BT Together Option 2 and 3 customers will see prices slashed by almost a third. From  tomorrow, the monthly price for the evening and weekend call package (Option 2) will fall by 28% to £3.95 and anytime calling package customers (Option 3) will see a 31% cut to £9.95.
Meanwhile, BT is also introducing price changes that will be offered to all its customers. From 15th August, BT will be offering a year’s free UK evening and weekend calls if they sign-up to BT for 18 months.



Full details here http://www.btplc.com/News/Articles/Showarticle.cfm?ArticleID=e3cd7070-a172-4c69-b877-e628699bfaf3


Still a few cheaper  suppliers then them,without having to sign long contracts.

~ Thread title edited by Dave

Big Deal!

0870 will be reduced from7.51ppm to 7ppm (daytime), but a 3p connection charge will be added.  [but I paid 7ppm anyway ??]

0845 will stay the same (daytime)  (3ppm), but a 3p connection charge will be added.

The above numbers account for 25% of all call time.

See this article in todays Sunday Times.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2290873,00.html

That's good news except I can't see them reducing the 0870 that much because of the revenue generating that operates beneath them.  These numbers do cost more for teleco's to carry due to the revenue sharing.

BT have specifically chose these numbers knowing that in most cases other teleco's can't match them because of all the money the teleco's have to pay to carry the calls.

BT could reduce their cost to geographical numbers if they wanted but so far don't appear to want to do this which I assume is because they know their competitors can generally price-match or beat BT on their geographical calls but can't on NGN's like 0845/0870.  This is crafty of BT to choose 0870 to reduce knowing that most of their competitors can't price-match them or beat them on these calls but at least it's a start!

When the revenue sharing officially ends on 0870 then I suspect that BT will also bring down the cost of these calls to match geographicals and hopefully include them in existing plans, etc similar to the new 03x range.

BT will use headlines like they've specifically chose this number because they are so much to call - hiding the fact that they have chose this number because their competitors charge more (for which they'll highlight) and, as mentioned above, they can't compete with in most cases.


Quote:

We spend a quarter of our time on the phone on these numbers, according to BT

I personally would have said it's more than a quarter of our time as these numbers are everywhere.  Just go through the magazines that come in the papers and TV shopping adverts and you'll see most numbers are 0870.

Something similar has been mentioned in the Telegraph here, and from it I

Quote:

Ben Verwaayen, the chief executive of BT, has repeatedly stressed that the company does not intend to compete with its low-cost rivals on price. This autumn it will launch BT Vision, which will offer customers video on demand over the internet

which seems to contradict things a bit.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.....  

No mention of 0871 and 0844 in the announcement.

Cheaper 0870 will speed up migration to 0871.

Thanks for the post orsonkart.

This will be a useful article to enclose with any complaint sent to an organisations in respect of their use of 087/084 telephone numbers.  

0845:
Before (day/evg/weekend)
3p/1p/1p

After
3p/1p/0.5p  

0870:
Before
7.51p/3.75p/1.5p  

After
7p/3.5p/1.5p

summary - hardly any difference.

Some increases at the same time (to be expected) as the very slight reductions in 0845/0870 call costs and reductions in Together Option 2/3 plans.  They are:-

Call Set-up Fee
From 1st October 2006, the minimum call charge of 5.5p for residential customers will be replaced by a call set-up fee of 3p that will be charged at the start of each phone call.

The call set-up fee will be applied to national and local geographic calls, premium rate calls, NTS calls (e.g. 0845, 0870), international calls and landline-to-mobile calls. However, it will not apply to zero-rated calls included in BT Together Option 2 and 3, BT Together Local Calls Option or Evening and Weekend UK geographic calls of up to an hour for Option 1 customers for which a charge of 5.5p per call will apply.

The new call set-up fee will apply to all customers on the Light User Scheme (LUS). The LUS rental rebate and threshold will be adjusted in the customer's favour to ensure customers continue to benefit from these services and that their bills do not increase by more than the rate of inflation as a result. For customers on In-Contact Plus, the 10p minimum call charge will be replaced by the 3p call set-up fee. More details on this can be found at bt.com/pricing.

Landline-to-mobile Price Changes
From 1st October 2006, BT will simplify its landline-to-mobile rates for residential customers by introducing just three rates which will replace existing landline-to-mobile tariffs. Landline-to-mobile rates during the Daytime will be 13ppm (inc VAT), during the Evenings, they will be 8ppm and during the Weekend, they will be 5ppm (inc VAT). These rates will apply for calls to ALL mobile networks (except Hutchinson 3G) and will make it easier for you to manage your calls. Not only does this change make our pricing easier to understand but also ensures our prices remain among the most competitive in the market.

Reductions in 0870 and 0845 rates
From 1st October 2006, the call rates for residential customers making 0870 calls will be reduced to 7ppm from 7.51ppm in the daytime, reduced to 3.69ppm from 3.75ppm in the evening and remain at 1.50ppm at the weekend. 3p set-up fee applies. Also, the call rates for residential customers making 0845 calls will be reduced to 0.5ppm from 1.5ppm at the weekend and will remain the same at 3ppm in the daytime and remain the same at 1ppm in the evening. This change will mean our 0870 call rates are among the most competitive in the market.

