Am I the only person who is totally infuriated at BT's current deliberately malicious policy of now removing CLI information on any call entering its fixed line network that has either originated overseas or that has routed overseas along the way whilst originating in the UK (eg 1899, 18185, Dialwise etc).  Vodafone are passing through all of these CLIs on my Vodafone PAYG phone, even though Caller Display is a free service, but BT is not even though many people still have to pay extra for Caller Display on Fixed Lines (including all those on Wholesale Line Rental products).

As a specific example if I call any person on a BT line from my BT line using 1899 they always now report that they are getting International and Number Withheld.  However if I call my own Vodafone from my BT line using 1899 the CLI is displayed without any problem.

Also when I recently received calls from HP's customer service centre in India their Indian CLI was shown when they called my Vodafone on one occasion but was always displayed as International Withheld on my BT line.

The strange thing is that 6 or 7 years ago I had visitors here from Latvia and one of them called my BT number using his Latvian mobile and I remember being most impressed that back in those days a Latvian mobile company was passing on its CLI and it was being displayed on my Caller Display unit on my BT fixed line.

I have filed this as a complaint with BT High Level Complaints who have just called to tell me I will receive a Deadlock letter that will let me escalate the matter to Otelo.  However they pathetically continue to maintain that the only reason I don't get these overseas CLIs is because the BT network is technically incapable of deciphering this CLI information when the call hits the UK network.  But I maintain that this is a deliberately cynical move by BT to try and make any rival cheap call carrying service in the uk that routes calls outside the uk and back look like an inferior service.  And I do get regular comments from people I call with Caller Display mystified by my number coming up as International Withheld.

I really don't think BT have a leg to stand on but if Otelo is as useless as I suspect them to be they will just sign off this continued customer abuse by BT.  And its not even as though I have a choice of fixed line phone supplier in this area.

Have other members of this forum also observed this deliberate CLI removal by BT and what is your opinion on the matter?

Interestingly, it varies according to time of day in my experience.

During the day, I get 'INTERNATIONAL' on an incoming call from someone using 1899 but, sometimes during the evening and nearly always at the weekend, I get full CLI.

Makes me wonder whether the route 1899 use for their calls is the cause of the technical difficulty rather than deliberate CLI removal by BT.

Heinz wrote on Jan 12^th, 2006 at 12:21pm:

Interestingly, it varies according to time of day in my experience. During the day, I get 'INTERNATIONAL' on an incoming call from someone using 1899 but, sometimes during the evening and nearly always at the weekend, I get full CLI. Makes me wonder whether the route 1899 use for their calls is the cause of the technical difficulty rather than deliberate CLI removal by BT.

I think you will find that in the evening and the weekend that 1899's call routing path does not then take it out of the UK and then coming back in throught BT's international call gateway.  It seems to be that act which presents it to BT as an internationl call and on my small country exchange BT is consistently not presenting all caller IDs that come in through the international call gateway including all genuine calls from overseas.

I did make a call to the burglar alarm/fax secondary line at my mother's house in Bucks befoe I went there at Christmas and when I did 1471 on that line a CLI of 00 44 1306 712900 seemed to be reported (but then I called on a Saturday morning).  So it seems possible that BT's handling of CLIs presented from outside the uk is dependent on the vintage of one's phone exchange.

However a call from 1899 to my Vodafone mobile in the weekday daytime does come up with the normal uk caller ID with no 00 44 on the front or anything and as I said a call from HP's customer service centre in India came up with a CLI with the country code for India whereas several other calls from that customer service centre to my BT line all came up as International Withheld.

I'm still inclined to believe that BT is deliberately trying to scupper their commercial rivals who route calls out of the uk again and back in again by making it seem an inferior product.  Some people do get awfully baffled and puzzled about that International Withheld CLI coming up on their telephone when I call.  I suppose if you are on the BT Privacy free CLI deal BT will think that gives them an exuse for their CLI service being inferior to their rivals such as the mobile phone operators.

