For anyone who feels that NGN related charges should be abolished is naive. Not all companies using this service are making extortionate amounts of money as some might think. Some, including registered charities use the service to reduce their overheads, which in turn may take the pressure in another part of the operation. By eliminating any so called profits from callers using their service, these operations will simply have to pass on the burden to another area. If people know they are being charged even a very small amount extra for using a service that is provided on an otherwise free basis in some cases, then perhaps then there would be less time wasters clogging up the telephone network. When you make a call to a customer service centre, somebody has to bear the cost of paying the person on the other end of the telephone line to take your enquiry. In some cases, the revenue received simply covers the cost of paying for the annual maintenance of the telephone system itself.
Basically, if you want somebody to sit ready to take your call, then you have to accept that you will have to help pay for it. admittedly there may be a few companies out there that simply use the system to rip people off, but don't tar everyone with the same brush.

'Very small amount extra'?!!! - well, $8/hour in my money for making a complaint, or what you call a 'service' is, I suggest, unacceptable to most people except NTS scammers and is not a small amount when aggregated over all rip-off calls that people are now expected to make.

These costs should be factored into the total cost of providing the service, as it is done here in the United States. We don't have these crazy rip-off numbers, and wouldn't tolerate them if they were introduced.

It is the NTS scammers that need to, as you say, 'get real'.

We hear similar arguments to this time and time again, and the answer's always the same. Sure, if people are going to phone customer services instead of bothering to find information for themself, maybe they should pay for the service and not be subsidised by less lazy customers.

However, I never use the phone if I can help it, and would never choose to call a customer services department. I do all my business online. The only time I call customer services is when a company has messed something up, got an order completely wrong, billed me incorrectly, or made some other mistake. Often the opportunity to make contact by e-mail is either non-existant or is just ignored, leaving me no alternative to phone. Why should I pay a premium rate to be kept on the line for 30 minutes - during office hours at a cost of £2.40 - just because of a mistake that is not my fault whatsoever?!

It's bad enough having to waste time calling to sort out a mess made my an incompetent organisation, without filling their coffers with phone revenue in the process.

realist wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:50am:

For anyone who feels that NGN related charges should be abolished is naive. Not all companies using this service are making extortionate amounts of money as some might think. Some, including registered charities use the service to reduce their overheads [...]

Hello realist. May I point you in the direction of Useful Information & Say no to 0870! Hot Topics which has links to other threads started by people who use such numbers trying to justify their use like you have done.

A few points you need to be aware of:

• The problem with 0870 (and other 084/087 numbers) is that they are covert premium rate. That is the person calling isn't aware of revenue share. Had they been sold as revenue generating, then there wouldn't be a problem.
  
• Revenue payments to service providers are relatively small compared to the cost of the call. Thus, it's a very inefficient way of, say, a charity generating extra funds.
  
• The services are paid for by the caller, rather than the service provider, who is the party using it. This means that there's no market forces driving down the cost of these NTS. All communication providers receive (pretty much) the same level of payments. Also, this is on a per minute basis.

