Although I am by no means an expert in these matters I do regularly chase and complain to to companies that use the 0870 prefix..... However after chiding one of them recently for using the term 'normal national rates' I received (by return) the response shown below which actually made me feel that their defence was very reasonable

Sorry 'fellas' but there are times when I feel hopelessly overcome (and somewhat demoralised) by the size of this scambusting task. Obviously B.T. can defend by saying that they really mean '0870 national rate' but if they can get away with these misleading words why shouldn't the smaller fry ?

Is there ANY approach one could take with B.T.  and how on earth could I persuade this company that they are wrong in these circumstances ?

I've always been of the opinion that it is only parliament that will solve this problem.

Laville (bloody) gour !


Dear Sir,



Many thanks for your email.
This an extract from BT’s website at   https://www.bt.com/feedback/feedback.jsp?formid=contactus_phonelist



“Numbers prefixed with 0800 are free on a BT line. Numbers prefixed 0845 will be charged at local call rates. Numbers prefixed 0870 will be charged at national rates. Calls to 118 500 (UK Directory Enquiries, previously 192) cost 23p per minute, billed per second, plus a 40p service connection charge. Calls to 118 505 (International Directory Enquiries, previously 153) cost £1.50 per minute with a minimum call charge of £1.50. All call charges include VAT and are from BT landlines (excluding BT payphones). Other mobile and network charges may vary.”






I understand you have to be a massive call centre to get any income out of BT on 0870 numbers

If anyone quotes that page, just tell them you don't use BT, and that in any case, BT is just another private company, not a statutiry body that regulates the telephone network. Point them to somewhere on the Ofcom site that gives the correct definitions.

Funnily enough, BT don't even have any 0870 numbers on that page. They do have an 020 number with no price information. Now, is 020 local or national rate?  ;)

Weeelllll, they appear to have made up their minds to take money off the callers.
Too trite to say buy from another company, because that may not always be possible or convenient, but it is an example for Ofcom :'(

lavillegour wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2005 at 12:17pm:

This an extract from BT’s website at   https://www.bt.com/feedback/feedback.jsp?formid=contactus_phonelist “Numbers prefixed with 0800 are free on a BT line. Numbers prefixed 0845 will be charged at local call rates. Numbers prefixed 0870 will be charged at national rates. Calls to 118 500 (UK Directory Enquiries, previously 192) cost 23p per minute, billed per second, plus a 40p service connection charge. Calls to 118 505 (International Directory Enquiries, previously 153) cost £1.50 per minute with a minimum call charge of £1.50. All call charges include VAT and are from BT landlines (excluding BT payphones). Other mobile and network charges may vary.”

I have recently been quoting the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA)
http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/advice_online/ad_alerts/Advertising+0845+and+087+numbers.htm

Quote:

Advertising 0845 and 087 numbers The ASA has recently adjudicated on complaints about the advertising of 084 and 087 numbers.  CAP is aware that the cost of calling non-geographic numbers starting with 084 and 087 numbers is variable for non-BT customers and that calls to those numbers are unlikely to be charged at the traditional ‘local’ or ‘national’ rates that previously applied. To avoid misleading consumers, marketers should not describe calls to those numbers as ‘local’ or ‘national’ respectively. Marketers should include pricing information in their advertisements, stating the maximum cost of a call or the maximum price per minute (ppm) to BT customers. They should also make clear that the price of calls on non-BT phone lines will vary and, if space allows, state that callers can check the cost with their phone company. Marketers who feature several 084 or 087 numbers in their advertisements should not mislead customers if the cost of calling the numbers differs. They should state a maximum cost, either per minute or total call, to BT customers.

and the Committee of Advertising Practice (CAP)
http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+on.htm

Quote:

Marketers often use non-geographic numbers, such as 084 and 087, especially if they have, or want to imply, a nationwide presence.  Indeed, many marketers probably sought such numbers in an attempt to be customer-friendly: 0845 numbers were, for example, normally charged at ‘local rate’: BT customers would normally pay the same for a call to an 0845 number as for a call to a local geographic number.  And BT standard tariff customers would have usually paid the same for an 0870 call as for a call to a national geographic number.  Other phone companies have always been able to charge what they like for 084 and 087 numbers; mobile companies, for example, often charged significantly more. But the link between BT’s local and national geographic call price and 0845 and 0870 prices has been steadily eroding.  In the most recent move, in July 2004, BT abolished its standard rate for the vast majority of its customers and moved most of its domestic fixed line customers from the BT standard tariff to the BT Together Option 1 package.  Those customers now pay a slightly higher line rental but, in return, pay the same for all geographic local and national calls: only 5.5p for the first hour in the evening and at weekends and 3p a minute during weekdays. Hardly any BT domestic customers still pay the BT standard local or national call rates for geographic calls and 0845 and 0870 calls.  The charges for most BT domestic customers (who are on a BT Together call package) for 0845 and 0870 calls are very different from what they now pay for geographic calls. OFCOM recently undertook a public consultation on the future of 084 and 087 numbers and has indicated that an initial assessment of responses suggest that consumers and service providers unanimously agree that describing 087 and 084 numbers as ‘national’ and ‘local’ is misleading and most are concerned about how those numbers are advertised.  Consumer responses, especially, suggest confusion about price (confirmed by OFCOM quantitative consumer opinion research) and a feeling of being ripped off. OFCOM has sought help from CAP on how charges to 087 and 084 numbers should be expressed now that the ‘standard’ local and national rates are verging on the notional.  After consultation, the CAP Executive believes that, because of potential consumer confusion, ads should not remain silent on call cost.  CAP understands that BT customers pay no more than 5p a minute (or per call) for calls to 084 numbers and no more than 10p a minute (or per call) for calls to 087 numbers and that those charges are highly unlikely to increase in future.

