..think they are so clever.

Big local media splash about their new 0845 number:

http://www.northants.police.uk/default.asp?action=article&ID=10197

website and posters describe it as 'local rate'.

No consideration for mobile/overseas users.

Usual stuff

What I find most devious is that they say calls are charged at the "NORMAL local rate".
If that is not totally misleading then what is??
Trust your local police?

Surrey Police have recently removed all reference to the words Lo-Call or Local Call against the 0845 number shown on their website.

Suggest you draw Northamptonishire Police's attention to all the ASA guidance about not making claims that 0845 is Local rate.  If Surrey Police have published any brochures with this in you can log it as a formal complaint at www.asa.org.uk  Unfortunately you can't complain about stuff on websites to the ASA and have to take that up with trading standards.

The ASA have found in favour of my complaint agains Vodafone in January Vodafone Choice magazine that their 0870 number was charged at "local" rates.  Vodafone have been slapped on the wrist and told if they are found doing it again a full blown investigation in to their internal compliance procedures on advertising will be launched (apparently my complaint is also likely to mean an internal  memo from the marketing director at Vodafone to all staff warning them off making such claims again).  Apparently they don't like this to happen as it brings their name in to disrepute.  Or so the ASA tells me.  As for fines old boy well its just not done you know. ;)

firestop wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2006 at 8:07am:

What I find most devious is that they say calls are charged at the "NORMAL local rate".

Doesn't matter they are still in breach of ASA codes and Ofcom guidance to make any claims that 0845 is a Local rate call.  Normal doesn't help at all.  And anyhow the 0845 is not the NORMAL local rate.  The BT Option 1 rate is and that's a completely different rate off peak.

If they said it was Lo-Call then ironically that technically speaking would be true as the useless shower at Ofcom still haven't taken action to force BT to stop the use of this brand name with 0845 numbers.

Freddie wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2006 at 10:29pm:

..think they are so clever. Big local media splash about their new 0845 number: http://www.northants.police.uk/default.asp?action=article&ID=10197 website and posters describe it as 'local rate'. No consideration for mobile/overseas users. Usual stuff

CRETINS.

These morons never learn. The events of last July should show the futility of using these numbers, yet the blind follow the blind, with the stupid (Ofcom) refusing to intervene because their hols in the Caribbean would be in jeopardy. What a crooked lot these people are. Unethical *and* idiotic.

Needless to say, and when I have time, I will now be writing to the Chief Cont of Northants to point out what a complete idiot he/she is.

idb wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2006 at 10:20pm:

Needless to say, and when I have time, I will now be writing to the Chief Cont of Northants to point out what a complete idiot he/she is.

Unfortunately many Chief Constables seem to assign correspondence to their public email address to some lowly correspondence sergeant for reply.  Like all these faceless organisations I'm sure he does get a report on the total number of complaints to him per quarter or per annum on any one topic.  So if lots of people email or write on the issue it will register.

The problem with the Police is they always have the attitude they are right and that anyone who challenges what they do is a sinister troublemaker and malcontent.  And as we have seen with poor Mr Menenzes they have a frightening amount of power to manipulate the facts to try and divert criticism away from themselves even when they have made a gross error of jusgement.  County Councillors get some say as a load of them are on the Police Authority but we lowly district councillors don't get a look in there.  Anyone who lives in Northampton writing to a County Councillor who is on Northamptonshire Police Authority woule be a good idea.

If Northamptonshire County Council have not had an 0845 up to now to bring it in at this point shows total braindeadedness when even the useless Pito who advises them and your bete noir Mr Philip Webb know perfectly well by now how unhappy the public is about these numbers.

If the Police want their 101 numbers then why do they propose launching these number too????

I was going to post on this when Northants Police' propaganda rag (I mean newsletter) landed on my doormat last month with a big article for they're new money spinner.
See it here: http://www.northants.police.uk/pages/homebeat/Jan06_Page1.pdf
Also on they're website http://www.northants.police.uk/default.asp?action=article&ID=10197

I have now put a complaint in on the ASA website which they will deal with as this drivel has appeared in print.

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 6^th, 2006 at 7:35pm:

I have now put a complaint in on the ASA website which they will deal with as this drivel has appeared in print.