In June 2003, I had "unavailable" displayed when a friend on the same "exchange" rang me when his number used to be displayed. He told me that he had just signed up with British Gas. At the time, I spoke to a Mr Dan Lister, Customer Services Manager of BG Communications (0845 0709010) who advised me that not all their sub-contract carriers have the technology in place to support CLI. He went on to say that they were encouraging all their carriers to provide this facility but it is expensive. By having cheaper carriers enables them to offer a cheaper tariff that meets Oftel's requirements. He advised me that it is not a requirement of Oftel for service providers to support CLI. I wrote to Oftel and Christoper Stock replied on 16 June 2003 saying that Condition 19 of the General Conditions of Entitlement (which enter into foce on 25 July 2003) will require communications providers to provide CLI facilities, subject to technical feasibility and economic viability. He underlined the last five words. I do not know if this is still current but it is a very wide back door out of providing CLI. Bill

BillH wrote on Jan 12^th, 2006 at 4:03pm:

By having cheaper carriers enables them to offer a cheaper tariff that meets Oftel's requirements. He advised me that it is not a requirement of Oftel for service providers to support CLI. I wrote to Oftel and Christoper Stock replied on 16 June 2003 saying that Condition 19 of the General Conditions of Entitlement (which enter into foce on 25 July 2003) will require communications providers to provide CLI facilities, subject to technical feasibility and economic viability. He underlined the last five words. I do not know if this is still current but it is a very wide back door out of providing CLI. Bill

This is not the problem here since 1899 calls provide the caller id every single time when calling my Vodafone mobile in the uk.  The problem is with BT purposely removing CLI information on all incoming international calls in to the UK.

I can also prove this using my Riiing Liechtenstein mobile to call my Vodafone where again the Liechtenstein CLI comes up on my Vodafone but as soon as I call the BT number with the Riiing phone it is shown as International Withheld.  As a logical and deductive person it is obvious that it is BT who choose not to provide me with the CLI even though it is being presented with the information by the incoming international network.

As to OFTEL/Ofcom how bloody typical of this utterly useless organisation to let BT charge for a service that they do not have a contractual obligation to actually provide in every single case where they receive the CLI from the incoming telecoms network.

"Can't handle the CLI" indeed. You can bet your bottom dollar that BT know where the call has come from - or Cheltenham might have something to say about it.
However I suspect that it might be originally that the CLI rules forbade foreign displays lest the foreign country did not have Data Protection rules as tight as ours. No, don't laugh.
If they displayed WITHHELD then that is very naughty. UNAVAILABLE only existed for those Scots and rural exchanges that could not then offer the option to withhold the calling line's identity. I do not believe that HSBC etc operates from such an exchange so time to turn off UNAVAILABLE and to allow full incoming CLI.
After all, that would help the citizen-consumer. ;)

A call from 1899 to a BT line definitely comes up with International and then either Unavailable or Withheld - can't remember which and as the International bit of a CLI display message is not stored on the CLI unit I would have to ring a relative and then ask them to report what comes up when I call not having a second BT line here to test on.

As for data protection and all that I just don't believe it as I remember most distinctly that 5 or 6 years some international CLIs did come thorugh.  Totally withholding international CLIs seems to be a more recent BT move.  The person who called me today to say my Complaints  Review case on this was Deadlocked said it was a "Business Decision" not to provide it when I challenged her explanation that BT must get the overseas CLI since Vodafone clearly did.

So I will take this to Otelo to see if they are every bit as totally useless as I would expect a telecoms ombudsman to be who list their main phone numbers as 0845 and then show the words Regional against the geographic number.  Sorry but didn't BT abolish the Regional (as distinct from Local and National) call rate at least 8 to 10 years ago now ::)

Is it possible no caller ID is available from Finarea as some calls are routed via VoIP?

