Dear All,

So to help increase the number of responses to Ofcom's consultation, why not do a e-mailout to the 4,800+ members of this forum encouraging them to have their say?  

This could also encourage members to forward the email to friends, relatives and any other interested parties.  Imagine if 2,000 members forward the email to just another 20 people - already 40,000 become aware of the consultation opportunity!

And, at the very least, such emails (particularly if it includes the website's logo) would raise the profile of the SayNoTo0870 site.  What is there to lose ?

Would agree that this does sound like a good idea, but would need to include a VERY brief example of what people could say to Ofcom (since all users will not necessarily be conversant with all the nitty gritty).

My view might be that many verbose members of this site would provide the technical 'bullets' in their submissions, the rest of us 'foot-soldiers' could then just put in short contributions showing our anger etc.

Thanks, Omy, and I agree we need to word such a e-mailout carefully.  We need to grab people's attention without overloading them with technical jargon.  As you say I'm sure the more experienced users of this site with greater expertise on these issues could knock something together.

I had ago at something like this myself but am not really satisfied with it.  Feel free to take a look and possibly sign up for too ::) http://www.pledgebank.com/saynoto0870

I really think we should this forum should develop a clear, accessible and succinct thread called something like "Guide to Responding to the 0870 Consultation".  This could be a resource which some of us could refer to but which also we could add our own contributions when responding.

Any offers to get this "Guide to Responding to the 0870 Consultation" started ?  Remember, just 35 days to go and counting...

This sounds an excellent idea, especially in terms of getting people to express more concrete opposition to Ofcom's bankrupt proposals to keep 0845 as premium priced NGNs for several more years whilst 0870 at least half return to being charged as geographic numbers.  Also Ofcom's disingenous claims that it would be difficult for 0845 dial up ISPs to change the number used by customers need to be taken apart.

Also the failure to regulate 0844 under ICSTSIS when being used by companies like NEG for doctors surgery line scamming and failing to move both 0844 and 0871 to 09 where they belong.  Also failing to tackle 07 NGN PNS scamming as part of this consultation process.

Also that Ofcom is going to do absolutely nothing to stop mobile phone companies from ripping off their customers with a ridiculous high premium rate when calling 084 and 087 numbers.

At the moment a few rather ignorant members of the public are generally writing back well done Ofcom for doing something on 0870 knowing none of the shortfalls in the consultation document or that this is the third Ofcom consultation on this matter in 2 years after 2 previous abortive consultations.

Your comments on this topic Daniel would be very much appreciated.

Any developments on a mass e-mailout of SayNoTo0870 members ?  
We've only got just over one month until deadline day so there's not very much time left...

wrote on Oct 31^st, 2005 at 12:35pm:

Dear All, So to help increase the number of responses to Ofcom's consultation, why not do a e-mailout to the 4,800+ members of this forum encouraging them to have their say?

Just adding my support to the above suggestion.

Also, it appears to me that the one resource that could really make a different is the money saving expert site which has tens of thousands (or even greater magnitude) of readers. Although I rarely look at the site these days, the odd glance seems to indicate that the once prominent campaign by Mr Lewis against 0870 has all but disappeared. He is the one journalist who really could make a difference. I hope he has not been 'silenced' by his clients which I believe include the BBC! Anyway if anyone has a good relationship with Mr Lewis or his site, perhaps something could be done to promote the consultation and solicit responses. I believe he was, at one stage, a sponsor of this site, and possibly still is.

Daniel should send an email to all members of this forum giving the email address to reply to at Ofcom and highlighting in plain English the main issues in the consultation which give genuine cause for concern.

It should be suggested that people reply on the issues that matter to them in their own words and there should be no attempt to provide a standard template because standard letters tend to be discounted as not having the same worth as individual ones.

wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 12:24pm:

Also, it appears to me that the one resource that could really make a different is the money saving expert site which has tens of thousands (or even greater magnitude) of readers. Although I rarely look at the site these days, the odd glance seems to indicate that the once prominent campaign by Mr Lewis against 0870 has all but disappeared. ...

