I am coming under pressure to establish an 08454 facility at my practice (I'm a GP). I understand there are drawbacks to callers but am uncertain as to what they may be! I blocked a move to 0870 some time ago, but would be grateful for any info or advice withregard to 08454 numbers. This is the second time I've used this site and I hope this posting will be as useful as the last time. Thanks Tony

~ Thread title edited by Dave ~

Detailed 'Don't do it" responses will follow from experienced members very shortly but, while we're waiting, could you please explain where specifically this 'pressure' is coming from?

Such information will be very useful in the campaign.

By the way, are you sure the pressure is for a move to an 08454 number - are you sure it isn't to an 0844 number?

If you have the time, I've found THIS THREAD and THIS THREAD both of which contain useful information.

As Wicked says, others will add detailed replies - which, essentially, will draw your attention to the extra cost use of such numbers imposes on patients - but those threads contain some good background.

Not official but financial with partners being told there is money to be made! Firm concerned is "Surgery Line" and I do not yet have full details - original info was that these were 08454 numbers but there appears to be a suggestion that they may be 08444. I get really p%$$&d off with these people making money out of ill people, but need ammunition with my partners. Thanks Tony PS Thanks Bill for the threads - I'll check.

Bill - those threads gave me the answers I needed! They can get lost! Cheers Tony

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 10:59am:

Bill - those threads gave me the answers I needed! They can get lost! Cheers Tony

I assume most of 'the usual suspects' are busy and/or at work at the moment and that accounts for my lone voice in response.

However, I am very happy to have helped you make what, as you probably realised, is the decision I hoped you would make after, apparently unlike your colleagues, you were able to see through the 'smoke and mirrors' of the salesman's approach.

If you get the opportunity to make the point with other members of your profession, it can only help!

P.S. I believe 'Surgery Line' is a name used by NEG (Network Europe Group plc) (mentioned in one of those threads) but appears to be different to 'Patient Line' - the company which the DoH allowed to install 49p per minute bedside telephones and £3.50 per day per patient TVs in hospitals. OTOH, they clearly have the same mindset.

Yes, "surgery line" is a name used by NEG.

They originally opted for 0870 but this was banned by the NHS because of the high costs so 0844 was used instead which is only 2ppm cheaper during surgery hours but actually costs about 3.5ppm more during weekends, etc (outside of surgery hours).

Call charges to various non-geographical numbers (only from a BT landline):-

01x/02x - Geographical calls - Daytime 3ppm, Evening & Weekends 5.5p for upto an hour.  These calls from other landline providers are often cheaper and in some cases free especially at weekends.

0870 - Daytime 7.5ppm, Evening 3.7ppm and Weekends 1.5ppm
0845 - Daytime 3ppm, Evening 1ppm and Weekends 1ppm

0844 - These prices vary upto 5ppm all the time regardless of time of day and NEG Surgery Line numbers actually use numbers that actually cost 5ppm all the time!

This means that by using an 0844 (as used by NEG Surgery Line), your patients are actually paying 5ppm all the time.  This cost is likely to be higher when a patient calls the 0844 out of surgery hours and gets transferred to the emergency doctor service.  This is particularly because there is always a long queue for this service.

The use of an 0844 number will basically mean that NEG Surgery Line actually makes profit of each and every minute we are on a call.  I hope you agree that this shouldn't happen at the expense of your patients that are poorly/elderly and possibly on very low incomes.  One of the other threads mention that NEG don't make a profit but from a financial point of view, this doesn't make sense!  Why would NEG provide a service that they don't make a profit from?  Therefore, I do believe that NEG make a profit and this is at the expense of us patients.

As mentioned above, these costs are based on calls from a BT landline only.  Calls from other landline providers generally cost more (except for calls to geographical landline 01x & 02x which are generally cheaper from other landline providers) and calls from mobile actually can cost upto 35ppm to call one of these non-geographical numbers.

Numbers beginning 084x, 087x are known as non-geographical and are excluded from ALL landline providers inclusive call packages and most mobile networks inclusive call packages.  Therefore those patients of yours that pay upto around £25 per month for unlimited calls are often under the impression it includes all calls but actually doesn't so end up paying even more for these calls despite paying upto £25.  Calls to non-geographical numbers (especially 0844x) numbers may not be possible when calling from overseas simply because of the high costs involved.

Ofcom have the following guidelines about the use of non-geographical numbers used by public funded government bodies:-

"Ofcom believes it is inappropriate for public bodies to use NTS numbers exclusively (i.e. without at a minimum, giving equal prominence to a geographic alternative) when dealing with people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups. Ofcom has been active in providing advice to the Government's Central Office of Information ('COI') and Government Departments and will continue to provide this support. Ofcom would like to see a greater level of compliance with the COI's published guidelines on the use of number ranges, given the level of public disquiet over this issue, and would be keen to support the Government in achieving this objective."