Your complaint to the ASA will be very effective if they have made a clear misleading claim that the calls are at Local rate.  The ASA told me that my complaint about Vodafone Choice's claim that 0870 was "charged at your telephone providers local rates" was the first complaint that had been made to them about a clear cut breach of their new rules on 084/7 call prices.  So taking the trouble to make a complaint has much more impact with the guilty party and the ASA than you might think.  ASA also said that they thought most advertisers were well aware of new rules which is why there had not been a flood of complaints as since the change since most advertisers had changed the terms they now use.

It will then be an open and shut case that the ASA will refer them to their recent guidances for advertisers and that they cannot go on calling it local rate and must state 3p or 4p per minute as the maximum rate a typical BT customer may pay.  Its a rather contentious area as to whether they quote the 3p or 4p per minute fee as only BT Light User and In Contact Plus customers pay 4p per minute but there again BT Options 1, 2 and 3 are all discount schemes.  With 0870 the issue doesn't arise as 7.51p per minute (BT Together rate) and 7.91p per minute (Light User rate) all round up to 8p per minute.

The ASA assure me that complaints that they rule favourably on (as they almost certainly will with yours) result in a very firm letter to the head marketing person at the organisation concerned pointing out why there communciation is in error and why they cannot go on describing the number this way - if the company or organisation does it again and there is another complaint there is a full blown ASA investigation and hearing on the matter.

I suggest that the response to your complaint letter is circulated to members of the Police Authority if possible.  Or are you a serving Police officer in which case that may be a tricky thing for you to do.

no i'm not a copper & I'll be lobbying my MP & councillors to get the Police to keep open at least one landline number after the cut-over period for access from mobiles, international & us.

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2006 at 5:41pm:

no i'm not a copper & I'll be lobbying my MP & councillors to get the Police to keep open at least one landline number after the cut-over period for access from mobiles, international & us.

Their main previous 01 number will almost certainly continue to operate.  Or at least that has been the case with Surrey Police who adopted their - 0845 number three or four years ago.

it states in their propaganda that the existing number will be phased out when the public "become used to the new number".

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2006 at 5:52pm:

it states in their propaganda that the existing number will be phased out when the public "become used to the new number".

By which time Northamptonshire Police will have been swallowed up in one of Charles Clarke's super-force amalgamations so it's all a bit academic anyway.

Heinz wrote on Feb 7^th, 2006 at 8:54pm:

By which time Northamptonshire Police will have been swallowed up in one of Charles Clarke's super-force amalgamations so it's all a bit academic anyway.

And I will still quite reasonably expect to be able to contact my police force at the cost of a  normal geo number, whether or not my call then gets forwarded to a call centre in Glasgow or Uttar Pradesh.

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2006 at 5:52pm:

it states in their propaganda that the existing number will be phased out when the public "become used to the new number".

If you call Surrey Police and tell them you called on their Guildford geographic number they always maintain it is about to be withdrawn.  This is utter twoddle as the 0845 is only a Number Translation Service and has to be redirected to a real phone line.

Saying that the old geographic number will soon be withdrawn is on the standard propaganda training sheets of the scam telcos who sell these 084 and 087 numbers.  People who work in call centres always mindlessly quote propaganda because anyone who doesn't follow the script or has an independent minded thought of their own is soon fired for gross misconduct ::)

I've now written to the Chief Constable of Northants with copies to the Police Authority, the Home Office, various Ofcom bods, and to my MP, assuming the mail address is correct. I will report back if and when anything happens. I have asked that the discrimination against callers from overseas is ended by ensuring a geographic number is published with equal prominence to the shown rip-off number.

idb wrote on Feb 8^th, 2006 at 1:58am:

I've now written to the Chief Constable of Northants with copies to the Police Authority, the Home Office, various Ofcom bods, and to my MP, assuming the mail address is correct.

But have you and other people on this site also lodged a formal complaint with the ASA that it breaches their Stop The call Confusion, Hanging on The Telephone and other recent guidances on how the cost of an 0845 call must be directly described in a leaflet or a magazine?  Apparently the ASA have hardly had any complaints under the guidance (mine against Vodafone over their incorrect claims that 0870 was charged at "local call rates" in Vodafone Choice magazine was their first the ASA say).  The more complaints the ASA receive the harder they are likely to beat Northants Police's knuckles by pointing out to them how many members of the public have been upset.

