5

<<
"0870's days are numbered"

A MONEY-making telephone number used by Government departments, the BBC and leading companies is to be banned.

Callers to 0870 numbers are charged just under 8p a minute, more than double the standard 3p charged by BT.

Companies which use them take a slice of the profits and some deliberately keep customers on hold to increase their income, watchdog Ofcom reported yesterday.

Consumers spent £1.25bn in 2003 calling 0845 and 0870 numbers used by call centres - almost a fifth of all fixed-line revenues.

This is Money and the Financial Mail have long campaigned for a crackdown on the costly charges, after exposing the abuse of the premium rate phone number by a doctor's surgery.

Thousands of household names use 0870 numbers, including Alliance & Leicester, Barclaycard, Dell computers, GUS and even the DVLA and Citizens Advice.

It appears that the Home Office has 19 of the 0870 lines while the DVLA makes a profit of £1.1m a year from callers to its numbers. The Foreign Office telephone line for callers looking for information on international danger zones is an 0870 number.

Yesterday Ofcom announced that it plans to ban companies and the Government from taking a share of the call cost. This should bring down the price paid by the public for 0870 calls to 3p a minute.

Ofcom also ruled that in future users of 0871 numbers must spell out the 10p charge to all callers through advertisements and with a recorded message.
>>

Not sure I agree with the "0870's days are numbered" assertion. From an initial and quick read of the Ofcon document, I suspect a future huge shift from 0870 to 0844, and in some instances, to 0871 and so the problem will recreate on a different number range.

NEG was, as some of us suspected, very clever (and devious) in pre-empting this by moving the GP scam numbers to the 844 range earlier this year. Prepare for others to follow.

I can't see that 0870's days are numbered.  It is to continue as long as a call price announcmenet is inserted.

Trust our dumb national media to just settle for the propaganda they are fed.

More media coverage....

Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/29/nts_ofcom/

<<
Ofcom acts to protect consumers

Ofcom wants to cut the cost of calls to some non-geographic numbers because of concerns that consumers are being ripped off.

The numbers (0870 and 0845) which are used by call centres, travel enquiries and banks, for example, can cost up to 10p a minute to call - three times the cost of a BT national rate call.

The communications regulator reckons this isn't fair and wants changes introduced that would see the cost of these NTS (Number Translation Services) numbers fall in line with the cost of a national rate call.

And if firms want to continue to charge these higher rates then Ofcom wants them to inform callers beforehand of the higher charges before they hang on the line waiting for their call to be answered.

In a statement Ofcom said that it wanted to address "consumer concerns about the cost of calling voice services offered on 0845 and 0870 numbers".

"These services are often advertised as local or national rate calls respectively, but these descriptions have become a source of confusion as competitive services and tariffs have supplanted a single set of BT prices."

While Ofcom accepts that NTS has been "extremely successful" in delivering new telephone-based services such as online banking, it wants to see greater consumer protection.

Research shows that phone users are confused about the charges with many unaware that the operators are able to generate revenue from the call.

For those aware of this, there is a belief that some call centres, for example, keep people waiting on the phone for longer in a bid to generate extra cash.

"Businesses like call centres, that use 0845 and 0870 numbers, may be able to obtain some revenues for receiving inbound calls from the telephone companies providing their service," said Ofcom.

"Consumers have become concerned that this revenue may provide an incentive for some companies to prolong calls."
>>

I have highlighted the above statement. When I lived in the United Kingdom, I recall having on-line banking access (NatWest) on a standard London number (071 at the time), without all this 08 garbage that Ofcom claims to have "delivered new services". More lies from the lying liars. From memory, NatWest had several numbers around the country including London, Manchester, Glasgow and possibly Bristol and others for on-line banking.

How does a phone number deliver online banking? ???

Surely Online Banking is delivered online?!!!

Also Nationwide have a geographic alternative number on this site for their 0845 online helpdesk which seems to function just as well as the 0845 phone number.

Have I missed something obvious that Ofcom can see but that I can't ::) ;)

IMPORTANT: IT BEGGARS BELIEF:

I have got a letter from OFCOM dated 8th August 2006 sayin they have come up with an idea to deal with this 0845  & 0870 which in my view is mess and scam that should be done away with.

"OFCOM's future approach to making 08 numbers ..... give consumers a clear message about the likely cost of these calls. Ofcom will move to 3 clear categories of 08 numbers.

1.   08 Freephone (0800 and 0808) - bet none of you knew this!!!
2.   084  (5p min from BT line) --- Bet none of you knew this either!!!
3.   087 10p /min from BT line ---- Bet none of you knew this!!!

It beggers belief that it has taken OFCOM 3 years of being challenged and all the so called consultation to come up with this. What we all have know fore the last 6 years.

it is my view and hope ALL WILL WRITE TO Ofcom that the 0845/0870 is a mess and scam, and the best recommendation is to scrap them.  

Not one Company could tell me why they had these numbers - except to make money out of consumers, who often had no land line number they could call. It was interesting noting  All those Advertising 0870/0845 advertise how much money you can make for the company from the consumer having to telephone them.

If  - surely OFCOM "if" OFCOM it was a caring regulator would ask this put on letter heads and pre announment and Health warning that       " this call will make a profit for the company at your expense". Why was this never in the Consultation?  :-? Instead OFCOM tried to call them "non geographical" and "lo-call"  trying to fool the consumers that it was not a Premium number - Further OFCOM itself had an 0845 number - (it seems OFCOM had its hand in the cookie jar little wonder it could not deal with issues)

Bobby

Hi Bobbyboy,

I thought your post was better of in this thread than the 0871 consultation which is being done by ICSTIS and not Ofcom.