MSE has recently published some new rules which forbid the use of links (apart from charities) in signatures. I had a link to Say no to 0870 and a link to the Ofcom Consultations thread over here. Both have been removed. I am very disappointed that a site that was supporting this site would remove those references. I received no PM explaining why, just a message on my MSE signature.  :-X

wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 12:47pm:

What about a mass email to all this forum's members though Dave? What do you think about that idea?

I'm all for it. I think that Daniel is aswell. If it goes out as a pm to everyone, it must send them an email to let them know.

Infact, that gives me an idea. What about a mailing list on this site? People don't have to join the forum to receive messages, they just have to put in their email address. Are there such services on the internet?

wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 12:53pm:

Infact, that gives me an idea. What about a mailing list on this site? People don't have to join the forum to receive messages, they just have to put in their email address. Are there such services on the internet?

Dave,

I think the trick would be to force people to have to sign up to do a number search so they would have to provide a username and an email address to do so.

On the other hand realistically probably only those motivated to join the forum are those who would be motivated to send a response to the consultation.

Do you and Daniel ever talk on the phone?  I know you have never met in person unless things have changed on that front.

Quote:

I'm all for it. I think that Daniel is aswell. If it goes out as a private message to everyone, it must send them an email to let them know.

Thanks for the responses to my query on the subject.

Sending a private message sounds a good start but I would add one point of concern.  I didn't realise this at first that (within everyone's profile) there is a tickbox that ensures  people receive an email after getting a private message.  For me, at least, the default left this tickbox unchecked.  I therefore woundn't be surprised if most people (unless they used PMs regularly) wouldn't get an email saying they'd received a PM.

Perhaps, then, a private message (which encourages people to send to others) could be sent out to start with, with a mass e-mailout later?

wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 1:59pm:

Sending a private message sounds a good start but I would add one point of concern.  I didn't realise this at first that (within everyone's profile) there is a tickbox that ensures  people receive an email after getting a private message.  For me, at least, the default left this tickbox unchecked.

What you say is correct.

The forum management has email addresses for every member so what they should do is to send an email to all of them encouraging a response to the Ofcom consultation.

I don't wish to sound too impaitent but I wondered if you knew when this email to all forum members might be sent?
By the way, I sent a private message to Forum Admin on the subject last tuesday.  Having said that I appreciate this site is driven by volunteers.
I'm just keen to spread the word further by forwarding the SayNoTo0870 email to many others too. Thanks

Recently, Gdh82 and others gave us some excellent £data regarding 0870/0845.

Thinking some more about a mass mail-out and what we might send to our own email buddies, I also wanted some simple yet dramatic statistics to raise people's awareness of and concern for the 0870/0845 issue.  Here goes.

My data:

BT have over 20 million residential subscriber lines.
Subscribers pay £450 average annual call charges.
Over 30% of call charges are now on 0870/0845 calls, and the proportion has doubled in the past 1-1/2 years.
BT take at least 60% of the 0870/0845 revenue, call centres up to 40%.

Calculations:

While the call centres together rake in annually 20 million x £450 x 25% x 40% = £934 million, BT itself earns annually a cool 20 million x £450 x 25% x 60% = £2.335 billion, a large part of their operating profit.

Conclusions:

1   BT and call centres cannot do without this revenue stream.

2   Residential subscribers who replace 0870/0845 calls with free or low-cost geographical equivalents will save on average up to 30% x £450 = £150 annually.

3   OFCOM cannot prevent revenue sharing continuing somehow between BT and call centres.  All we can hope is that they will be forced to provide geographical equivalents.

Question:

Do you believe we can use statistics like these to promote our cause in some way?

Note:

While I'm happy to provide background data for these figures through the forum if asked, I should appreciate help on the revenue split (60% to 40%) between BT and call centres (and other intermediate providers!) where I feel less comfortable.

Whoops!  My arithmetic was a bit dodgy in my post of 10 inutes back..

Calculations:

While the call centres together rake in annually 20 million x £450 x 30% x 40% = £1.080 billion, BT itself earns annually a cool 20 million x £450 x 30% x 60% = £1.620 billion, a large part of their operating profit.