You can lodge your complaint with the ASA at www.asa.org.uk/asa/how_to_complain/complaints_form/

Whilst I agree with the points about the ASA, I'll leave that to others as the ASA is essentially a UK-centric organization. It may well be that I can lodge a complaint, however I suspect it would be better placed if such a complaint came from a resident.

wrote on Feb 8^th, 2006 at 2:06am:

You can lodge your complaint with the ASA at www.asa.org.uk/asa/how_to_complain/complaints_form/

And, in fact, this complaints form appears to require a UK address. I'm sure I could enter a foreign address, but I'd bet that the complaint would get filed as trash.

idb wrote on Feb 8^th, 2006 at 2:25am:

And, in fact, this complaints form appears to require a UK address. I'm sure I could enter a foreign address, but I'd bet that the complaint would get filed as trash.

I don't see that they can stipulate where you live.

The only requirement is that you have read the publication and been misled by it.

The ASA are very methodical and organised in always responding properly to any communication.   If they can't accept your complaint they will write to tell you.

Why not give it a go.

I was under the impression that I needed an actual publication 'advertising' the misleading info rather than a web page with misleading info in order to make a complaint.

idb wrote on Feb 8^th, 2006 at 2:49am:

I was under the impression that I needed an actual publication 'advertising' the misleading info rather than a web page with misleading info in order to make a complaint.

Post 1 on Page 1 of this thread refers to Posters, which would come within the ASA's jurisdiction for Complaints.  But I suppose we would need the person starting this thread to tell us where those Posters are published or what form they take to make a valid complaint the ASA can follow up.

I'm beginning to wonder if the reason the ASA reply by post to complaints filed on their website is so that they can sniff out the uk non residents?
;)

Not all posters it seems - I was unaware, until I contacted the ASA about a poster for National rail Enquiries 0845 number (local rate...) that it is was not covered because it was advertising a service provided by the rail companies jointly. It didn't seem to matter that the rail company whose logo was on the poster was the organisation I actually complained about. I'm still confused by that decision!

idb wrote on Feb 8^th, 2006 at 2:49am:

I was under the impression that I needed an actual publication 'advertising' the misleading info rather than a web page with misleading info in order to make a complaint.

It has appeared in print
As I mentioned in a previous post, this has been printed in Northants Police Home Beat publication which is distributed to homes in Northamptonshire. See http://www.northants.police.uk/pages/homebeat/Jan06_Page1.pdf for a copy of January's front page.
It's printed by Intermedia Corporate Services Ltd. with Milton Keynes phone number.
I kept hold of a copy precisely because this new number was front page splash. I normally put it in the bin TBH.

BTW, I got a reply by email from one member of the Police Authority. He says he'll relay a response to me when he puts the points to the police.

The original geo number which no one has mentioned yet is Northampton 01604 700700
or Wellingborough 01933 440333
Corby 01536 400400
Daventry 01327 300300
Kettering 01536 411411 all answered in the same contact centre as far as I can gather.

Do you know if the police forces take a revenue share of non geos to help towards their increasing costs caused by the rising number of calls they have to make to mobiles owned by the public?

How do so many area different area codes get answered in the same contact centre anyway?

sixpence wrote on Feb 10^th, 2006 at 1:23am:

Do you know if the police forces take a revenue share of non geos to help towards their increasing costs caused by the rising number of calls they have to make to mobiles owned by the public?

That's why we pay a large chunk of our council tax to the police authority. Precisely so they can provide a service. Mobile termination charges are as evil as non-geographic numbers in my opinion. Two wrongs don't = right.

To find out for sure where the revenue goes would mean a FOI request. you may even find that it is their telecom supplier that is taking all the revenue.



sixpence wrote on Feb 10^th, 2006 at 1:23am:

How do so many area different area codes get answered in the same contact centre anyway?

Simply by programming the appropriate telephone exchanges to route the calls in a certain way.
Exactly the same way as multiple Non-Geographic numbers are answered in single or multiple locations. It's a myth that geo numbers are inflexible created by the telephone carriers most likely simply because it's not as lucrative for them as Geo numbers.

It's as simple as me signing up for a VOIP service & having multiple geographic numbers in multiple locations or even countries. Telephone numbers do not have to physically exist. They can simply exist in software on a telephone exchange which may be programmed to handle calls to that number in many ways.

Latest
I received a response from ASA saying that they can't investigate because it appears in a newsletter providing public information rather than advertising a product.

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2006 at 1:42pm:

Latest I received a response from ASA saying that they can't investigate because it appears in a newsletter providing public information rather than advertising a product.