Apologies if it's a naive question - apart from direct-dialling 1899 etc, I haven't used any VoIP services, so I don't know whether or how the number ID would be sent.

andy9 wrote on Jan 17^th, 2006 at 1:13am:

Is it possible no caller ID is available from Finarea as some calls are routed via VoIP? Apologies if it's a naive question - apart from direct-dialling 1899 etc, I haven't used any VoIP services, so I don't know whether or how the number ID would be sent.

No the caller id is being provided by Finarea but the call is routed outside the uk and then back into the uk with the caller id intact but BT has taken a "business decision" to strip all CLIs from incoming international calls to their fixed lines.

If I use my BT line to call any other BT line using 1899 then it is displayed as International Withheld but if I call my uk Vodafone or even my Liechtenstein Riiing mobile from my BT line with 1899 the uk caller id of my BT line is displayed.

When HP's customer service centre in India called my BT line on at least three occasions it was International Withheld but on the one occasion they called my Vodafone the Indian number with Indian country code was displayed.

It is hardly rocket science to conclude that BT is now obstructively withholding all international CLIs outside the uk.  But as I have had caller id for 8 or 9 years my recollection is that International CLIs used to appear in the past on my BT line.

I believe that BT is withholding the CLI of calls that originate in the uk but that route internationally outside it before arriving back in the uk in order to make the phone service offered by its low cost voip competitors seem inferior to its own.  If one looks at some of the lengths BT has gone to in order to stop customers from using CPS with their competitors this conclusion hardly seems unreasonable on my part.

At least when we call a Geographic Number using 1899 rather than the 0870 NGN, it might be more difficult to prove that the call in coming from the UK

A few more tests with my Liechtenstein Riing mobile reveal that when the call is incoming to my uk BT line this in fact shows as International with no number provided.  As compared to my uk Vodafone where the full Liechtenstein number with country code is shown.

After the call has hung up then reviewing this entry on my Cable & Wireless stand alone Caller Display Unit on my BT line shows Scrolling INTERNATIONAL followed by UNAVAILABLE.  On my BT Decor 310 phone it is just International at the time of the call and International afterwards - no Unavailable displayed.    On my BT Studio 100 DECT phones it just shows INTERNATIONA without the final L.

If anyone else using 1899 or 18866 or 18185 wants to PM me we can do some tests to check what is showed when I am called on my BT line by a 1899 customer.

In fact BT has changed how INTERNATIONAL works on Caller Display as it used to show INTERNATIONAL at the time of the call but then change to UNAVAILABLE or WITHHELD afterwards if you viewed your call log.  But still they do not convey the actual overseas CLI - Why?

Whenever I have received a call from Spain on the BT landline, the CLI has always come through, no matter what time of the day.

James Bond

jamesbond wrote on Jan 17^th, 2006 at 12:09pm:

Whenever I have received a call from Spain on the BT landline, the CLI has always come through, no matter what time of the day. James Bond

Could the problem be that out here in the sticks south of Dorking I am on an old early System X or System Y country exchange and that those exchanges are incapable of passing on CLI on international calls (due to the extended length of the international number) while more modern BT town exchanges with hardware and other upgrades can pass through such information.  Although we finally got a fibre optic cable from Dorking installed in mid 2004 most of the other exchange equipment you can see through the windows of the exchange looks positively steam driven.

If I switch line rental to the Post Office (currently offering £50 cash back on line rental on second and third quarterly bills) and move to making all my outgoing calls via voip and/or through dial through providers like www.dialaround.co.uk who the Post Office can't block it would be interesting to challenge them on a Caller Display service I am forced to pay for being deficient in content.

If I call my United Mobile (formerly Riiing) Liechtenstein mobile from my BT line the full uk BT landline number including +44 is displayed.  But call the BT line from the United Mobile number and the Liechtenstein caller id is not displayed.  But call my Vodafone uk mobile from the Liechtenstein Riiing phone and caller id is displayed.