Whole Minute Charging
From 1st October 2006, each call will be rounded up to the next whole minute for national and local geographic calls, international calls and landline-to-mobile calls. Minute rounding will not be applied to NTS calls or premium rate service calls and existing rounding rules will apply to these numbers. Calls made by In-Contact Plus customers will also be subject to this pricing, as will calls made by LUS customers. The LUS rental rebate and threshold will be adjusted in the customer's favour to ensure customers continue to benefit from these services. Other calls like 5.5p Evening and Weekend geographic UK calls on BT Together Option 1, any calls made within the inclusive calls packages on BT Together Option 2 and 3 and BT Together Local Calls Option will not be affected. For full details of which call types will be charged by the whole minute, visit bt.com/pricing.

More info here.

One of the main increases is the minimum call charge has been replaced with a call connection fee (or setup fee to use BT's words).  This means that the cost of any chargable calls you make with BT WILL increase compared to what you were paying before for that exact same call.

It also means that other teleco's will now (or eventually) follow BT by example and charge to a connection fee/call setup fee so they are then "inline" with BT.  That is, except, Telewest/NTL who already have a connection fee.

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 5:41pm:

Whole Minute Charging From 1st October 2006, each call will be rounded up to the next whole minute for national and local geographic calls, international calls and landline-to-mobile calls.

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

So a connected call to an answering service will cost 3p + whatever pence per minute. Indeed, the minimum call charge will still apply in so much as it will be 3p + the amount for the first minute. If calls on Option 1 stay at 3p/min in the daytime, that's a 3p minimum charge. As usual, what appears at first to be good, is in fact a disguised increase of 0.5p per call that lasts 1 minute or less.

This is disgusting and only happens because of the completely weak regulation that we have come to expect here in the UK. A 1 minute 1 second call will cost the same as 2 minutes! In the days of mechanical phone systems I could acept this, but in today's high-tech electronic age, there's no excuse.  >:(

The industry is always busy devising ways of lessening pricing transparancy. I believe that the elderly, especially, will not understand the difference between billing to the nearest second and to the nearest minute.

So with the "setup fee" and whole minute rounding, the minimum cost of a daytime 0870 call will be 10p, as opposed to 5p. That's an increase of 50%!

The only good news in the new prices is the reduction in 0845 rate at the weekend. That will be useful for people I know still on dialup, until all the ISPs have moved to 0844, that is.

I would like to analyse the change in calls to mobile pricing in detail but don't have time. The cost to some mobiles has increased. However, I have to applaud the simpler pricing structure as I have previously gone to look up the prices before calling (I knew someone who had phones on two networks, and one was cheaper in the evening, and the other at the weekend!!)

I wish they would simplify the pricing of calls to 0844 numbers now, where the cost can depend on the 7th digit (8th is you count the leading "0")!

jrawle wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 6:15pm:

So with the "setup fee" and whole minute rounding, the minimum cost of a daytime 0870 call will be 10p, as opposed to 5p. That's an increase of 50%!

Whole minute charging will not apply to 08 NTS.

Whole minute charging is just another tool in BT's arsenal which is pushing low users up the scale. Those on BT Together Option 1 are now even more likely to consider moving up to Option 2 or 3 or move to another provider. The point is that the price differential between the packages is now closing because the cost of basic line rental has been pushed up that much. At the same time, the higher packages are falling.

I would love to know what Talktalk plan on doing because they promise to be cheaper then BT and with these new prices BT will be cheaper. I hope this means a price war between the companys :)

Dave wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 6:10pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 31st, 2006 at 5:41pm: Whole Minute Charging From 1st October 2006, each call will be rounded up to the next whole minute for national and local geographic calls, international calls and landline-to-mobile calls. So a connected call to an answering service will cost 3p + whatever pence per minute. Indeed, the minimum call charge will still apply in so much as it will be 3p + the amount for the first minute. If calls on Option 1 stay at 3p/min in the daytime, that's a 3p minimum charge. As usual, what appears at first to be good, is in fact a disguised increase of 0.5p per call that lasts 1 minute or less.

I never spotted that as I never read the "Whole Minute Charging" thing.

It does appear that effectively, a very quick call or the call answered by voicemail could, depending on time of day, cost 6p (3p connection fee + 3p for the first minute).

Although this doesn't include NTS numbers, I do believe overtime they will.

Justin wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 6:52pm:

I would love to know what Talktalk plan on doing because they promise to be cheaper then BT and with these new prices BT will be cheaper. I hope this means a price war between the companys :)

TalkTalk only promise to be cheaper than BT with regards to tariff plans and geographical calls (01x/02x) and not non-geographical calls (08x/09x).

Therefore, from my understanding, TalkTalk will still be cheaper on their Talk3 plan compared to BT's Together Option 3.  TalkTalk will, however, be 4p more expensive on their Talk2 plan compared to BT Together Option 2.

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:10pm:

Although this doesn't include NTS numbers, I do believe overtime they will.

bbb_uk, I have to say that I'm not too sure about this one. Yes it's possible, but I think that the main reason for per minute charging is because of the removal of the minimum charge. Of course, it will also mean that any prices quoted 'per minute' will be higher than they at first appear.

Indeed, calls to mobiles and geographicals will cost 3p more than they do now, if they last more than a few minutes.

Dave wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:26pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 31st, 2006 at 7:10pm: Although this doesn't include NTS numbers, I do believe overtime they will. bbb_uk, I have to say that I'm not too sure about this one. Yes it's possible, but I think that the main reason for per minute charging is because of the removal of the minimum charge. Of course, it will also mean that any prices quoted 'per minute' will be higher than they at first appear.

I think it's more related to the reductions in their tariff plans.  Generally, any price cuts in one area are counter-balanced (or subsidised to use a better word) in other areas.  In this case, their new tariff plans are subsidised by the increase (or introduction) in the connection fee and whole minute charging.