Surely since the telecoms service running the number make a profit on every call receive and/or pass some of that profit on to Northamptonshire Police the item in the newsletter does in fact constitute an advertisement.

Say you are not happy with their decision and ask what their escalation procedure is at the ASA for reviewing the way they have interpreted your complaint.

I intend to.

Isn't Google great? http://www.windsor-telecom.co.uk/testimonials.htm

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2006 at 6:03pm:

I intend to.  Isn't Google great? http://www.windsor-telecom.co.uk/testimonials.htm

It seems the Chief Constable of Northants Police is Smart by name but not by nature.

And Windsor Telecom are some of the biggest rogues unhung in the NGN industry!  How did a Police force end up in bed with them. :o

Windsor even call 0871 National Rate  >:(
Imagine the spin they give the Police to repeat to the public  :'(

"When the time came to set up a new joint project with the Fire Brigade and the County Council, ("PROJECT ELVIS"), we had a further requirement of a memorable number for members of the public to report abandoned and arson damaged vehicles. Again Windsor Telecom exceeded our expectations and were able to provide an extremely memorable number ending '999' for this project."

Hmm ELVIS has left the building, but left his rip-off script.

mc661 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2006 at 11:00pm:

Hmm ELVIS has left the building, but left his rip-off script.

I was beginning to think you had left the building mc661.  Its good to know that you are still with us.

wrote on Feb 11^th, 2006 at 6:34pm:

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 11th, 2006 at 6:03pm: I intend to.  Isn't Google great? http://www.windsor-telecom.co.uk/testimonials.htm It seems the Chief Constable of Northants Police is Smart by name but not by nature.

Dont overpromote him Smart is only a Chief Inspector. Peter Maddison is the Chief Constable.You can contact  him here http://www.northants.police.uk/survey/askchief_form.htm

A Response to my email from Northants Police,
Please see their response below, I have already noted a few points that need clarifying, for example: "our new -8453 number is indeed charged at local rates"

However on the plus side: "whilst we do not have much communication from overseas via the telephone (most comes via the website), we will publish a non 08453 DDI telephone number to field those calls." & they've added this to their webpage:    
"Disclaimer, Calls to 0845 numbers from a fixed line are charged to a maximum of 4p per minute. Network Tariffs apply when calling 0845 numbers from a mobile phone." though they still say on the same page that it's charged at normal local rates.

Your views please...



Quote:

Dear Mr **** Your communication relating to our new 08453 has been passed to me by the Chief Constable to investigate and respond to. Thank you very much for raising your concerns with the Police Authority, and for the useful links which you sent. As a result of your comments and advice we have amended our publicity which should implemented on our website imminently. We are committed to the non-emergency number, as within the county it ensures that callers can call from landlines at local rate. We have checked with the local telephony service providers for landline base phones and they have confirmed that our new -8453 number is indeed charged at local rates. Our view on mobile telephony is that the caller has the choice of contacting the police via a number of media (landline, mobile, email, and even text - something we are investigating) and so when ringing on non-emergency business, it is down to the caller to make the choice of landline or mobile, and a note will be added to publicity to warn callers that charges from mobile networks may vary. However, we have also contacted the five main mobile cellular telephony providers and have confirmed that the maximum/worst case scenarios for charges to call an 08453 number are as follows:    * Three Mobile = 15p /min flat charge    * Orange = 10p/ min - 35p/ min (dependant on tariff)    * Vodaphone = 12p/ min - 15p/ min    * O2 = 8p/ min    * T- Mobile - 10p/ min - 40p/ min (pay as you go being the maximum)    * Virgin - 10p/ min - 15p/ min We do not consider these to be any more prohibitive than other choices offered to mobile telephone users. You query whether this 08453 provision makes profit for the police. I can confirm that no revenue is raised by introduction of this number, although there may be in-house savings in due course as we will be able to release costly direct dial number rentals. So it isn't the case that there is a payment to the police to profit from the use of the 08453 number. That information will also be noted on our website or material publicising the number, so that this suspicion is allayed. You made a very good point regarding the small print on some of our 08453 material. We have looked at this and I confirm that the ASA-recommended small print will be added to our website and publicity material. Finally, whilst we do not have much communication from overseas via the telephone (most comes via the website), we will publish a non 08453 DDI telephone number to field those calls. In closing, I advise you that the local introduction of this number is in advance of talks in hand to introduce a national non-emergency number over the next five or so years, currently being trialled in some parts of the country - a venture which will involve other public agencies so that if a call does not relate to a police matter, it can be directly fielded to a colleague from another agency who can deal with it. It's early stages as yet, but this is clearly the way that our communications are going. There is also a huge thirst to contact us via internet and we are investing in exploiting that facility too. We have checked a number of police websites to check our practice against theirs, and we don't appear to be at odds with them. Introducing this 08453 number was all about making contact with us easier and simpler. Our problem is that we are served by a number of telephone exchanges, and it was simply impossible for our telephony provider to offer us the single number you suggested, in a way which would make it compatible with those various exchanges. This is why the 08453 number is being phased in before the older DDI numbers are phased out. I hope that this assures you of our resolve to respond to some of the very valid points you made. Thank you for that opportunity Yours sincerely **** Staff Officer to Chief Constable Landline 08543 700700 (ext 2***)