The Central Office of Information have the following guidelines:-

"0845 in particular has been known as ‘local rate’ – however with increased competition in the marketplace and resultant changes in tariff structures, these rates will often be in excess of normal local rates that citizens might be charged on their package. 0845 (and 0844) costs through phone boxes and some mobile tariffs can also be expensive to the citizen and this should also be considered."

Although the above guidelines refer mostly to 0845 it actually applies more to 0844 numbers because they actually cost significantly more than 0845 numbers depending on time of day, etc.

The cheapest rate for us patients (excluding freephone) is a geographical number - all other numbers will cost us more especially if we are in a queue waiting to be answered.

Ofcom have made proposals to introduce a new non-geographical 03x number that will be charged the same as geographical numbers now and hopefully included in our call packages but still have the same features as existing non-geographical numbers now (ie intelligent call routing).

We would be grateful if you let us know what you decide or if you need any further help please don't hesitate to post.

Non-geographical numbers (eg 087x and 084x etc) are difficult , or impossible, to call from outside the UK. So patients, and those treating them, would be unable to contact the patient’s own home doctor.

Patents will find that those numbers are excluded from various call packages (or low cost telecom providers) forcing your patients to pay twice for the call.   For subscribers not on any special call packages or schemes, calls to non-geographical numbers NEVER cost less than calling a normal 01/02 telephone number anywhere in the UK..  

When patients call 087x or 084x numbers from street BT pay-phones, they will pay 10p for each 45 to 55 seconds of the call, compared to 10p for 7.5 minutes when calling an 01 or 02 number. (Pay-phones have an initial 10p connection charge with a minimum cost of 30p).  Patients using a mobile phone, encounter much the same problem when calling non-geographic numbers.

The distinction between “local”  and “national” call rate has for some years been abolished for all practical purposes, so the cost of telephoning your practice (on 01 or 02) from Leeds, Liverpool, London Manchester is the same as telephoning your practice from next door. Ignore all the statements about so called “local call rate” or  “low cost call rate” as they are misleading.  Such false descriptions are offences against various trading and advertising laws and may well amount to professional misconduct..

Organisations who peddle services using non-geographical numbers make large sums from the use of those numbers, otherwise they would not bother.  That money comes from patients. They rely on general ignorance of the true cost and nature of those numbers, and ignorance by those in positions of authority, who should know better. Think of them as ‘sellers of quack medicines from the back of a white van’ and you can’t go far wrong.

Decision will be not to go with 0844 - period. All local hospitals have 0845 numbers but we will not use them. We will use the geographical numbers as policy from now on. I will contact the local LMC also "in the patient's interests" to bring the matter to their attention. Thanks to you all - the web site has a 100% record for help so far! Tony

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 3:13pm:

Decision will be not to go with 0844 - period. All local hospitals have 0845 numbers but we will not use them. We will use the geographical numbers as policy from now on...

So glad to hear that and I can imagine your patients are.  I'm glad you haven't fallen foul to the 084x/087x spiel that telco's publish about these so-called fantastic/great numbers which they always forget to mention the downside to them.

Let's look at it another way: the advantages of using a geographical number.

• It's the sort of number everyone's familiar with, and costs the same as calling a normal phone.
  
• Any discounts or inclusive minutes apply to the number.
  
• Local and national calls costs the same for almost everyone now. But even if they didn't, don't most people using your surgery come from the local area anyway?
  
• Local people don't need to dial an area code at all, just 6 or 7 digits.
  
• The number can be called from abroad from anywhere that allows international direct dialling. (This can't be said for 08xx numbers, which may or may not work from abroad, no guarantees).
  
• You don't need to change your number from the one your patients already know.
  
• You don't need to employ middle-men to run your phone service, whose interest is making money out of your patients.
  

If a company has to approach a surgery and suggest you change to 0844, doesn't that suggest they are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

I applaud the stance you are taking over 0844 numbers (and ripping people off in general). If only more people could think like you.

Does anyone know of the current state of play regarding the use of 0844 numbers by doctors. I can’t remember the name of the last thread on this topic - it ended up very large.

Has the Department of Health sanctioned the use of 0844?  

[Remember the  £500 “compensation” from the taxpayer via the Department of Health.]

It may well be worth a  revisit to this important topic, together with the general use of 0845 numbers in the NHS.

We cannot use 0870 numbers but I am unaware of any official guidance on 0844 numbers I assume as we are being approached to use them that there is not (yet) an issue. Tony

wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 11:14pm:

We cannot use 0870 numbers but I am unaware of any official guidance on 0844 numbers I assume as we are being approached to use them that there is not (yet) an issue. Tony

AFAIK, the 0844 number prefix charged at 5p/min at all times from a BT landline has been deemed "acceptable" by DoH.