Again I say, don't tar everyone with the same brush. The problem is not necessarily with the person at the other end of the phone whom some of you appear to be targetting. The NGN facility is extremely useful when publishing a contact number. It means that the terminating number is not tied to a particular service or point of contact for the rest of time. This gives a lot of flexability when making changes. Some of you must have moved home before and been irritated when people keep phoning for a previous user of your new home phone number. As individuals I'm sure you would all like a bargain, i.e. a new TV at 10 or 20 percent cheaper than the big chain store is selling it for down the road and a free extended warranty. You shop around. It's the same when you need a new phone number in any organisation. If you can get a free number instead of paying for it and get some of your operational overheads on that phone line covered as well then it's a tempting proposition.
I'm not at all impressed with the real premium rate lines that con people, that do make a lot of money and offer no or very little service in return. However, many businesses do make out-going calls which do cost money. They have to pay someone to make and or take phone calls. If they are a reasonable company and you tell them you can't afford the call charges then they will call you back at their initial cost, which again at some point has to be passed on to the consumer as overheads have to be covered else you go out of business.
If your local DIY shop with 3 or 4 lines going into his operation has an 0870 number, do you feel agrieved that he is trying to cover the cost of his business while you are phoning him for free advice whislt making the customers physically standing in his shop wait. I'm sure some of you have got fed up whilst waiting to be served because the attendant is busy talking on the phone to someone who either can't or is too lazy to attend the shop in person. When you get really fed-up with waiting, maybe you then leave without buying the goods you had gone in for. Result - another little bit of much needed operating revenue lost for providing good customer service to someone else. Or perhaps you sometimes drive a little bit further in your car to go to your preferred shop. You do this at your own expense without complaining to the shopkeeper because he is friendly and gives you the free advice. Life often involves a trade off.
I don't advocate for one minute people who make money for moneys' sake, and often you will find it's the middle-men that are making the money for doing very little, not necessarily the end service provider. So when you are on the phone about to complain for have to spend 50p or a £1 for a service that is costing a lot more to provide, think. You may be targetting the wrong person!

realist wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 2:46pm:

Again I say, don't tar everyone with the same brush. The problem is not necessarily with the person at the other end of the phone whom some of you appear to be targetting. [...]

That is correct. But the revenue collected and/or services received in kind from 084/087 numbers is covert. That means it affects every number with that prefix. That doesn't necessarily mean that every company consciously set out to rip-off their customers. Indeed, those on 0845 may have adopted their numbers back in the day when it was of benefit to most people, being local rate.

NGN providers have sold these numbers as 'local' or 'national' rate, making service providers think that it won't cost their customers any more to call. The more that jump on the bandwagon, as it were, the more that feel that it is the in thing to do, simply because everyone else in the industry does it.


realist wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 2:46pm:

[...] The NGN facility is extremely useful when publishing a contact number. It means that the terminating number is not tied to a particular service or point of contact for the rest of time. [...]

It is, and that is why there should a non-geographical number whereby the caller pays the normal rate, had they called the underlying geographical number(s) directly. The cost of the NTS would be paid by the service provider, as they are clearly the ones benefiting.


realist wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 2:46pm:

[...] As individuals I'm sure you would all like a bargain, i.e. a new TV at 10 or 20 percent cheaper than the big chain store is selling it for down the road and a free extended warranty. You shop around. It's the same when you need a new phone number in any organisation. If you can get a free number instead of paying for it and get some of your operational overheads on that phone line covered as well then it's a tempting proposition. [...]

What, a free lunch?  :o

Of course nothing is free, contrary to what today's telecoms industry would have us believe! It's more a case of who you can fool into thinking that it is free!


realist wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 2:46pm:

[...] Or perhaps you sometimes drive a little bit further in your car to go to your preferred shop. You do this at your own expense without complaining to the shopkeeper because he is friendly and gives you the free advice. Life often involves a trade off. [...]

Yes, but the shop doesn't charge me a premium on my petrol. I pay market price for that petrol. I don't pay market price for telephone call to a UK call centre (which is presumably fixed and therefore connected by fixed lines) which operates 0845 and 0870 numbers.

Dave wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 9:38pm:

[...] It is, and that is why there should a non-geographical number whereby the caller pays the normal rate, had they called the underlying geographical number(s) directly. The cost of the NTS would be paid by the service provider, as they are clearly the ones benefiting. [...]

I believe you've missed some key points:

When you call from your geographic number (eg 0209999999) to another geographic (eg 01419999999), your call is delivered landline to landline. The call is direct. There is no middle-provider.

Many NTS numbers are run by SME telcos and not big companies like BT. In this example I'll use NTS number 08709999999:
When you call the 0870 number, it generally goes to another landline: eg you call from 0209999999 -> 08709999999 which terminates at 01419999999). An outpayment is made from the originating telco to the NTS provide, after they have made a termination charge. The NTS provider use the revenue they receive to terminate the 0870 call on 01419999999 without any charge to the Customer. Any money left over will be used to pay the overheads of the NTS provider. Additionally, the NTS provider may or may not offer revenue share to the 0870 subscriber.