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2006 at 5:56pm:

"whilst we do not have much communication from overseas via the telephone (most comes via the website), we will publish a non 08453 DDI telephone number to field those calls."

Now could it perhaps be that most of their overseas customers contact them via the website precisely because of the exorbitant cost of calling them on your mobile if you are overseas and your house is burgled.  Far cheaper after all to drop in to a web cafe for half an hour than to call for 25 minutes at up to £1 a minute. :o


Quote:

Our view on mobile telephony is that the caller has the choice of contacting the police via a number of media (landline, mobile, email, and even text - something we are investigating) and so when ringing on non-emergency business, it is down to the caller to make the choice of landline or mobile    * Three Mobile = 15p /min flat charge    * Orange = 10p/ min - 35p/ min (dependant on tariff)    * Vodaphone = 12p/ min - 15p/ min    * O2 = 8p/ min    * T- Mobile - 10p/ min - 40p/ min (pay as you go being the maximum)    * Virgin - 10p/ min - 15p/ min.

But there is no choice about calling them using the most efficient call tariff and routing path if they fail to publish a geograpic phone number is there now. ::)

And in the above tariff listing they completely fail to mention that all the above companies completely exclude 0845 from their bundled inclusive minutes (apart from O2) and also from deals like Vodafone Stop the Clock and Vodafone Passport.  Still they maintain it is no worse than calling an 01 or 02 number from a mobile.  Quite Incredible.  It hardly helps with the traditional view that many of those working in the uk Police force are of somewhat limited intelligence. :'(

Never mind the fact that some of those mobile to NGN rates are actually wrong.

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2006 at 6:58pm:

Never mind the fact that some of those mobile to NGN rates are actually wrong.

Surely you aren't suggesting that members of her majesty's constabulary would ever manufacture evidence? ;)

*cough* herts *cough*

wrote on Feb 24^th, 2006 at 7:51pm:

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 24th, 2006 at 6:58pm: Never mind the fact that some of those mobile to NGN rates are actually wrong. Surely you aren't suggesting that members of her majesty's constabulary would ever manufacture evidence? ;)

No comment, sir!

I have an alibi, if needed, that can be contact on 0871x at the cost of a local call!   ;D

They have now added this to the website "If you are telephoning Northamptonshire Police from abroad please dial +44 1604 888007"
But still say 0845 "calls are charged at normal local rates"

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 27^th, 2006 at 8:04pm:

They have now added this to the website "If you are telephoning Northamptonshire Police from abroad please dial +44 1604 888007".  But still say 0845 "calls are charged at normal local rates"

May I suggest you quote to Northants Police that they may be in breach of various ASA guidances, Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 and Best Practice guidances from Ofcom.

See  

Para 1.3 Page 1 of www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+ on.htm

and

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&; amp;SESSION=875

and

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+prov iders.htm

and Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own district council where we agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

Way back in the thread you'll see. ASA won't investigate, they say it's public info not advertising.
The only reason they've changed the website at all is because of my complaint pointing out ASA guadance. But because they're tels supplier calls it local rate they insist on leaving that on the page even while adding the price from BT which isn't local rate.

