I wrote to Traveline Scotland recently, pointing out the high cost associated with their 0870 service.

They replied:

Traveline Scotland works as a partnership between Transport Operators, who contribute funds to operate the service day to day, Local Authorities, who provide integrated data to populate our journey planner, and the Scottish Executive, who provide capital and development funding. We are also part of a UK-wide network of 12 Traveline services, all using the 0870 608 2 608 number. This number serves the whole of the UK. Wherever you call from you get put through to the local Traveline service. If using a mobile you choose the appropriate geographical area call centre to be put through to from a list. Traveline Scotland’s average call length is currently just over 100 seconds which means that calls cost less than 12p and the information itself is obviously provided free of charge. We also have a website at www.traveline.org.uk where the same journey planning information is available free of charge. I hope this explains the reason behind the national call rather than local tariff. We believe it represents good value for customers.

Hilary Brown
Quality Manager
Traveline Scotland Ltd
Tel 07736 088 069

It seems they take the legitimate view that the call revenue helps fund the service. But, am I not correct that they should quote the call cost in their advertising?

well we shall all call that mobile number for info.

The timetable enquiries number for the Long Island Railrod, New York, "the nations largest commuter railroad", just as a for instance, is 718-217-5477, which, if you don't know, is a geographic number. I would expect this to be standard practice in the United States. In some cases callers are provided with an 800 number. Why are Traveline calling their 0870 number a "national" rather than "premium" tariff? Why do they require to collect a charge for this service? Why must it be collected on a meter? Why do we tend to accept this practice in this country as "legitimate"? And yes, they should publish the call rate.

My point is that right now, throughout the fifty states of the union, if, as is likely, my example is representative, this same service is being provided to the public gratis as just part of what's involved in straight-up customer service. Why can't it be the same here? "US faces collapse of timetabling enquiry services due to cash crisis". Are headlines like these appearing in US papers? Is the system in danger of collapse? Why is the heart of capitalism itself able to draw back from the brink of this petty "nickling and diming to death" of the travelling public, but our supposedly more socially conscious society cannot?

My feeling is that the whole thing stinks, and I don't think it's legitimate. >:(

http://www.citidex.com/1423.htm

longusername wrote on Jan 16^th, 2006 at 7:58am:

The timetable enquiries number for the Long Island Railrod, New York, "the nations largest commuter railroad", just as a for instance, is 718-217-5477, which, if you don't know, is a geographic number. I would expect this to be standard practice in the United States. In some cases callers are provided with an 800 number. Why are Traveline calling their 0870 number a "national" rather than "premium" tariff? Why do they require to collect a charge for this service? Why must it be collected on a meter? Why do we tend to accept this practice in this country as "legitimate"? And yes, they should publish the call rate. My point is that right now, throughout the fifty states of the union, if, as is likely, my example is representative, this same service is being provided to the public gratis as just part of what's involved in straight-up customer service. Why can't it be the same here? "US faces collapse of timetabling enquiry services due to cash crisis". Are headlines like these appearing in US papers? Is the system in danger of collapse? Why is the heart of capitalism itself able to draw back from the brink of this petty "nickling and diming to death" of the travelling public, but our supposedly more socially conscious society cannot? My feeling is that the whole thing stinks, and I don't think it's legitimate. >:( http://www.citidex.com/1423.htm

Thanks for this info - next time I'm in need of a train from LIR, I'll call the 718 number from UK at one-sixteenth of the price demanded by Traveline.

But this does not answer my serious enquiry - Is Traveline under any legal obligation or recommendation from eg. ASA to quote the cost per minute in their advertising?

According to OFCOM,

While 0870 telephone numbers are not regulated as premium rate services, they can cost considerably more to call than geographic numbers. Guidance issued by Ofcom and by the Advertising Standards Authority makes it clear that these numbers should not be described as “national rate”.


Full blurb here...
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/obb/prog_cb/pcb49/?a=87101

scroll down to...
The use of premium rate telecommunications services ( PRTS ) in programming

All 087 and 084 numbers are in fact Premium Rate numbers they are just not Controlled Premium Rate Numbers which fall under the jurisdiction and control of ICSTIS (that is those costing 10p per minute or more and prefixed 09).

