I've looked through the site and can't find anything for this but my Daughters in halls of residence number 0870 0407*** It's too expensive to use. Has anyone any ideas for a cheaper number? It's expensive both ways so any help would be very much appreciated

Thankyou

The name of the University in question might help someone point you in the right direction. ;)

Its Derby University, I couldn't find anything in the search about it. It just seems so unfair when the students are paying so much money for the halls anyway and on top of that she had to pay for the phone even if she didn't want it she had no choice. That was included in a £240 booking fee of which only £50 is returnable deposit. I queried what the other £190 was for and they said the internet access which is in every room and the phone

You could try calling via the switchboard (is it 01332 590500  )and ask them for extension Nr. XXXX , whatever it is .

No that doesn't work. There are a few different halls of residence there and they just say we have to call the direct number of the room :(

Well anyone phoning from abroad might find phoning the direct 0870 number didn't work...

and if that doesn't work...
How does the internal extension number,   compare to the last 4 or 5 digits of the 0870 0407xxx  number ?

Can you call other rooms  and / or Halls directly ie. with a short number   OR do you have to use the 0870 number for either or both ?

Thanx I'll have to check these things with her. I know she can call others in the halls but I'm not sure if it's just the building shes in as I said theres quite a few different halls but internally it's prob without the 0870 because I think it's supposed to be free internally, at least I hope so! She can't do with any more unexpected extra costs. Shes just found out she has to pay a £60 parking permit just for the halls aswell which we didn't know about and she still has to pay to catch a bus to uni and back everyday as that doesnt cover the main campus either. It would have been cheaper to commute from home

If this statement from Uni of Derby Accomodation website  (  http://www.dsrl.co.uk/index.php?node=551  )  applies :-

Each of our Halls of Residence has it’s own unique character but most provide you with:

• A telephone in your room from which you can call your friends in Halls for free. We only charge you for calls out of the University at standard BT rates.
  

then, what's the problem ?

Oh I didn't know that was on. If thats the case then well maybe its just me calling her thats expensive. Do you think I could add that telephone number safetly to my 1899 bill so it would only cost her 3p connection charge each time she rang out to landlines on it? or is that not possible as maybe some don't take predial numbers? I'm on NTL seems that she would have a BT line then

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 2:20pm:

Oh I didn't know that was on. If thats the case then well maybe its just me calling her thats expensive. Do you think I could add that telephone number safetly to my 1899 bill...

That's doubtful  :-/

Get her to dial 1899 (with the appropriate prefix to get an outside line). If she can connect to 1899, she will be able to do so without registering the number, as anyone can. All that it does is tell you you have to register the number. It also gives you the number you are calling from at the end of the announcement.

I presume that when she calls from the phone, it gives a withheld number. If so, get her to put 1470 infront of the outside number. For example if she dials 1234 to make an outside call, and she wanted to ring 012345678, she would normally dial 1234012345678. Get her to try 12341470012345678. This will normally give out the number on a residential line when it is perminantly withheld.

So if she can call you by adding 1470, look at your caller display or dial 1471 to see if a number is left. I don't expect it to work, but it's worth a try.

Can you get us a link to some more information on this telephone system?

The 0870 040 prefix is allocated to NTL, change dated 11/1997.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 1:50pm:

Each of our Halls of Residence has it’s own unique character but most provide you with: A telephone in your room from which you can call your friends in Halls for free. We only charge you for calls out of the University at standard BT rates.

personally I wouldn't count on this information being correct, until you've proved it.   If it isn't then you might try holding them to honouring such a statement on their website advertising their accomodation, unless an exploitative student telephony system is one of the unique features adding to this Hall's unique character.

Thanx for your help I'm going to speak to her about it and try to take it all in myself first too :) slowly. I'll let you know what happens and I'll ask her for all the information shes got on the system

Thanx Again

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 2:56pm:

Get her to dial 1899 (with the appropriate prefix to get an outside line). .................. It also gives you the number you are calling from at the end of the announcement.

Hey Dave, that's a great way of getting the Geographic number.    I tried it from a line for which BT Line Test tells you the 0870 number, but sure enough this way it tells you the geographic number.
I fear 'though any decent Student telephony system will have barred access to all such CPS codes, because as you say,   anyone could register......., but  the Uni. would get the bill.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 3:22pm:

Hey Dave, that's a great way of getting the Geographic number.    I tried it from a line for which BT Line Test tells you the 0870 number, but sure enough this way it tells you the geographic number.

This should be treated with caution!

Why, because the number it gives may be an outgoing number where all calls (from all rooms) come from. I seem to remember another university gives different geographical outgoing number(s) to incoming ones.

If it works, registering that number may leave you picking up the bill for calls made by others, should they discover it.

That said, if the geographical number in question is the same as the incoming one, then you've cracked it. So if you ring this number and get through to that room, you have the number!!

It's all ifs and buts, so see how it goes.