Then place more reliance on the above guidance from Leicestershire Trading Standards and this one I have just found from East Sussex Trading Standards on 0845 and 0870 numbers:-

www.eastsussex.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/735C4641-4E0A-48DA-BA19-8A5007CE0AB6/0/BSN0800numbers.pdf

Also the paragraph entitled Consumer Protection on Page 3 of this ICSTIS document.

www.icstis.org.uk/pdfs/ConsultRespNTS1105.pdf

Cheers NGM.
I have now emailed them again citing further Legal & regulatory implications of failing to display correct pricing info for 0845 numbers as well as making an example of your council who saw the light.
I also pointed out that the glowing endorsement of Winsdor Telecom by their Chief Inspector will not sit well with the public when that very same company are in breach of CAP guidelines.

saynonto0871 wrote on Feb 28^th, 2006 at 8:46pm:

Cheers NGM. I have now emailed them again citing further Legal & regulatory implications of failing to display correct pricing info for 0845 numbers as well as making an example of your council who saw the light.

I suggest you also copy in all the County Councillor members of the Police Authority since they are much more susceptible to public pressure than Policemen who have a habit of suggesting that anyone who questions police actions is some kind of dangerous deviant.

They are all conveniently listed here and this includes the personal email addresses for more than half of them:-

www.northants.police.uk/asp_default.asp?action=article&ID=2158#3

You can get the official County Council email addresses for each of the remaining ones who do not have an email address shown on the Northants Police Authority website here:

www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/Democracy/councillors/details/?complist=all

Don't worry, I've got them already

UK Info v11 offers this info

NORTHAMPTONSHIRE POLICE
THRAPSTON ROAD
FINEDON
WELLINGBOROUGH

01933 681464

yes and.....?

I assume that last question was aimed at me.
Well we are all here to find ways around the various rip off numbers, and it's down to all of us to share the information where it will help others.
Your post, saynonto0871, on 08 Feb included the following...

The original geo number which no one has mentioned yet is Northampton 01604 700700
or Wellingborough 01933 440333
Corby 01536 400400
Daventry 01327 300300
Kettering 01536 411411

As you can see, my offering differs from the information you supplied. As such, I am sharing it so we have another way in.

Sorry I got the impression you hadn't read the thread properly
There's no need now really as they are supplying an international access no +44 1604 888007 it's on their website.
They have now, finally removed reference to local rate on their website after my last email to them pointing out that Trading Standards  consider this description illegal.

saynonto0871 wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2006 at 7:35pm:

They have now, finally removed reference to local rate on their website after my last email to them pointing out that Trading Standards  consider this description illegal.

Well it seems that persistence pays off then.  But I wonder how many call centre staff still tell customers "its only charged at the BT local rate sir" if challenged on their use of an 0845 phone number.

Response received earlier today wrt my compliaint regarding the use of 0845:

<<
The Chief Constable has asked me to look into the issues you raised in your email of 24 February. Thank you for raising your concerns. I will not respond to your accusations of 'cluelessness' or 'incompetence'. Frankly such comments devalue the dialogue, are offensive, and distract from some of the valuable issues you have raised.

The introduction of the 08453 is predominantly about serving the people of Northamptonshire. Because of changes in technology, policing and centralisation of control rooms over the years, the Force had a legacy of over 4 different main numbers from different exchanges. It was technically impossible to introduce the kind of systems now required of us without a single number, and we did not want those people in the county living outside the 01604 range to suffer hikes in phone call charges to us. In addition, we were at our capacity for direct dial numbers. We also had to introduce a single number to comply with the Government's quite proper aspiration that within the next three years there would be a national single non-emergency number (SNEN). This moves us toward that.

We have checked with the local main telephony service providers for landline base phones and they have confirmed that our new 08453 number is indeed charged at local rates. Our view on mobile telephony is that the caller has the choice of contacting the police via a number of media (landline, mobile, email, and even text - something we are investigating) and so when ringing on non-emergency business, it is down to the caller to make the choice of landline or mobile, and a note has been added to publicity to warn callers that charges from mobile networks may vary. However, we have also contacted the five main mobile cellular telephony providers and have confirmed that the maximum/worst case scenarios for charges to call an 08453 number are as follows:

Three Mobile = 15p /min flat charge
Orange = 10p/ min - 35p/ min (dependant on tariff)
Vodaphone = 12p/ min - 15p/ min
O2 = 8p/ min
T- Mobile - 10p/ min - 40p/ min (pay as you go being the maximum)
Virgin - 10p/ min - 15p/ min


We do not consider these to be any more prohibitive than other choices offered to mobile telephone users.

I can confirm that no revenue to Northamptonshire Police is raised by introduction of this number, although there may be in-house savings in due course as we will be able to release costly direct dial number rentals. So it isn't the case that there is a payment to the police to profit from the use of the 08453 number. That information will also be noted on our website or material publicising the number, so that this suspicion is allayed, if indeed it was there.

