How much is the Transfer Payment between operators on an 0870 call ?
Eg. of the 10p/min charged by some mobile operators, how much gets to the terminating operator ?

I need such hard facts  to convince a sceptical 0870 user and advance the cause

If you look on this web site and on the internet generally you will find specific statements of up to 4 p per minute being paid for 0870 numbers. My research has proven that the scam operators with the highest call volumes are receiving up to almost 4.5 p per minute in transfer payments for 0870 numbers as terminating subscribers (i.e. Premiums). With other NGNs such as 0871 and 070 PNS the Premiums are much higher.

Don't forget that the main revenue is made from call queuing with all of these numbers (which is of course prohibited with overt Premium numbers in the NTNP). That is the key to all of this - most of the revenue is generated from holding callers on line whilst the clock ticks away!

You also question about mobile phone users.

The company that terminates the call receives the same revenue regardless of whether it's

A mobile charging 40p per minute, when landlines are free.
O2 including the calls in the inclusive minutes
An 0844 number charging 5p per minute to terminate the call.
BT charing their normal rates.
Other telcos charging charging less than BT
Other telcos charging more than BT.
Skype charging something like 20p per minute.
A call from the USA, which identifies 0870 as premium rate and charges $2 per minute.
A call from the USA, which charges 0870 as a normal landline call.

As you can see, the above examples show how the 0870 rates can vary for the customer, but telecom operators have an agreement to pay something like 5p per minute to the telecom company of the terminating operator.

The telecom company then uses the 5p to provide a rebate to the terminating operator, and to pay for the admin of any enhanced services needed.  Companies always say how much they need these services, such as being able to forward calls to a different number, and knowing how many people called them (although in reality these enhanced services should be billed separately and a geo number provided)

As for the caller, although the telecom company of the caller only pays 5p per minute, they all have different attitudes on how much they want to pass the cost to the customer.

Thankyou dorf,
               I appreciate your point about the queuing, 'tho' it's the other end I'm concerned with at the moment.
Roughly,   How much is it reasonabley justified for an Originating operator to charge for calling 0870  ?

   This might be best considered  relative to their charge to call normal geographic numbers.
  Simplistically one might consider that to be the difference in cost they must transfer on,  anything more being extra profit.

  Are these transfer payments fixed, or depending on how much the originating operator charges ?

  According to the summarised explanation on the OfCom website, all the profit should be transferred to the terminator,   but is / how is that ensured.

Would your indication of 4.5 p/min. suggest that to be a reasonable amount over and above their normal charge ?    

I'm sure it'll be much me more complicated than that, but I need to start getting a grasp on this somewhere.

Yes Shiggaddi  you seem to have addressed most of my questions there.

So might we say then, that anything more than ~5p/min over their normal charges could not unreasonably be described as profiteering.....,   on my choice to (or more likely my lack of choice in being forced to) call an 0870 ?

If so then isn't that the bit the regulator should be stamping on ?   Particularly as it would seem to violate the principle of all the profit being passed to the terminator.

[glb]How much is it reasonabley justified for an Originating operator to charge for calling 0870[/glb]

Reasonably, nothing more than a geo call.  You don't expect a freephone number, but you do expect the call to cost the same as phoning your friends and relatives in this country.

The cost of the 0870 is not set by the terminating operator, but your own telecom company.  The terminating operator only has control over which telecom company to use for 0870, which would give them the best value for money, and service.

Almost all numbers in the 0870 range cost the same for the caller, irrespective of which company the terminating operator uses, and how much rebate they receive.

The terminating operator does however have a choice whether to use either a freephone number, a geo number, an 0845 number, 0871, or a premium rate 090 number, which are charged to the customer at different rates to 0870 numbers, and provide varying revenue or charges for the terminating operator.

Sorry, I think I was a bit loose with terminology.   By operator (above) I was referring to the Telephone companies (originating & terminating).

Surely 'though,  if the originating telephone company (who charges the caller) has to pay more to the terminating phone company to deliver an 0870 call, then it's not unreasonable to recover that difference from the caller  (from the Originating phone companies point of view anyway, & especially if it has no choice but to deliver the call), but any more than that is profiteering.

N'est ce pas ?

Hi Joe65,

As Shiggaddi states - the reality is NOTHING. As I have observed previously what this is really about is the difference between a normal telephone call (one subscriber calling another) and a subscriber making a telephone call to a number providing a true added-value service, which the caller is prepared to pay for by a transfer of Premiums. (Premium means a cost loading on the call over and above a normal call charge.) This was the original conception and definition of a Premium number. And all Premium numbers were supposed to have been moved to 09 under the authority of the New Telephone Numbering Plan and Structure. Queuing was prohibited with all Premium (revenue-generating) numbers. Under this definition 08 numbers are being used as Premium numbers.

That is the purpose of these abuses with NTS, so that 08 numbers could be used as Premium numbers, not providing any added-value service, usually not using the additional benefits which NTS was originally intended to provide, which were really only normal telephone calls but with queuing allowed; deceving most consumers who believed that "National" and "Local" meant that these calls cost the same as they would pay for normal calls with their provider.

All calls to 08 numbers should be normal telephone calls. That is precisely why even Ofcom has suggested that so-called Adult Services now increasingly using 08 numbers should be forced to 09. They are not normal calls, and do provide clearly what some believe to be an added-value service, although many may not agree, me included. Normal telephone calls should cost normal prices. That is the only reasonable position. I must repeat ad nauseum that the main attraction of these 08 abuses as Premium numbers is that queuing is allowed!

[glb]Surely 'though,  if the originating telephone company (who charges the caller) has to pay more to the terminating phone company to deliver an 0870 call, then it's not unreasonable to recover that difference from the caller  (from the Originating phone companies point of view anyway, & especially if it has no choice but to deliver the call), but any more than that is profiteering.[/glb]

Exactly.

It is not the originating phone companies fault, that you wish to call a non standard number, however if more originating operators spoke out, and actually referred to them as "non standard" phone numbers, or even "premium rate" numbers, which is what they are, instead of hiding their costs in the small print, the public might understand a bit more.  We already accept that 090 numbers a premium rate and many people object to calling them.

However many originating operators do have a vested interest in keeping the 0870 scam going.  Some of those companies have 0870 call centres for their own customers to call on their call centre.  Some companies act as an originating operator, but also as terminating operator.  Some mobile companies who include landline calls in inclusive minutes, charge 40p per minute for 0870 calls, which is 8 about times their cost.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, is that 0870 calls cost less during the evenings and weekends, and the originating operator pays something like 2p per minute in the evening and 1p at the weekend!!

This makes 40p per minute for an off peak call even worse than before!!

I've only found T-Mobile charging 40p/min  and this is only on their PayAsYouGo tarrif, which is normally 30p/min all the time (assuming low usage).
So the differential is only 10p/min making their particular 40p/min to 0870s not as bad as it looks & the profiteering (however disgraceful) only consistent with other operators that charge just 10p/minute on a contract with inclusive minutes.

T-Mobil's rate to 0870 is so high as their PAYG tarrif is very expensive anyway.

Anyone know of an operator charging 40p on an inclusive minutes contract ?