Please forgive me.

Quote:

Residential subscribers who replace 0870/0845 calls with free or low-cost geographical equivalents will save on average up to 30% x £450 = £150 annually.

Impressive post, Sonny, with some quite shocking statistics that really do catch the eye.  Saving on average of up to £150/household should catch most people's attention as does the fact that call costs to non geographic numbers has doubled over the last two years.

Regarding myself as very much a newbie on these issues still, I'll leave it to others at to whether we should use these figures, and your question over the percentage split between call providers.  

Nevertheless, well done in compiling those figures!  And "Save up to £150/year on your phone bill" - sounds a good headline to me!!!

[glb]While I'm happy to provide background data for these figures through the forum if asked, I should appreciate help on the revenue split (60% to 40%) between BT and call centres (and other intermediate providers!) where I feel less comfortable. [/glb]

Right back to the discussion about revenue split!!

I know BT are trying to defend their 0870, but their share is not as massive as you may think.

Whilst the average customer would pay 7.5p per minute for an 0870 call, the telco companies offering the best rate for call centres seem to pay around 4p per minute, which is over half of the revenue.

I think that 5p per minute is a more fair figure of what the terminating operator receives per minute from BT, which they split with their end subscriber either in rebate or free call routing software (or both)

Also, remember that the price we pay for our phones is inclusive of VAT, so 1.25p per minute is paid to the government, leaving BT with only 1.25p per minute.

Although this is less than the previous calculations, it is less than the 3p per minute (about 2.2p + VAT) they receive on those who haven't signed up to a better deal on geo numbers during the day!!

I read in an earlier post that having made all this money from 0870, BT now want to abolish 0870 numbers (yes it is true), and these figures would explain why!!

During the evening, it might be fair to say that BT keep 0.5p per minute from 0870 numbers.  For calls that last longer than 8 minutes, then they are making more profit from their Option 1 customers than their geo call costing 5.5p (including VAT) for up to an hour.

Where BT make the money from 0870, is from their Option 2, or Option 3 customers, who would otherwise have made a free call.

Just remember, the biggest beneficiary of the 0870 revenue is the terminating telco, and not BT.

With all those figures in mind, BT probably can manage without 0870 as the originating supplier.  If all those 0870 calls were added up, and instead changed to geo calls, they would make more money from their daytime option 1, and 2 customers, and more money from short calls from option 1 customers in the evening, although they would lose money from those customers calling on an inclusive calls plan, but averaging out all those customers, they would make roughly the same.

They would only lose money, in their capacity as the terminating operator, where they receive 5p per minute from BT retail and mobile telcos.

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2005 at 9:01am:

[glb]While I'm happy to provide background data for these figures through the forum if asked, I should appreciate help on the revenue split (60% to 40%) between BT and call centres (and other intermediate providers!) where I feel less comfortable. [/glb] Just remember, the biggest beneficiary of the 0870 revenue is the terminating telco, and not BT. They would only lose money, in their capacity as the terminating operator, where they receive 5p per minute from BT retail and mobile telcos.

Hate to point this out but doesn't BT also terminate the vast majority of calls to 0870 numbers.  So it in fact makes far more than you appear to suggest.

I think this is what is sometimes referred to as "double dipping"! :o

Yes the terminating telco for most NGNs is BT. Since they have lost so much normal call traffic, because they are no longer sufficiently competitive, a large portion of their call revenue is now derived from the increasing change to NGNs. That is why they insisted in the last Ofcom consultation that the actual number for their NGN traffic was "redacted" in that consultation from the publicly distributed document, and of course Ofcom agreed (to help them out so to speak!).

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2005 at 10:28am:

Yes the terminating telco for most NGNs is BT. Since they have lost so much normal call traffic, because they are no longer sufficiently competitive

This is off-topic but aren't BT prohibited in some ways from being competitive?  When BT announced they were making local and national calls the same, ofcom was asked to investigate them by other teleco's (CPS, t/w, etc) as being unfair.  What the other teleco's meant was that they would be forced to reduce the cost of their calls to still be cheaper than BT.