I take your point entirely regarding contact from overseas. Whilst we do not have much communication from overseas via the telephone (most comes via the website), we have now published a non 08453 DDI telephone number to field those calls. This is detailed on the website and should answer your concern in that regard,

We have independently asked the local Trading Standards Office to examine our website and procedures. Whilst we are not subject to some of the ASA regulations on the matter, we wanted to stick to the spirit of the guidance on use of SNENs, and we have been assured that these matters are being handled properly and that we are compliant, in line with the many other forces and organisations (like Trading Standards) who offer 'local-rate' numbers.

Whilst you may not agree with the use of the 0853 number, I hope that this answers the more direct and salient points you raised with the Chief Constable, who has been briefed on this matter.

Your email was extremely useful - thank you for contacting us. I am not intending to write to the agencies and individuals you copied in on your email, but I will, of course, brief Police Authority colleagues on our response to you, and you are, of course,  free to pass on these comments to your contacts.
>>

idb wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2006 at 10:50pm:

Response received earlier today wrt my complaint regarding the use of 0845: ...and we did not want those people in the county living outside the 01604 range to suffer hikes in phone call charges to us.

But we have caused a hike in the charges to those living within the area as well.
You have achieved a +44 entry. Well done idb. Too late to write a calm comment about the rest of the response and I should not like to detract (sorry, distract?) from the progress.

idb wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2006 at 10:50pm:

We have checked with the local main telephony service providers for landline base phones and they have confirmed that our new 08453 number is indeed charged at local rates.

Are you going to attempt to challenge the continued commission by the Police of an Offence under Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987?

See  

Para 1.3 Page 1 of www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+ on.htm

and

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&; amp;SESSION=875

and

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+prov iders.htm

and Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own district council where we agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

idb wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2006 at 10:50pm:

Response received earlier today wrt my compliaint regarding the use of 0845: Three Mobile = 15p /min flat charge Orange = 10p/ min - 35p/ min (dependant on tariff) Vodaphone = 12p/ min - 15p/ min O2 = 8p/ min T- Mobile - 10p/ min - 40p/ min (pay as you go being the maximum) Virgin - 10p/ min - 15p/ min

Same wrong info again!!


Quote:

and we did not want those people in the county living outside the 01604 range to suffer hikes in phone call charges to us.

But they are all in a local call area for BT LUS Users & there is no difference in call cost for the rest of us, even if a Glasgow number was used!


Quote:

We have checked with the local main telephony service providers for landline base phones and they have confirmed that our new 08453 number is indeed charged at local rates.

Same rubbish I got. I suggested to the Chief Inspector that the telecom providers, especially Windsor Telecom were not best placed to offer advice on this matter as the wrongly advertise these numbers themselves & Trading Standards rulings are a better bet.


Quote:

40p/ min,  We do not consider these to be any more prohibitive than other choices offered to mobile telephone users

On What planet


Quote:

in line with the many other forces and organisations (like Trading Standards) who offer 'local-rate' numbers.

Have you learned nothing from my emails? THEY ARE NOT LOCAL RATE!!

saynonto0871 wrote on Mar 4^th, 2006 at 8:13am:

Have you learned nothing from my emails? THEY ARE NOT LOCAL RATE!!

There seems to be a great deal of similarity between the use of 084 and 087 numbers and the story of the Emperors New Clothes I often feel.  That is that the camp followers just go along with the rubbish that they think will impress their superiors regardless of the actual truth.

I suggest idb and 0871 draw this latest falsehood to the attention of all of the members of the local Police Authority.

I will be.
I originally emailed the Chairperson of the Police Authority who passed it on to the Chief Constable's office, who gave the replies.
I will be getting back to the Police authority regarding the points that the Police have not addressed properly or just ignored.

Even getting this far with their website has been like pulling teeth.

Interesting to read that Northampton Police are insisting that calls to 0845 are charged at Local Rate. This must be something that BT are now spinning because I recently spoke to a company about their claim that their 0845 no was charged at Local Rate. Their reply was that since BT had recently reduced the rate of 0845 at peak time to 3p per minute it did equate to a local rate call! (also equates to any call of course but local rate served their purpose) I replied that that was as may be but was excluded from my inclusive package-their reply was that that was outside their control and whilst they understood my concern and could not understand, as 0845 was now the same price, why it was excluded suggested I take the matter up with my phone supplier or Ofcom. At the very least seems a better spin than the police. Any ideas on this new spin on 0845?  

davis wrote on Mar 5^th, 2006 at 9:54am:

Any ideas on this new spin on 0845?

