The technology exists to have a fair queueing system when calling a number, before accepting to be placed in a queue you are given your position in that queue.
"You are being placed in a queue there are ## people before you". then every so often a message saying how our place is progressing.
Its in use in Holland and voluntarily by some companies in UK.
I think companies with queuing systems should be forced to use it then its our decision if we wait on or not or try later.
No more endless waiting in the unknown

Not only that, but charging should be stopped when you are put on hold, just as if the phone had not been answered. It's not your fault that you have to wait in a queue, so why should you be charged to do so?

Call charges should only apply when a real person answers the phone, not when you are listening to music or doing the job of routing the call to its destination by choosing from menu options (press one for sales, press two for technical support etc.)

Hi AJR,

I am afraid that I do not agree at all! Why should a Premium be charged to speak to a real Human Being? That is what the telephone was originally invented for!

Ordinary conversation on the telephone is not an added value service. It is a normal telephone call. I do not accept that a Premium should be charged unless there is a true added-value service provided, which the caller actually wants to purchase; and even then it should not be permissible for a Premium to be charged until the receiving subscriber has specifically confirmed that they wish to pay for it, by means of a PIN or something like that, which would stop the scams with reverse charge calls, unwanted Premium text messages and Trojan Diallers etc. That is the normal legal basis of purchase.

You would not accept being charged for goods just because you entered a shop and browsed them - would you? The current situation with telephone scams is identical to that absurdity, but most people have been hoodwinked into not seeing it for what it is.

My local council uses one of these "you are in postion number X" systems. But they use it on a standard 01553 number.

However I have called many times on behalf of people and have been told I was in postion number 1 for about 35 mins.

I'm with dorf on this one - a telephone call to another person has no 'added value' in the vast majority of cases, so why should we all pay this extra premium?
As my submission to Ofcom said, only the total removal of 0870/0845 with all premium calls going to 09 will be satisfactory.

I'm confused by the comments on this thread about call queuing. Maybe what I said wasn't very clear. My apologies if that's the case.

I didn't say or mean to imply that a premium should be charged for talking to a person. What I said was almost the opposite of that. I just said that when there is call queuing there should be no charge at all until you're actually connected to the person you want to talk to.

I think, AJR, that dorf was meaning the 0870 rate is a Premium charge rate, so when you are connected to the human you are still going to be charged the covert premium rate of 8p or more per min).

Yes that is the basis on which I was thinking. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant AJR.

If you are suggesting that no Premium should be charged for speaking to a normal person, and no Premium should be charged whilst queuing, then surely there is an easier and clearer way to state that. That is: all normal calls where you will end up speaking to a person, without any added value which you wish to and have agreed to purchase, should be charged at Geographic rates both for call queuing and the actual conversation.

Where calls are queued on a normal Geographic number if you are using a low-cost provider like 1889 it really does not usually matter if you are charged whilst queuing. The call will cost you 3 p for up to 2 hours. That is what we are so angry about in these NGN abuses.

I thought it looked pretty clear that AJR was suggesting time spent in the queue was not chargeable to the caller, and once answered they were paying for the call.

No mention was made of premium rate or not, or what type of number might be used.

Perhaps if a new 08 prefix was used, and once connected, calls cost 1 or 2p per minute, few people would complain (only 18866 etc customers?)

In the dark ages of the telephone, when the GPO and later BT, they had an excellent system of not charing for waiting for someone to answer.

I seem to vaguely remember that before answerphones, 1571, voicemail, call centres, call queueing etc were invented, we used to have this brilliant system whereby you phoned someone, and listened to the ringing.  If nobody answered within a reasonable amount of time, then the caller assumes the person is unavailable and tries again later, and is only charged for the call, if the caller answers.

I do believe that some people still use this service to this day!!

Yes, Shiggaddi, I remember them well! Button A and B in call boxes - bring it all back. Calls were 2d each for 3mins and this was MUCH more expensive, comparatively, than now, so maybe I don't want to go back!!

Andy9, I used the term 'premium' in my first post as 'premium rate' is how BT refers to 0870 call charges.

I would be OK with your idea of no charge for waiting then 1p/2p once speaking to someone - but pigs might fly as well ;)

wrote on Nov 8^th, 2005 at 3:31pm:

I would be OK with your idea of no charge for waiting then 1p/2p once speaking to someone - but pigs might fly as well ;)

I've just been looking at an 0800 number provider that charges the receiver 2p/min; wholesale must be a lot cheaper. So split the cost - roll on a new 0815 or similar

Looking back I think I should have placed this original post in a different category.
My idea of a fair queueing system should be for all queues. Not just 0870 or 0845 numbers.
I think that where ever we are paying for a call we should have a right to know our place in the queue so we can make an informed decision as to wether we are willing to wait that long or not.
>:(I've waited 30 minutes without a connection before now with the dillema of should I stay, maybe it will answer soon or shall I quit and accept the loss I already made.
My god thats soo frustrating and so very wrong >:(

wrote on Nov 8^th, 2005 at 3:31pm:

Yes, Shiggaddi, I remember them well! Button A and B in call boxes - bring it all back. Calls were 2d each for 3mins and this was MUCH more expensive, comparatively, than now, so maybe I don't want to go back!! Andy9, I used the term 'premium' in my first post as 'premium rate' is how BT refers to 0870 call charges. I would be OK with your idea of no charge for waiting then 1p/2p once speaking to someone - but pigs might fly as well ;)

And I thought I was getting old  ;D

wrote on Nov 8^th, 2005 at 6:28pm:

Looking back I think I should have placed this original post in a different category. My idea of a fair queueing system should be for all queues. Not just 0870 or 0845 numbers. (

I hope we realised that. In fact my ISP has been doing this as long as I can remember - certainly on its present phone company anyway - whether you ring on 0845 or 0207

So I hope you will all be making your suggestion about people not being charged until they speak to a call centre member of staff in your response to the Ofcom NTS consultations.  Also that they should not be charged whilst placed on hold for several minutes by a call centre operative to have a discussion with their manager.

I think that is expressed as a hope for the future, and would rely on different charging systems. Difficult to see what it has to do with FOI.

In my opinion, we should ditch discussions of only charging 'when an operator is reached' etc, because it just muddies the water (and will be open to further abuses no doubt).
The only way forward is to simply have a phone call being a phone call (like it used to be!), where it was clear what a call was costing.  Premium rates for 'added-value' calls should all be 09 - everything else at normal geographic rates, do away entirely with 0870/0845.

I agree beginner,

Since now if you use the best value carrier you can expect to pay only 3 p for a 2 hour call at any time during the day, the time queuing on a Geographic number is now insignificant and not really a problem any longer.

In any case, in the original days of the telephone system you still had to pay by the minute if the person attending to your call went away to ask someone or to look for something to do with your conversation. Then you were paying whilst you waited, but now if you use the lowest cost providers on a Gepgraphic number you are not.