Hello my name is Jay and im from ink4-u.co.uk i first seen this site a year or so ago and have been thinking, and decided to do the right thing i have removed my 0871 number after all it didnt do me any good and it defo didnt do my customers any good so i replaced it with an 0845 so everyone pays local rate! Is this a good move do you think? Jay from  :)
www.ink4-u.co.uk

and i have added a say no to 0870 on my site as well near the bottom!

It's certainly an improvement. However, I'm sure most people here would rather you had changed over to a geographical number, starting with 01 or 02, so that they can make use of any discounts or inclusive call packages they may have. There isn't really such thing as "local" and "national" rate any more, as the vast majority of people pay the same for geographical calls whether they are to next door or to the other end of the country.

ink4-u wrote on Dec 19^th, 2005 at 11:58am:

.... so i replaced it with an 0845 so everyone pays local rate!.....

Hmm 1 step forward 2 steps back?

i dont understand, i thought people didnt like calling 0871 so an 0845 is better because it costs much less

Well, yeeeees, but the tariffing is so complicated (weekends, alternate Shrove Tuesdays et al.) that it is better to use a normal geographic number - or freephone. (Or Premium Rate).

well theres daytime, evenings and weekends tarrif, plus Bank Holiday tarrif oh and christmas day and christmas eve tarrif when its not on a weekend, plus the shove tuesday tarrif. Then theres the special ofcom rate. Oh and I nearly forgot all of the above from a mobile which is a totally different rate from a BT Payphone which is obviously different to the Landline.

Following so far?

Ink - If I rang a conventional geographical number beginning 01 or 02, the call would cost me nothing regardless of where you are. I am based in Hertfordshire - even if you were based in Penzance, John O'Groats or Belfast say, the call would still cost me nothing as I pay a fixed monthly fee to NTL for all my geographical calls regardless of where they terminate.  Even if I didn't have this package, by using 1899 I would still pay just a 0.5 p per minute fee with a 2p connection charge.  BT users only pay the connection charge regardless of the call length.  

HOWEVER, by using an 0845, you are introducing another 'profit taker' into the equation and are costing your customers 3p per minute to ring regardless of whether they have fixed calling plans or not.  Why should I ring an 0845 number?  They are now considered as Premium rate numbers, but obviously not to the same extent as an 0870/1 number.  With a third party non geographic provider involved, there are now 4 companies taking profit out of the customer:-

1) The 0845 NGN telecom provider which has to share it's margin with....
2) The customers telephone line provider the customer rents his line from
3) Your organisation's telecom company where the call terminates.
4) Your organisation which probably gets a 'kick-back' of say 1p per minute when the customer calls.

All the above is paid for by the customer.  Why should a customer have to pay for all these different profit takers?

Alt.

Yes, 0845 is like a smaller version of 0870 (and 0871). It is charged at local rate on some of BT's old (essentially pre-competition) rates. In July 2004 BT abolished it's main tariff where 0845 and local calls were the same rate and moved everyone onto BT Together Option 1. This is now the most basic package for a BT line. Typically, the only people paying the same for local rates and 0845 are people on the Light User Scheme.

Now costs to geographical numbers has fallen, leaving 0845 costing more. What's more, only a minority of BT's subscribers only actually pay different rates for local and national calls.

www.cartridges2u.com have a Freephone 0800 number and www.ink2u.co.uk have a normal 01 phone number that is free to call for anyone who has already paid a set monthly fee for the phone calls or who makes them using www.voipcheap.co.uk at 0p per call.  But your 0845 number costs 3p to 4p per minute depending on your customer's phone provider.  Its only 3p per minute you say but if everyone took your line of reasoning these 01/02 inclusive calling plans would be worthless (as indeed they largely already are) and everyone would be paying £40 or £50 a quarter at least extra in phone calls to these 084 and 087 numbers (all 084 and 087 numbers are bad as far as we forum regulars are concerned).

So no sorry your change is not good enough either in an absolute sense or vs your competition who are using 0800 numbers or normal 01 and 02 phone numbers.  But the fact that you used an 0871 number in the first place obviously suggests you can't be a very good businessman. ::)

Are you sure you aren't a friend of redtreble or tripleeight?  The line of reasoning in your posts seems really very similar to his way of thinking as he made a big deal of trying to suggest we think 0845 is perfectly ok when we most certainly do not. >:(

Organizations that use 0845 numbers should realise that they are not local rate calls.