It is a standard lie given to them by their cynical telecoms supplier to try to justify their continued use of these scam numbers.

These standard lies continue to be repeated on BT's website selling these numbers.

See http://www.bt.com/btcom-bin/btcom/store/product/catalog.jsp?tab=Phone+lines+%26+call+services&subcat=-32961&com.bea.event.type=linkclick&oLName=link.searchresults&oLDesc=KB_548

This is in spite of their previous submissions to Ofcom acknowledging that 0845 and 0870 are not in fact local and national rates and also in spite of the comments some months ago of the CEO of BT Retail that ideally these 084 and 087 numbers should just be "swept away".  See:-

http://business.scotsman.com/banking.cfm?id=764772005

I suggest everyone here emails BT Retail CEO, ian.livingston@bt.com and BT overall Chief Executive, ben.verwaayen@bt.com, asking how they can justify the use of these disgraceful lo-call/local and national rate lies on their own BT business web site

New development, website amended as follows:
Calls to 0845 numbers from a fixed line are charged to a maximum of 5p per minute. Network Tariffs apply when calling 0845 numbers from a mobile phone. Northamptonshire Police does not profit from the provision of this number

Price up to 5p/min

Northampton police does not profit.....

Ha, they've either been taken for a ride big time & signed a really crap contract which allows the telecoms supplier to print money or the the cost of the contract for telecoms services was artificially low due to projected the call revenue.

So they're either p1ssing tax payers money don the drain or they're getting profit in kind.

FOI request Re: call revenues and telecoms contracts anyone?

saynonto0871 wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 8:22pm:

Ha, they've either been taken for a ride big time & signed a really crap contract which allows the telecoms supplier to print money or the the cost of the contract for telecoms services was artificially low due to projected the call revenue. So they're either p1ssing tax payers money don the drain or they're getting profit in kind. FOI request Re: call revenues and telecoms contracts anyone?

I suggest they are getting the annual contract on the cheap or getting a switchboard or phone line rental free.  That's the normal setup with these 0845 schemed.

Try an FOI although uk Police forces are often notoriously devious at giving straight answers.  Police are subject to the FOI in all respects.

I would suspect that they are profiting in kind, cheaper costs to the accountants.
But it's just as bad/same as receiving a big fat cheque from the call revenue.

saynonto0871 wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 8:31pm:

I would suspect that they are profiting in kind, cheaper costs to the accountants. But it's just as bad/same as receiving a big fat cheque from the call revenue.

Of course it is as bad.  It is extra taxation by the back door which is what New Labour does everywhere and through the massive Council Tax rises here in the South.

Try an FOI.  My FOI to the City of London Police about their hidden SPECS speed camera trap on Tower Bridge was very successful and led to an article in the Evening Standard.

Grateful for suggestions on wording.
Basically i want to establish what they get for how much in their telecoms contracts so we can draw the conclusion as to whether it's artificially below cost/market rates due to the projected call revenue ging to the tels supplier

saynonto0871 wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 8:56pm:

Grateful for suggestions on wording. Basically i want to establish what they get for how much in their telecoms contracts so we can draw the conclusion as to whether it's artificially below cost/market rates due to the projected call revenue ging to the tels supplier

You are on the right lines.

Ask for telecoms supplier, cost of annual contract, whether there is an alternative geographic phone number for overseas and mobile phone callers, whether they were quoted other prices for use of other phone number alternatives eg geographic via voip and 0800 and what those other prices were, whether there is any revenue share from the contract supplier direct to Police.  Also whether additional cost of calls by general public using BT Options 2 and 3 or from mobiles or overseas were considered.  Also whether impossibility of accessing at all from overseas (well known as a problem with 0845) was considered.

Make sure to address your query to the Freedom of Information Officer:- foi@northants.pnn.police.uk

Or see their online FOI request website:- www.northants.police.uk/default.asp?action=article&ID=1877

dont forget 'Best Value'
"Was 'Best Value' Considered at the time of tender"
Ask for a copy of the Tender document, it makes them work harder, theyll try and fob you off saying it will take too long to look at it or just censor it.