If you have your own way and the cost of calling an 0870 number is reduced to that of geographic rate, the outpayment made by the originating telco to the NTS provider will be geographic rate less the termination rate. This means the NTS provider will not be able to terminate the call without suffering the effects of negative margin. This leaves the NTS provider with two options: Charge their subscriber to receive the call or close the service down. I suspect alot of the smaller SME telcos will choose to close the service, as alot of NTS users are SoHo/SME companies who simply CANNOT afford to pay for incoming calls. This will lead to job losses in the telecom industry, closure of telcos and an increase in market share by BT, leaving both individuals and businesses less product and service choice in the telecom market.

Let me back this up by giving you a real-life example:
1) I have an 0870 number, an 08445 number and an 0845 number. I do not receive outpayment on any of these numbers, so I am NOT USING THEM FOR REVENUE SHARE.
1.1) The 0870 number is given out to general callers and companies whose products and services I use. I also use it to receive calls from international destinations as diverse as the USA, OZ and the Far-East...blowing away the myth that 0870 numbers cannot receive calls from outside the UK.
1.2) The 08445 number is given out to friends and some family members. They have the benefit of getting hold of me anywhere, anytime and I don't see why I should pay to receive their call. Additionally, the fact it has a per minute cost stops certain people from nattering on the phone for ages...something they would certainly do if they had a geographic number for me. If I were to use an 0845 number in this instance, I would have to pay to receive the call as my numbers are from an SME Telco and not a large telco like BT.
1.3) The 0845 number is my emergency contact point and is routed to my mobile. Only immediate family and some very close friends have access to that number, as I have to pay alot to receive the call - I offer them this choice as IT'S CHEAPER THEN CALLING THE MOBILE DIRECTLY. For the avoidance of any doubt, my mobile is used for general outgoing calls and incoming priority calls only.

2) I change location several times a week and need the flexibility which NTS provides me, including instant rerouting.
2.1) Some of the sites I visit do not allow me to give out any of their geographic numbers. Using an NTS number allows me to assure the sites that any calls I receive will not reveal their TLI.

3) If NTS is forced down to geographic rate, my SME telco will have to charge me to receive calls, or they may close the service.
3.1) Even if they don't close the service (which will be lucky), I will not pay to receive calls.
3.2) I will, therefore, buy a second mobile with a PAYG SIM in it. Now all my contacts using 0870, 08445 or 0845 will have to pay alot more to call me. I won't be giving out my home number as I don't want to receive calls at certain times of the day or night. Remember that NTS 08 numbers allow me instant rerouting, so I can reroute to another number when I don't want to receive calls, or even NU.
3.3) I will have to change contact / calling cards, stationary, website numbers. This will cost me several hours and several hundred pounds.
3.4) I will loose contact with contacts who've had my 08 numbers for up to six years, no matter how hard I work to ensure that everyone knows.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

1.1) The 0870 number is given out to general callers and companies whose products and services I use. I also use it to receive calls from international destinations as diverse as the USA, OZ and the Far-East...blowing away the myth that 0870 numbers cannot receive calls from outside the UK.

I can assure you that it isn't a myth. Check your facts first.

But if you want the service of routeing why do you want me to pay for it?

Why not pay for it yourself, if it is convenient and valuable (and useful) to you?

After all I use call divert on our various mobile and landlines for that reason; I do not expect clients to have to pay for my convenience? Or am I missing something? Apart from covert income.

Tanllan wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:12pm:

But if you want the service of routeing why do you want me to pay for it? Why not pay for it yourself, if it is convenient and valuable (and useful) to you? After all I use call divert on our various mobile and landlines for that reason; I do not expect clients to have to pay for my convenience? Or am I missing something? Apart from covert income.

You accuse me of  'covert income'. As stated elsewhere, I do not receive ANY TYPE OF INCOME/REVENUE SHARE to any of my NTS numbers.