For all practical purposes (99.9%), and for some time, the price distinction between a nation rate and local rate calls has been abolishes.  Like mobile calls in the UK, location does not matter to the cost of the call.

Providing a 0845 numbers does not help consumers in any way whatsoever, it only harms them.  The cost of using an 0845 number from a pay-phone or a mobile is often horrendous.

Please “ink4-u”, use a normal telephone number [01 or 02] and make your customers happy and increase your business.

I note that Ink hasn't replied to our last 4 postings!! :-X

Alt (to NGN numbers!!)

im not ignoring you, but i use other forums and normally it sends me an e-mail when i have a reply who is **redtreble or tripleeight** i am an ok business man please dont judge on a telephone number alone i dont think that is a good way to judge people. i understand what you are saying now but the person that gave me the 0845 told me it was a good move i now understand why they did this so on the 1st of January 06 we will have a normal geographical number. I see all your points but just thought they were local rate thanks for all your input it is good to hear constructive criticism

Congratulations, as I sure you have now gathered, it will remove a barrier a lot of people had to calling you.

Cheers, Des.

i only got an 0845 because the company assured me it wouldnt cost customersany more than local rate i see that isnt true so i am actually sorting the geographical number now. maybe an 0800 in the future maybe the 1st of Jani is to long i can get it done by the end of tomorrow.

Hi ink4-u

What excellent news. Well done. :)

Merry Christmas and Happy (and, I hope, prosperous) New Year.

Now that you have suffered something of a baptism by fire you can see why it attracts so much passion, particularly when you have not always enjoyed objective and helpful advice. :'(

well i removed the 0871 because i dont like calling them myself so why should others, now i understand more about 0845 numbers that will be taken care of as well.

ink4-u wrote on Dec 20^th, 2005 at 10:33pm:

im not ignoring you, but i use other forums and normally it sends me an e-mail when i have a reply who is **redtreble or tripleeight** i am an ok business man please dont judge on a telephone number alone i dont think that is a good way to judge people. i understand what you are saying now but the person that gave me the 0845 told me it was a good move i now understand why they did this so on the 1st of January 06 we will have a normal geographical number. I see all your points but just thought they were local rate thanks for all your input it is good to hear constructive criticism

Ink4U thank you for giving us this good news and for seeing the light so to speak ;)

I am sorry to hear that you are after all just another victim of the ruthless sharks who peddle these numbers to unsuspecting businesses although there again it does seem disappointing that so few people in the uk seem to be aware of what their phone calls are costing them.

RedTreble/TripleEight is a gentleman who works for one of the large call centre companies and who has been playing forum chess with us by constantly suggesting why his call centre clients are performing a marvellous service by charging us extra for what used to be just normal priced phone calls.  He then made a big deal out of the fact that the site was called SayNoTo0870 so implied we weren't against 0845.  Apologies for suggesting this might be you.

I hope the information I provided on some of your competitor phone numbers was useful.  Ink Cartidge replacements is a highly competitive game (unlike say Sky Tv subs) so you can't really afford to use a number that puts people off.  You could get an 0800 number at 2p per minute cost to you for a call but then again 0800 numbers are actually more expensive than a regular 01 landline number for anyone calling you on a mobile so I suspect its not necessary, especially as it ups your costs.

If we have educated someone like you who had wrongly been persuaded to use 0871 and then 0845 in all innocence then it appears this site will have done some genuine good and hopefully also will have helped your business to join the good guys.  I do hope that you may see an upturn in the number of people calling you and your ink cartridge sales as a result.

ink4-u wrote on Dec 20^th, 2005 at 10:38pm:

maybe an 0800 in the future maybe the 1st of Jani is to long i can get it done by the end of tomorrow.

www.call08.com seem to offer the best deal on 0800 numbers with you getting 800 minutes a month of uncharged incoming calls on your 0800 number in return for a monthly fee of £4.95 (just over 0.5p per minute if you use all 800 minutes).  After the 800 minutes are used up they charge 2p per minute which is still a lot cheaper than other companies like BT.