Never register a shared line of any type to an Indirect Access code like this (eg 1899).   Once it's registered all calls from the line (using that access code) will be billed to whoever registered.
The registered number is often likely to be a common number for a group of lines  and calls from any line in the group (eg. anywhere in the Halls) may also be billed to whoever registered. (Once it's registered anyone could use it).
Don't use the 1899 number for anything more than possibly just identifying a number for dialling back in on, as Dave described above.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 1:50pm:

Each of our Halls of Residence has it’s own unique character but most provide you with: A telephone in your room from which you can call your friends in Halls for free. We only charge you for calls out of the University at standard BT rates.

The "standard BT rates" will be the ones that include the "national rate" that is always quoted for 0870 numbers, i.e. 8p/min. It's certainly not going to mean hour-long calls for 5.5p, which would be possible if a geographical number for the room could be found!

ntl have eight numbers allocated in Derby:

01332 05zxxx
01332 23zxxx
01332 39zxxx
01332 59zxxx
01332 60zxxx
01332 72zxxx
01332 73zxxx
01332 74zxxx

As the extension is only three digits, you will need to try all the digits 0 to 9 in place of the z, so that'll be 80 numbers in total. It shouldn't take long, and as most of the numbers are likely to be unobtainable, shouldn't cost too much.

The first one is a dreaded "national dialling" number. I'd put my money on this one, in which case it won't work from a BT line. However, experience has shown that these numbers do work from ntl home phones and from Orange mobiles.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 6:31pm:

The "standard BT rates" will be the ones that include the "national rate" that is always quoted for 0870 numbers, i.e. 8p/min. It's certainly not going to mean hour-long calls for 5.5p, which would be possible if a geographical number for the room could be found!

If that's case the statement may be defensible, 'although if as is often the case , students are in fact required to use scratch cards (or the likes) at some Real Rip-Off rates, then it won't be.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 6:31pm:

The "standard BT rates" will be the ones that include the "national rate" that is always quoted for 0870 numbers, i.e. 8p/min. It's certainly not going to mean hour-long calls for 5.5p, which would be possible if a geographical number for the room could be found!

Can we have a link to confirm what these rates are?

Hi,

My daughter is not in the halls this weekend so she won't be able to try it just yet but she's told me in order to use the phone for outgoing calls other than internal she has to go and register I think with student services or something so I don't know if she would get a bill every so often or what. So she can't ring me until she's done that to try and see if we can find the geographical number.

Thanx jrawle

I only just realised what you meant. I thought it was a BT line there but I can try it once she's back in the halls before she even registers the phone then. How do you know the extention will only be 3 of the numbers?

I am on NTL too and have 1899 so if any work I'll use that too. Why would it be 80 numbers to try? if I'm only replacing the z with digits 0-9 its only 10 tries isn't it or have I missunderstood?

Thanx for everyones comments its very helpfull of you all :)

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 2:20pm:

Oh I didn't know that was on. If thats the case then well maybe its just me calling her thats expensive

When they say BT standard rates that's a con as what they mean is the old national BT standard call tariffs associated with BT Standard Line Rental that has now been abolished (you now have to take BT Option 1 instead on a normal residential line as a minimum).  These BT standard national rate tariffs are now only used for the discounted line rental BT Light User Scheme and are 7.91p per minute in the daytime and something like 1.5p per minute in the evening and 1p per minute at the weekend.  You won't get the 5.5p for 1 hour deal you get on BT Option 1.

But best to get her to write to the university requesting the formal call tariff sheet so she has a copy when the bill comes in.

You can get her to submit a request to the University under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 asking them to reveal if there is an underlying geographic phone number to call.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 9:43pm:

I am on NTL too and have 1899 so if any work I'll use that too. Why would it be 80 numbers to try? if I'm only replacing the z with digits 0-9 its only 10 tries isn't it or have I missunderstood

Because its 10 times the 8 number blocks given so = 80.

As you are with NTL you might be in luck on the first number even though a BT subscriber wouldn't be.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 9:43pm:

My daughter is not in the halls this weekend so she won't be able to try it just yet but she's told me in order to use the phone for outgoing calls other than internal she has to go and register I think with student services or something so I don't know if she would get a bill every so often or what. So she can't ring me until she's done that to try and see if we can find the geographical number. ... I only just realised what you meant. I thought it was a BT line there but I can try it once she's back in the halls before she even registers the phone then. How do you know the extention will only be 3 of the numbers?

Originally you gave the number as 0870 0407***, so I assumed you meant they were three-digit extensions. Are the internal extensions 3 or 4 digits?

Your daughter doesn't need to be able to make external calls from the room to try the geographical alternatives, although it is easier to test if she is in the room.

I think it's very unlikely that she will receive a quarterly bill. They don't trust students with that, it's usually a pre-paid phonecard service in halls.