This 3p connection fee will make BT more money than the minimum call charge as most calls made will normally have cost more than the 5.5p minimum call charge anyhow so you ONLY pay for the call.  Now, however, you are paying for the call AND a connection fee so therefore any chargable call that is made via BT will effectively cost 3p more than it did, or if making a very quick call or the call is answered by voicemail, then it could cost upto an extra 6p.

BT’s announcement, is all smoke and mirrors: the more you look at it, the more you realise that quite a lot has gone up in price.

[The following is based on the UK wide call rate of 3ppm for telephoning all locations in the UK during "business hours"] 

The average 5 minute call used to cost 15p (5 x 3p)
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 15p (5 x 3p) plus 1.5p** = 19.5p.  A 30% increase.

The average 10 minute call used to cost 30p (10 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 30p (10 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 34.5p. A 15% increase.

The average 15 minute call used to cost 45p (15 x 3p)
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 45p (15 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 49.5p. A 10% increase

The average 20 minute call used to cost 60p (20 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 60p (20 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 64.5p. A 7.5% increase.

The average 30 minute call used to cost 90p (30 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 90p (30 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 94.5p. A 5% increase.

The average 60 minute call used to cost 180p (60 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 180p (60 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 184.5p. A 2.5% increase.

**Why have I added 1.5p to the cost of the calls?   With the introduction of “whole minute charging”, if the call is just under a whole minute then the cost of the last minute will be 3p. If the call is just over a whole minute then the “last minute” will cost an extra 3p.  Statistically, half the calls will be under and half over the payment threshhold,  the probability of going over is about 50%. So the average increase will be 1.5p.

I don’t know what the average call length is, but it is clear that by introducing whole minute charging AND a connection fee, call charges have increased considerably.
A typical call lasting 15 minutes has increased by a staggering 10%.

Tomorrows headlines should read:  “BT  Announces  A  Massive  Price  Increase In Call Costs”

kk wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:55pm:

A typical call lasting 15 minutes has increased by a staggering 10%.

kk, I've no doubt that BT has done its calculations inside out, upside down, and back to front to make sure that it's not loosing out. My thoughts above are my initial impressions, and it from what you've calculated, there's more to it than meets the eye (as expected).

Your calculations are of course for daytime calls to geographical numbers. Your 1.5p added to every call can be explained as follows:
Putting the connection charge aside, a per minute call (charged to the nearest minute) that lasts:

Length	Total cost	Avergage
2	6p	3p/min
2min 10s	9p	4.15p/min
2min 20s	9p	3.86p/min
2min 30s	9p	3.60p/min
2min 40s	9p	3.38p/min
2min 50s	9p	3.18p/min
3min	9p	3p/min

So you can see that a call charge that purports to be 3 pence per minute is infact only 3p/min at its lowest point; which is on the whole minutes. Just after a whole minute the per minute average jumps. Crafty..............

Now including the 3p connection fee gives:

Length	Total cost	Avergage
2	9p	4.50p/min
2min 10s	12p	5.54p/min
2min 20s	12p	5.14p/min
2min 30s	12p	4.80p/min
2min 40s	12p	4.50p/min
2min 50s	12p	4.24p/min
3min	12p	4.00p/min

Of course, this all comes just after the statement on the dropping of Retail Price Controls on BT after BT's "assurances" (sic).  ::)

What no-one's mentioned on here yet is how this affects calls to mobile phones. Current daytime prices to the four GSM networks are from 12.4 to 15.4 pence per minute, which means that the minimum charge on these will be 15.5 to 18.5 (calls are rounded up to the nearest half penny).  :o :o :o :o :o

For calls to 3 phones, they will cost a minimum of 25p !!!

So all those lovely answerphones that people have on and don't bother to retreive messages when you leave them will cost us dear.

Even more reason to use 18185  calls to any UK  mobile network 4p connection,5p a min peak/evenings ,2p a min at weekends.

Does anyone know what is actually meant by the "call set-up fee"? Is this the time at which the person at the other end answers the call or is this from when their phone starts ringing? I've searched google for a definition but without any luck. I only ask this as BT must have a reason for changing the wording of the charge (and they have a habit of using misleading wording [national call rate, etc!]).

Any thoughts?

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 9:59am:

Does anyone know what is actually meant by the "call set-up fee"? Is this the time at which the person at the other end answers the call or is this from when their phone starts ringing? I've searched google for a definition but without any luck. I only ask this as BT must have a reason for changing the wording of the charge (and they have a habit of using misleading wording [national call rate, etc!]). Any thoughts?

Its a connection fee, you dont pay unless your call is answered by someone or something.

Why on earth would any wont to  charge you to get a ringing tone. :-? Thats taking things a little to far is it not.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 10:59am:

Jolly wrote on Aug 1st, 2006 at 9:59am: Does anyone know what is actually meant by the "call set-up fee"? Is this the time at which the person at the other end answers the call or is this from when their phone starts ringing? I've searched google for a definition but without any luck. I only ask this as BT must have a reason for changing the wording of the charge (and they have a habit of using misleading wording [national call rate, etc!]). Any thoughts? Its a connection fee, you dont pay unless your call is answered by someone or something. Why on earth would any wont to  charge you to get a ringing tone. :-? Thats taking things a little to far is it not.

When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. There's no reason, in theory, why a landline call couldn't be charged in this way. This is "why on earth" I asked the question  ;)

From what I've seen over the last few years BT have made it a habit to subtly change the terms and phrases they use when the change will eventually be of benefit to themselves. Do you not wonder why they've changed from a "connection charge" to a "call set-up fee"?

