I see that BT have altered their charging structure - the price per minute after the first hour is now 3p for Option 1 customers, but more importantly, the charges for 0845/0870 are now on their own page very well hidden away here

Freddie wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 7:57pm:

I see that BT have altered their charging structure - the price per minute after the first hour is now 3p for Option 1 customers....

Very sneaky. Where did you find that out?

Who uses these 0870 09 and 0870 18 numbers that are cheaper in the daytime (5p per minute) but more expensive at the weekend (2p per minute).

I thought the whole point of 0870 and 0845 was for there to be only one set of prices per telecoms provider?

The poster seems to have misread the BT leaflet as the 3p per minute after the first hour on BT Options 1, 2 & 3 is for weekday daytime calls and its still 1p per minute after the first hour off peak.

See Page 5 of this September 2005 BT residential call prices leaflet:-

http://www.downloads.bt.com/pricing/UKInternationalprices.pdf

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2005 at 8:05pm:

The poster seems to have misread the BT leaflet as the 3p per minute after the first hour on BT Options 1, 2 & 3 is for weekday daytime calls and its still 1p per minute after the first hour off peak.

NGM, the BT Price List shows that the OP is correct. See Table 1a on this page.

To answer Dave's question, here
however,
here, they still say 1p after the first hour!

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2005 at 8:10pm:

NGM, the BT Price List shows that the OP is correct. See Table 1a on this page.

I feel sure that is an error in the document you quote as the document link I gave is also the current September 2005 document at www.bt.com/pricing

BT could not get a price change like this through without putting it in their Update leaflet some time in advance of it happening and I have just received one of their Update leaflets in hard copy form and online and it contains no mention of such a price change.

But if you like why not email the head of BT's Pricing Information service - john.strutt@bt.com - to confirm the situation.

OK I'm sending John Strutt an email to query this.

Intriguing isn't it? 'your' leaflet also has no mention of the different levels of 0870 charges

The OP does seem to be correct.  See this page and scroll down to the small print at bottom of the page.

It reads:-

Quote:

Currently, Evening and Weekend UK calls for BT Together Options 1, 2 and 3 are charged at the rate of 1p for every minute beyond the first hour, as are Evening and Weekend local calls for BT Together Local customers. However, from 1st October 2005, the price per minute beyond the first hour will increase to 3p per minute for these calls.

I know I never received notification of any price increases (that I remember) but I thought it may have been to those that actually still use BT for calls (we don't) but on another forum, a member posted that they also hadn't received notice of this increase and they are on Option 2 (the 3month offer).

If you pay BT line rental on BT Options 1, 2 or 3 you are a customer who they must notify price changes to even if you mainly route your calls via CPS or indirect access codes with another provider or mainly use Voip.

I have sent the following email to Mr John Strutt at BT who is responsible for such matters:-

-----Original Message-----
From: NGM
Sent: 10 October 2005 22:10
To: john.strutt@bt.com
Cc: ben.verwaayen@bt.com; hanif.lalani@bt.com; ian.livingston@bt.com; david.stewart@ofcom.org.uk; steve.unger@ofcom.org.uk; gareth.daves@ofcom.org.uk; claudio.pollack@ofcom.org.uk; polly.weitzman@ofcom.org.uk; sean.williams@ofcom.org.uk; tim.suter@ofcom.org.uk; kip.meek@ofcom.org.uk
Subject: Why does BT Together Website & BT Official Price List Now Show 3p per minute charge on Options 1, 2 and 3 after the first hour?

Dear Mr Strutt,

As BT's General Manager of Retail Pricing Policy & Design I write to draw your attention to what looks like an alarming error in the BT Together section of BT's pricing website and the BT official price list that now shows offpeak and weekend calls on BT Options 1, 2 and 3 costing 3p per minute after the first hour, even though this contradicts the current official BT residential customer pricing booklet dated September 2005 for your residential phone line customers that states they cost 1p per minute after the first hour.

I am sure the 3p per minute after the first hour price must be wrong as I know you would surely have to give considerable advance notice of such a price change in your Update booklet for residential customers and elsewhere.