But you would still want to show your normal 01 number for anyone calling you on a mobile for whom 0800 is normally much more expensive than a normal 01/02 uk number as they are charged at a special premium rates and not free at all on mobile phones (including Orange contract phones who were the last to stop 0800 calls being free).  Also if you left your 01 number also available in your adverts then some of your customer's with 01/02 all calls packages might call you on the 01 number instead of the 0800 number so as not to further needlessly increase your costs.

I hope this info is of some assistance.

I'm pleased to see that this is now redundant, but, for the record, earlier this evening I sent the following message to ink4-u.co.uk via their web-site (was going to post this earlier, but had to wait for a password to come thru after registering):

<<
Sirs
I note that you refer to your new 0845 number as costing "the price of a local call".
May I draw your attention to the following:
1. Advertising Standards Authority states you "should not describe calls to [0845] as ‘local’ " - see http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/advice_online/ad_alerts/Advertising+0845+and+087+numbers.htm.
2. Committee of Advertising Practice states you "should not describe 084 ... numbers as ‘local’ " - see http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+on.htm.
and http://www.cap.org.uk/ASA_2004_Rebuild/Templates/news_article.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm&NRNODEGUID=%7BF1BF95E7-09FF-481F-92AB-E029B3E010D6%7D&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest&textonly=true
In most cases, any call to an 0845 number will cost substantially more than the cost of a local or national call (see the references above).
May I suggest that you revise the wording on your site in accordance with recommended practice.
>>

Anyway, glad to see that Jay now understands about 0845 as well.

Three cheers for ink4-u  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

You're a hero.  [smiley=dankk2.gif]

It just goes to show how much of this stuff is driven by willful misinformation. My hunch is it all goes back to BT and the recalcitrant way they've held on to local call revenue and the peculiar piecemeal way they've accepted change slowly but surely over the years.

Certainly, for a business that wants to oblige its customers the simply inclusion of a geographic number along with whatever other weird and wonderful numbers they want to employ is all this contributor to saynoto0870.com would ask. That way I get to choose.

The use of 0800 freefone numbers is part of business culture in the states. It is thought to increase customer calls and hence sales. The attitutude in general towards consumers in this country seems to me at least to be quite different.

It would be really great if all businesses would be as kind as ink4-u, and, at least if they don't want to give us convenient 0800 numbers, give the general public a choice between a non-geographic number, with all its supposed benefits of more efficient customer service through call distribution, and a geographic one, even if it does mean, in some cases, putting up with some busy signals from time to time.

If consumer choice is such a big thing, let's have the choice when it really matters!   :-*

And remember, never attribute to malice, what can be adequately explained by...misinformation.  ;)

longusername wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 1:13am:

And remember, never attribute to malice, what can be adequately explained by...misinformation.  ;)

If you read CarPhoneWareHouse and Vodafone's Responses to Ofcom's NTS Way Forward I think you will soon conclude that malice towards the consumer is their primary motivation.

ink4-u wrote on Dec 20^th, 2005 at 10:33pm:

i understand what you are saying now but the person that gave me the 0845 told me it was a good move i now understand why they did this so on the 1st of January 06 we will have a normal geographical number. I see all your points but just thought they were local rate thanks for all your input it is good to hear constructive criticism

It's nice to hear someone who is genuinely concerned about their customers! This just goes to show that many companies using non-geographical numbers have probably been tricked into using them by the companies providing the numbers who are the ones making most of the profit out of it.

jrawle wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 11:07am:

It's nice to hear someone who is genuinely concerned about their customers! This just goes to show that many companies using non-geographical numbers have probably been tricked into using them by the companies providing the numbers who are the ones making most of the profit out of it.

In my experience practically all the companies who use 0845 numbers have been tricked into using them under the pretext of it "being only local rate".  Also they were told they could not have the call stats and call redirection facilities they needed without using an NTS number for large call centres (not true of course as these are also available on 0800 bit cost the company more money)

This is less true for 0844, 0870 and 0871 number voice call centre users all of whom must know there is a revenue share involved.

No, an 0800 number is not necessary - you will get ripped off on the call subsidies and introduce yet another profit element for  another 'middle man'.  Also, most people don't know that unbelievably, most mobile phone companies charge for calls to 0800 numbers and that they are precluded from most 'free minues' packages.  Calling an 0800 number from a mobile can also cost a lot more than calling a conventional geographical number from the same mobile and you will pay a subsidy on receiving the call as well.

