I have an 0870 number for personal use. I do not receive revenue share on it. I have such a number because I can remotely change the forwarding number at any time of the day or night.

I change location several times a day and even route my 0870 number to my mobile.

My immediate friends and family call me on it, as they know they can get me on it at any time.

If 0870 numbers are reduced to the geographic rate, I will have to pay to receive the call, as my provider won't be able to forward the call to me free of charge as it will leave the BT network before being forwarded to me.

As a result, if 0870 numbers are reduced to the geographic rate, I will have to switch off my 0870 number, as I will not pay to receive calls. My immediate friends and family will then have at least six geographic numbers they will have to try me on, with no guarantee they can reach me. If I'm out and about, they'll have to call my mobile number directly...so it will cost them more to call me then it did before. It will also cause them more inconvenience; they may have to dial seven numbers before reaching me, instead of just one.

As I don't like giving out my geo numbers to everyone, I will only be able to give out my mobile number to people who are not immediate friends or family, meaning their calls will cost more. I may even resort to using a Personal Number so as to shield my mobile number from mobile spam.

bloggs wrote on Nov 21^st, 2005 at 10:04pm:

If 0870 numbers are reduced to the geographic rate, I will have to pay to receive the call, as my provider won't be able to forward the call to me free of charge as it will leave the BT network before being forwarded to me. As a result, if 0870 numbers are reduced to the geographic rate, I will have to switch off my 0870 number, as I will not pay to receive calls.

Incredible.

bloggs wrote on Nov 21^st, 2005 at 10:04pm:

If 0870 numbers are reduced to the geographic rate, I will have to pay to receive the call, as my provider won't be able to forward the call to me free of charge as it will leave the BT network before being forwarded to me.

Yes, you will have to pay for the service you benefit from. However, personal number services (070 numbers) were designed for this purpose, although they are just as much of a rip-off as today's 0845/0870 numbers.

There's no such thing as a free lunch!

The benefit of using the 0870 number is with my callers - they only have to call one number instead of many. The loss of the 0870 number will make it more difficult for my callers to reach me.

pud wrote on Nov 21^st, 2005 at 10:16pm:

Incredible.

Why do you find it incredible?

Why should I pay to receive calls?

The benefit of the number, in this instance, is with the caller, for the reasons stated elsewhere in this thread.

Hi bloggs.

If you are constantly moving, and because of this fact are happy to have your friends pay extra for the privilege of calling you, what is the objection if 0870 is moved to an 09?
Your friends would then know they were being charged a premium rate - and could decide if you're worth it ;)

It doesn't need the whole 0870 covert premium scam to continue just for your particular case, surely (which, after all, must be a little bit unique!!)?  

Ask Ofcom to put 0870/0845 into 09.

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 7:58am:

[...]Why should I pay to receive calls? The benefit of the number, in this instance, is with the caller, for the reasons stated elsewhere in this thread.

You would not be paying to receive calls. You would be paying for the NTS that 'dials' your numbers in-turn.

The point is that your caller has to pay on a per-minute basis for the routing service with 0870 as it is at the moment. This is on top of what the caller would have paid had they called the number direct.

bloggs wrote on Nov 21^st, 2005 at 10:04pm:

The benefit of the number, in this instance, is with the caller, for the reasons stated elsewhere in this thread.

And so is the cost - I think that was the 'incredible' point - i.e. why do you not even consider the extra expense to which you are putting your friends?

omy wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 8:36am:

Hi bloggs. If you are constantly moving, and because of this fact are happy to have your friends pay extra for the privilege of calling you, what is the objection if 0870 is moved to an 09? Your friends would then know they were being charged a premium rate - and could decide if you're worth it ;) It doesn't need the whole 0870 covert premium scam to continue just for your particular case, surely (which, after all, must be a little bit unique!!)?   Ask Ofcom to put 0870/0845 into 09.

It's not a privlege to be able to call me - I believe it's a better way of calling me. One number to call instead of 5 or more landlines at at least one mobile to choose. Which would you prefer?

My friends aren't being charged premium rate. Premium rate services begin 09.

Why should I move to 09 and have to go through another lot of number-change-notifications to my friends and family? I got my 0870 number back in 1999 so that I'd never have to change number again.

Furthermore, 09 numbers aren't as accessible from BT and mobiles. I understand that 0870 numbers cost more to dial from mobiles then they do 'from standard BT lines' - however, 09 numbers would cost a considerable amount more.

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 5:31pm:

My friends aren't being charged premium rate. Premium rate services begin 09.