The discrepancies occur as follows:-

This page says that calls now cost 3p per minute on BT Options 1, 2 and 3 after the first hour

but

this page on P5 says calls cost 1p per minute after the first hour which also coincides with pricing that BT has notified previously in its Update leaflets and elsewhere

However this page suggests again that calls cost 3p per minute after the first hour offpeak on BT Options 1, 2 and 3

This is also currently being discussed in the following web forum:- http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1128887840;start=0

Can you please account for these very alarming inconsistencies in the pricing information displayed on your website which hardly do much for BT's already tarnished reputation for not displaying all its call prices (especially for say 09 premium rate numbers and international mobile call prices) in a consistent and comprehensible form.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Well it would indeed appear to be True.  It IS 3p/min Off Peak after the 1st hour.

Couldn't understand why my recent BT bill showed 18 pence for going over 1 hour on a weekend call by just 5 minutes.

Well after stumbling across this web site  it makes sense:-
6p + 5Mins @  3 p = 21p (=18p ex. VAT),  and it was on 1st. October (a Saturday).

As I regularly lapse into the above 1 hour duration,  even more extreme vigilance is now called for.

I see an opportunity for phones that cut off automatically after an hour 'though. Perhaps BT would help me flog them.

What a pigs ear telephone pricing has become, and each new twist, exploiting the unwary, just compounds it.

The little - have hidden it in the small print at the bottom of this page.

http://www.bt.com/update/

Notice how they put it in headlines when the cut such a price and then try to tuck it away where no one will notice it when they increase it only a few months later.  BT really do seem to think anyone who goes on using their service is a lazy idiot who they can mug.  Clearly they think anyone who hasn't switched to TalkTalk or Onetel or Tele2 by now isn't going to so they might as well fleece them good and proper.

It won't affect me as my calls with www.1899.com cost 3p for up to 2 hours at any time.

P.S. Notice the below further additional ripoff tucked away in Update designed to further ramp up BT's already bloated profits without most customers working out what is going on.  This all comes under the heading of what Ofcom calls "Light Touch" but I call a "Soft Touch" ::)

"From the 1st October 2005, the calculation for determining the call charges for selected call types will be changed from rounding up to one tenth of a penny, to rounding up to half a penny"

They don't even say what these "selected call types are" :o

The thing is I still don't remember my printed Update booklet containing this stuff but stupidly I have already thrown it away.

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2005 at 9:50pm:

...The thing is I still don't remember my printed Update booklet containing this stuff...

We still have the October BTupdate and it is listed in it on page 10 under "Further Price Changes."  The question remains was it in the BTupdate prior to this because the increase took place at the beginning of October so BT should have informed us in the last BTupdate booklet.  We, unfortunately, will have thrown that out.

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2005 at 9:50pm:

The thing is I still don't remember my printed Update booklet containing this stuff but stupidly I have already thrown it away.

Just looked at Update for October. Its on page 10, Further Price Changes. This covers the rounding issue and increase in rate for calls over 1 hour.

It does seem to be inconsistent with the terms and conditions printed on the other side of this notice (pages 11 &12) which still talks about 1p (I have only scanned the T&C however)

Two questions to ponder:

a) Why is there this 60 min limit anyway? Is there a good reason or is it a scam to get revenue off people who think they have already paid for free calls and are then getting charged. You would have to be quite sad to time a telephone call, hang up after 59 min and then call again to avoid this happening!

b) FYI I have Option 3 and got caught by a call to Jersey which previously was just like calling any UK number. I got charged for it. It was very confusing initially as it shows as a National charge on the bill. A charge which should be impossible under Option 3. I queried it and the person I called at BT was just as mystified. I then got a call back saying it was a call to Jersey which are not covered. I looked in the T&C and they were right. Sneeky I thought!

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 9:15am:

We still have the October BTupdate and it is listed in it on page 10 under "Further Price Changes."  The question remains was it in the BTupdate prior to this because the increase took place at the beginning of October so BT should have informed us in the last BTupdate booklet.  We, unfortunately, will have thrown that out.

Sadly I still do have it. It is not included on the 'Keeping you informed' page.

However interestingly there is another increase on this page:

"Current the cost of calls total is rounded down to the nearest penny, but as ofr 22/7/05 this will be rounded up to the nearest whole penny"

Peanuts I know, but indicative.