So how come BT can pass a caller id outwards internationally but not allow one to be received inwards.  Of course they have nothing to lose commercially from outgoing CLI information on calls routed on their own network from being passed through whereas they do have something to lose from calls using cheap voip providers on BT lines offering a service that appears to be as good as their own. ;)

I have 2 lines, both with 18866 and 1899 facility.

I have just tried ringing each line, using both 18866 & 1899. The CLI came up on all 4 calls with my 01444 xxxxxx numbers, and no "International" or "Witheld".

mikemundy wrote on Jan 17^th, 2006 at 3:25pm:

I have 2 lines, both with 18866 and 1899 facility. I have just tried ringing each line, using both 18866 & 1899. The CLI came up on all 4 calls with my 01444 xxxxxx numbers, and no "International" or "Witheld".

Its possible that on the same big city exchange Finarea's routing system is intelligent enough to run the call directly without complex international routing coming  back in to the UK.  So if you are on a big city exchange 1899 can probably cut out BT altogether.

Perhaps you can say what kind of area you live in (urban/rural) and even the place if its not confidential.

Ideally though I need another SayNoto0870 person to ring me on their line with 18866 or 1899 from an also small rural exchange to see what happens with that.  The name of Tanllan springs to mind as someone possibly meeting all the relevant criteria.  Anyone else who wants to is welcome to PM me to ask for my phone number.  I can also call you to test what happens in reverse using 1899 and 18185.

I see if I switch to the Post Office I can save £35.00 or so line rental over 6 months (the cash back period) even after paying for Caller Display due to their £50 cashback, which is paid after 3 and 6 months, and their slightly cheaper line rental on top.  My mum could save £50 on her second line for the burglar alarm.  Only snag would be having to switch to Voip for all outgoing call routing (but this would save another £4 a month).  Can anyone recommend a USB Voip handset that they think does a good job.  The ATA options start to look unattractive once one realises that the standalone ATAs don't manage QOS (Quality of Service) and that a decent wireless ADSL modem router with QOS such as those from Billion are about £120.00.  So perhaps just a basic Voip phone handset replacement for outgoing calls, till such time as WiMax gets here (when I can then axe my BT line) would be the answer.

I wonder what happened to PeDaSp.  He used to be rather knowledgeable on all matters Voip.

I live in a rural area, Burgess Hill (01444).
I notice that if foreigners ring me on their mobiles from within the UK, I always get their CLI. I presume that these calls do not route out side the UK.

What is CLI  is it caller identification?

email me, mike@burgess-hill.co.uk with your number, & I will ring you via 1899 & 18866 to see what you get on your Caller Line Identification.

reggie wrote on Jan 20^th, 2006 at 1:00pm:

What is CLI  is it caller identification?

Calling Line Identification.
Caller Display is the "retail" name - and not always the same, because whilst the line's i/d can not change, the display can...

mikemundy wrote on Jan 20^th, 2006 at 3:56pm:

email me, mike@burgess-hill.co.uk with your number, & I will ring you via 1899 & 18866 to see what you get on your Caller Line Identification.

Thanks.  I have emailed you.

mikemundy wrote on Jan 20^th, 2006 at 3:56pm:

email me, mike@burgess-hill.co.uk ...

Mike, I have looked at your website at [url=www.burgess-hill.co.uk[/url]]www.burgess-hill.co.uk[/url] and I see you have a freephone telephone number and 0870 fax number for your B&B. This is very commendable to have a free number, although the 0870 fax somewhat lets the side down.

The numbers are in international format "+44 (0) 8..." and I understand that you can't dial UK 0800 numbers from abroad. They are also charged at higher rates than normal geographical numbers from UK mobiles. May I suggest that you display your geographical number in international format and the 0800 number for those in the UK who wish to use it?

What's more, those on inclusive call packages who get their calls 'free' will not pay to call 01444, just as they wouldn't for 0800, but you always pay to receive calls on 0800 choose where they originate from.