Had BT been forced by ofcom to keep prices the same (ie national geographical still nearly 8ppm) then we would have a slightly harder fight on our hands with regard to 0845 classed as local and 0870 classed as national.  They would still be valid with regard to BT anyhow.

Hi bb_uk,

I agree that the issue of whether or not BT actually terminate the majority of NGN calls is strictly off-topic, but it was not me that raised it in this topic - it was Shiggaddi who raised it and I was merely replying to his point. In any case if you are making the accusation. As the first contributor to make that accusation in this thread why are you then continuing to discuss the off-topic issue? It seems to me a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

From what you write I could be forgiven for having the impression that you were something of a fan of BT and somewhat rising to their support? Sometimes comments like yours make me wonder how many of us there are on this forum that are really dedicated to fighting these scams. The first point is that these scams were started by BT and Oftel then rubber stamped them. The second is that every move BT make now is to introduce a new dirty commercial trick because they cannot or do not want to compete on an level playing field. Then they get Ofcom to OK their tricks and even to change the NTNP to make allowance for them.

BT did not as you infer force all their Line Rental only customers to Option 1 so that they could do them the favour of reducing call charges. They did it as yet another dirty commercial trick to extract more from the droves of their customers that were leaving them and going over particular to CPS deals or using other telco carriers for their calls; and to give the artificial impression that their call costs are more competitive than they really are. (NGM can give you the figure because he mentioned it before, but the actual annual cost to BT of providing a single domestic line is a fraction of the Option 1 annual fee.) That is the reason that other telcos were complaining, because it was a deceitful dirty commercial trick which Ofcom should never have allowed, since it was not in the interest of the Citizen Consumer.

The reality is that BT have the huge economies of scale. They have the huge infrastructure laid down. Yet it is such a poorly managed concern and is so inefficient that they cannot compete with newer telcos who have organised their businesses to be hyper efficient and cost conscious. Rather than BT being "prohibited in some ways from being competitive", in fact they have all of the advantages, yet they still cannot compete on a level playing field, principally because their management is so bad.

As the person who began this thread may I politely say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!  May I remind EVERYONE of the contents of the original post for this thread and may I suggest that the moderators of this forum take a more assertive line regarding off-topic discussion!


Quote:

Dear All, So to help increase the number of responses to Ofcom's consultation, why not do a e-mailout to the 4,800+ members of this forum encouraging them to have their say?   This could also encourage members to forward the email to friends, relatives and any other interested parties.  Imagine if 2,000 members forward the email to just another 20 people - already 40,000 become aware of the consultation opportunity! And, at the very least, such emails (particularly if it includes the website's logo) would raise the profile of the SayNoTo0870 site.  What is there to lose ?

And, on the subject, I had a reply from Forum Admin yesterday saying he hopes to organise this e-mailout as soon as he'd finished work on the new software upgrade.  Given there is barely 4 weeks left until consultation deadline I did respond by saying if possible this mailout ought to go out by the end of this week at the latest.

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2005 at 4:36pm:

...And, on the subject, I had a reply from Forum Admin yesterday saying he hopes to organise this e-mailout as soon as he'd finished work on the new software upgrade...

I noticed that the site owner mentioned it here whilst responding to a post by NGM.

Thanks bbb_uk for helpfully pointing out that  - I wasn't aware of it being discussed in the other thread.  Sounds like  the mass e-mailout or newsletter is coming very soon!

PS Good to see this thread getting back on track!  ;)

URGENT!!URGENT!!URGENT!!URGENT!!URGENT!!URGENT!!URGENT!!
Any developments on a mass e-mailout of SayNoTo0870 members ?  
We've only got just over TWO WEEKS until deadline day so there's not very much time left...

gdh82,

If something on the mass email-out doesn't happen very soon then I'm afraid many of us WILL start believing the conspiracy theory, as it looks similar to the way Martin did his "promise then ignore" thing that is presently being talked about.
If Daniel does the same it will be a strange coincidence - not that I think they are one and the same, of course.