I will not pay to receive calls. I will not pay for sales companies to telephone spam me. I will not pay for banks and credit card companies to call me.  If I am forced into that situation by the reduction of NTS to geographic rate, I will only give out a mobile number. My CALLERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE.

If I had only thought of my own convenience, I would have used only a mobile number, meaning that my CALLERS WOULD PAY MORE.  I use various NTS for the benefit of my callers. I have been told on several occasions that people were really pleased to get through to me without having to try several locations.

Additionally: Following your own logic, mobile numbers should also be reduced to geographic rate, as the mobile telcos receive 'covert income' from all calls made to their numbers.

idb wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:09pm:

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13th, 2005 at 11:04pm: 1.1) The 0870 number is given out to general callers and companies whose products and services I use. I also use it to receive calls from international destinations as diverse as the USA, OZ and the Far-East...blowing away the myth that 0870 numbers cannot receive calls from outside the UK. I can assure you that it isn't a myth. Check your facts first.

My own POV is that it is a myth. As stated elsewhere, I receive calls from abroad without any problem.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:23pm:

My own POV is that it is a myth. As stated elsewhere, I receive calls from abroad without any problem.

As I said, check your facts. Just because *you* can receive calls from overseas does not guarantee universal termination. See what the regulator says about the issue, ie check your facts. If you are coming here to tout the advantages of scamming numbers, then it is unlikely that you can deceive many of us with half-truths and bare-faced lies. I live overseas and NGNs are a nightmare. For those living within the UK, NGNs are a nightmare. They are only of use to scamming businesses who are so clueless about provision of customer service.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

The 0870 number is given out to general callers and companies whose products and services I use. I also use it to receive calls from international destinations as diverse as the USA, OZ and the Far-East...blowing away the myth that 0870 numbers cannot receive calls from outside the UK.

There are some countries where it is totally impossible to directly call 0870 numbers, including from some GSM networks. There are others that charge 0870 number at the same or higher tariffs than UK mobiles, for example increasing the per minute charge from 1p to 18p or 25p.

Don't believe it? In the same vein, try calling a French 0892 number from here using various providers. You can do it for 17p or 20 p per minute, but not 1p. Some providers, eg Finarea companies, simply will not connect the call.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:21pm:

You accuse me of  'covert income'. As stated elsewhere, I do not receive ANY TYPE OF INCOME/REVENUE SHARE to any of my NTS numbers.

Notional income - hence the earlier definitions of revenue share. And perhaps "accuse" is a little strong; not quite what I meant. Mind you on those numbers and uses there is scope for a financial element...

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:23pm:

My own POV is that it is a myth. As stated elsewhere, I receive calls from abroad without any problem.

Nobody is saying that it is impossible from anywhere at all. But it is impossible from several places, and carries high premium charges from others.

Stop accusing people of lying when they have direct experience. Since you don't wish to increase the number of calls you receive, I won't be arsed to list the countries that you will not receive them from.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:21pm:

Tanllan wrote on Dec 13th, 2005 at 11:12pm: But if you want the service of routeing why do you want me to pay for it? Why not pay for it yourself, if it is convenient and valuable (and useful) to you? After all I use call divert on our various mobile and landlines for that reason; I do not expect clients to have to pay for my convenience? Or am I missing something? Apart from covert income. You accuse me of  'covert income'. As stated elsewhere, I do not receive ANY TYPE OF INCOME/REVENUE SHARE to any of my NTS numbers. I will not pay to receive calls. I will not pay for sales companies to telephone spam me. I will not pay for banks and credit card companies to call me.  If I am forced into that situation by the reduction of NTS to geographic rate, I will only give out a mobile number. My CALLERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE. If I had only thought of my own convenience, I would have used only a mobile number, meaning that my CALLERS WOULD PAY MORE.  I use various NTS for the benefit of my callers. I have been told on several occasions that people were really pleased to get through to me without having to try several locations. Additionally: Following your own logic, mobile numbers should also be reduced to geographic rate, as the mobile telcos receive 'covert income' from all calls made to their numbers.