I've never read these 'Keeping you informed' pages before which are put next to the T&C. Think I will in future.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 9:35am:

Peanuts I know, but indicative.

Peanuts to you but worth hundreds of millions to BT.

But the powers that be at Ofcom just allow all this customer abuse by a massive monopoly with Significant Market Power because they are too busy snoozing or whizzing off on their next jolly European jaunt.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 9:28am:

Why is there this 60 min limit anyway? Is there a good reason or is it a scam to get revenue off people who think they have already paid for free calls and are then getting charged. You would have to be quite sad to time a telephone call, hang up after 59 min and then call again to avoid this happening

Its the same reason as 0845 and 0870 that BT have grown so used to isn't it.  Namely blatant and cynical scamming by an increasingly dishonest tribe of British marketing folk.

Market headline advertising that its only 5.5p per hour and then let the 17 year old chat to her boyfriend for 2 hours not knowing the second hour is clocking up £1.80 of call charges on the family phone.

Ofcom should come down up on BT like a "ton of bricks" over this because they are "out of touch" also known as "light touch".

Do ya think BT , in their wisdom, might just be beginning to quietly 'realign' charges for these 'anomalous' geographic numbers, perhaps even realising this 0870 /0845 Bonanza cann't last forever ?   When these initial fixed price periods start  falling out of fashion the way will already have been paved for much higher geographic charges.
Or am I just paranoid ?

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 9:55am:

Do ya think BT , in their wisdom, might just be beginning to quietly 'realign' charges for these 'anomalous' geographic numbers, perhaps even realising this 0870 /0845 Bonanza cann't last forever ?   When these initial fixed price periods start  falling out of fashion the way will already have been paved for much higher geographic charges. Or am I just paranoid ?

I suspect you are right.

The more BT customers sign up with Tele2, Onetel etc on CPS or start using Voip with Skype or even Dixons then the more BT need to scam the remaining sheep who still make their calls with them.  But the regulator should not let them hide a major price increase affecting all customers in this way.

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2005 at 9:50pm:

"From the 1st October 2005, the calculation for determining the call charges for selected call types will be changed from rounding up to one tenth of a penny, to rounding up to half a penny"

Do you suppose they'll round the Friends and Family discounts on each call up to the nearest half a penny too?

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 1:47pm:

Do you suppose they'll round the Friends and Family discounts on each call up to the nearest half a penny too?

And that's probably the reason for the 'selected call types' phrase.

These price changes mean that 0845 calls are actually cheaper than geographical calls again... for calls lasting more than 87 minutes, anyway!!

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 1:47pm:

Do you suppose they'll round the Friends and Family discounts on each call up to the nearest half a penny too?

I'm was finding Friends & Family discounts are now almost wortheless, unless you keep them mainly Mobile and/or 08... rate numbers , the ones we try to avoid calling at all.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 3:03pm:

I'm was finding Friends & Family discounts are now almost wortheless, unless you keep them mainly Mobile and/or 08... rate numbers , the ones we try to avoid calling at all.

But surely you don't use BT for any of your calls do you? :o

Except perhaps of course 0845 or 09.

All other calls are cheaper with other providers including 0870 (see www.dialaround.co.uk and other Finarea brands that carry 0870 calls for 5p per minute).

Sadly I'm still one of these lazy sheep who just cann't be bothered spending my life hunting endlessly for cheaper calls, meanwhile continuing to kid myself that BT still provides a better service than the minefield of alternatives out there.   But such delusion is becoming harder & harder to maintain & I do use the alternatives for all International calls at least.   Thanks for the pointer on 0870 alternatives .  I'll check it out.
  I tend to use this web site to avoid 0870s, use 0845 for very occasional PAYG internet access, and use all sorts of 08 Dial through numbers for international calls.
Oddly I do still appreciate the convenience of getting it all on the same bill as well as being able to know what each 08 number actually costs without too much difficulty on BT..

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 3:27pm:

Oddly I do still appreciate the convenience of getting it all on the same bill as well as being able to know what each 08 number actually costs without too much difficulty on BT..

Well you must be one of the few to have mastered the convoluted BT website then.

I just sent the below message to the WatchDog and You & Yours program teams to try and unmask BT's hidden price rise scam on Oct 1st.