Ah, that old chestnut! lol ::)

0870 aren't premium rate! Well, that's that then, we've been against 0870 numbers, but they're not premium rate! I think we should disband this website and support 0870 numbers!  :D

If you follow the logic of what you just said, then mobile numbers (ie those beginning 077, 078 and 079) should be classed as premium rate.

Why no 'saynoto077.com?'

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 5:31pm:

It's not a privlege to be able to call me - I believe it's a better way of calling me. One number to call instead of 5 or more landlines at at least one mobile to choose. Which would you prefer?

The content of your post is so deliberately provocative and inflammatory that I can only assume you are  an undercover BT, Cable & Wireless or Ofcom person.

For the services you want there are a number of alternatives to which we won't object:-

1) Get an 0800 number.  Then you pay for the additional facility of having calls redirected wherever you want them to be instead of the caller who pays £4.50 an hour compared to a minimum 5.5p per hour for a BT Option 1 customer if you had an 01 or 02 number.

2) Get yourself a broadband connection and a Sipura SPA 3000 voip adapter then your friends can call you on your home geographic 01 or 02 number and if you aren't in it can then try redirecting the call using voip to another office or home landline you may be on (in which case the redirection will be free to you if you use say www.voipcheap.co.uk) and failing that it can redirect to your mobile at around 5p per minute on the cheapest voip provider for mobiles.  So you only pay if the call is forwarded to your mobile and the rate is cheaper than the rate your friends and family would pay to call your mobile which seems fair.

The application you are looking for is in any case a classic PNS one so to use 0870 is an abuse as indeed practically all current 0870 uses are.

You rely on the con of most of the public having been bamboozled and conned by BT and OfCoN into believeing 0870 is a national rate call even when it is not.  So you expect your callers to pay extra for calling you anywhere because you are two mean to pay for the facility you want yourself.  Also most people have a mobile phone for the application that you want and these days mobile phone calls cost little more than 0870 calls and you wouldn't have to pay anything for receiving the call wherever you are on a mobile if it is in the UK - which is sure to appeal to you.

I wonder if you are perhaps the gentleman with the Italian sounding surname who has made two submissions to Ofcom in strong support of 0870 numbers?  I can see no other possible purpose in your post other to deliberately goad people on this forum.

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 6:14pm:

If you follow the logic of what you just said, then mobile numbers (ie those beginning 077, 078 and 079) should be classed as premium rate. Why no 'saynoto077.com?'

They aren't premium rate but mobile rate which most callers are aware is equally expensive.  Why do you seek to deny 0870 is costing your callers extra when an evening call to an 0870 number will cost £2.40 per hour compared to 5.5p per hour to an 01 or 02 number on a BT landline?  Do you perhaps live in cloud cuckoo land or are you even perhaps a cloud cuckoo? ;) ::)

I would be more than happy for the name of this website to be changed to read www.saynotoofcom.org

Dave wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 5:41pm:

If you follow the logic of what you just said, then mobile numbers (ie those beginning 077, 078 and 079) should be classed as premium rate.

No they shouldn't. It is not the cost of a number per se that makes it premium rate. It is the way in which the call charge is divided up and is available for the recipient to benefit from (either financially and/or through the provision of some service from their provider). A mobile number is more expensive, but that charge goes to the networks for connecting the two parties.

A premium rate number has a premium which is passed to the called party. Look up the word 'premium' in the dictionary.

In a free market, providers can set their own prices of numbers, but 0845 and 0870 don't really allow for this. They stiffle competitive forces that should be driving down prices, hence the problem. What's more, they are used as a direct substitute for geographical numbers, which they clearly are not.

OK

Follow that logic then:

1) Allow terminating call providers (ie the suppliers of 08X numbers) to set their own tariff, which could then be moved up and down depending on market conditions.

2) At the same time end revenue share on such numbers.

Would this make you happy?

Dave wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 6:37pm:

In a free market, providers can set their own prices of numbers, but 0845 and 0870 don't really allow for this. They stiffle competitive forces that should be driving down prices, hence the problem. What's more, they are used as a direct substitute for geographical numbers, which they clearly are not.

Dave,

Either this person has no brain or more likely they are a sales person for 084/7 number retailer.  And in my experience the latter species almost never have a brain and usually have no conscience either.

Still it shows these people are running scared of their cash cow being killed off if they feel the need to publish such pathetic defences of their deliberate confidence trickery in this forum.

NGM

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 6:42pm:

Follow that logic then: 1) Allow terminating call providers (ie the suppliers of 08X numbers) to set their own tariff, which could then be moved up and down depending on market conditions. 2) At the same time end revenue share on such numbers. Would this make you happy?

You now give yourself away as an industry person with the use of the industry jargon "terminating call providers" and "revenue share".