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:29am:

When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. ...

No you are not. You are not charged for the engaged tone, ringing tone or the message telling you that the mobile phone is unavailable.

Voicemail services and O2's CallAlert that sends a text to the receiver are chargeable.

Now that the 'pence per minute' of a call doesn't relate to the actual average pence per minute, would it be misleading for it to be advertised without the "setup fee", or without the same prominance as the "setup fee"?

So when BT states that calls on such and such a package cost "5 pence per minute", that is misleading because the actual cost will include 3p on top. In addition, rounding up to the nearest minute leaves the call rate meaning nothing; it's more a minimum call rate (as shown above).

I hope that makes sense, just wondering if there is any way that they can be caught out with the way they promote these services. Would there be any grounds for a complaint to ASA?

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:29am:

When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. There's no reason, in theory, why a landline call couldn't be charged in this way. This is "why on earth" I asked the question  ;)

On which mobile network is that? I'm certainly not charged for the phone at the other end ringing. If it goes through to voicemail I'm charged, which is why I hate voicemail.

Charging for the ringing or engaged phone is a scary prospect, although I could see the phone companies moving to this model in the future. It costs them for the use of the network even if the call's not conected - after all, that's why BT are so keen for people to have 1571.

Of course, if you use an indirect service (0844...) to make calls, you are charged for the second ringing tone.

Dave wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:44am:

Now that the 'pence per minute' of a call doesn't relate to the actual average pence per minute, would it be misleading for it to be advertised without the "setup fee", or without the same prominance as the "setup fee"? So when BT states that calls on such and such a package cost "5 pence per minute", that is misleading because the actual cost will include 3p on top. In addition, rounding up to the nearest minute leaves the call rate meaning nothing; it's more a minimum call rate (as shown above). I hope that makes sense, just wondering if there is any way that they can be caught out with the way they promote these services. Would there be any grounds for a complaint to ASA?

That's a good point. This situation is quite different to a minimum cost. Now surely  it has to say, "Calls cost 3p/min plus 3p call setup fee".

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:29am:

When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered.

What network does that then. None of the UK ones to the best of my knowledge.

~ Quote box tidied up by Dave

jrawle wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:47am:

On which mobile network is that? I'm certainly not charged for the phone at the other end ringing. If it goes through to voicemail I'm charged, which is why I hate voicemail.

I'm on Virgin mobile and I pay by direct-debit (not sure the name of the package but there's no monthly charge - just call charges). The last time I checked, which admittedly was about 6 months ago, I was always being charged for calling a number and then hitting the red hang-up button on my phone before the call was answered. I will try this again today and check my bill next month to see if anything has changed...

I have both a Virgin Payg Phone and a Virgin Contract Phone and  i am not charged when ringing tone starts, only if the call is answered.

Dave wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:44am:

Jolly wrote on Aug 1st, 2006 at 11:29am: When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. ... No you are not. You are not charged for the engaged tone, ringing tone or the message telling you that the mobile phone is unavailable. Voicemail services and O2's CallAlert that sends a text to the receiver are chargeable. Now that the 'pence per minute' of a call doesn't relate to the actual average pence per minute, would it be misleading for it to be advertised without the "setup fee", or without the same prominance as the "setup fee"? So when BT states that calls on such and such a package cost "5 pence per minute", that is misleading because the actual cost will include 3p on top. In addition, rounding up to the nearest minute leaves the call rate meaning nothing; it's more a minimum call rate (as shown above). I hope that makes sense, just wondering if there is any way that they can be caught out with the way they promote these services. Would there be any grounds for a complaint to ASA?

Excellent point guess we will have to see how they word it when their new  literature etc comes.

I've just thought about changing the title of this thread as prices aren't being reduced per se. Then I realised that the replacement of the minimum charge with connection charge and the whole minute charging will not come into effect until 1 October, that's after these 'reductions' made today get good press. Who's betting that BT will have a promotion or something around 1 October? A bit like politicians burying bad news.  ::)

The other thing is that all mobiles will be charged the same, except for 3 (Hutchison 3G) at 13p/min in the daytime, meaning that the minimum charge for a call to a mobile will be 16p!

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:59am:

I'm on Virgin mobile and I pay by direct-debit (not sure the name of the package but there's no monthly charge - just call charges). The last time I checked, which admittedly was about 6 months ago, I was always being charged for calling a number and then hitting the red hang-up button on my phone before the call was answered. I will try this again today and check my bill next month to see if anything has changed...

I'm on Virgin, but not direct debit (in fact I've still yet to top up after nearly 2 years...) and it definitaly does not charge if the call isn't answered.

What sort of number are you calling when this happens? Are you calling someone's mobile or landline where they have voicemail? If the phone is engaged it goes straight through to the voicemail, so in that case you will be charged.

Dave wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 12:10pm:

I've just thought about changing the title of this thread as prices aren't being reduced per se. Then I realised that the replacement of the minimum charge with connection charge and the whole minute charging will not come into effect until 1 October, that's after these 'reductions' made today get good press. Who's betting that BT will have a promotion or something around 1 October? A bit like politicians burying bad news.  ::)

In October, won't the news from BT be that calls to 0870 and 0845 are being reduced? The introduction of the setup fee and rounding up will be in the small print at the bottom.

So, for those who are staying on BT, what are the differences in the packages that would benefit moving up? Are they really as good as people will think they are?