My calculation is that the hidden rounding up by 0.5p instead of 0.1p on each call could be worth £20 million to £30 million a year.  So if you were BT why not take the money when a dosy regulator like Ofcom allows you to and an often equally lazy consumer press does not spot the fact.  I will also send this to a few newspaper consumer journalists:-

-------------------------------------------------------------------

To:- BBC Watchdog and to BBC You & Yours Programs

BT have tried to sneak through two significant price rises from 1st October 2005 which they have tried to hide away in the small print of one of their Update magazines with BT phone bills - www.bt.com/update

1. Firstly they are changing the way they charge offpeak calls in the evening and weekend on BT Options 1, 2 and 3 (the packages which 99% of BT customers are on) to normal geographic phone numbers (the ones starting 01 or 02) so that although they will only continue to charge 5.5p per minute for the first hour of each call they will start charging 3p per minute instead of the current 1p per minute for the second and subsequent hours.

So accidentally gas away to a friend for 2 hours in the evening and the weekend with BT and the call will cost not the 5.5p you might be expecting but a cool £1.86!  BT General Manager of Pricing Policy & Design, John Strutt, has said to me on the phone that only a small percentage of calls go into this second hour.  But if this is the case then why try to impose a sneaky 200% increase in the call cost?

2. BT's Second sneaky price increase in their Update bulletin for customers is contained in the hard to understand phrase "from the 1st October 2005 the calculation for determining the call charges for selected call types will be changed from rounding up to one tenth of a penny, to rounding up to half a penny"

What this actually means is that a call that previuously cost 7.1p on your bill will now cost 7.6p and a call that cost 8.6p will now cost 9p.  This means that in pratctice on average for every phone call you make BT is likely to end up with another 0.2p per call.  It doesn't sound like much but if you make 10 calls a day then in a 90 day bill quarter it would cost you another £1.80.  So to BT the change could be worth perhaps £25 million a year or more.  Strangely Ofcom the regulator that is supposed to be ensuring greater price competitiveness by BT seems to have let this go through without a second thought.

My complaint is that as BT only bill once a quarter it is doubtful that the Update magazine they sent out for the whole quarter before 1st Oct 2005 actually contained these price rises.  Certainly I don't remember them being in the printed update that came with my bill that I did read.  Although the price changes are shown in the Update that is now on the BT website this could have been amended by BT at any time.

So it looks like BT may have sneaked through a price change that not all customers know about and to which they have given very little publicity to indeed.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 3:27pm:

Sadly I'm still one of these lazy sheep who just cann't be bothered spending my life hunting endlessly for cheaper calls, meanwhile continuing to kid myself that BT still provides a better service than the minefield of alternatives out there. .

Well it takes about 5 minutes to sign up at www.1899.com to only pay 3p for every call you make to an 01 or 02 number (no matter how long) 7 days a week.  All you have to do is dial 1899 before each number when you dial.

It's somewhat off topic - but then maybe not! After all, as I think we all realise, BT will do almost anything to maintain their revenue stream from voice calls in the face of increasing competition from low cost providers. Their blatant misrepresentation and subsequent scam of the UK numbering scheme must be up there as one of the most hypocritical actions of a major corporation in recent years. Of course, the crooked and cynical actions of their partners-in-crime, Ofcom, have not helped.

It appears that it is not only BT that fears for its future. The spectre of VoIP looms ever larger, and US telcos are equally concerned. They don't have the luxury of a compliant and lazy public, a crooked regulator and a misrepresented numbering scheme - so they are trying other tacks instead. See this site, which explains how Sprint-Nextel have suddenly found that "they" invented VoIP after all - so '....lets sue the VoIP providers.'  ;)

http://www.networkingpipeline.com/blog/archives/2005/10/is_voip_killing.html

I wonder if BT will try that one as well? But then, they don't need to, do they? When probably 50% of all calls are made to "revenue sharing numbers" - and you take the lion's share, regardless of how or from whom the call originated, why bother with dodgy lawsuits....!

BTW, part of me does wonder what is really behind BT's conversion to an all IP network? I cannot, I'm afraid, see it as a light on the road to Damascus! Call me cynical, but there is something far more sinister behind this.......

I just don't trust the b**tards!  >:(

Mike,

I just noticed you only have 59 posts in the forum but it seems like you have made more like 500.

