The BBC are incorrectly stating in a news article today at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4401900.stm (towards the end) that 0870 is national rate. I've submitted a factual error report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_3950000/newsid_3955200/3955259.stm pointing out that 0870 is not national rate. The BBC do update factual errors if enough people point them out. Perhaps if everyone could spend a minute doing this, they might correct the article to perhaps say "premium rate 0870 number" or "revenue generating 0870 number".

Quote:

The BBC are incorrectly stating in a news article today at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4401900.stm (towards the end) that 0870 is national rate. I've submitted a factual error report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_3950000/newsid_3955200/39 55259.stm pointing out that 0870 is not national rate.

Thanks for pointing that out, NFH.  As you say the more people report such inaccuracies (just done mine!), the less these half-truths and misunderstandings regarding 0870 will continue.  I, too, would encourage others to do spend two minutes doing the same using the links you've helpfully provided.

Just posted my complaint.

same done here.

ditto

Message sent:

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The reference to the 0870 telephone number being charged as being "national rate" is misleading. 0870 is charged at upto 7.51p/min from the majority of BT landlines. "National" calls are charged at upto 3p/min from the majority of BT landlines.

Also send a message regarding this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4404316.stm

I'm another who has responded using the BBC link you have so thoughtfully provided.

This is foremost a matter of public perception - I reckon that only one in ten people I meet from day to day are aware of the premium-rate nature of 087/084 numbers.  That's only 10% of the public who share our "perception".  Somehow, we must up that percentage.

The BBC is virtually the best mouthpiece we've got.  Let's use it for all we're worth.

I replied, too. It is important that the point that these are Premium Rate numbers is hammered home at every opportunity. Until the perception of them as some sort of vaguely benign and useful number is destroyed, and the public at large made aware of the scam that is being foisted on them, it will continue to be an uphill battle.

If you had tried to probe the 0870 issue with the BBC as much as I have you would come to realise they are unrepentant quite deliberate serial liars and abusers on the matter of 0870 and in fact in my opinion are the biggest and/or highest profile abusers of 0870 in the UK.

They have endless lines using 0870, including their main BBC Information that takes thousands of listener calls a day.  The staff in this call centre alway claim 0870 is the BT national rate if challenged.  I pushed one of these people very hard one day that surely he wasn't that stupid and that when he went home and picked up his own phone in Belfast he knew perfectly well that 0870 cost loads of money.  Under pressure he cracked and admitted of course he knew this but it was part of his training by Capita Call Ripoffs Inc to always tell callers who complained that 0870 was just the BT National Rate call. And of course thanks to the useless Ofcom they can actually claim it is BT National Rate as indeed it still is on the BT Standard Tariff paid by only Light User customers. ::) >:(

I have pursued the BBC very hard over the BBC Coast series which repeatedly rammed 0870 numbers to be called from mobile phones down viewers throats.  BBC Information at various levels made various trite responses about there being other ways to get the information from their website etc and that one didn't have to call the 0870 number on their coastal walks, even though in fact one would come across huge signs promoting the 0870 number several times during those walks.

Having exhausted all customer service channels on the 0870 issue at the BBC I am about to complain about the BBC Coast's program to the Governors Complaints Committee.  I will probably take up the more general issue of the BBC's overall use of 0870 at the same time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaints_process.shtml#new

But anyhow since the ASA Stop the Call Confusion Guidance the official BBC position is to not quote a call price at all, since broadcast media are not covered by Stop the Call Confusion requiring cost to be quoted in adverts, but the BBC do now seem to have got a vague inkling that using the term National Rate is no longer publicly acceptable.  However the brain washed culture of lying about 0870 at the BBC is so deep and ingrained that its very hard indeed to get them out of the habit.  And what's the betting that if 0870 is changed to geographic rates the BBC will then move over to 0845> :o

wrote on Nov 6^th, 2005 at 12:56am:

...And what's the betting that if 0870 is changed to geographic rates the BBC will then move over to 0845> :o

I suspect they'll move to an 0844 costing 5ppm all the time.