The point is - you have hinted it yourself - you are only thinking of your own convenience. The call diversion, the added value to you, is at your caller's expense. You would not be obliged to give a mobile number instead; you could give a landline number, and pay for the call diversion yourself.

If you were abroad, you wouldn't expect your callers to be charged extra to cover the roaming charge. No, I'm wrong; I suppose you'd get an 070 number instead.

I will not pay to receive calls. I will not pay for sales companies to telephone spam me. I will not pay for banks and credit card companies to call me.  If I am forced into that situation by the reduction of NTS to geographic rate, I will only give out a mobile number. My CALLERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE.

If I had only thought of my own convenience, I would have used only a mobile number, meaning that my CALLERS WOULD PAY MORE.  I use various NTS for the benefit of my callers. I have been told on several occasions that people were really pleased to get through to me without having to try several locations.

You seem to have merely repeated your mantra.

As we are pointing out, you are getting the routing facilities at your callers' expense.


Quote:

I will not pay for sales companies to telephone spam me

I see our approaches differ - why give them any phone number at all?

andy9 wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:54pm:

You seem to have merely repeated your mantra. As we are pointing out, you are getting the routing facilities at your callers' expense.

It is still cheaper for them to call the 08 NTS number then call the mobile directly - something they would have to do if I lose 08 functionality.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

I believe you've missed some key points: When you call from your geographic number (eg 0209999999) to another geographic (eg 01419999999), your call is delivered landline to landline. The call is direct. There is no middle-provider. [...]

The point I was making was in connection with the cost associated with the number. When I referred to calling a number 'direct' or via 0870 it had nothing to do with how many providers it might go through.

When calling the number direct, you are charged market price for a telephone call from one landline to another. When you call via 0870 you are charged for the NTS which routes your call to the underlying number. Therefore, the caller is paying, on a per minute basis for the provision of the NTS.


tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

[...] I suspect alot of the smaller SME telcos will choose to close the service, as alot of NTS users are SoHo/SME companies who simply CANNOT afford to pay for incoming calls. This will lead to job losses in the telecom industry, closure of telcos and an increase in market share by BT, leaving both individuals and businesses less product and service choice in the telecom market.

Oh, that's alright then! Let's keep prices high just to keep these smaller telcos in existance and their employees in work. ::)

I believe that alot of this competition in providers of NTS is at the direct expense of the caller, who is the general consumer who the competition is supposed to be benefitting!!!

Such competition is not driving down prices, but helping to keep them up at the old BT national rate.


tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

Let me back this up by giving you a real-life example: 1) I have an 0870 number, an 08445 number and an 0845 number. I do not receive outpayment on any of these numbers, so I am NOT USING THEM FOR REVENUE SHARE.

...But the increased cost pays for the routing benefits it brings, thus you are receiving services in kind.


tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

1.2) The 08445 number is given out to friends and some family members. They have the benefit of getting hold of me anywhere, anytime and I don't see why I should pay to receive their call. [...] 2) I change location several times a week and need the flexibility which NTS provides me, including instant rerouting. 2.1) Some of the sites I visit do not allow me to give out any of their geographic numbers. Using an NTS number allows me to assure the sites that any calls I receive will not reveal their TLI.

See this thread where bloggs uses an 0870 for a similar purpose.

If your callers were charged normal geographical rate and you had to pay, you would not be paying for receiving their call. You would actually be paying for routing their call to you.

Of course, it is your choice, and the issue has never been whether a caller should pay extra to call someone or a company. It is the covert benefits of the number, whether they be by being paid revenue, by receiving services in kind or both. Or to put it another way, the numbers are/have been portrayed as being 'national rate', when this couldn't be further from the truth.

Dave wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:11am:

Of course, it is your choice, and the issue has never been whether a caller should pay extra to call someone or a company. It is the covert benefits of the number, whether they be by being paid revenue, by receiving services in kind or both. Or to put it another way, the numbers are/have been portrayed as being 'national rate', when this couldn't be further from the truth.