Those in any doubt should see Paragraphs 2.1 to 2.4 and especially 2.4 of Ofcom's recently closed consultation - conditions Regulating Premium Rate Services here:- www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/prsconditions/prs.pdf

According to Para 2.4:-

PRS are defined in section 120 (7) of the Act which provides that a service is a premium rate service if:-

(a) it is a service falling within subection (8)

(b) there is charge for the provision of the service

(c) the charge is required to be paid to a person providing an electronic communications service by means of which the service in question is provided; and

(d) that charge is imposed in the form of a charge made by that person for the use of the electronic communications service

So no mention of a PRS having to charge at least 10p per minute or having to be regulated by ICSTIS.  084/7 services are premium rate as also are 070 PNS and 118 directory enquiries services.  They are just not Premium Rate Services controlled by ICSTIS.

Ofcom have been responsible for peddling a most elaborate and contrived lie with the extensive use of their deceitful terms NTS for 084/7 services and PNS for 070 services.   This has no basis in statute and NTS is in fact merely a technical term for a virtual number which redirects a call to an underlying real geographic number or series of geographic numbers or possibly to a voip destination.

I want to share the following exchange of e-mails  I had with Traveline Scotland and ask for any comments:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wrote:

Your website uses an 0870 number for contact purposes.

No doubt the income you generate from this number offsets the cost of providing the service. However, let me draw your attention to a recent ruling of the Committee on Advertising Practice:

http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/advice_online/ad_alerts/Advertising+0845+and+087+numbers.htm
http://www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+on.htm

As you advertise on bus backs, I assume many of the calls to your number are from mobiles which are charged at a rate of up to 40p/min.

Will you now change your advertising and website to comply with CAP's advice?

They replied:

Dear Mr Farci,

I refer to your e mail above and apologise for the delay in replying. A number of changes are proposed for the use of 0870 numbers and I was waiting for clarification on the UK Traveline position before replying. However, that clarification will not be available until end January and the changes proposed by Offcom will not have effect until January 2008 so best that I comment on the situation now.

Website: Our website travelinescotland.com only gives the number and does not make reference to national rates however the Traveline UK website at Traveline.org.uk does make reference to calls being charged at national rates and I have copied this to Mr. Tony Ferguson, the Traveline Director responsible for that site so he can consider what action is needed.

Cost of 0870 numbers- It is true that a small revenue is generated from 0870 numbers although I need to point out this comes nowhere near the cost of providing the service, in Scotland the rebates from 0870 amount to roughly £40,000 per annum whilst the cost of providing the service is over £500,000 per annum. The balance is funded by Public Transport Operators.

Marketing material: Yes, we will take this advice on board. All of our marketing material was available before this advice was known and I have asked our quality manager to dispose of the small amount we hold in stock. Whatever material exists out in the public domain will be replaced during the first quarter of 2008 in line with the advice.

Bus Backs: Our contract for advertising on bus backs has long since expired and although it is unlikely, any new bus back advertising would follow the advise, meantime we will try and establish if any of the four vehicles which carried this advert still show it and ask that it be removed.

Mobiles etc: It may or may not be the case that different telecom provider charge different rates and we have no control over that, no matter which provider is used the rebate coming to us is based on the BT charge to the customer of app.8ppm peak and reducing at evenings and weekends

Finally can I say that we agree that as far as possible these costs should be transparent and any mention of national rate was made in good faith. It would hardly be sensible to cover a cost of over £500,000 per annum to provide a service for public benefit whilst at the same time not being transparent with regard to £40,000 which derives from 0870 here in Scotland.

I hope this helps clarify our position and thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.  

Kind Regards

John Elliot
Chief Executive
Traveline Scotland
john.elliot2@btopenworld.com
07771 647034

~ Edit by Dave: Links corrected

Hi Farci,

It seems that the link you have included is now a dead one. It may be that the page has been withdrawn?

dorf wrote on Dec 30^th, 2006 at 12:12pm:

Hi Farci, It seems that the link you have included is now a dead one. It may be that the page has been withdrawn?

I've corrected those links so they work now.

Not exactly a FoI request, but I am sending a letter asking for there geo numbers, just to find out if they will give them volentatily, I will be sending email + letter on monday, can anyone who wants GN for there region post here and I will make sure it is included.

Has anyone tried with traveline before?