That way they'll only lose a bit of revenue daytime but make up for it for any calls received during evening & weekend.

I think a majority part of the BBC, its employees, its associates and their employees, are merely reflecting the fog that has been generated for years on this issue aimed at defrauding the general public. If your average Call Centre employee knows no better and is (deliberately?) not trained better then clearly their replies are going to be woolly or just plain wrong. Such employees are not encouraged to think for themselves. How would anyone know the difference between 'national', 'trunk', 'standard', 'universal', 'normal', 'general', and other similar words.

However if we must have a word to describe rates, 'premium' has struck a chord with people effectively, through premium rate sex lines, unsolicited reverse-charge text messages, scam switching internet diallers etc. That’s why it has been encouraging of late to see London BBC TV local news describe 0870 as premium, and of course, we have the BBC Watchdog climbdown. We are not likely to get much better publicity on this issue than on BBC1 television at 7pm in the evening, although as a consumer programme they did miss a golden opportunity to expand their change of number into an item to explain why they were changing their contact number from an 0870 and exactly what difference it will mean. We will see what mention is made of this on the more specialised Money programme 'The Great Phone Call Con' this Friday 11th Nov BBC2 at 7pm, although the previews do suggest they are examining just the premium rate issues as defined above.

The other part of BBC and its associates DOES know exactly what they're doing and saying re 0870 numbers.
You're right I guess it does have to be mainly management. Now that we are beginning to hit home in some areas, we need to expose the management in the other areas for the hypocrites they are.

And as we hit home the number of other ways to describe 0870 rates is actually increasing:
to mix metaphors  - if the fog thins, generate more wool!

Just listened (1120) to Five Live's traffic report. At the end we are urged to call the Traffic Hotline on '08700 100 500 - costing no more than 8p/min'. ;D

Pop the champagne or right hand vs left hand?

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2005 at 11:28am:

Just listened (1120) to Five Live's traffic report. At the end we are urged to call the Traffic Hotline on '08700 100 500 - costing no more than 8p/min'. ;D Pop the champagne or right hand vs left hand?

Steady on the champagne there as they are still using an 0870 number. ;) :o

However the BBC's various program teams do seem to be slowly getting the message that they cannot go on using the term National Rate.  But unfortunately it seems to be erratic and some parts of the BBC are still continuing with the National Rate lie.

As an earlier post pointed out, we don't usually carry our landline phones in the car.  My mobile operator is Orange (Virgin tariff), and their 0870 charge is 10p per minute, 24x7.

So I shall be sending another post in to the Bebe using the link previously provided.

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2005 at 11:59am:

As an earlier post pointed out, we don't usually carry our landline phones in the car.  My mobile operator is Orange (Virgin tariff), and their 0870 charge is 10p per minute, 24x7. So I shall be sending another post in to the Bebe using the link previously provided.

The BBC are only trying to follow the ASA's Stop the Call Confusion guidance which only asks that the maximum call cost from a BT landline to 0870 be quoted.

Suggest you complain to Virgin about why they charge extra for 0870, although I would have to say that as mobile phone operators go being asked to pay 10p per minute for calling 0870 is cheap! :o

After all they aren't charging any more in the weekday daytime than the Post Office are for their landline service.

They wernt saying anything about call costs this morning 6am-8.30am 7th nov.
I think she was going to say somthing about it before being interupted by nicky campbell.

08700 100 500 calls ...... and now onto the business report.

Finally had someone from points of view contact me about my 'comment' about POV using 0870, they said the call was being recorded and asked me to repeat my complaint again. So they maybe playing it on the tv.. yeah right.

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2005 at 11:59am:

My mobile operator is Orange (Virgin tariff), and their 0870 charge is 10p per minute, 24x7.