Mobile rates/charges are the same on all options, so during comparisons forget what you spend on mobile calls. Indeed, it's probably worth signing up for 18185 for mobile calls. The only difference is with calls to geographical (01/02) numbers.

BT Together Option 2 costs £3.95 more than Option 1 and includes all evening and weekend calls upto 1 hour. Daytime calls are the same as with Option 1. So the £3.95 covers all those 5.5ps for upto 1 hour.

That means that if you make 72 or more evening and weekend calls to geographical numbers you will benefit. Make less and you will be better off on Option 1. The question is, will people realise this or will they just 'guess' how many calls they make and move according to their perception of the 'Options'? Will they realise that mobile calls don't figure in the equation?

To go to Option 3 it costs £9.95. If each call costs an average of 6p, that's an equivalent of 166 calls.

The point is that it's reasonable for one to imagine that Option 2 is better than Option 1. But only at the evening and weekend; oh and remember BT has already had its axe on that; 6am to 8am are now part of the daytime.

Quote:

Call Set-up Fee From 1st October 2006, the minimum call charge of 5.5p for residential customers will be replaced by a call set-up fee of 3p that will be charged at the start of each phone call.

Why not call it a connection charge? Therefore will this apply to all calls; even those that ring unanswered?

I have always assumed that legislation such as the Communications Act prevented charging for:

• The initial ringing tone
  
• Engaged tone
  
• Unavailable; as in the case of a mobile phone out of coverage area or switched off
  
• Out of service; number unobtainable (NU) or not receiving incoming calls

Thus, the widespread prevailence of answering services and Ringback when the line is engaged.

Can someone clarify this?

Dave wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 4:53pm:

Quote: Call Set-up Fee From 1st October 2006, the minimum call charge of 5.5p for residential customers will be replaced by a call set-up fee of 3p that will be charged at the start of each phone call. Why not call it a connection charge? Therefore will this apply to all calls; even those that ring unanswered?

"The start of the call" surely means when you start talking. If it's unanswered the call hasn't been "set up" any more than it's been "connected".

jrawle wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 5:42pm:

Dave wrote on Aug 1st, 2006 at 4:53pm: Quote: Call Set-up Fee From 1st October 2006, the minimum call charge of 5.5p for residential customers will be replaced by a call set-up fee of 3p that will be charged at the start of each phone call. Why not call it a connection charge? Therefore will this apply to all calls; even those that ring unanswered? "The start of the call" surely means when you start talking. If it's unanswered the call hasn't been "set up" any more than it's been "connected".

You may or may not be right. A clarification from BT as to when exactly the 3p connection charge kicks in would be useful.

In my previous post on 31 July (#18) I showed that:

The average 15 minute call used to cost 45p (15 x 3p)
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 45p (15 x 3p) plus 1.5p** = 49.5p. A 10% increase

**With the introduction of “whole minute charging”, if the call is just under a whole minute then the cost of the last minute will be 3p. If the call is just over a whole minute then the “last minute” will cost an extra 3p.  Statistically, half the calls will be under and half over the payment threshhold,  the probability of going over is about 50%. So the average increase will be 1.5p.

[based on the UK wide call rate of 3ppm for telephoning all locations in the UK during "business hours"]

Can anybody tell me the average length of a call, including the source for that information.

Justin wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 6:52pm:

I would love to know what Talktalk plan on doing because they promise to be cheaper then BT and with these new prices BT will be cheaper. I hope this means a price war between the companys :)

Don't worry, TT have been sure to exclude 08 numbers from that so-called price promise.

I recieved a "Changes to BT's Pricing and Terms & Conditions" leaflet today. Most of the contents is what we already know. However, I noticed the BT Privacy T&Cs, effective from 1 October.

Customers must make two chargeable calls with BT every month, otherwise they will pay £1.75 a month for caller display!

I know this is partly aimed at CPS customers, and they even tell you how to use the 1280 prefix. But what about people who have paid for option 2 or 3, and only make "free" calls to geographical numbers? Presumably these are not "chargeable" calls, so anyone who only calls geographical and freephone numbers might find they are paying an extra £1.75 a month to BT! So this is another sneaky price increase.

With a "call set-up fee" and whole minute charging, this means there is a minimum amount customers have to spend each month. I guess the best numbers to call might be 0845 numbers at the weekend (which will be 0.5p/min) so caller display will cost 7p per month!

I didn't even get a leaflet, as BT have decided that because I registered my account details online about 2 years ago, they decided about 6 months ago that I no longer wanted paper bills.

Recently I needed to open a savings account and needed 2 pieces of ID to prove my address, and had to come up with my inactive Natwest account statement (as my A&L account is online only) and I couldn't use a utility bill as I'm still at home with my parents, but I do have a phone line in my room but BT is now paperless!!

Post office homephone never got around to connecting me despite a few calls, and even though they set up my direct debit.

Dave wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 6:23pm:

Whole minute charging will not apply to 08 NTS...

There appears to be a discrepancy!

The t&c printed on their website here state that the whole minute charging will not apply to NTS calls, etc but yet we got a letter from BT informing us of their new prices and a booklet of changes to the t&c, and under "Whole Minute Charging", I quote the following:-

Quote:

From 1st October 2006, each call will be rounded up to the next whole minute for national and local geographical calls, international calls, landline-to-mobile calls, premium rate service calls and NTS calls (e.g. 0845, 0870)....

I've read this several times and I've definitely read it correctly so the obvious question is which version of their t&c is correct?  I suspect it is that latter one that I got through the post simply because this would mean more money for BT!

bbb_uk wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 4:23pm:

There appears to be a discrepancy!