Each of your 59 posts here seems to have made one hell of an impact.

Its nice to see others here feel the way I do about Ofcom as their Communications Director has lately accused me of a campaign of mercilessly hounding his collection of fine boys and girls on an unfair and personalised basis.  Do you think this is the regulatory equivalent of a telecoms company going to the courts?  i.e. if you don't do a proper job as a regulator and people complain about it you then say they are being unfair to your organisation, rather than just getting on and trying to do the job properly?

wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 7:57pm:

the price per minute after the first hour is now 3p for Option 1 customers, here

As Option 1 is now the most basic option you can get from BT, doesn't this make the notion of a BT Standard National rate based on calls to normal geographic numbers, now somewhat  imaginary ?

Is the real 'BT Standard' rate for National calls now :-
-  3p/minute (off peak)
- 5.5p for an hour (of peak).
or is it defined in terms of the 0870 rate itself
7.51 / 3.75 / 1.5.
 The last thereby rehabilitating 0870 's credibility as a National Rate number ?

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 12:10pm:

Is the real 'BT Standard' rate for National calls now :- -  3p/minute (off peak) - 5.5p for an hour (of peak). or is it defined in terms of the 0870 rate itself 7.51 / 3.75 / 1.5.

The real BT National Rate is the Option 1 rate in terms of customer numbers but of course part of their game is to leave people as confused as possible so no one will understand what is actually going on.

But they reckon without us Eh NGM? We do understand what they are up to.

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 1:22pm:

But they reckon without us Eh NGM? We do understand what they are up to.

But I don't suppose they will worry much about us knowing what they are up to unless it gets in the national newspapers.

I have just been seeing to that very matter in respect of BT's attempt to sneak through their change in offpeak call charges from 1p to 3p per minute (after the first hour) and their half scam of rounding to the nearest 0.5p instead of 0.1p on every call.  The latter is probably worth say 10 calls a day = 2p x 90 days = £1.80 x 4 quarters = £7.20 x 20 million lines = £140 million minus those calls under Option 2 and 3 inclusive calls and Option 1 off peak calls that do not exceed 1 hour.  Say still £100 million?

I'm trying to get the national press to cover that angle.

The Other operators have always liked a nice high "Standard BT" rate to show the average joe  the enormous amounts to be saved by switching to them.
But now  that benchmark no longer has any basis in reality ...

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 1:30pm:

The Other operators have always liked a nice high "Standard BT" rate to show the average joe  the enormous amounts to be saved by switching to them. But now  that benchmark no longer has any basis in reality ...

And that appears to be one reason why BT removed the Standard tariff.

More information on the BT Standard and its removal on this thread on The Scream forums.  ;)

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 2:43pm:

And that appears to be one reason why BT removed the Standard tariff. More information on the BT Standard and its removal on this thread on The Scream forums.  ;)

And it is exactly why BT seems to be trying to recoup perhaps £120 million a year through its change from rounding call costs to the nearest 0.1 of a p to 0.5 of a p.  And who knows what charging £1.80 an hour in the evenings and weekends after the first hour is worth.  Obviously quite a lot.

If one customer makes just one £1.80 second hour of call per month that is £1.20 more than he was paying before before times at 60p so times 12 months = £14.40.  So times 15 million - £200 million :o

Hang on this is worth more than the rounding to 0.5p scam :o

And what has Ofcom been doing during all this.  Why just having a little snooze as usual at a cafe on some nice little jaunt to study European regulation.

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 3:51pm:

And it is exactly why BT seems to be trying to recoup perhaps £120 million a year through its change from rounding call costs to the nearest 0.1 of a p to 0.5 of a p. ...

And all these 'little' changes add up.

This concerns me that an illusion (partly due to the public's complacent attitude) is being created. The idea that the competition that was introduced was to reduce prices is absolute rubbish.

BT's competitors compare themselves to BT. So as BT is actually increasing rates by making small changes here and there, other providers are busy 'shaping' their packages to look like they're better than BT.

The Post Office's Homephone service is a typical example. They market it as being cheaper than BT, therefore it must be! So what about the increased costs for calling and 0870s?

The BBC News website is carrying a story about Samsung and price fixing.