Have you tried Derby 597xxx or Derby 627xxx

xxx being the last 3 digits of the 0870 number

OK I found out the extention number is 4 digits not 3 and they are not the same as the 0870 numbers last 4. She doesnt ring anything else only the 4 digits to internally call.

Also if she were to register to ring out external calls she has to ring a 4 digit number which is completey different too, followed by a 7 digit account code they would give her on registration followed by a 4 digit pin code. Of course as she hasnt registed she doesn't know these numbers only her own internal one.

Not sure if any of this information would help but should I still try the NTL numbers above but use the extention 4 digits rather than replace the z? or does the info change anything. Would me putting any of the numbers down help?

Thanx everyone

hi dby416

No I haven't tried any of the numbers yet the number goes as 0870 040**** so not sure what to do yet. Are you from Derby?

Going by previous experience of finding numbers for these university systems, where the last few digits of the 0870 aren't the same as the extension it is the extension which should be added to the geographical (although obviously this is not set in stone).

I would've thought that as the university's main number is Derby 590500

The extensions will be 59xxxx or as the university also has Derby 62xxxx numbers the extensions could be 62xxxx

A simialr thing is in place at Aberdeen University.

The switchboard is Aberdeen 272000

General Departments are Aberdeen 272xxx  or 273xxx
274xxx

But all student accomodation phones are Aberdeen 275xxx

within the university taking off the (27) allows internal calls.

The 27 is the DDI prefix to make incoming external calls possible  by prefixing an extension with 27 to make a normal callable telephone number.

Yes am originally from Derby.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 9:23pm:

I would've thought that as the university's main number is Derby 590500

But the point is that these systems are there to generate revenue with 0870s. I would very suprised if it were this easy.

Does Aberdeen use 0870 numbers for each incoming phone line?

The accommodation phone system is often completely separate from the main university system, and there wouldn't be enough extension numbers if they shared the same code anyway!

In Leicester, the University is 252xxxx and 223xxxx, and the two different lots of accommodation are 005xxxx and 214xxxx.

From previous experience with NTL, the extension number is the same as the last four digits of the 0870 and geographical numbers.

Therefore, I suggest you try the eight Derby numbers I listed before with the four digits replacing zxxx.

Well I tried all 8, the first one was an unrecognized line the others rang but no one answered. My daughter was in her room with the bell on so they arent her numbers unfortunately :(

Anyone have any suggestions on what to try now? I tried her halls of residence number too but put her extension in the last 4 digits instead just to see but that was unrecognized too

I tried dby's suggestions without success aswell

Dave

I asked her to try the 1899 to try to get the georaphical number but its a lecturers internal number so she cant ring it. I told her to try the NTL alternative to 1899 (0808 1 708 708 ) number and that wont go through either because shes not registered for outside calls. She was actually trying to avoid doing that unless its really necessary as they want all her card details to register and shes not too keen on putting them in. It's really just so people can ring her cheaper

wrote on Oct 18^th, 2005 at 3:49pm:

I asked her to try the 1899 to try to get the georaphical number but its a lecturers internal number so she cant ring it. I told her to try the NTL alternative to 1899 (0808 1 708 708 ) number and that wont go through either because shes not registered for outside calls. She was actually trying to avoid doing that unless its really necessary as they want all her card details to register and shes not too keen on putting them in. It's really just so people can ring her cheaper

To do any of these she will need to be registered to make an outside calls!

If she picks her phone up and dials 1899, then she will get extension 1899 (should it exist).

If she picks her phone up and dials 08081708708 she will probably get the university operator, if 0 is the operator/switchboard.

In both cases, she must use some sort of prefix to get an outside line. You mention she will need to enter a few numbers before she can make an outside call. So if (for example) those numbers she must enter are 1234, then enter 12341899 or 123408081708708 and so on.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 9:13pm:

Also if she were to register to ring out external calls she has to ring a 4 digit number which is completey different too, followed by a 7 digit account code they would give her on registration followed by a 4 digit pin code. Of course as she hasnt registed she doesn't know these numbers only her own internal one.

It sounds like the 4 digit code to ring out shoots her straight through to an account validation server - possibly with Voice prompts for account code and Pin etc. (like using a BT Chargecard).  

If that's the case there's probably not much chance of getting a direct outside line. :'(

Jrawle

Well She was going to register to try it but as it seems in her case its just about impossible there’s not much point really. What I might do is actually ask them direct then for the geographical number under the freedom of information act as someone pointed out before. Although I think you have to pay for this information for administrative fees and I'm not sure if I'd actually get the information in the end from the little that was put on the site about that. I think I'd have to put it in writing too so it could take a while.