Cheers

Kev

[edit]by Dave:
This thread was originally started in the Freedom of Information section of the forum. It has now been joined to the existing one in the Chat section.[/edit]

canterbury kent please :)

North East England please.

LeeUK wrote on Feb 18^th, 2007 at 12:13pm:

North East England please.

Thats the one I am after, I have south yorksire, 01709 515151 but any others I am not too sure of, when I go to newcastle I have to call 0870 number...

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box changed due to joining threads

WHAT A JOKE.... Can you believe this cr@p...


Quote:

0871 200 22 33 – the new number for Traveline Friday 16 February 2007     A travel information line used by 550,000 people in North East England is getting a new number. 0871 200 22 33 is the new number for Traveline, replacing the existing number which has been in use since the launch of the service in 2000. Last year 550,662 people from the Tees Valley to the Scottish border phoned Traveline for information on public transport services. A single national number puts callers in touch with regional operators able to provide up-to-date information on all stops for public transport, whether it be bus, Metro, train or domestic ferry services. The new number is being introduced to provide continuing good value for callers, with an average 1min 40 sec call from a landline costing 17p. 0871 200 22 33 will run in parallel with the existing national number, 0870 608 2 608, until the latter is retired in January 2008. Steve Noble, Chairman of North East Transport Information Service, said: “We expect a gradual transition to the new number as customers get to know it and see it on publicity material and at bus stops. “A huge number of people use Traveline to get up-to-date information quickly and cheaply, and this new number means we can continue to grow the service we offer.” As well as the phone number Traveline has a website, www.traveline.info, and a Traveline text service which sends bus times direct to your mobile phone. Neither of these services is changing. The change to the telephone number was prompted by Ofcom (The Government’s Office of Communications) making changes to the way 0870 numbers are priced.

[edit]by Dave: Source of this is Nexus website here.[/edit]

LeeUK wrote on Feb 18^th, 2007 at 12:13pm:

North East England please.

Letter going today and will include NE as I am ashamed of them introducing 0871 and saying it is because ofcom are changing how the pricing works... thats just going to confuse people, all for a few quid?!?!

anyways, I didnt think to check at the time, but did you know that NE Traveline is already in the DB, it is  0191 2445695

Not tried it but should work

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box changed due to joining threads

If not too late (was not around at weekend so did not check forum) Essex & Cambridgeshire please.

A list of "codes" that you can use to get put through to individual call centres is here. These codes are for dialling after you're connected to the 0870 number, but illustrate how many different call centres there are.

The Passenger Transport Executive Group website gives more information on PTEs.

Registration information for traveline.org.uk is here:

Quote:

Domain name:         traveline.org.uk     Registrant:         INTELLIGENT TRAVEL SOLUTIONS LIMITED     Registrant type:         UK Limited Company, (Company number: 3826797)     Registrant's address:         CPT THIRD FLOOR         IMPERIAL HOUSE         15-19 KINGSWAY         LONDON         WC2B 6UN         United Kingdom

A check of 192.com for businesses in and around this post code reveals Confederation of Passenger Transport UK (CPT) resides at this address, telephone: 020 7240 3131, fax: 020 7240 6565

These (address, phone and fax) are also the contact details for Bonded Coach Holidays (BCH) and Coach Marque, both travel industry bodies. Also Integrated Ticket Services Ltd.

Who collects the covert revenue from Traveline's 0870?

I can't work out whether the Freedom of Information Act applies to Traveline.

Traveline got a mention in a Parliamentry Update, see here. Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive (GMPTE) were happy to reveal the 0161 number for their service in this FOI response.

This is a totally stupid situation - any other country in the world (well most developed countries) are trying to encourage use of public transport, and provide this sort of information for FREE on 0800 numbers (or equivalents).

I was in Canada recently and when I was waiting for a bus I saw the sign on the bus stop which advised of their 1800 number for public transport enquiries. The fact that we have to dial a premium rate number for the same service really stinks of rip-off Britain.

Alas, this is only one of hundreds of examples of 1800 numbers in North America, and 084/7 ones here.

>:(
MS

ms01 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2007 at 1:58pm:

This is a totally stupid situation - any other country in the world (well most developed countries) are trying to encourage use of public transport, and provide this sort of information for FREE on 0800 numbers (or equivalents).