"Samsung in price fixing admission" BBC News 13 October 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4340388.stm

"Price fixing threatens our free-market system, stifles innovation
and robs American consumers of the benefit of competitive prices,"
US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said in a statement.

Hmmm....

Doesn't that sound exactly like the 0870 scam?

Wonder if we'd ever see such a statement from a corrupt regulator about their paymasters at BT?

Or don't British consumers count? ???

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 1:48am:

Hmmm.... Doesn't that sound exactly like the 0870 scam? Wonder if we'd ever see such a statement from a corrupt regulator about their paymasters at BT? Or don't British consumers count? ???

Just exactly what I was thinking across the pond here 5 hours ahead of you when I should be in bed.

And yes 084/7 and 07PNS is exactly the sort of disgraceful anti competitive price fixing that either Ofcom or the Office of Fair Trading or the Competition Commission should long since all have mercilessly stamped out.

But no it hasn't happened thus far because the corrupt hand of New Labour is firmly guiding all these bodies not to take rapid action on this issue on which both its own government departments and several Labour big business cronies all have their snouts firmly in the trough.

What can you expect from a government that is setting up a Police state that allows people to be detained in custody for up to 90 days without charge for making politically incorrect web posts or daring to heckle a speaker at the Labour Party Conference.  Think it won't happen?  Just you wait and see. :o

And has passed legislation giving the police power to seize any car on the road at their entire descretion, without any court hearing, and send it straight to be crushed.

And so on and so on............... As you say NGM head-long into a Police State, and the general public seem to be asleep.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 8:22am:

And has passed legislation giving the police power to seize any car on the road at their entire descretion, without any court hearing, and send it straight to be crushed.

Ah yes Dorf the New Labour anti motorist agenda is also truly frightening.  And that's before we start on the rising death toll on the roads after years of fall because the judgement of policemen has now been replaced by an army of yellow one armed robots interested only in issuing as many fines as possible.

Unfortunately many of those on the Conservative side of things were initially bamboozled by the New Labour spin about just wanting the traffic to flow better and only belatedly have they woken up to it being an old fashioned Communist style desire to make everyone use public transport to stamp out the spark of indiviudal freedom, choice and personaly liberty which the hidden but still forceful Labour hard left so despise and eschew.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 1:57am:

Just exactly what I was thinking across the pond here 5 hours ahead of you when I should be in bed.

Hey NGM,   surely there are worse scams than this 0870 / 0845 thing in that haven of free enterprise across the pond.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 9:11am:

Hey NGM,   surely there are worse scams than this 0870 / 0845 thing in that haven of free enterprise across the pond.

Not I think ones that are so actively enshrined by government regulation which is I think what idb was getting at.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 7:10pm:

Well you must be one of the few to have mastered the convoluted BT website then.

Oddly , I've never had to, as all the other Operators are so keen to tell me much BT is charging me.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 4:25pm:

Oddly , I've never had to.  as all the other Operators are so keen to tell me much BT is charging me.

Are you aware BT has just started rounding each of your calls UP to the nearest 0.5p instead of the nearest 0.1p and that BT has just raised its call charges off peak on BT Options 1, 2 and 3 so that after the first hour you then pay 3p per minute instead of 1p per minute.

Are you aware that BT adds 20p per minute to their normal international charges for calling an international mobile number?

Of course if you hardly ever make any phone calls then none of this may be a problem for you.  Except that you do seem to be troubled by the cost of your 0845 and 0870 calls or you wouldn't have come here in the first place. ???

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 4:32pm:

Are you aware BT has just started rounding each of your calls UP to the nearest 0.5p instead of the nearest 0.1p and that BT has just raised its call charges off peak on BT Options 1, 2 and 3 so that after the first hour you then pay 3p per minute instead of 1p per minute. Are you aware that BT adds 20p per minute to their normal international charges for calling an international mobile number? Of course if you hardly ever make any phone calls then none of this may be a problem for you.  Except that you do seem to be troubled by the cost of your 0845 and 0870 calls or you wouldn't have come here in the first place. ???

Thanks NGM,  I must admit the subtleties mentioned in your 1st para. I only understood from coming here. BT's  international charges - I gave up on long ago.   Hence my love affair with the revenue sharing Dial-Throughs for International.    But it 's still difficult to find a good rate to Mobiles abroad (apart from developing countries - where they haven't distinguished from fixed lines yet).