It's very disheartening though that even the Universities themselves add to the struggle to be at University now. Everything is against the students unless they are lucky enough to come from wealthy families

wrote on Oct 19^th, 2005 at 8:53am:

Jrawle Well She was going to register to try it but as it seems in her case its just about impossible there’s not much point really. What I might do is actually ask them direct then for the geographical number under the freedom of information act as someone pointed out before. Although I think you have to pay for this information for administrative fees and I'm not sure if I'd actually get the information in the end from the little that was put on the site about that. I think I'd have to put it in writing too so it could take a while. It's very disheartening though that even the Universities themselves add to the struggle to be at University now. Everything is against the students unless they are lucky enough to come from wealthy families

You need to telephone and establish the email address for their Freedom of Information Act Officer.  Their email address will then be firstname.lastname@derby.ac.uk presumably.

You then need to send an email with Subject Freedom of Information Act 2000 asking for the name of the telecoms company, what invstigation was made of the extra cost and accessibility issues for students and their relatives of using this 0870 number, especially for relatives who could only call on a mobile phone, a BT payphone or from overseas which all charge a fortune to 0870.  It would be unusual to charge for such a modest request.  Only Ken Livingstone seems to like to do that as he has a lot to hide ;)

wrote on Oct 18^th, 2005 at 3:06pm:

Well I tried all 8, the first one was an unrecognized line the others rang but no one answered.

It's the first number. I just tried it with a random number and got a random person in Derby.

Did you try the numbers from an NTL line? I could call from an NTL line. This is the same situation as in Leicester, where they use a "national dialling only" number that can't be called from a BT line.

These numbers can be called from NTL lines and from Orange mobiles.

If you'd like me to try your daughter's number from my line sometime and she doesn't object to me having her number, I'm happy to do that (send me a private message).

I'm on NTL myself so I don't know why its not working then but I tried it again but I already tried 3 times and it said it says you have entered an invalid number, this is also by using 1899 too though but all the other 7 go through apart from that one also using 1899 so I really don't know

I tried it without the 1899 too and all it does is give a dial tone

I'm not using a normal NTL domestic line, although with the Halls numbers in Leicester I know that people can (or at least could) call them from normal NTL lines. And I tried an Orange mobile last week.

NTL might have got wise to this and blocked the numbers, in which case there's nothing we can do. However, I might have another go at BT for blocking them, as they are obliged to allow calls to any number in the UK.

I don't know if the number maps to the same extension number, as I don't know who the poor person I called at random was. So perhaps you need an 01332 05 number but the last four digits are different.

To request FOI from the university would it have to come directly from my Daughter as a student or can I request this information?

wrote on Oct 19^th, 2005 at 12:49pm:

To request FOI from the university would it have to come directly from my Daughter as a student or can I request this information?

Anyone can request the information. I've just submitted FOI requests to three universities - Bristol, Exeter and Nottingham and more will follow. This exploitation of students and their families is a disgrace.

Well I emailed a request for the freedom of information officers contact details and they replied asking me to supply them with mt personal details and course details ect. I havent replied just yet I was just waiting to see what was said here

wrote on Oct 19^th, 2005 at 12:49pm:

To request FOI from the university would it have to come directly from my Daughter as a student or can I request this information?

See http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=test;action=post;num=1129240856;quote=40;title=Post+reply;start=30

Who can request information?

Anyone can request information under the Act after 1st January 2005, regardless of age, nationality or location.

What does it cost?
If you are requesting information contained in an authority's publication scheme, the scheme will also give details of whether (and how much) the authority will charge for providing the information.

If you are requesting information not contained within the publication scheme, the authority may charge you a fee, as laid down in Regulations.

These Regulations provide that requests which will cost less than £450 to answer (£600 for requests to central government) will be free of charge, although public authorities may charge for the cost of photocopying and postage etc.

If your request will cost more than this to answer, the public authority can refuse to answer your request, answer it for free, or charge up to and including the full cost of answering.

If you refuse to pay the fee, the public authority can refuse to supply the information.

In practice they won't charge for a request this trivial and if they were going to they would have to tell you.  So nothing to lose really and its probably easier for you to ask as you are the main disadvantaged party in terms of your call costs.  Also that way you aren't asking on your daughter's behalf but in your own right as someone needing to call their number which is a better situation.

Also Derby University has a section of their website telling you how to make an FOI request:-

http://www.derby.ac.uk/foi.html

They have a request form for information under their Publication Scheme but I would tend to ignore this and just make sure you call the university and check who the Freedom of Information Officer is and then send your request to that person.

wrote on Oct 19^th, 2005 at 12:56pm:

Well I emailed a request for the freedom of information officers contact details and they replied asking me to supply them with mt personal details and course details ect. I havent replied just yet I was just waiting to see what was said here

Personal details such as name, address and preferred method of communication are a reasonable request. Course details are probably irrelevant unless this aspect has a direct bearing on the request. As I said earlier, I made three requests yesterday and have already received two acknowledgements from the institutions. I am not a student nor am I the parent of a student and I also live in the United States. None of this excludes me being able to make a FOI request. I repeat, you do not have to be a student in order to make this FOI request.

They can't ask what course you are on.