It is an inevitable consequence of the numbering framework established by the crooked regulator whereby the public has to call what will shortly be defined as a true premium rate telephone number in order to obtain essential information relating to public transportation.

Instead of paying around 1.5p/min at a weekend to call Traveline on the 0870 number, the public now has to pay 10p/min instead. Progress I guess!

Those of us who live overseas are well and truly shafted by these idiotic organizations that come up with these bright ideas.

Many more organizations will now follow in the weeks and months ahead, replacing their 0870 numbers with 0871 and 0844. Why? Because the idiotic Ofcom encourages them to do so.

This guy may well be responsible for this stupidity and I'm sure he'd be pleased to receive any comments:

Tony Ferguson
Project Director traveline
Confederation of Passenger Transport
Imperial House
15-19 Kingsway
London WC2B 6UN

On the other hand, he's probably swanning around in his stretch limo, and has no need to call Travelextortion line.

What a shambles.

The Traveline project includes the following boidies:

<<Who co-ordinates the traveline project?

The project’s Advisory Group involves representatives of

Confederation of Passenger Transport (CPT)
Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC)
Local Government Association (LGA)
Confederation of Scottish Local Authorities (CoSLA)
Transport for London (TfL)
Passenger Transport Executives’ Group (PTEG)
Association of Transport Co-ordinating Officers (ATCO)
Welsh Assembly Government (WAG)
Scottish Executive (SE)
Department for Transport (DfT)
Translink>>

In a related move, GMPTE (which for some time has been phasing out all mention of its geographical travel enquiry number 0161 228 7811 on timetables, bus stops, etc in favour of the Traveline 0870 (soon to be 0871)) has now introduced an 0871 number instead of 0161 for paper copies of timetables:

http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?category_id=102784

This is how GMPTE (quite dishonestly, in my view) replied to my complaints last year about the phasing out of publicity for the 0161 number in favour of Traveline:

January 2006 Our Ref: CR8248


RE: - 0870 traveline number

Thank you for your e-mail dated 09/01/06:  to answers to your questions are addressed below:

1. 0870 608 2 608 and 0870 241 2 216 (the equivalent minicom service) are the only telephone numbers that GMPTE use that has a prefix of 0870 or 0845.  You can dial 0161 228 7811 to access GMPTE public transport information.  This is a local number that gives people access to Greater Manchester information at normal local, national or international call rates depending on where they call from.

2. The advantage of the 0870 number is that it enables one number to be used nationwide rather than have a number of local numbers. GMPTE is part of the national Traveline service that uses the 0870 number.

The national service was set up to meet national government policies to create a single source of local transport information on a national basis. The 0870 number also enables calls to be forwarded to another region to complete the local transport information element of long distance journeys.

The relevant policies are

* "Getting timetable and connection information is vital for many passengers. We are keen to see a national integrated journey timetable set up. The best way forward is to develop a framework, which builds on information already available and draws on new information schemes as they become available. Passengers would access information through one enquiry point, even though information would be drawn from different sources." (White Paper New Deal for Transport July1998 page 52 para 3.73)  

* "Better arrangements at local level are essential to develop a national public transport information system, building on voluntary collaboration between various parties. The aim is for passengers to have easy access to comprehensive information on all modes, including rail, bus, coach and metro, from a single telephone call. "(DETR Integrated Transport "From Workhorse to Thoroughbred" Mar 99 page 32).

* "Our aim is for a public transport system to be systematically extended across the country by 2000. The initial focus will be on timetable information, but the framework will be developed with the aim of introducing information on fares."(Transport White Paper para 3.74)

3. GMPTE receives no rebate for calls on the 0870 numbers below. All rebates are ploughed back into running the service and developing new products for the delivery of information services, such as the internet Journey Planner (gmpte.com), this is an area that is steadily increasing in demand and the costs for this are far cheaper than any telephone charge, if we were to look for funding to develop such products then it is possible it would be from levy funding that we all already pay for through our local charges  

4. British Telecommunications plc is the network provider for 0870 608 2 608 and 0870 241 2 216 (minicom service).

5. We are a local government organisation. The "Central Office of Information" gives guidance to Central Government and public bodies. We have not seen this COI advice before and not discussed it within GMPTE. However, we believe that we serve the public well by giving them the choice of phoning either the national number (0870 608 2 608) or the local number (0161 228 7811); about 70% of our calls for public transport information are on the local number. Through having the two services, we believe we meet the COI guidance.  The Department for Transport are aware of the use of the 0870 number and have raised no objections to it.  