See Useful Information & Say no to 0870! Hot Topics thread for some links to other discussion on this and other topics.  ;)

Dave wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 11:22pm:

AFAIK, the 0844 number prefix charged at 5p/min at all times from a BT landline has been deemed "acceptable" by DoH

Would that be the same Department of Health which deemed the 49p per minute Patientline numbers (with the first two minutes being in an electronic queue and not speaking to your relative) acceptable then or that has allowed hospitals to bring in outrageous car park charges for relatives of terminally ill patients.  Either way its all part of "rip-off Britain".

To simplify further for our friend Tony you can make all your 01/02 calls on a home landline for as little as £4 per month if you take an all calls package as an add on as a Tiscali broadband customer (not that I could possibly recommend Tiscali broadband though) or £7.50 per month with Tiscali, TalkTalk and various home phone providers.  Or you can make unlimited calls to 01/02 numbers for nothing with www.voipcheap.co.uk, other than a 5 Euro deposit every 6 months.

By contrast 0844 costs 5p per minute at all times.  So if you have to call just 20 minutes of 0844 numbers a day (and doctors surgeries are of course not the only people being cajoled into using them by ripoff Telcos thanks to the inaction of the utterly wimp like and useless telecoms regulator Ofcom) that's £1 extra a day or £90 extra a quarter on your phone bill.  But had the phone number started 01 or 02 the call would have cost  nothing.  There you have it in a nutshell.

The only reason the DoH allowed NEG/Surgery Line to move on to using 0844 numbers instead of 0870 was because numerous doctors surgeries had been tricked to enter contracts with NEG that they could not get out of.  And if they were broken either those surgeries or the DoH would have had to pay the horrible NEG compensation.

This is a ripoff that relies on people being missold that 0844 is local rate.  See also these references which show why 0844 is not Local Rate:-

Para 1.3 Page 1 of LCC Consumer Protection Service Consultation Response

and

the comments of the CEO of BT Retail Ian Livingston:-

Guidance from the Advertising Standards Authority:-

Hanging on the telephone on & on & on

and

Stop the call confusion

and

Use of 0870 telephone numbers by Government departments

and

CAP rings the changes for telecoms providers

and Pages 5 and 6 of the minutes from my own district council where we agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

~Edit by DaveM: To correct weblink layout

Getting into this now! Never mind the patients (actually I really do!) - it's cost my practice we believe £1000 or so with calls to these numbers in the last year! Sorry, the hospital switchboard (geog number) will now be jammed by many doctors as I spread the word!  - no more "direct line" departmental calls.

wrote on Mar 9^th, 2006 at 10:39pm:

...it's cost my practice we believe £1000 or so with calls to these numbers in the last year! Sorry, the hospital switchboard (geog number) will now be jammed by many doctors as I spread the word!  - no more "direct line" departmental calls.

I presume that direct lines to hospital departments are 0845 numbers? These are slightly different to 0844.

Is your practice on a telephone package which gives some sort of 'discount' for geographical calls? How does this rate compare to 0845 numbers?

May I also suggest you consider putting in a FOI request for geographical numbers and other information. See the FOI section on the forums. Members on here will be able to give you some pointers if you need them.  ;)

wrote on Mar 9^th, 2006 at 10:39pm:

Getting into this now! Never mind the patients (actually I really do!) - it's cost my practice we believe £1000 or so with calls to these numbers in the last year! Sorry, the hospital switchboard (geog number) will now be jammed by many doctors as I spread the word!

The sad thing about the great 084/7 ripoff is that neary everyone loses except for the ripoff merchants like NEG who flog the numbers to business and certain massive call centres who receive huge numbers of incoming calls but hardly make any outgoing calls (eg Sky and the Royal Bank of Scotland group).

If one makes just 20 minutes of calls to an 0870 phone number from a BT landline every weekday in a BT billing quarter that comes to £97.50 of calls a quarter or £390 a year that would have been free within an all calls 01/02 plan if they had been normal 01/02 numbers.  So for it to cost your practice £1,000 in the last year would be easy since 1 hour of calls a day to 0870 is £4.50.  Times that by 250 business days and you are easily over the £1,000.  OK 0845 calls at 3p per minute and 0844 5p per minute don't cost quite as much but still cost between £1.80 and £3.00 and hour for calls that might otherwise be free of charge on a flat rate monthly plan.  Getting to £1,000 for calling these number is a doddle.

Did you realise the whole 084/7 and 09 calls industry is worth about £1.5 billion per annum. :o :o :o >:( >:( >:(