Even journalists can approach any body covered by the FOI act to ask any questions they feel like asking.  So don't be fobbed off by this response.  I expect it is their way of trying to intimidate students out of asking questions.

Anyhow your answer is you are not on a course but you want to know this information because you regularly have to call one of their phone numbers.  So you have an ongoing relationship with the university

I contacted them and they told me to write to a lady who they said is the Information Co-ordinator for the University. They didn't seem to know who exactly the FOI act officer is or even if they have one. Do you think I should write to her then would she be the right person? They didn't give me any email address which I would prefer but I'm just thinking it's all going to take longer if it's not the right person. If anyone has any suggestions of exactly what to say to them it would help as I'm really not very good at this kind of thing but I do think it needs to be done

I called the phone number listed here on the FOI part of the Universtity's website:-

http://www.derby.ac.uk/foi.html

They tell me the FOI Officer is Linda Swanson but she only works part time on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday mornings (i.e. in the office only 30% of the week).

Her phone number during these times is 01332 591219 and her email address is linda.swanson@derby.ac.uk

I suspect its easiest to send an email as if she becomes confused about what you want she can always forward a copy to their telecoms manager.  Perhaps it might help to suggest the telecoms manager is the person she needs to forward your request on to but with Ms Swanson also reminding him this is an FOI request so has to be answered fully on that basis.

If they still seem to be confused you could always email the Vice Chancellor Professor John Coyne ( john.coyne@derby.ac.uk or see http://www.derby.ac.uk/VCWelcome.html ) who is bound to have the suitable seniority to make sure the request goes to the right place.  However as your daughter is a student I suspect its best to take the softly softly approach and stick with the FOI lady unless you run into a real road block.

I would quote to this lady the fact that an 0870 number for making a call to your dughter costs you £4.50 per hour to call in the daytime compared to 3p if you knew your daughter's geographic number and also quote the www.1899.co.uk website as proof.

I think the key thing though is to keep this as your complaint, as its your phone bill that is affected, and not your daughters.  Universities usually have to be deferential and obsequious to parents but rather less so to the students.

I'm not convinced there's much point submitting a FOI request for this information, unless it's just to inconvenience the university a bit and give their admin staff something to do.

The Halls at Derby are run by a private company with charitable status, and the phones are provided by an external contractor. Whatever the rights or wrongs of it, the 0870 revenue will be factored into the economies of running the phone system. Therefore they will tell you that it is commercially sensitive information that won't be released under the FOI act.

Even if they give you the number, I'm pretty certain it'll be 01332 05, which can't be dialled from most phones anyway.

wrote on Oct 21^st, 2005 at 1:58pm:

Even if they give you the number, I'm pretty certain it'll be 01332 05, which can't be dialled from most phones anyway.

But it can be dialled on NTL can't it?  Which this lady is on.

Also there is a point in the FOI request as if enough people make such a request the university will realise it is in the wrong and has to renegotiate the contract so a geographic number is made available.

Your argument that its factored into the cost by the company is a bit like saying Sky or NatWest shouldn't have to give me a geographic number as it might impinge on their chairman's annual bonus.

Since a run around seems to be being given here I would email the vice chancellor to draw the appalling ripoff for students relatives to his attention.  The fact is they usually have no idea the call cost difference can be as stark as 0p per hour for geographic versus £4.50 per hour for 0870.  This is because the whole sale's pitch to the university will have been a con claiming that 0870 was "national rate"!  If the Vice Chancellor gets to hear about it he might fire the telecoms manager and get the contract renegotiated.

One can't just roll over and take it as you seem prepared to do here.

I will contact them about it as I think the more people complain they might start to take notice even though it doesnt seem it's going to help us this year anyway.

I am on NTL but it seems I cannot ring from my phone to the number that it most likely is which is 01132 05**** NTL have probably now blocked it like BT have done.

nongeographicalman

Thankyou very much for finding that information for me. The costs you quoted there are they excluding vat aswell? as NTL always add the vat after the calls cost so if so it's even more.

I'm out of work through sickness at the moment so calling the 0870 no. would effect me a fair bit and it's an all on struggle for my daughter to pay her halls fees and all the extras without having to be worrying about anything else. I'm a single parent too so theres only us.

It really concerns me that sometimes students will have problems and contact is important, it just makes things more difficult

wrote on Oct 21^st, 2005 at 2:31pm:

nongeographicalman Thankyou very much for finding that information for me. The costs you quoted there are they excluding vat aswell? as NTL always add the vat after the calls cost so if so it's even more. I'm out of work through sickness at the moment so calling the 0870 no. would effect me a fair bit and it's an all on struggle for my daughter to pay her halls fees and all the extras without having to be worrying about anything else. I'm a single parent too so theres only us.

The call costs I quoted are for BT Option 1 in the weekday daytime who charge 7.51p per minute to 0870.  But many other networks like NTL charge more and other companies are allowed to charge up to 10p per minute to 0870 (£6.00 per hour versus 3p or 0p :o)  The BT price of 7.51p per minute or £4.50 per hour for 0870 weekday peak includes VAT.