Yours sincerely,

Gary Hawthorne
Information Manager

The Traveline website now gives the new 0871 10p/min number:

http://www.traveline.org.uk/images/toplogo53tallanim.gif

No wonder they have a smiling logo with that amount of income.
But again I question why they have to be dishonest about revenue share. Surely PRS 09X would be quite in order for providing a service.

This was the rather patronising reply I received from Traveline's exploiter-in-chief after I complained about international access:


<<
I would be grateful if you could provide me with your telecomms provider in the USA.

We had understood that all were OK for 087 numbers.

Out of interest, why phone when you can use our internet service?

Kind Regards

Tony
>>

I have yet to repond mainly due to the utter cluelessness of these people and their inability to understand universal access to non-geographic numbers. The last line in the reply really sums up these arrogant and inept individuals and their business knowledge and ethics. If he thinks that 'all is OK for 087 numbers', then he clearly hasn't read the Ofcom documents relating to international access to 087. I will point him in the right direction, assuming he can a) use a computer and b) read - assumptions that may turn out to be incorrect.

Just spotted the bus shelters in Glasgow are gradually changing over to advertise the 0871 service, with no pricing advice.

My latest bus timetable has the 0871 number listed several times, with no pricing info - surely this can't be right. The bus company in question is Arriva Scotland West Ltd, and the timetable dated 5/3/07.

EDIT - and www.travelinescotland.com has the following: "Traveline also provides a telephone service available by calling 0871 200 22 33*. Lines are open from 7am to 10pm 7 days a week. Calls are charged at national call rate." This can't be allowed surely?

russellelly wrote on May 6^th, 2007 at 12:10pm:

EDIT - and www.travelinescotland.com has the following: "Traveline also provides a telephone service available by calling 0871 200 22 33*. Lines are open from 7am to 10pm 7 days a week. Calls are charged at national call rate." This can't be allowed surely?

These companies and organisations cannot help but persist with their lies. There is no requirement for pricing information for 0871 numbers and some low priced 09 numbers. But this is misleading.

There is no one body that this sort of misleading pricing needs reporting to. Advertising Standards Authority covers printed articles in magazines/newspapers and TV adverts (not sure about radio), but not websites. Ofcom often passes the buck and says "Nothing to do with us."

In short, this is the whole reason for these numbers being used so widely; because people aren't aware of the price. Couple that with people not knowing the price compared to normal 01/02 numbers and further add the fact that charges to 01/02 numbers from mobiles are frequently 5 or 10 p per minute or more and there's no wonder that people may think that 10p/min is a fair deal.

Dave wrote on May 6^th, 2007 at 1:00pm:

russellelly wrote on May 6th, 2007 at 12:10pm: EDIT - and www.travelinescotland.com has the following: "Traveline also provides a telephone service available by calling 0871 200 22 33*. Lines are open from 7am to 10pm 7 days a week. Calls are charged at national call rate." This can't be allowed surely? These companies and organisations cannot help but persist with their lies. There is no requirement for pricing information for 0871 numbers and some low priced 09 numbers. But this is misleading.

Thanks for that. I had no idea that there wasn't a requirement for a price next to an 0871 - that's really shocking.

If you look at the footer, it actually says the call is charged at 10p a minute from BT landlines. Presumably it is a leave-over from when it was the 0870 number, and someone has forgotten to update it (despite it being wrong anyway...)

jgxenite wrote on May 6^th, 2007 at 8:14pm:

If you look at the footer, it actually says the call is charged at 10p a minute from BT landlines. Presumably it is a leave-over from when it was the 0870 number, and someone has forgotten to update it (despite it being wrong anyway...)

0871 2xx xxxx numbers are charged at 10p/minute at all times from BT residential landlines (g7 rate).

http://www.downloads.bt.com/pricing/SpecialisedNos.pdf

Heinz, I wasn't debating that, merely saying that the footer did actually say it was charged at 10p a minute, not national rate as it says in the body of the page.