Dear Saynoto0870 members

I hope you don't mind me writing this.  I am currently about to start on a full re-write of my saynoto0870 article both for my site and the Guardian.

Remembering a previous rewrite (though that was actually just an update, this is a full rewrite) that had lots of 'contentious comments' here.  I thought I would ask in advance your thoughts on the new Ofcom proposals for 0870 and other non-geographic numbers.

Remember this is not going to be a full technical piece, its more punter friendly & is in the main a practical guide on what to do, but I hope by coming here in advance I am giving those who want to contribute the chance to do so.   Please do keep it relatively brief though - this is about bigger picture :)


I will pop back to read the responses


Kind regards

and thank in advance for your help and time

Martin Lewis
MoneySavingExpert.com




[edit]by bbb_uk: To amend title of thread[/edit]

Hi Martin.

I've made this a sticky so hopefully it will get noticed more.

Below is what ofcom have already confirmed on some non-geographical numbers and also Ofcoms new proposals (yet to be confirmed):

Confirmed Actions by Ofcom which will be taken within next two years approx:-

0844
This is to stay the same except possibly make new allocations of these numbers easier for consumers to realise the cost.  Currently they cost anywhere from 1ppm to 5ppm from a BT landline and except for searching high and low on BTs website then it is difficult to know the cost of these numbers.  Obviously other landlane providers, payphones & mobiles may charge more (and often do).

My Thoughts: Well I'm not happy about these numbers but feel its pointless fighting any changes on these with Ofcom as yet.  I do, however, feel that many companies that currently use the 0870 range will now use this range at 5ppm all the time which is actually dearer than 0870 during the evening & weekends and only 2ppm cheaper during daytimes.

0845
This is to stay the same but will be reviewed at a later date.

My Thoughts: I feel this should have been looked into further and something done about it but Ofcom decided against this for the time being.

0870
As you know in about 2 years time revenue sharing will be removed from these numbers and it is hoped that teleco's will then price these calls at the same price as geographical numbers and hopefully included in any tariffs, etc.

My Thoughts: Ofcom are allowing too much time before removing the revenue sharing on this range.  This is to allow all companies to migrate to other number ranges if they wish.  I suspect, as mentioned for 0844 numbers, that companies using this number range will migrate to 0844 or 0871 numbers.

0871
This number range will come under ICSTIS regulations (possibly only limited regulations I can imagine compared to 09x numbers).

My Thoughts: I believe companies will migrate their 0870 to this number range or the 0844 range except there will be little revenue share for them on the 0844 range compared to these number ranges.  In fact, it has been witnessed that Virgin Holidays have already started using some 0871 number ranges and still yet still advertises this range as a 'national' rate call.

Ofcom's current proposals:

03xx (new range)
This will have no revenue share associated with it and therefore it is hoped it will be charged for at geographical rates and included in inclusive minutes tariffs.  Ofcom hopes companies and gov dept will start to use this range if all they are interested in is taking advantage of advanced call routing/stats, etc and aren't concerned with losing revenue share associated with 084x and087x number ranges.

My Thoughts: I doubt many companies or government departments will take this new number range up simply because they would have to pay for features like advanced call routing, etc which they probably get for free now with the other number ranges.  Therefore there will be little incentive to take up this new number range.

06xx (new range)
Ofcom propose that this range be used exclusively for personal numbers (currently using 070 range) and call charges be capped at 20ppm (can currently cost upto 50ppm).

My Thoughts: This seems like a good idea at first but Ofcom plan on doing nothing to companies that still use these number ranges to actually gain revenue like a premium rate number but without ICSTIS guidelines.  For example Patientline use these number ranges for the revenue they can get and avoid being regulated by ICSTIS like they would if they used 09x numbers costing the same price.

07xx
Ofcom propose to make this number range exclusively for mobile phone numbers and move personal numbers (070) to the 06x range.

My Thoughts: None

084x
Ofcom propose that overtime, to make it clearer the cost of calling these 084x/087x number ranges by introducing new number ranges like 0841x which would be cheaper than say 0845x. Currently these number ranges are used by most government departments and big companies and in some cases the company using these number ranges actually earns a revenue from us ringing them. These current number ranges can often be described as mini premium rate number and are not subject to safeguards provided by ICSTIS.

My Thoughts: I would like all revenue sharing number moved to 09x range but feel this is never going to happen.  I think the public should be made aware that 084/087 numbers are like current premium rate numbers where some of the call revenue earned is passed back to the company/gov dept you are calling.  I believe that there would be more complaints about these number ranges if the public knew that they are just premium rate numbers like 09x number ranges but cost upto 10ppm instead of £1.50 like 09x ranges do.

09x
Ofcom propose that overtime, to make it clearer to consumers the cost of calling these premium rate numbers and introducing new number ranges like 0901x which would be cheaper to call than 0908x. In fact similar proposals to the 084x/087x Special Services number ranges (see above). These number ranges are subject to safeguards provided by ICSTIS.

My Thoughts: None

Miscellaneous:

Ofcom plan on forcing teleco's to be more open with the cost of these number ranges because currently it can be hard or even next to impossible to find out how much calls to non-geographical numbers cost.

Ofcom are also changing regulations so advertising 084x as local rate or 087x as national rate will be illegal (due to it being misleading).  This includes companies website which don't come under ASA guidelines so a complaint the Trading Standards is necessary and often they dont do much.