If you register with http://www.18185.co.uk (part of the same Finarea stable of telecoms brands as 1899) you can call 0870 for 4p per minute plus 4p initial connection at all times but this is only any help if you need to call your daughter in the weekday peak.  As I expect you know BT goes down to charging 1.5p per minute for 0870 at the weekends (90p per hour) and 4.5p per minute (£2.70 per hour) in the weekday evenings.

The only way round it would be to get your daughter a Three contract mobile on the deal offered on this site ( http://www.e2save.com/mobile/phones/disphandset.php?network=three&handset=6630cl ) with 500 minutes of cross network minutes and get her to call you using some of these 12.5 hours a months of calls to any uk landline or mobile at any time.  It still costs £60 for a year's contract for one of these mobiles though.  But you do get more than that value in calls and a free high quality mobile.

Or what about using either Voice over IP with Skype computer to computer or Yahoo or Microsoft Messenger Voice Chat services.  You probably have a friend somehwhere who knows about this technical stuff and your daughter must know some people at university who can  get Skype etc working on her computer.  Or did you say the Voice over IP ports were blocked by the university?

wrote on Oct 21^st, 2005 at 2:07pm:

Also there is a point in the FOI request as if enough people make such a request the university will realise it is in the wrong and has to renegotiate the contract so a geographic number is made available. Your argument that its factored into the cost by the company is a bit like saying Sky or NatWest shouldn't have to give me a geographic number as it might impinge on their chairman's annual bonus.

I don't think it's quite the same situation as big companies who use these numbers for their existing customers who have already paid considerable sums. Many of the halls phone systems have no line rental, so the providers would argue that the 0870 revenue makes up for this. However, I'm sure that in fact the price of the hall fees is higher to pay for the phone (I think Derby has a non-returnable "booking fee" - well, this is what you get when a private company runs the accommodation).

Anyway, I wasn't trying to claim that the use of 0870 was valid. I was just guessing what the likely response from the university will be. Ever since the FOI Act came into force, whenever someone wants a number, everyone on this site is so quick to say "FOI", but many of the organisations have cited commercial sensitivity to justify not revealing the numbers.

You are quite right about the FOI being one way to make it clear to the university that people are dissatisfied by the 0870 numbers. E-mailing the VC is also a good idea. However, as with companies, the university probably won't care less about its "customers". Most universities use 0870 numbers anyway, so what's the alternative? Live out of halls, study abroad, or go for a modern apprenticeship, it would seem!  ;)


onesexylady: About the assumed 05xxxx number, perhaps it won't ring from an NTL line because the last four digits are invalid. I suggest you try dialling some random numbers across the whole range and see if you can get through. On Monday I'll try another number and if I get through, give the number to you. (I do pity the people I call at random, but two calls won't hurt!) Unfortunately, I don't think I know anyone with a domestic NTL line who I can ask to try things for me any more.

Onesexylady. Do you and your daughter by any chance have PAYG mobiles.If so what network are you on.I might be able suggest a way of making cheaper 0870 calls,or cheaper calls to your daughter.

wrote on Oct 19^th, 2005 at 11:22am:

It's the first number. I just tried it with a random number and got a random person in Derby.

Are you sure it was someone at the university? Can you tell us what the 3rd digit was, this may be the one we're after. :-/


wrote on Oct 21^st, 2005 at 10:32pm:

onesexylady: About the assumed 05xxxx number, perhaps it won't ring from an NTL line because the last four digits are invalid. I suggest you try dialling some random numbers across the whole range and see if you can get through. ...

onesexylady, have you tried all combinations? Ie, 05#xxx with # as 0 through to 9 and xxx as last 3 digits of extension and last 3 digits of 0870? That gives 20 combinations.

I suggest you try the 3rd digit jrawle got through on.

Well its a 4 digit internal number not 3 like I originally thought so thats all I put through the 01332 05**** so I didn't see any other way of trying it. I tried all the other numbers they all went through with 1899 but her phone didnt ring in her room so it couldn't be them. With the the 05 one just 1899 said this is an invalid number but if I ring without 1899 it just rings. I just assumed NTL had blocked it

We don't have PAYG mobiles either but I'll look into the skype thing though

I can't quite remember what I dialled (which is stupid really!) although I think it probably started with 5 as there are extensions starting with that number in Leicester. There won't be as many as 9999 lines, so it's possible the first digit will be different... or maybe even all the digits.

I did ask the person who answered whether they were at Derby Uni and they said yes, although I suppose they could be living in a private house. I'll try again on Monday and this time record the number I dial!

With BT, it beeps and the lady says the number has not been recognised before I've even had chance to dial the full number! Perhaps the continuous ringing means you have the wrong room.