What you have just proposed was Ofcom's preferred Option 2 in their last consultation which was given a resounding rasperry by the vast majority of respondents including BT.  You are asking for so called "increased granularity" in the 084/7 pricing structure.

This won't work because the abusive BT and the abusive Ofcom have allowed the public to be mistrained for years that 084 and 087 are just ordinary local and national rate.  In fact that is point one in the staff mistraining manual that you and your 084/7 number misselling friends give to the dumb call centre staff to answer any complaint about the cost of 084/7 calls.

It is because the public don't realise they are paying a revenue share that these numbers that they must all be compulsorily moved to number starting 09 to alert the public to that fact that they are paying extra for these calls.  In addition there must also be compulsory call price announcements of the call cost per minute.

Perhaps you can now reveal who you work for and the purpose of your deliberate wind up in this forum? >:(

Hello? If revenue share was banned on 08x, people wouldn't pay revenue share when they dialled such numbers.

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 6:53pm:

If revenue share was banned on 08x, people wouldn't pay revenue share when they dialled such numbers.

Elementary!  :o

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 6:53pm:

Hello? If revenue share was banned on 08x, people wouldn't pay revenue share when they dialled such numbers.

Correct so services like the one you want would in theory not be economically viablle and so would have to move to 09.  Also if I had my way 070 PNS would be abolished and forced to move to 09.

But due to the incompetence of Ofcom scam services like your one will simply move over to 0844 at 5p per minute at all times and any loss of revenue for the service provider in the week will be made up for by the tripling in cost for 0844 compared to 0870 at the weekend.  Ofcom incredibly plan to allow 0844 to carry on uncontrolled by ICSTIS even though it is a classic revenue share number.

Why do you persist in playing this game of making out you are a naive telecoms user when you in fact clearly know everything there is to know about how these numbers work.

Dave wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 6:56pm:

Elementary!  :o

I missed a point: If revenue share was banned, but TCP's were allowed to set their own rate, would you still complain?

TCPs set their own rate for whom? The caller or the called party (service provider)?

If it is the SP who is paying, then no, because the numbers can then be charged the same as geographical ones.

The point I am making to you is that your caller is paying for the NTS. There is no market force to drive that price down. The only force at work is that you can choose from many providers who offer different services (including different pay rates).

The caller must cough up, what is essentially a fixed rate, reguardless of their provider.

Surely, with revenue share confined only to 09x, 08 numbers would be a less thorny issue?

But Ofcom do not propose to confine it to 09 do they. >:(

Ofcom propose to allow the scamming to continue completely uncontrolled at up to 5p per minute (where your hypothetical re-routing service could clearly migrate) on 0844 and at up to 10p per minute where they know perfectly well the public will still imagine its national rate (coz 0871 sounds jus like 0870 mate dunnit!) even though it will be regulate by ICSTIS.

So now you suggest that even though there is to be no revenue share on 0870 to the person called under Ofcom's proposals the called telecoms service provider will still be able to get a rake off to let them run the service like on 070 numbers (so 084/7 numbers will then inevitably still go on costing consumers more to call).  Are you sure you don't work for Ofcom with a mind that works in such a variety of devious anti consumer ways as yours clearly does. :o

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 7:22pm:

Surely, with revenue share confined only to 09x, 08 numbers would be a less thorny issue?

Why exactly does a bank or insurance company need a revenue share? Why does it have carte blanche to charge me extra to call than calling a UK landline on a geographical number? Why is it cheaper to call companies abroad from the UK than it is to call UK companies from the UK?

The whole point of the National Telephone Numbering Plan was to have RS (premium) numbers prefixed 09.

084 was local and 087 was national rate, was it not? The regulator and the telecoms companies must have known full well that if prices of geographical calls was to fall (as it would do with competition), then there would be a problem with these numbers and the charging arrangements.

The excuse that revenue sharing is different to "premium rate" is just some rubbish drawn up by the regulator. Infact, the regulator regards 084/087 services as value-added services. I have yet to have one company admit to me that it receives revenue and thus provides a 'value-added' service to me.

Surely, with revenue share confined only to 09x, 08 numbers would be a less thorny issue?

You started off this thread by saying you didn't want revenue share banned from 084/7 because it would mean that you would have to pay for your calls to be rerouted.  Have you now changed your mind then? :-/

Yes if revenue share was completely banned from 08 and 070 number ranges and all revenue share was only allowed on 09 with compulsory pence per minute price announcements, and with line subscribers having to request that 09 service on their line be activated, and with a PIN number being needed to make any 09 call, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

But I doubt all the people you currently con into calling your 0870 number by telling them it is national rate would be as easily conned about an 09 number with compulsory call price announcements and call access under the control of the line subscriber. ::)

Surely it is possible to ban revenue share without reducing the rate to call the number. Most Ofcom responses I've read seem to upset about the fact that revenue is shared between the TCP and the Customer.