As you might expect, there is an answer to the 0870 fax number. This service is provided by EFax. They receive the fax call, and in exchange for what ever they make for the short time it takes the fax to be transmitted to them, they then send it to me free by email, avoiding the need for me to have a fax machine. Mind you, with nearly everyone on email now, the days of fax are numbered.

I must confess that I hadn't realised that the website manager had used my 0800 number, thanks, I will have it changed to my 01444 number.

I also have an 0870 number. It cost me nothing to get, and I always use it in response to others who have 0870 numbers and need to know my number to ring me back! Interestingly, on some web ordering sites, they will not accept my   0870, even although they themselves use these numbers!

mikemundy wrote on Jan 21^st, 2006 at 4:06pm:

I must confess that I hadn't realised that the website manager had used my 0800 number, thanks, I will have it changed to my 01444 number.

I see it's been changed. Glad to be of help. :)


mikemundy wrote on Jan 21^st, 2006 at 4:06pm:

I also have an 0870 number. It cost me nothing to get, and I always use it in response to others who have 0870 numbers and need to know my number to ring me back! Interestingly, on some web ordering sites, they will not accept my   0870, even although they themselves use these numbers!

That's a good idea, although some frown upon it and see it as simply joining in the 0870 rip-off. Anyway, I imagine that there are some suppliers that you use who use 0845/0870 numbers. I'm sure that you've used the resources on here to try and find alternatives.

Unless time is of the essence, and there is no alternative listed on this site, I write to them. It costs less than a 3 minute 0870 call, and costs them a fortune to write back. I leave my geographic BTphone and email address off my communications , but include my 0870 number.

If everyone wrote, it might help to abolish the 0870 rip off. They hate written mail.
I have noticed that Sky no longer include a postal addreess on their written communications. Maybe we need to list these to encourage people to write. (I am aware of the 0800 route to sky, but prefer to give them written hassle.)

I started using 18866 and then 1899 from my BT line 2 years ago.

I then encouraged friends and family to join up too.

What we found was daytime weekdays on the receiving BT line caller display it would most times display "International" occasionally it would display "0044121nnnnnnn" or "44121nnnnnnn" though once or twice "044121nnnnnnn".

I had occasionally received the CLID on calls from the USA, France and Spain, but mostly "International".

Now I have dropped my landline completely and just use VoIP (using an ATA and my standard phones) I receive the CLID on calls no matter where in the world they come from if the sending network sends the CLID, also means when people use 1899, 18866 or 18185 to call me I get to see there number whether it is 0121nnnnnnn or 0044121nnnnnnn.  Looking at my incoming call logs I can see that Fr 6 Jan 2006 was the last date that daytime calls via 18866/1899 where showing as 0044121.....

BT seem to be universally not passing through the CLI on overseas calls to my landline here both for uk originated calls using 18866, 1899 etc and for genuine international calls originated outside the UK.

Those same genuine international calls show the CLI when they go to my Vodafone.

Conclusion BT is deliberately making no effort to provide the best possible CLI facilities.

I am deadlocked with BT on this issue (official deadlock letter received and none of the letters leading to the deadlock offer any proper information they just lie by claiming the call network handing the call to them did not provide the CLI) and wil be lodging a complaint with Otelo, the telecomminications ombudsman.  There is something in BT's letter claiming this matter may not fall within Otelo's jurisdiction but I cannot imagine why not.

Interesting.  All 3 incoming calls from 1899 users today have carried full (international) CLI.

I wonder whether BT have caved in?

Heinz wrote on Jan 31^st, 2006 at 4:56pm:

Interesting.  All 3 incoming calls from 1899 users today have carried full (international) CLI. I wonder whether BT have caved in?

Perhaps they are anticipating my complaint to Otelo and the fact that they clearly haven't got a leg to stand on over any of the arguments they have so far presented claiming that they don't receive the CLI information from the incoming international network.  But the experience of receiving precisely the same calls from the same international phone number on my Vodafone, where the international CLI is presented clearly shows that BT are not telling the truth. >:(

Interesting this, I have noticed recently that when I receive calls from my home number at my office it shows 'Private', this has only recently happened and I am with OneTel Unlimited. The same is now happening from my O2 mobile to home, but only on one of the O2 mobiles. Having tried it out with various colleagues etc there dosnt seem to be a pattern, some show the full number, some Private. So it would seem it is not only BT removing the CLI.