Can anyone think of anything I've missed, or care to add their own comments?

Thank you very much for this.  It echos my concerns, thought the two main ones for me are

1. Time delay
2. 0871 migration

and I've drafted both in my article.  

Im not planning to go too much further than these two  - other than explaining the changes.   My article is mainly to tell people about this site and about cutting the cost of calling 0870.  So tehre's only limited room for more on Ofcom.


As a broad brush i think we should welcome the fact OFcom finally got its act together somewhat.

The one thing i feel may not quite be on target is your note re the dual regulation from Ictis.  From chatting to Ofcom, its likely the regulations will be quite similar for the crucial things like 'hold delays'.  

Overall though i really appreciate the feedback.   :)

martin

Martin, a few things that you may like to add under the text The cost of calling:

• Inclusive call packages always charge for these numbers.
  
• The issues with 0845 are the same, just to a lesser extent.
  
• For the majority of subscribers, including BT Together ones, there is no difference between local and national geographical rates.

A few other comments:

• As for the proposals, I think that 0845 could be brought down to geographical rates. This is being left as is for at least two years as pay as you go ISPs still live there. However, the question is, how long for? I have a PAYG Freeserve account that uses an 0845 number. I understand that this will be withdrawn soon with an 0844 replacing it.
  
• I think that one of the most important things that you can do is publicise the new 03 range. If it doesn't get publicity, then companies will just continue as they are [moving to 0844/0871].
  
• The Telephone Numbering Review consultation, suggests the creation of a 03 range, so it's important to get as many people to give their views on this as possible.
  
• The other thing I'm concerned about, that you might like to mention on your site is the current proposals by Ofcom to remove the price controls on BT (see thread here). The price of line rental for fixed lines seems to be on the way up; what With BT's main competitors like NTL/Telewest and TalkTalk putting up their prices following BT's incremental increases.

Hi Martin,

Is it possible to mention 0844 as well when you mention 0871?

The main reason is that if Ofcom plan on introducing 'call queuing' restrictions similar to that of 09x numbers then companies will simply just use the next highest number range without these restrictions but still with revenue share - this will obviously be 0844 numbers at the 5ppm range.

Thanks.

I sympathise with trying to write the article at a time when it is hoped but not quite certain that Ofcom has moved in the right direction.

There probably is more techical stuff on here than you can include without making it confusing, but a point that I'm glad you are including is that some companies may be rather cynically migrating from 0870 to 0871 numbers, as mentioned on an adjacent thread. I was told only a few weeks ago that 0871 is a local rate number, and replied that I wasn't interested in lies that would cost me 35p a minute [from O2], give me an area code one in Preston. Another firm told me it was a freephone number, and hung up on me when I asked to speak to a supervisor.

Very pleased to hear you're re-writing your piece on non-geographic numbers.  I'm sure may people have been mislead by ofcom's apparent good news on reducing the cost of 0870 calls (even though it won't be implemented until 2008 now!).  

When you look beneath the surface, however, its seems very apparent that although Ofcom wants to give the impression of doing the right thing, in reality things will hardly change at all because, as you have already identified, the remaining loopholes allow for migration.

For a blantant example of how Ofcom's proposals will achieve very little have a look at this thread which shows how Telewest unashamedly encourages business to switch from 0870 to 0871 or 0844 !!

If Ofcom is serious about dealing with these misleading and overpriced NGNs then surely the current Telephone Numbering Review consultation is the perfect opportunity.  And this can only be achieved by tackling not just 0870 but 0871, 0845 and 0844 collectively.  As it stands, Ofcom is proposing to restructure the 08 range (so 0870/0871/0845/0844 will continue in another guise) but this will surely undermine the '03' range which has the potential to be a good idea.  So, Martin, if you can encourage your readers to have their say on this consultation, then this can only help Ofcom realise we are seeing through their smokescreen proposals!  Good luck!

Well folks I've just read this, though i've already submitted my article.

To go though a few notes.

Don't worry all non-geographic number costs are included - not just 0870.  I havent gone for the 03 numbers, it simply is too early for a piece like mine.  The focus on the piece is 'what to do now' not 'what will happen' that's just a final side piece.  Though on my web version (much more space than the Guardian version) i have linked to this site for more detailed viewed on Ofcom feedback.

It is a difficult wrestle with 0844 and 0871, on the one hand we dont want migration from 0870s, on the other hand these numbers are valuable in the override market for international calls etc, so the low end premium rate numbers which is what they effectively are, should remain.

For me the answer should be a 'we make money when you call' type declaraion for all revenue share lines, however i think we're a long way.

I do hope you like the articles, Im sure you'll feel 'he missed X,Y and Z, and what about the lobby', but do remember I am a preventative journalist not an issues journalist - ie Im about how to pay less, i rarely (though not never) write about 'what should be changed'.

Martin

I think here is Martin's article.  (I'm not sure if it is finished though!)

I'm sure others have received MSE's weekly email but thought I'd pass these links on...

Audio clip:
http://mutterings.moneysavingexpert.com/saynoto0870.mp3

Website:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/cgi-bin/viewnews.cgi?newsid1086555604,78422,

Does the audio mutterings mean that Martin has said this on radio/tv or something?  If so, does anyone know of the top of their head which TV and/or radio station?

I know MSE's Martin appears on Jeremy Vine's programme on BBC Radio 2 from time to time but don't know if this clip has been broadcast.