GUESS WHAT! I just rang again without 1899 and its her number she picked it up she must have been out when I called it the other day without 1899 but anyway it still tells me I have rang an invalid number if I ring using 1899 actually I have to ring 0808 1 708 708 because I'm NTL why do you think I can't use that? I'm going to look into the other cheap pre dial places to see if they actually connect to hers but it's the first one I have been refused with 1899

Do you really think it's too risky adding that number to my 1899 bill so she can ring out using it?

I'm also going to email 1899 to ask why they are not allowing calls through that number

How much will I be paying to call that number now without the 1899 service I'm not totally sure if it's NTL or BT line there that lines not a local line to me either but it's got to be better than 0870 :)

wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 1:38pm:

GUESS WHAT! I just rang again without 1899 and its her number she picked it up she must have been out when I called it the other day

That's great!! :D
How good are we?!  ;D
Do the last few digits match to the extension or 0870?
What about the third digit? Does this have any connection to the extension/0870? *** out the last few digits, but please let us know so we can add to the database.


wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 1:38pm:

How much will I be paying to call that number now without the 1899 service I'm not totally sure if it's NTL or BT line there that lines not a local line to me either but it's got to be better than 0870 :)

Who provides the line is irrelevant. It is a geographical number, so whatever NTL charge you to call 01/02 numbers.

Hehe :) I'm so excited yes you are all blummin brilliant!!! I can't thank you enough :)

The 0870 numbers last 4 digits are completely differrent to the geographical one. The 0870 number is 0870 040**** but the last 4 are not the same as the internal dial number and last 4 of the geographical if thats any good

And NTL I think charge just 5p connection charge then free for me on 321 package all weekend it used to be local only. Just in the week its a bit more for non local calls. Actually I do think it makes a little difference if its not NTL to NTL though. But I'm looking into the other thingy dialers now anyway and asking 1899 why I can't use them for that just in case theres a fault :)

Thanx everyone I've been so impressed how everyone on here has tried to help so much you do a great job :)

wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 2:05pm:

And NTL I think charge just 5p connection charge then free for me on 321 package all weekend it used to be local only. Just in the week its a bit more for non local calls.

NTL 3-2-1 Standard information is here. Is this the package you are on?

From the little information NTL has given in that link, it is local calls to NTL lines only which are 5p, so calls to BT (and others) local numbers don't count.

However, these terms and conditions state:

Quote:

3-2-1 Standard [...] Our standard 3-2-1 telephone line tariff gives free unlimited local landline weekend calls with no connection fee. Local calls are direct dialled geographic voice calls made from your number to a number that (a) has the same STD code as your own or (b) an STD code that adjoins your STD code area (normally numbers beginning 01 or 02). All chargeable calls are subject to a 5p connection charge.

This doesn't mention that the local calls have to be to NTL numbers, so which is it? ???

Assuming you're not local to Derby, it looks as though you'll pay a 5p connection fee plus 3p per minute in the daytime, 2p/min in the evening and 1p/min at the weekend.

Got this message back from 1189 don't know if it really will be temporary but I have a feeling it wont be:

'Due to the complexity of some connections, technical problems may occur. This
type of fault is mostly
temporary, please try again later.'

I rang ntl to check the call costs and it seems I missunderstood thier letter to me recently regarding call charges

Its 3-2-1 so

5p connection charge to all

3p in the day
to all telephones ntl or not even local

2p at night
to all telephones ntl or not, but local calls are free

1p at weekend
To non local calls, all other calls free ntl or not

I made the mistake of believing all calls included non local calls were free at the weekend only but this was misleading worded in my opinion and you have to pay £6 per month for that on top

Anyway:

I'll sign up with 181885 or 18866 if it doesnt start working on 1899 or if anyone knows any others to try I'll look into them although it still might not work on them either as they are all part of the same group arent they? which is the best to try?

If I cant get a cheap pre dial at least it's better than 0870 by a long way so I'm still very happy :)

Its really good to hear you have managed to track the number down.

Two things really:-

(a) Do we think these numbers can only be accessed from an NTL cable phone line.  If so that's obviously why you can't access it using 1899 who basically guarantee equivalent access to all uk numbers that you can get on a BT line.  Try getting any friends or relatives of your daughter on a BT line to call her geographic number and see what happens.

(b) Do NTL offer an all geographic uk calls in the evening and weekend package at say £5 per month?  If so obviously probably worth you getting one of those depending how often you talk.

Lastly other than all uk calls off peak or at any time package with NTL the only people doing set prices per call (no matter how long) are 1899, 18866 and 18154.  They are all part of Finarea so the access situation should be identical.

You might however want to check out all the dial through providers listed on the below link, especially TopUpDiscount who claim uk calls are 0p per minute.  However their access number is 020 so unless I'm missing something then uk  calls are not really free.  Might be useful though if you are an NTL customer in London or on an adjacent exchange to 020.

See http://niftylist.co.uk/country_223.html for more info.