And to preclude any response along the lines that:
"Well the ASA / CAP rules don't apply because the item referred to is not 'an advertisement'",
I usually add a comment that these rules clearly describe good practice even if the reference is not strcitly an 'advertisement'.

The ASA & CAP clearly indicate that marketers should not rely on BT's (mis-)description of the call rates.

Hope this is of some help.

And this page on the BT site effectively admits that 0845 & 0870 numbers are not distance-related (and hence cannot properly be called 'local' and 'national')


Quote:

UK Call Prices The price per minute varies depending on the time of day and destination of your call. Some BT call prices are related to the distance of the call, but others, such as those to mobile phones or information and premium rate services, are charged at the appropriate rate irrespective of the destination of the call. ... Calls to 0845 and 0870 number ranges are charged at the following rates, shown in pence per minute, ( inc. VAT )

in other words "Calls to 0845 and 0870 number ranges are" not "related to the distance of the call"!
Hence it follows that they cannot properly be called 'local' or 'national'!

Just want to say thanks to the fellow scambusters who kindly offered some 'factoids' that should assist an appropriate response to (at least) this 0870 'disciple' ........(sorry meant 'devious greedio' ) !
 

In my recent conversations (phone) with Clive Hillier at Ofcom who has been in charge of the Ofcom NTS Way Forward consultation he professes to being shocked and appalled to hear there are parts of the BT website that still perpetuate the lie that 0845 is local rate and 0870 is national rate.  This despite the fact that the same lie of Lo-Call and National Call is currently perpetuated by BT for 0845 and 0870 on every single phone bill.  Mr Hillier thinks BT really shouldn't be doing this and it is against the spirit of all Ofcom's advice but like all Ofcom staff they hope that someone else (ICSTIS, Otelo etc) will be wielding the big stick with BT rather than good old Light Touch friends of all telcos Ofcom

You may also be interested in these comments about 084/7 attributed to the CEO of BT Retail, Ian Livingston back in July:-

http://business.scotsman.com/banking.cfm?id=764772005

I suggest you email Mr Livingston ( ian.livingston@bt.com ) and/or his boss and BT CEO Ben Verwaayen ( ben.verwaayen@bt.com ) asking them why BT phone bills and the BT website that sells NTS services to businesses still perpetuates the local/national rate lie on which the whole disgusting 084/7 scam industry is built.

You may also be interested in the below email on the conflict in the way different parts of BT describe 0845 and 0870 calls received in July from John Strutt from General Manager of BT Retail Pricing Policy & Design.  This was as a result of an earlier email to Ian Livingston

As you will see Mr Strutt says my comments "are helpful in identifying areas for improvements on our systems" in line with the views expressed by his boss Mr Livingston.  So strange then that months later my latest BT phone bill still misleadingly calls 0845 Lo-Call or Local Call depending on the number and consistently calls 0870 National Rate.

Me thinks that men from BT speak with many forked tongues according to the way the wind is blowing.

Here is Mr Strutt's email


Quote:

-----Original Message----- From: john.strutt@bt.com [mailto:john.strutt@bt.com] Sent: 25 August 2005 15:57 Cc: gavin.e.patterson@bt.com; wendy.mcmillan-turner@bt.com Subject: Friends and Family eligibility May I thank you again for your time this morning to discuss your helpful comments on BT’s Friends & Family scheme and the eligibility of specialised services numbers. As I explained, your thoughts are very helpful to me in identifying areas for improvement on our systems. I apologise for the poor service you received from the bt.com site when seeking help with identifying eligible number ranges. As we discussed, this is a complex area but this should prompt BT to be even more careful about the level of support provided and clearly this is not the case at the moment. I have already instigated a review of the guidance text and the various website links in order to improve the help given to our customers. I can assure you once more that the nomination system will be applying the eligibility rules correctly. As I mentioned, the definitive guidance on the eligibility of specialised services numbers for Friends and Family is detailed in BT’s Price List, which is accessible via bt.com. For your convenience I have provided a direct link for you: http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/current/docs/Call_Charges.boo/16321.htm. As we discussed, due to regulation of these ‘Number Translation Service’ numbers, terminating operators and their service providers determine the price charged by BT and whether it is to be discounted or not for all number ranges other than 0845 and 0870 (and control of the pricing of these numbers is hotly contested). This leads to a multiplicity of different eligibility options but these are clearly detailed in the price list entry I have referenced. The prices charged for each of the charge groups defined by the associated number range are also detailed in the price list and can be accessed via the following link: http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/current/docs/Call_Charges.boo/00161.htm I was pleased we were able to agree that the NTS regime should be improved to help the customer who originates calls to these numbers. I am sorry that you received erroneous feedback on 0845 eligibility yesterday. As you will see in the price list entries I have referenced, this whole range is eligible for Friends & Family. I will work with our customer service organisation to ensure the guidance provided to them on this issue is improved. Once some of the changes have been instigated, I will contact you again to discuss what we have done as a result of your input. Thank you again for taking the time and trouble to point out these issues to BT. Please feel free to contact me should you have any other questions about BT’s pricing. Regards John Strutt GM BT Retail Pricing Policy & Design