Interesting, bbb_uk. I thought that perhaps the who minute charging won't apply to 09 calls is because they can cost up to £1.50 pence per minute, the minimum charge for a call to such a number will be £1.53.  :o

I've received the "Changes to BT's Pricing and Terms & Conditions" and I agree, someone's made a mistake somewhere. Notice how it's printed in black and white, no colour, yet the covering letter from Ms Lewis is colour. "Option 2. Sliced by over 28% a year." This, being British Telecom makes me ashamed to be British.

The spin that is put on this leaves all but the most saavy thinking that prices are coming down for all.  :'(

On billboards up and down the country there is the message "BT has cut it call package prices." Whilst this may be true, it has increased certain chargeable calls by introducing whole minute charging and a call setup fee.  >:(

BT have been economical with the truth, as I said in my previous post (#18):-

A typical call to a 01/02 number, lasting 15 minutes, has increased by a staggering 10%.

The headlines should read:  “BT  Announces  A  Massive  Price  Increase In Call Costs”

I've noticed something else as well in the booklet!?

It only states "Reductions in 0870 Rates." and nothing about reductions in 0845 which is mentioned here.

Even on this BT update page, it only states reductions in 0870 rates!!

Another question now is, is the cost of 0845 being reduced as well?

BT seem to make plenty of mistakes when it comes to the new prices.

From http://www.callsave.bt.com/pricing.html

Quote:

Weekday calls will reduce in cost to 7p per minute in the daytime and 3.5p per minute in the evenings. 0845 weekend calls will reduce in cost from 1.5p per minute to 0.5p per minute.

That makes it sound as if weekend 0845 calls have been reduced by two thirds. But since when have they been 1.5p/min? They are actualy 1p/min!

Has anyone found any definitive answer to the question posed by lompos in thread #38?
When does the 3p 'call setup fee' charge actually kick-in?
My suspicions are because it's not called a 'connection' charge, it will mean a 'connection' doesn't actually have to be made (BT marketting ARE sharp - think of what they've got away with previously!!) and so might we be paying 3p every time we lift the phone, regardless of whether it is answered or not.
I need convincing otherwise!

omy wrote on Aug 25^th, 2006 at 9:58am:

so might we be paying 3p every time we lift the phone, regardless of whether it is answered or not. I need convincing otherwise!

We already have this. It's called BT Answer 1571.

bbb_uk wrote on Aug 24^th, 2006 at 4:09pm:

I've noticed something else as well in the booklet!? It only states "Reductions in 0870 Rates." and nothing about reductions in 0845 which is mentioned here. Even on this BT update page, it only states reductions in 0870 rates!! Another question now is, is the cost of 0845 being reduced as well?

We should make sure we keep a copy of any webpages or other literature that says 0845 is reduced, in case they go back on it.

However, it is only weekend 0845 calls that will be cheaper. And it's 0870 that had been getting most of the bad press, so it's hardly surprising that they want those reductions to be featured more prominently.

"Quote from jrawle :- We already have this. It's called BT Answer 1571. "

Sorry, I must be slow today, but I cannot see the relevance of this answer to the question I posed.  Are we already being charged, even if the phone isn't answered?  I don't think so.
Can anyone explain jrawle's answer for me ?

omy wrote on Aug 25^th, 2006 at 2:48pm:

"Quote from jrawle :- We already have this. It's called BT Answer 1571. " Sorry, I must be slow today, but I cannot see the relevance of this answer to the question I posed.  Are we already being charged, even if the phone isn't answered?  I don't think so. Can anyone explain jrawle's answer for me ?

I said it slightly tongue-in-cheek (perhaps it could have done with an emoticon  ;) )

The point is, if you call someone and they are already on the phone, you go immediately through to their voicemail without any warning. You have paid the 5p minimum call charge without the other person answering. (When I phone someone, it's because I want to have a two-way conversation. If I wanted to leave a message, I'd send an e-mail or SMS).

The same is true if the phone rings for more than seven rings.

jrawle wrote on Aug 25^th, 2006 at 2:15pm:

We should make sure we keep a copy of any webpages or other literature that says 0845 is reduced, in case they go back on it. However, it is only weekend 0845 calls that will be cheaper. And it's 0870 that had been getting most of the bad press, so it's hardly surprising that they want those reductions to be featured more prominently.

It makes no difference as they'll say it was a misprint or something anyhow.

BT have made a big deal by saying their 0870 are among the most competitive in the market and I thought they could have done the same for 0845 on the weekend rates!

bbb_uk wrote on Aug 25^th, 2006 at 5:27pm:

jrawle wrote on Aug 25th, 2006 at 2:15pm: We should make sure we keep a copy of any webpages or other literature that says 0845 is reduced, in case they go back on it. However, it is only weekend 0845 calls that will be cheaper. And it's 0870 that had been getting most of the bad press, so it's hardly surprising that they want those reductions to be featured more prominently. It makes no difference as they'll say it was a misprint or something anyhow. BT have made a big deal by saying their 0870 are among the most competitive in the market and I thought they could have done the same for 0845 on the weekend rates!