So you admit that this is in fact Ofcom's underhanded stealth intention then?  Ban revenue share but not make the calls any cheaper so the bloated and fat telcos get even cheaper and the mobile phone ripoff to 084/7 gets even worse.  Since you seem to have read so many consultation responses and used the deliberate red herring of pretending that you had your own 0870 number for call redirection to start this dialogue can you now reveal who is your employer.

But to clarify I am totally opposed to 084/7 calls costing the caller any more than for a geographic call.  The fact that revenue share abolition is required as part of this is incidental.  The fact is that I want it made totally illegal by Ofcom for 084/7 calls to cost the caller any more than an 01/02 call at his phone providers's tariff (including mobile phone providers) for geographic numbers.  I don't give a damn about TCPs, Transit TCP or any of the rest of your disgusting telco industry scam talk.  All I care about is that 084/7 calls turn back into normal price calls.  Anyone who wants to charge the caller more than their geographic rate must use 09.

Also all the consultation responses I have read indicate that the respondents are very unhappy indeed about being charged more for 01/02 calls and that the revenue share business is not in fact their major concern.

Whatever you may think, I do have my own 0870 number for PERSONAL USE.

bloggs wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2005 at 8:42pm:

Whatever you may think, I do have my own 0870 number for PERSONAL USE.

You seem to know an awful lot more about revenue share and phone call costs than you were originally letting on though.  Using an 0870 number to find you in all these different places is ridiculously cumbersome.  The ordinary person would just use a mobile phone.

I expect that as an 084/7 salesman brainwashed by all your own highly misleading propoaganda about 084/7 call costs that you may perhaps for some bizarre reason also have an 0870 for your own personal use.  However I myself would have a much lower opinion of a friend who asked me to call their 0870 number than their mobile phone number.  At least with a mobile number I would understand the reason that the call was going to cost me extra.

bloggs, as NGM suggested somewhere near the beginning of this thread that I'm reading for the first time, you might think of voip companies to perform this call diversion for you. In fact I'm looking at one that can probably do this with no hardware bought by me at all, and no broadband connection either. Free 0560 number or rent a landline number; other companies may have free landline numbers.

Calls can be diverted for about 1p per minute to landlines, so between you and the people calling you, the cost will be much lower. You suggest why should you pay for the service - the others have answered that already - because you are the user of it. The same applies to companies that use 0870 numbers - why should I pay for their outgoing calls, which is how the cross-subsidy idea was sold to them in the first place?

I have an 070 number, never used. I got it a few months ago because of some information on call forwarding that has since changed. It could be diverted to a foreign mobile abroad, and I could let people pay that cost. People that don't care the cost of ringing foreign mobiles would actually find it cheaper from BT than direct at 36p or 44p per minute. Believe it or not, some people think that saving money on phone calls is too much effort, and I see their eyes glaze over - we probably all have friends that we've described 18866 et al to, whose first question is - what's the catch?

What would you do when roaming with your mobile, try and figure a way to get your callers to pay your roaming costs or find ways yourself to reduce them? I'd rather give people a cheap way to call me - an 0871 direct number to a foreign mobile (cheaper than a UK mobile from landline), or a 2p/min 0844 number, and pay a few pence on top myself, or divert the call abroad from my mobile from inclusive minutes plus a few pence.

As NGM suggests, most people have mobiles with easier call diversion facilities, and from inclusive minutes. I won't go as far as NGM to suggest you have a secret commercial agenda in favour of these numbers, but I will suggest that a mixture of selfishness and complacency is preventing you find better solutions for you and the people calling you. If you only gave me an 0870 number, I'd object too.

andy9,

May I simply comment that this is an extremely helpful and sensible contribution on your part with some very useful information on voip numbers that offer call diversion at low rates.

I was half expecting to be reprimanded for my taking this person to task so vigorously for expecting us to pay for their phone facility but no for once you and I almost seem to concur on an issue.  I accept I was a little hard hitting in my responses but I really did feel that the original post that kicked off this thread was somewhat tongue in cheek, a view reinforced by the effective admission by the thread starter in a later post that they were well aware of Ofcom's proposals of last year for increased pricing granularity on 084/7 numbers and that they were also well aware that Ofcom's proposal to abolish revenue sharing on 0870 did not necessarily mean that 0870 calls would become normally priced calls for the caller.