Flutty wrote on Jan 31^st, 2006 at 8:36pm:

So it would seem it is not only BT removing the CLI.

But the question is why is this happening when surely at this point in the development of telephony the availability of CLI ought to be becoming more and more universal apart from those calls from individuals who choose to actively withhold it.  I think the tendency of many corporate switchboards to Withhold the provision of any CLI is thoroughly reprehensible.  There ought to be rules made against the universal large corporate CLI withhold.

What I so despise about BT is that their useless Complaints Review mechanism refuse to even give me a technically convincing explanation as to why they might be having trouble providing this information.  They simply hide behind dullard customer service advisers who neither care about techncal explanations nor would be capable of providing them in a letter.

The reason that firms withold their CLI is that we would get to know their geographical number, so we would then not ring their premium 0870 number!

Mike    Burgess Hill
With Geographical, 0800 and, for responding to 0870 merchants, an 0870 number.

Interesting, I received a full CLID on BT from a mobile in Jamaica displayed in int format 001876xxxxxxx
Normally I just get Out of Area or Secret

I never understood why they were blocking foreign CLI. Afterall, if you've got the number, you're more likely to call back, so they make more money.
Not that I would use BT for any international calls.

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 6:35pm:

Interesting, I received a full CLID on BT from a mobile in Jamaica 001876xxxxxxx  Normally I just get Out of Area or Secret I never understood why they were blocking foreign CLI.

In my opinion BT have been blocking incoming overseas CLIs in order to make cheaper Voip based call routing competitors look like they were delivering an inferior quality of service.

Having said that the universal withholding of overseas CLIs appears to be specific to the configuration of my exchange or my line as other people do appear to get a 441306xxxxxx CLI from time to time but I always get Overseas Withheld for all calls that present an International CLI, inlcluding calls from other 1899 subscribers.

Even though BT have tried to claim that they don't provide the CLI because they don't get the information they must know this is a lie and cannot be defended with Otelo and are perhaps now working on whatever aspects of their routing systems have been stripping out the overseas CLIs.

The thing is I distinctly remember someone calling me on the same BT landline using an Estonian mobile (they were in the UK at the time) 6 or 7 years ago and at that stage the Estonian mobile number's CLI was presented on my BT landline.  Sometime subsequently BT started stripping a large number of CLIs from calls entering the UK PSTN from overseas.

wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 7:00pm:

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 25th, 2006 at 6:35pm: Interesting, I received a full CLID on BT from a mobile in Jamaica 001876xxxxxxx  Normally I just get Out of Area or Secret... . The thing is I distinctly remember someone calling me on the same BT landline using an Estonian mobile (they were in the UK at the time) 6 or 7 years ago and at that stage the Estonian mobile number's CLI was presented on my BT landline.  Something BT did subsequently started stripping a large number of CLIs from calls entering the UK PSTN from overseas.

Hi NGM. I will be in Geneva in March and so can try half a dozen outgoing Swiss and French networks (special dispensation not to use my Riiiiing SIM when calling you) to call you from my Orange. Perhaps we can then add the results in to your research(es).

Tanllan wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 8:36pm:

Hi NGM. I will be in Geneva in March and so can try half a dozen outgoing Swiss and French networks (special dispensation not to use my Riiiiing SIM when calling you) to call you from my Orange. Perhaps we can then add the results in to your research(es).

I feel confident no CLI will be shown on any of those networks when calling this phone number, unless of course BT have made software changes on my exchange following my complaint.

I already know what happens with my BT landline when calling it from a United Mobile (nee Riiing) SIM card (international and unavailable) so no need to try out that one.