I thought BT halving the cost of calls to 0845 numbers to ½p per minute at weekends was pretty good.

bbb_uk wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 4:23pm:

Dave wrote on Jul 31st, 2006 at 6:23pm: Whole minute charging will not apply to 08 NTS... There appears to be a discrepancy! The t&c printed on their website here state that the whole minute charging will not apply to NTS calls, etc but yet we got a letter from BT informing us of their new prices and a booklet of changes to the t&c, and under "Whole Minute Charging", I quote the following:- Quote: From 1st October 2006, each call will be rounded up to the next whole minute for national and local geographical calls, international calls, landline-to-mobile calls, premium rate service calls and NTS calls (e.g. 0845, 0870).... I've read this several times and I've definitely read it correctly so the obvious question is which version of their t&c is correct?  I suspect it is that latter one that I got through the post simply because this would mean more money for BT!

Just had confirmation that "Whole Minute Charging" will NOT apply to NTS calls.

How long it is before they change that as well using the "inline with our other call charges" spiel (!?!)

I am interested to know how the call set-up fee will affect per call charging. That is, where a 08 or 09 number is charged at a certain amount, regardless of the length of the call. Will a call that will cost 10p now cost 13p and will service providers have to promote it as such?

Dave wrote on Sep 6^th, 2006 at 1:01pm:

I am interested to know how the call set-up fee will affect per call charging. That is, where a 08 or 09 number is charged at a certain amount, regardless of the length of the call. Will a call that will cost 10p now cost 13p and will service providers have to promote it as such?

I think I read somewhere that fixed fee calls won't change.

These are usually the 09 numbers that are used for voting, and quiz shows etc.

I have just received a phone call reply to an e-mail I sent to BT's CEO about the leaflet.

I was told by Phil Roach from the Chairmain & Chief Executive's Office (cceo@bt.com) that the leaflet is correct in all respects EXCEPT that the Call Set-up fee is shown somewhere as being 3p + VAT whereas it should read 3p including VAT (I can't find that error though).

Apparently the leaflet 'slipped through the net' (no reference number or date) and the manager concerned has been 'advised' accordingly.  However, as the single error (which I still can't find) is so minor, replacement leaflets will not be issued on grounds of cost.

Heinz wrote on Sep 20^th, 2006 at 10:40am:

I was told by Phil Roach from the Chairmain & Chief Executive's Office (cceo@bt.com) that the leaflet is correct in all respects EXCEPT that the Call Set-up fee is shown somewhere as being 3p + VAT whereas it should read 3p including VAT (I can't find that error though).

Does that mean, where it said whole minute charging applies to NTS calls was correct? (And the website wrong?)

So 0871 calls will cost 13p minimum.

Heinz wrote on Sep 20^th, 2006 at 10:40am:

I was told by Phil Roach from the Chairmain & Chief Executive's Office (cceo@bt.com) that the leaflet is correct in all respects EXCEPT that the Call Set-up fee is shown somewhere as being 3p + VAT whereas it should read 3p including VAT (I can't find that error though).

I got informed by an email from Gavin Patterson (MD of BT consumer) that Whole Minute charging will not apply to NTS calls.

Now which one is correct?  Is whole minute charging being applied to NTS calls or not?

I've e-mailed Phil Roach for 'clarification' on that!

Heinz wrote on Sep 20^th, 2006 at 2:19pm:

I've e-mailed Phil Roach for 'clarification' on that!

I've emailed Gavin Patterson for 'clarification' on that stating what Phil Roach had said.

I wonder who'll say, "Wanna fight?" first!   :-/

Well, just had a response as follows:-


Quote:

I can confirm that we will not be providing whole minute rounding on calls to NTS numbers. I will contact Phil Roach to ensure he is properly informed.

I still think though it wont be long before whole minute rounding applies to NTS & PRS calls as well - after all it's extra revenue on top of the recent changes.

It's October, so have the new prices for 0870 and 0845 come into play? I'm particularly keen to see if weekend 0845 calls will really cost just 0.5p/min.

Where can I find the current prices? The Specialised Numbers PDF still has the old prices (and is dated September 2006).

jrawle wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2006 at 4:19pm:

Where can I find the current prices? The Specialised Numbers PDF still has the old prices (and is dated September 2006).

It's now been updated and is dated October 2006.

Maybe this provides the definitive answer regarding whole minute rounding:


Quote:

Duration Rounding The duration of the following call types will be rounded up to the next whole minute: • Operator Assisted Calls (specially assisted) excluding Number  Translation Services e.g. 0845, 0870, 0871, 08xx and  excluding calls to premium numbers e.g. 09xx. • International Calls (including calls to international mobiles  but excluding ISDN 64k and satellite calls e.g Inmarsat) • Calls from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic • Inland Calls (including g21) • Calls to Channel Islands • Fixed-to-mobile calls (excluding ISDN 64k) • Calls from Private Payphones • Calls to 05xx number range • Geographic calls using ISDN 64k All other call types will be rounded up to the next whole second unless otherwise stated in the relevant section of the Price List. Call Set-Up Fee A Call Set-Up Fee of 2.55 pence (exc VAT) will apply to the following Call Types: • Operator Assisted Calls (specially assisted) • International Calls (including calls to international mobiles) • Inland Calls to numbers beginning 01 and 02 and including  Number Translation Services calls e.g. 0845, 0870, 0871,  08xx and including calls to premium numbers e.g. 09xx. • Fixed-to-mobile calls • Calls from Private Payphones • Calls to 05xx number range • Geographic calls using ISDN 64k

Still slightly ambiguous, but I do read that to mean whole minute rounding doesn't apply to 084/7, but the set-up fee does.