You could also consider one of these Three mobiles for £5 per month with 500 minutes of calls as if you need a mobile anyway that only costs 1p per minute at any time per call minute.

wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 2:05pm:

The 0870 numbers last 4 digits are completely differrent to the geographical one. The 0870 number is 0870 040**** but the last 4 are not the same as the internal dial number and last 4 of the geographical if thats any good

I'm a little confused... the last four digits of the 0870 number are different to the internal number, but the geographical number (presumably 05xxxx) is the same as the internal number? Please let me know, as this may help at other universities with NTL systems.

I'm going to have another go at BT over "national dialling" numbers. This time I'll try to speak to someone senior at customer services (after I've looked up the legislation that says they have to provide access to all numberes...)

Might it also be worth approaching the likes of 1899 to ask why these numbers can't be dialled?

hi jrawle

Yes I meant to put internal dial number not dial number so yes the last 4 digits of 01332 05**** are the same as her internal number, sorry about that.

I contacted 1899 yesterday and they sent a message back saying that when if I get the message 'sorry the number you dialed is invalid' that its usually a temporary problem and to try later but I just think its more than that as it's staying a problem. They said its due to the technical complications with some numbers. Anyway I then put another message through to report it as a fault I just said it was obviously not just a temp problem as I'd tried it many times but as yet I've had no reply. I did give them the number though

Even BT claimed it was a temporary problem, and blamed NTL, despite the fact that the numbers work OK from an NTL line. The fact it, these numbers aren't supposed to be dialled by the end user. Services such as 1899 might use BT to route calls somewhere along the line.

These numbers, beginning with a 0 or 1 after the area code may not be generally issued for end user use, but there is no technical, nor regulatory, reason why they should not be diallable.
I think.

From National Telephone Numbering Plan published by Ofcom:

Quote:

Definitions and Interpretation ‘National-Dialling-Only Number’ means a Geographic Number that can only be Adopted or otherwise used with its Geographic Area Code and for purposes where End-Users will not dial it;

Quote:

‘National-Dialling-Only’ Numbers B3.1.5 Geographic Numbers shown as ‘Free for National-Dialling-Only’ in the National Numbering Scheme shall not be Adopted or otherwise used in circumstances where they have public visibility. Where these numbers are Adopted or used for outgoing services a presentation number that is either non-geographic or which permits Local Dialling shall appear for Calling-Line Identification purposes. In the event of a code change to eight-digit numbering in a geographic area, those who have Adopted or used ‘National-Dialling-Only’ numbers shall migrate to the appropriate new range by the end of Parallel running.

So what is Ofcom's stance on these numbers with regards to BT's obligation to allow all numbers to be diallable from its lines?

wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2005 at 3:20pm:

So what is Ofcom's stance on these numbers with regards to BT's obligation to allow all numbers to be diallable from its lines?

Typical Ofcom Reply:-

"We will amend the regulations to fit in with whatever our former working colleagues at NTL and BT tell us best fits in with their business plans."

"As for customers, bloody complainers the lot of them always trying to get in the way of a decent profit for the hardworking directors of telecoms companies" ::)

I just wanted to confirm that 01332 05xxxx does indeed work for other student rooms, and that it is working from both a Vonage line and an Orange mobile.

No BT line here to try it with, sorry

I've added the number to the database as I couldn't find it in the unverified list.

Just wanted to say that we have noticed this number is nit accessible through some mobiles and some landlines, I suppose it depends on which provider you use but you get through with NTL don't know how long for though it seems they are clamping down what with the merge with telewest and getting rid of the 0800 numbers

onesexylady wrote on Mar 17^th, 2006 at 1:30pm:

Just wanted to say that we have noticed this number is nit accessible through some mobiles and some landlines, I suppose it depends on which provider you use but you get through with NTL don't know how long for though it seems they are clamping down what with the merge with telewest and getting rid of the 0800 numbers

If they ever do block access completely you should escalate a complaint to the highest possible level and deadlock with TeleWorst/NTHell and then take it on to Ofcom and/or Otelo for adjudication.  In a way it would be worth doing that now about the numbers that cannot access it although I suppose that might have the own goal impact of hastening the day of NTL trying to block the number altogether.  Ofcom are so useless that they rarely ever seem to intercede on behalf of the citizen consumer.

wrote on Mar 17^th, 2006 at 5:04pm:

If they ever do block access completely you should escalate a complaint to the highest possible level and deadlock with TeleWorst/NTHell and then take it on to Ofcom and/or Otelo for adjudication.

Will this get anywhere? I thought it's only BT that are required to allow access to all numbers.

onesexylady: these numbers, where the local number starts with "0", aren't accessible from BT lines. I don't know whether this is because they are NTL numbers, or whether BT simply block all such numbers. I suspect it's the latter, in which case NTL could do the same, I suppose. Some mobile operators, such as Orange, route some calls through NTL, so the numbers can be dialled from there too.

I still think "national dialling only" numbers count as phone numbers, so BT should allow access to them.