Just stick to a conventional geographical telephone number beginning 01 or 02 and it will cost you nothing to receive calls and either nothing or very little for customers to dial into you.  That's all we ask.

Regards

Alternative (to NGN's !)

i can confirm ink4-u.co.uk now has nothing to do with 0871 and 0845 we have a brand new geographical number. We feel better now but our marketing material doesnt. There is no way we could have an 0800 at the moment because we are a new business only been going 2 months. Sales are very very low we still have a great big bill to pay and a supplier problem at the moment, the site is on a major update right now! Which adds up so im in a rather horrid mood today, but thanks for all your help anyway.

ink4-u.co.uk = 020 7871 5344

ink4-u wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 5:32pm:

i can confirm ink4-u.co.uk now has nothing to do with 0871 and 0845 we have a brand new geographical number. We feel better now but our marketing material doesnt. There is no way we could have an 0800 at the moment because we are a new business only been going 2 months. Sales are very very low we still have a great big bill to pay and a supplier problem at the moment, the site is on a major update right now! Which adds up so im in a rather horrid mood today, but thanks for all your help anyway. ink4-u.co.uk = 020 7871 5344

And don't forget to sign up for http://www.call1899.co.uk/ on your business line(s) as well - make your weekday outgoing calls to UK 01/02 numbers for 3p connection and 0p/minute (like we do).

thanks but all my outgoing is free

ink4-u wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 5:46pm:

thanks but all my outgoing is free

VOIP?

Free? Wow, please tell me more :). Or prepaid?

Tanllan wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 7:01pm:

Free? Wow, please tell me more :). Or prepaid?

I think he only means all his 01 and 02 calls are free under an inclusive geographic calls plan.  I bet his 084 and 087 calls aren't free.  Which may perhaps be why he has finally accepted not ripping his own customers off for calling him.

Do as you would be done by is what I always say.

well i have done it havent i, and im not such a bad guy i have only been trading for 2 months so moving from 0871 to 0845 and then to 02 i think thats great

and i use Vonage do a search on google if you havent heard of it

ink4-u,

As mentioned by another poster, I'd like to say thanks for understanding our point of view and realising what these numbers actually are and no longer trying to rip-off the public unbeknownst to most of us.

Thanks again.

bbb_uk wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 8:53pm:

As mentioned by another poster, I'd like to say thanks for understanding our point of view and realising what these numbers actually are and no longer trying to rip-off the public unbeknownst to most of us.

Good to hear from you again bbb_uk.  I haven't seen you posting on the forum at all much lately.  Has the rest of life been distracting you?

As regards to our friend Mr Ink yes we must of course applaud his bravery in admitting to initially being mistakenly tempted by one of those naughty 0871 numbers before then no doubt being resounding abused by any potential customers (those few who would call an 0871 that is) and trying to improve on this with 0845 before then realising the actual 020 number pointed at by the NGNs is the one that is best for the customer.  If he uses Vonage though he should already be well aware that 084 and 087 calls cost a lot more money than those starting 01 or 02.

But as the old saying goes "Jesus tells us that there is more festivity in Heaven for the sinner who repents than for the perseverance of ninety nine just people".  Never could this be more true than in this particular case. ;D

WELL IM NOW ON THE CONVERSION PATH WITH FELLOW BUSINESS MEN TELLING THEM ABOUT SAYNOTO0870 THEY ARE REALISING THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE AND I HAVE CONVERTED SOME AND MANY MORE TO COME. I AM A MEMBER OF LOTS OF BUSINESS FORUMS AND HAVE STARTED DISCUSSIONS ON THEM.

ink4-u wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2005 at 4:25pm:

WELL IM NOW ON THE CONVERSION PATH WITH FELLOW BUSINESS MEN TELLING THEM ABOUT SAYNOTO0870 THEY ARE REALISING THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE AND I HAVE CONVERTED SOME AND MANY MORE TO COME. I AM A MEMBER OF LOTS OF BUSINESS FORUMS AND HAVE STARTED DISCUSSIONS ON THEM.

Well done ink4u.

As I said before "there is more joy in heaven at the one sinner who repents..........................." etc.

Keep up the good work.

wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 11:47pm:

...Good to hear from you again bbb_uk.  I haven't seen you posting on the forum at all much lately.  Has the rest of life been distracting you?...

I've been really busy for over the last month or so doing overtime, etc - basically preparing for christmas!   ::)