Incindentally, g21 means 05xx VOIP numbers (which, strangely, are also listed separately in the list of numbers whole minute rounding applies to).

jrawle wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2006 at 10:55pm:

Maybe this provides the definitive answer regarding whole minute rounding: Quote: Duration Rounding The duration of the following call types will be rounded up to the next whole minute: • Operator Assisted Calls (specially assisted) excluding Number  Translation Services e.g. 0845, 0870, 0871, 08xx and  excluding calls to premium numbers e.g. 09xx. • International Calls (including calls to international mobiles  but excluding ISDN 64k and satellite calls e.g Inmarsat) • Calls from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic • Inland Calls (including g21) • Calls to Channel Islands • Fixed-to-mobile calls (excluding ISDN 64k) • Calls from Private Payphones • Calls to 05xx number range • Geographic calls using ISDN 64k All other call types will be rounded up to the next whole second unless otherwise stated in the relevant section of the Price List. Call Set-Up Fee A Call Set-Up Fee of 2.55 pence (exc VAT) will apply to the following Call Types: • Operator Assisted Calls (specially assisted) • International Calls (including calls to international mobiles) • Inland Calls to numbers beginning 01 and 02 and including  Number Translation Services calls e.g. 0845, 0870, 0871,  08xx and including calls to premium numbers e.g. 09xx. • Fixed-to-mobile calls • Calls from Private Payphones • Calls to 05xx number range • Geographic calls using ISDN 64k Still slightly ambiguous, but I do read that to mean whole minute rounding doesn't apply to 084/7, but the set-up fee does. Incindentally, g21 means 05xx VOIP numbers (which, strangely, are also listed separately in the list of numbers whole minute rounding applies to).

This appears to say all 08x calls are subject to the set-up fee - surely that does not include 0800/0808?

At least someone else has spotted increases !!!

"Over 13 million telephone customers will be paying more for their phone bills as BT and TalkTalk return to charging by the minute.

BT customers will see a 28 per cent and TalkTalk customers a 30 per cent increase in the cost of daytime landline calls, warns price comparison website uSwitch.

The price changes were announced by both companies yesterday.

Chris Williams, uSwitch's telecommunications specialist commented: "BT is increasing bills by replacing per second billing with the old-fashioned and outdated per minute billing.

"BT's recent high profile promotion of their cost reduction exercise is now a seemingly redundant and hollow gesture for their millions of customers. TalkTalk has stuck by its promise 'to be cheaper than BT' but it is disappointing that they have mirrored these increases."

In addition to charging by the minute, BT will also add a 3p charge to connect the call.

This means the only BT call costs to stay at the same rate will be the fixed special rates, for example the 5.5p per hour evening rate of BT Together Option 1.

Mr Williams was critical of both company's reasons for making the changes.

"Both BT and TalkTalk stated that the changes have been made to make it easier for customers to understand their bills and call rates. The real reason is to increase revenue, without making any big changes to the 'headline' rates," he said.

Mr Williams concluded: "There is a wide range of choice in this highly competitive industry and in such a fast moving market we would urge everyone to make a habit of shopping around for the best deal. Households can save up to £1,207 per year by switching their home phone provider."

farci wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2006 at 7:45am:

This appears to say all 08x calls are subject to the set-up fee - surely that does not include 0800/0808?

My fault! I didn't copy the section where it lists exceptions, such as freephone, zero-rated calls, fixed cost calls, etc.


Quote:

Except in the following cases or unless otherwise stated in the relevant section of the Price List:- • Freefone calls • UK Evening and Weekend geographic calls where the pence  per minute (ppm) rate has been set to zero for the first hour  of each call (or to such calls which start within the  uncharged period but end after the uncharged period) • Fixed rate UK calls on BT Together Option 1 • Fixed fee calls • Calls charged by Time duration which start with a Fixed fee. • International ISDN 64k Calls, Inland Fixed to Mobile ISDN  64k Calls, Fixed to WiFi Services and Satellite Calls (e.g  Inmarsat), for which a minimum call charge applies

what can you do about 08712 numbers
www.greenride.co.uk
www.easypizza.co.uk
www.easypizza.net
because i think they must be more expensive

I've just been updating all the links to The BT Price List as it's been changed and all the old links don't work any more. The information on there appears to be the same, they've just changed the style/format.

However, some of the changes like whole minute charging and the introduction of the call set-up fee seem to have changed else the information is incorrect and/or out-of-date.

BT Together Option 1 pricing information is here.

It says:

Quote:

See General Notes sub-part 4, for details of the applicable Call Set-up Fee. Operative 1 Oct 2006

....refer to General Notes, sub-part 4 here


Quote:

Call Charge Rounding Call Charges are expressed in pence per minute. The call duration will be rounded up to the next whole second. Operative 1 Oct 2005 Residential Customers Each call charge will be rounded up to half a penny, except for calls to Number Translation Services (NTS) which will be rounded up to a tenth of a penny. Calls to mobiles using NTS will be rounded up to half a penny. The total call bill will then be rounded up to the next whole penny before VAT is added. VAT will be calculated up to the next whole penny. Fixed fee prices where duration charges do not apply, will be rounded up to the nearest tenth of a penny. Operative 1 Oct 2005 Minimum Call Charge - Residential Customers Operative 1 Apr 2006 The Minimum Call Charge of 4.6p (ex VAT) will apply to all Residential calls except for the following call types, or unless otherwise stated in the relevant section of the Price List. * Freefone calls. * UK Evening and Weekend geographic calls where the pence per minute (ppm) rate has been set to zero for the first hour of each call (or to such calls which start within the uncharged period but end after the uncharged period). * Fixed rate UK calls on BT Together Option 1. *Fixed fee calls. *Calls Charged by Time duration which start with a Fixed fee.

Looks out of date to me.