The covert benefits of the number are there for the caller.

As stated elsewhere, immediate family members can dial an 0845 number to reach me on my mobile. There's no benefit to me there as I'm paying to receive the call. They get the benefit...of paying less then dialling the mobile directly and only having one number to call.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:15am:

The covert benefits of the number are there for the caller.

I did say "covert benefits". What I meant was the covert charges taken in payment for those benefits. If your callers are to use your 0870 because it benefits them, they should be aware of the increased cost in return for those benefits.

The original purpose of 0870 was for businesses. Whilst there is nothing stopping an individual having such a number, for the purpose you describe, 070 personal numbers exist.


tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:15am:

[...] They get the benefit...of paying less then dialling the mobile directly and only having one number to call.

We'll have to agree to disagree on who gets the benefits, although whether there is a benefit relative to mobile charges depends on which provider and package one calls from.

Up to now, this thread has been about your 0870 number for personal use. Most are used as business contact numbers, and that is the reason Saynoto0870 exists. We also do not object to all 0870 services such as dial-through international call providers, who are providing a genuinely 'value-added' service.

What are your views on 0870 contact numbers for business that you use? I am referring to insurance companies, banks, travel agencies, government offices and so on. Do you find it acceptable that you have to call such a number? The thread title is NGN charges - get real!, so does this mean you are happy to pay 0870 rates whenever any person or company gives you an 0870 number?

I don't have a problem with businesses using 087/084 numbers:

1) My Sky+ remote control packed up this morning. I had to ring Sky on 08702424242 to get a replacement remote control organised. I was in a Q for about two minutes before my call was answered by a person, then we spent around 15 minutes doing various resets and tests before it was agreed that a new one needed to be despatched. I couldn't have cared less that I had to pay 8p a minute from my BT landline...it was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

2) I also had to phone Coop Visa on 08456006000, concerning a card dispute. That call lasted nearly 40 minutes before the matter was resolved. In this instance I wasn't bothered that I had to ring an 0845 number...it, again, was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

Regards

Regards

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:23pm:

My own POV is that it is a myth. As stated elsewhere, I receive calls from abroad without any problem.

redtreble, tripleight.........................................

You honestly expect us to believe these are different people. ::)

Pull the other one.  Aren't you just Operations Director wearing yet another hat.

I refer to the honourable gentleman to the answers I have provided in the RedTreble thread.

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1134491343/15

I've been doing loads of overtime this week, so only now able to add my 2pence worth into this argument!!

I agree, getting your Sky service fixed, and disputing a transaction on your credit card are important, and at least you don't mind getting ripped off, and paying extra for the call.

But your argument saying that you won't pay to receive calls from banks and telemarketing needs the following solution!!  How about giving them a landline number (or 0870 if you want) and return the call when you get the time.  It works with me.

And as for diverting your calls to your mobile, and saying that it will cost loads more and put people off.  If someone has a mobile on 3, T mobile etc with inclusive minutes anytime any network, then the call to the landline will come from inclusive minutes, the call to your mobile will come from inclusive minutes, but the call to 0870 numbers will be charged at a premium.  Surely you don't want your close friends and family to incur this expense.

And why not give out a mobile number for your business contacts, or give out your landline number and expect to return calls later that day.  BT and other operators do have the basic technology to provide domestic customers at only a few quid a month a voicemail service where you can retrieve your messages from another phone, and not even need to wait till you get home.  You could check on the hour or something.

And as for the printing of new cards and stationary.  How did you manage when you decided to start using an 0870 number?  Surely this enormous cost would have made it uneconimical to have ever considered switching your landline number to 0870, or has the cost of printing gone up considerably in the last few years.