So, does anyone have any news yet about the mass mail-out? Has it already gone out? If so I have not received mine. Is it to go out soon?

Surely time is running out?

dorf wrote on Nov 16^th, 2005 at 6:45pm:

So, does anyone have any news yet about the mass mail-out? Has it already gone out? If so I have not received mine. Is it to go out soon? Surely time is running out?

Perhaps Dave, DaveM and Daniel have all been working on it today which is why they have not been able to make any posts or edits in the forum.  ;) ::)

How long can it take to write an email for distribution?  It's been a while since it was promised.
I used to think this site really wanted to get 0870's sorted out,
I now go with the people who say things are maybe not what they seem to be.
Are we all being conned on here?  Perhaps NGM is right in his statements??

Now that is interesting NGM. You seem certainly not to be alone in your suspicions? What is going on?

Quote:

Tell Ofcom what you think of 0870s and you could save up to £150!!! Have you noticed how more and more companies are using 0870 and 0845 telephone numbers these days? Landline calls to these so-called non-geographic numbers can cost up to eight times higher than a call to a geographic number (beginning 01/02) and calls to these overpriced numbers amount to an astonishing 25% of all UK calls by value!!! Many people are either unaware of this or are simply confused as to what charges apply.  Worse still, these excessive phone charges apply when you are simply waiting to get to through, for example, to speak with an organisation's customer services department.   Meanwhile this underhand means of gaining revenue is then shared between the company you are calling and telecommunications company involved in making the call. Ofcom is aware of the public's widespread dissatisfaction with these arrangements and is currently consulting on the issues but the deadline is the fast approaching 6 December 2005.   You can read the many hundreds of responses by the public so far: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/ Why don't you spend just a few minutes on having your say by emailing ofcom on nts@ofcom.org.uk now!  And please do forward this email to many more people so to give them the opportunity of responding. After all, ending revenue sharing on non-geographic numbers could save on average up to £150 in annual telephone call costs!   For further information and/or to seek advice from their active and helpful forum then click below: http://www.saynoto0870.com/consultation/

For what its worth and to help get the ball rolling on this issue I've set out above my ideas on the shape of a mass e-mailout to forum members (and I've taken the stats from various threads on this forum - hope they're accurate  ;)).  The idea being to try to encourage even more people to respond.  I've also emailed this to Dan.

Even though I'm still a newbie, I believe its getting late to argue the toss on phrasing and emphasis of such an email (and I'm sure we could come up with as many versions of this as there are forum members!).  We just need to get the damn thing out asap (!) although I think some kind of SAYNOTO0870.COM logo ought to be included to make it look more professional.

I fully support gdh's comments above. Time is running out. Enough dithering.

gdh82 wrote on Nov 17^th, 2005 at 10:04pm:

Why don't you spend just a few minutes on having your say by emailing ofcom on ntl@ofcom.org.uk now!  And please do forward this email to many more people so to give them the opportunity of responding.

Just noticed - you need to modify the email address to nts rather than ntl! Wishful thinking perhaps?!

[post#474]

Thanks idb for the positive feedback as well as pointing out that mistake - now modified  :)

Yes keep trying gdh82, surely someone 'up-top' will heed your cries for action (although I still suspect the prevaricating will continue a while yet).

Thanks to gdh82 and others who have replied back to me with suggestions for the e-mail.

The e-mail will be going out to all registered forum members over the weekend - Briefly explaining Ofcom's proposals, and some of the problems with them (such as still allowing telephone providers to charge 0870 numbers at a higher rate, if they have the call charge announced before the call is connected).

Thanks again to all who have got back to me,

Daniel

Just received my email regarding the consultations and it was personalised as well.

Thanks Daniel for doing this.

Yes, well done Daniel - I hang my head in shame for ever having doubted you. :-[

Pity Martin is still not sending one as well, to all his site members (and others, as he once promised) - but again congrats on doing your bit.

Yeah, thanks Daniel.  Just think, if this encourages just another 10% of forum members to reply that'll be almost another 500 responses  :o