Actually, that is Virgin's (and Orange's OVP) tariff for 0845 numbers.

In fact, OVP Virgin is one of the cheapest ways to phone 0870 - the same as ordinary landline and same network numbers - 15p/min for first 5 min a day, then 5p/min.

There is a paradox here, that if someone intends to make 5 minutes each of calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers, they can save 50p by calling the 0845s first. [5 x 10 + 5 x 5; compared to 5 x 15 + 5 x 10]

So I suggest that nobody complains to Virgin about OVP tariffs.

GeographicalMan & Andy9
Thanks for correcting me (and Orange!) on the 0870 tariffs.  Yes, Virgin now admit they were wrong on two occasions this am when they told me it was 10p/min.  Of course, they no longer offer my Orange/Virgin PAYG tariff any longer, but (fair to them) encourage me to hang on to it.

BTW, could anyone please indicate what the other big UK mobile operators charge for 0870?

Thanks

wrote on Nov 7^th, 2005 at 2:36pm:

BTW, could anyone please indicate what the other big UK mobile operators charge for 0870?

O2 contracts, and the 100 minutes package on their payg SIM, have 0800, 0844, 0845, 0870 numbers from the inclusive minutes, but not 0871.

Some old Orange contracts (Everyday50?) include them.

Other charges vary depending on the contract, and it is often quite difficult to find the detail.

On a T-mobile off-peak contract a couple of years ago, I discovered 10p/minute, but this was not in literature with the SIM, or available in the shops. When I eventually spoke to their head office, they said it was on the website. I was not online then. They sent me a photocopy of the widely available leaflet about it.

This was when and why I started going back through old statements and bills collecting geographic numbers.

Just an example, but don't always expect fast and clear answers when half of a company's staff don't know.

BBC Editorial guidelines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/news/

<<
0870 Numbers

Ofcom is consulting on new proposals which could alter the way in which some 0870 numbers are used. This consultation will be completed in December 2005.

The BBC uses 0870 numbers for a range of purposes, including some phone-ins and audience information lines. The BBC is currently considering Ofcom’s proposals. It will be responding to the Ofcom consultation. For the avoidance of doubt the use of 0870 numbers are not “banned” and there is currently no change of policy over the BBC’s use of such numbers.

However it is important to give the audience as much relevant information as possible, when including an 0870 number in a BBC programme, website or service.

Any programme or site using 0870 numbers should include the following information (as a graphic for television and online and verbal announcement on radio): “ calls cost no more than 8p a minute “ .

It is not recommended that any programme should change their numbers at this time. If any programme is considering doing so, they should consult Editorial Policy in advance.
>>

Something tells me that BBC are going to ask that 0870 be kept the same and nothing done.

And going by what they wrote here I do believe they will use an 0844 costing 5ppm all the time if they are forced to migrate their numbers.

Quote:

“calls cost no more than 8p a minute“

I believe we should write to them over this statement as it is clearly untrue.  As we all know calls cost more than 8ppm from non-BT landlines and may cost upto 40ppm from some mobile networks so at the very, very least it should be something like:-

Quote:

“calls cost no more than 8p a minute from a BT landline.  Costs from other networks will vary“

wrote on Nov 8^th, 2005 at 12:30am:

BBC Editorial guidelines: http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/news/ << 0870 NumbersAny programme or site using 0870 numbers should include the following information (as a graphic for television and online and verbal announcement on radio): “ calls cost no more than 8p a minute “

It seems more emails are needed to the BBC's Director of Editorial Policy Stephen Whittle, advising him that calls to 0870 numbers from mobile phones can cost up to 50p per minute and that calls to 0870 from BT Payphones cost 11p per minute and thus the statement he has prepared on the matter is inaccurate.

I suggest you email:-

stephen.whittle@bbc.co.uk

with cc to:-

mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk (Director General)

and

michael.grade@bbc.co.uk (Chairman of the Board of Governors)