Anyway, if you like being ripped off so much, why did you bother disputing the card transaction with the Co-op, surely in the spirit of people who like 0870 numbers you don't mind people helping themselves to your money!!

tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:25pm:

I don't have a problem with businesses using 087/084 numbers: 1) My Sky+ remote control packed up this morning. I had to ring Sky on 08702424242 [...] I couldn't have cared less that I had to pay 8p a minute from my BT landline...it was a higher priority to get the problem resolved. 2) I also had to phone Coop Visa on 08456006000, concerning a card dispute. That call lasted nearly 40 minutes before the matter was resolved. In this instance I wasn't bothered that I had to ring an 0845 number...it, again, was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

So you think that paying more automatically gets you better service?

Therefore, it follows that you would be concerned that any company offering you a freephone number (one for which they pay for) provides a poorer service because you aren't paying extra. :o

It seems to me we have scored something of a Bullseye in our responses to Redtreble/Tripleeight since I notice that he has lately chosen not to throw any further postings on our forum darts boad. ;)

A case of One Hundred and Eighty to the forum regulars perhaps ;D

wrote on Dec 19^th, 2005 at 1:33am:

It seems to me we have scored something of a Bullseye in our responses to Redtreble/Tripleeight since I notice that he has lately chosen not to throw any further postings on our forum darts boad. ;) A case of One Hundred and Eighty to the forum regulars perhaps ;D

I think he's enjoying watching his Sky TV, with his new remote control, lol!!

Or he's come round to our way of thinking and is redesigning his business cards which now give a geographic and mobile number!!

tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:25pm:

I don't have a problem with businesses using 087/084 numbers: 1) My Sky+ remote control packed up this morning. I had to ring Sky on ~~. I couldn't have cared less that I had to pay 8p a minute from my BT landline...it was a higher priority to get the problem resolved. 2) I also had to phone Coop Visa on 08456006000, concerning a card dispute. That call lasted nearly 40 minutes before the matter was resolved. In this instance I wasn't bothered that I had to ring an 0845 number...it, again, was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

Quite apart from running counter to the main vein of opinion on the forum, which is your perogative, you appear unwilling to use the site's other facilities.

If you had chosen examples which have no alternative known numbers, then your expediency argument would apply, but this simply doesn't make sense. Why is it better to pay £1.20 for the Co-op Visa conversation than 3p?

Or don't you bother with any cheap call providers either? In which case I'm at a loss as to what it was that attracted you here.

If the amount of money taken in revenue is very small, then you won't mind this practice being outlawed, will you?

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:23pm:

idb wrote on Dec 13th, 2005 at 11:09pm: tripleeight wrote on Dec 13th, 2005 at 11:04pm: 1.1) The 0870 number is given out to general callers and companies whose products and services I use. I also use it to receive calls from international destinations as diverse as the USA, OZ and the Far-East...blowing away the myth that 0870 numbers cannot receive calls from outside the UK. I can assure you that it isn't a myth. Check your facts first. My own POV is that it is a myth. As stated elsewhere, I receive calls from abroad without any problem.

But a "point of view" is, by definition, not a fact!!!!  I can assure you that some 08... nos are NOT contactable from abroad as I found out to my chagrin when in Oz and trying desperately to contact my bank!!!! :-?

realist wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 2:46pm:

Again I say, don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I say tar you all of you 0847 hidden money grabbers with exactly the same brush and that should be the tar and feather brush that prominently commences 09 for the first two digits of the number dialled.

Then tell us all the sob stories that you want about how it makes it cheaper for you to run the service blah, blah, blah but make sure people know you are running a Premium Rate number that you are getting a revenue share from (or getting a subsidised call forwarding service in return for) and also allow any domestic landline owner to lock out the making of all such calls by other members of his household by default unless he chooses to enable the facility with a PIN code having to be entered to proceed with the call.  Also make sure there is a call price announcement indicating how much of the call price is going to the call recipient and automatic bans on queues over 15 seconds with the call being automatically disconnected and the call charge refunded if it is not answered in that time.

Then see if you still want to run your Premium Rate number once it is no longer a covert Premium Rate number.

Also how do you justify the vast extra premium charged for dialling 0870 numbers from a mobile or overseas.

You call yourself Realist but I call you Fantasist.