While my first line of defence against call charges is indeed  to avoid making calls,  it is the justice of your crusade against this pervasive deceit that draws me to your cause.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 5:27pm:

Thanks NGM,  I must admit the subtleties mentioned in your 1st para. I only understood from coming here. BT's  international charges - I gave up on long ago.   Hence my love affair with the revenue sharing Dial-Throughs for International.

These chaps let you call 0870 for 5p per minute using a dial through number:-

http://www.dialaround.co.uk/rates.php

united kingdom [national rate] (land/wireless)  0844 566 76 76 5


wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 5:27pm:

But it 's still difficult to find a good rate to Mobiles abroad (apart from developing countries - where they haven't distinguished from fixed lines yet).

You can find some very good rates to international mobile numbers in countries which have split their fixed line and mobile number charging structures here:-

http://www.niftylist.co.uk

Spanish mobile numbers have just fallen to 7p per minute with Dialaround.  Some other European mobile cost only 1 or 2p per minute on various dial through services listed.


wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 5:27pm:

it is the justice of your crusade against this pervasive deceit that draws me to your cause.

That is of course the strongest motivation which keeps all of us fighting so strongly on this cause's behalf against the most cynical and deceitful forces of big business

Thanks Again NGM,   There's just so much good information on here  taking it in is an on-going process,  so I appreciate these pointers & I'll check them out just as soon as I can.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 5:27pm:

... Hence my love affair with the revenue sharing Dial-Throughs for International. ...

I can't remember if it's been mentioned yet, but it's worth bearing in mind the minimum charge as well as the fact that these dial-through providers meter from the second that they answer and ask you to input the destination number. The minimum charge with BT is 5p, so all these calls cost you 5p. So for every 20 calls which don't actaully connect to your final destination, it costs you £1!

That said, if the final destination is an answering service, then you would incurr a 5p minimum charge if you dialled with BT directly anyway, even if you don't want to leave a message.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 6:15pm:

I can't remember if it's been mentioned yet, but it's worth bearing in mind the minimum charge as well as the fact that these dial-through providers meter from the second that they answer and ask you to input the destination number. The minimum charge with BT is 5p, so all these calls cost you 5p. So for every 20 calls which don't actaully connect to your final destination, it costs you £1!

It was mentioned in this this thread (in the 2nd. Post), though it's just another of the many hazards in this minefield of deregulated & alternative telecoms.   (If you mentioned everything everywhere it would be impossible to find anything).
If you know of a good thread 'though, specifically on Dial-Through to refer to I'll refer to that & tidy up my previous posts on the subject

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 6:39pm:

If you know of a good thread 'though, specifically on Dial-Through to refer to I'll refer to that & tidy up my previous posts on the subject

Don't know of a specifically good dial through thread but if one cannot avoid calling an 0870 number (and sadly there are some of these such as Tivo Customer Services and Freesat from Sky and Alliance & Leicester Business Banking) and cannot call it at the weekend at 1.5p per minute then these chaps below are also useful:-

http://www.18185.co.uk

You have to register with a credit card but they are just one tendrel of the multi Octopus telecoms empire of Finarea SA who also run Dialaround,18866, voipbuster and many others.

The advantage here is that there is no charge for calls that do not answer (you dial a prefix code and calls are billed online for those that answer) and calls to 0870 cost 4p connection + 4p per minute so for 5 minutes that is 24p which is cheaper than Dialaround without wasted time being charged while the number is connecting and without being charged for calls that do not answer.

But its a bit of an extreme length to go to just for 0870 numbers (although of course I have done so in my relentless fight against them) as Finarea's cheapest brand for all other uk calls is http://www.1899.co.uk which relies on the same system of online billing and using a prefix code (1899) and again you dont get charged for calls that are not answered.

I just happened to be looking at the BT website, and I saw an advert that says:

BT Together
Option 1 - the hour plan
Now just £10.50 a month

It seems to imply that the price has been reduced. Is it just me, or have I paid £10.50 a month ever since I was forced to go onto option 1 over a year ago, when the "hour plan" was first introduced?