I must confess to myself owning an 0870 number that provides a fax to email service just in case anyone should insist on sending me a fax, as my own fax machine ran out of ink and became moribund some time ago.  And although I don't believe in making callers pay for my phone facility it did not seem possible to easily get fax to email on a geographic phone number.  Also if anyone still insists on sending faxes they to some extent deserve to be charged extra for the privilege. ;)

If people use 084 or 087 for genuine call redirection at different times of day on 087 I have some slight sympathy with their motivation as BT has never historically been forced to offer the service on a geographic number at a vaguely sane or competitive cost.  However it seems obvious that if all 084/7 revenue share was abolished that BT and other telcos woud then have to offer call forwarding/hunting, fax to email and voice to email on normal geographic numbers at sensible prices to the person needing the facility.

So if pricing 084/7 calls above 01/02 calls is made illegal in the long run it will be to the great benefit of all telecoms users.

I also have one of those free 0870 fax numbers; I think that many ISPs have affiliate arrangements with eFax or whoever.

I believe you can subscribe to eFax for a geo number and more sending options, but I don't think I'm in a hurry; my only use so far was a test email they prompted me into as a marketing reminder.

I've got 2 mobile fax numbers as well - I think you get one automatically from 3 (never used it) - I've used the Orange one about 15 times, and got them printed at work or the local shop, but this 0870 will be better if ever needed and probably still only a 5p call anyway for single pages.


By the way, I haven't adopted the 0560 number idea yet - it is proving more than difficult to get the tariffs for them from mobile networks - they have no info about them.

I was referred this afternoon the the fact that it is a code for Kilmarnock, not in use at the moment - she could prove it - judging by the document they sent me to, it could have been defunct for 40 years

http://www.sigtel.com/tel_hist_earlystd.html

I nearly fell off my chair - [did anybody know that 0040, 0044, 0047 used to be STD codes for Outer Hebrides, and 0092, 0095, 0096 for Oxford - as I said to a friend on another forum, some people are bigger phone nerds than us]

Bloggs, you mentioned that your 0870 number diverts to a mobile.  Surely this is at cost to you.

If all your friends decided to get their own 0870 numbers, would have have any objection to calling them?

I have friends who are difficult to get hold of, but usually leave a message on their answerphone or voicemail, and they get in contact when they get the message.  If the call was more important, I'd try their mobile, which I can call with my free minutes on "3".  If I have to call 0870 numbers, I would have to use my O2 for this.

Also, do you tell your friends, that your 0870 number generates some income for you, or do you just tell them it a normal rate or something?

I do agree, mobile rates can be higher than 0870 from a BT landline, but nowadays alot of mobile companies, especially "3" do inclusive plans, which includes landlines and mobiles, but not 0870 numbers, therefore if your friends used this, they could call you out of their free minutes mobile to mobile.

I'm sure your friends won't mind being called back, if they knew that 0870 was more expensive.  And who is it important to, that you're instantly available?  Do your friends need round the clock access to you?

Since you probably pay for 0870 diversion to mobiles, you wouldn't mind paying for a geo number, using the methods explained by the other posters on this discussion, and pay a small fee for diversion.

I also have an 0870 number, but the only people that ring me on it, are big companies who have that number on file, instead of my geo number!!

Shiggaddi wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2005 at 5:22pm:

I also have an 0870 number, but the only people that ring me on it, are big companies who have that number on file, instead of my geo number!!

I still think you are wrong to have an 0870 though Shiggaddi as part of the revenue of each call you receive goes to BT, Cable & Wireless or Kingston Communications who terminate most of the 0870 calls.  So by having your own 0870 number you are simply further propping up the empire of these disgusting scamsters.

Are you not aware of the old business about "turning the other cheek".

If I had such a friend, I would prefer to call his or her mobile. They can then tell me, "I'm currently in the Leicester office" (or whatever) and I can dial that number. Then I can have a long conversation for considerably less than using an 0870 or personal number.

As most people these days seem to make most calls from their mobile, and many are on contracts with any-network inclusive minutes, they could just call your mobile anyway as it costs the same as a landline. It's only the 0870 number that costs a premium.

Anyway, we'll see what comes out of the Ofcom consultation. Hopefully it'll benefit most consumers. It'll inconvenience some companies, but it shouldn't affect many individuals as these numbers aren't supposed to be for personal use.

What has happened to Bloggs?

Do you think he now realises that he has lost the argument and retreated with his tail between his legs? ;) :D

What has happened to Bloggs?

Do you think he now realises that he has lost the argument and retreated with his tail between his legs?

He might be on the phone to someone calling his 0870 number!!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D