Naturally the price quoted is still for direct debit only.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 2:41pm:

It seems to imply that the price has been reduced. Is it just me, or have I paid £10.50 a month ever since I was forced to go onto option 1 over a year ago, when the "hour plan" was first introduced?

This has been the price for Option 1 on DD since OfcoN allowed it to become a compulsory minimum BT line rental plan (on 1st July 2004) unless you fulfil the very strict and limiting criteria for either the Light User Scheme or In Contact Plus (no broadband allowed on the line for instance).

My water company levies a £10 standing charge for 6 months and the metered water only costs about £30 on top of that for a 2 bed flat for 6 months.  So how do BT justify £31.50 against £5 a quarter standing charge for a significantly less essential service. ::) :o

Yeah, well water should be free, but as soon as the principle of charging is established, it's only a matter of time, till they go up.    (eg. like your Credit reference Agency files).     And I mean, whoever heard of selling water to the English...  and now they're buying it in Bottles, of all things.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 4:08pm:

This has been the price for Option 1 on DD since OfcoN allowed it to become a compulsory minimum BT line rental plan (on 1st July 2004) unless you fulfil the very strict and limiting criteria for either the Light User Scheme or In Contact Plus (no broadband allowed on the line for instance).

Am I the only one who thinks it's misleading to advertise it as "now only..." when it's actually exactly the same price it's always been?

wrote on Oct 18^th, 2005 at 12:31pm:

Am I the only one who thinks it's misleading to advertise it as "now only..." when it's actually exactly the same price it's always been?

Perhaps you should try complaining to OfCoN, the ASA or Local Trading Standards for your area.

However as nearly all marketing people suffer from a well known fault in their morality and ethics chips I expect this will be treated as an allowable scam.

The biggest ourage is it still being allowed to be called BT Option 1 and portrayed as a scheme you have a choice about joining when it is in effect BT Compulsion 1 and only levels 2 or 3 have any optionality about them.  Or at least I have enquired whether I can move to BT Light User or InContact plus schemes whilst still having broadband (which I would use to make all my calls using Voip) and it is clear that BT will not allow me to do this.

wrote on Oct 18^th, 2005 at 12:42pm:

Or at least I have enquired whether I can move to BT Light User or InContact plus schemes whilst still having broadband (which I would use to make all my calls using Voip) and it is clear that BT will now allow me to do this.

Really? Or did you mean not allow you?

I know someone who would be interested in this, as they were on light user before going on the (dial-up) internet, which is now a large proportion of their bill (being 0845). So this would be a big incentive for switching to broadband as the reduced line rental would offset the cost.

In this case, they really are light users, it wouldn't be simply that they could make VoIP calls. But I thought the rules didn't allow people on the scheme to have broadband as it would be an obvious loophole!

wrote on Oct 18^th, 2005 at 2:18pm:

Really? Or did you mean not allow you?!

Well done on spotting my deliberate mistake. ;) ;D

But more seriously there was a post on here by a BT customer services employee suggesting that if you moved to Light User or InContactPlus before you had broadband added to your line you could get away with then getting broadband added as long as you selected a non BT broadband provider.

It seems the likes of Wanadoo, AOL etc do not check your line rental package when you order broadband from them and because they only place an order with BT Wholesale there is no way for BT Retail (who sell you Option 1 etc) to check up on this.

But as I already have broadband I would have to disconnect and pay the broadband connection fee again, after switching to one of the cheap line rental schemes, in order to try this out.

As I could use Voip for my phone calls there would be no problem meeting the terms of the Light User Scheme.

Would I qualify for BT Light User Scheme if making all my calls via eg. 1899  then (ie. No Chargeable BT Calls & not Carrier Pre-Selection)  ?

wrote on Oct 18^th, 2005 at 3:23pm:

Would I qualify for BT Light User Scheme if making all my calls via eg. 1899  then (ie. No Chargeable BT Calls & not Carrier Pre-Selection)  ?

BT will claim you can't but the BT customer service person said that in practice if you become an InContactPlus subscriber you can register and use 1899.

The only way to be sure is to try it.

By the way 18185 do bill you and bill you correctly for 0870 calls.  There doesn't seem to be a call price announcement only because practically all large company 0870 systems answer instantly so not giving the 18185 system long enough to make the price announcement.