Is anybody please able to comment whether 0845 (local rate) telephone numbers are "revenue sharing" numbers?  i.e. the charge punter pays is "shared" between the number holder and the service provider.

Thanks.

0845 are not actually local rate anymore.  They were well over a year ago but due to falling prices in geographial calls (those beginning 01x or 02x) and a few other things, they are not classed as local rate anymore although many still believe it to be local rate because it has been known as local rate for so long.

As for the "revenue sharing", well it is possible for 0845 to be revenue sharing for the end company but if revenue sharing does exist then it is only a few pence compared to higher numbers like 0870/0871 numbers.  In all cases, regardless of the number, the teleco who owns these numbers does get a cut of the revenue sharing which they may choose to pass on to the end company.

0870, on the other hand, does mean revenue sharing simply because of the cost of the calls between both numbers 3ppm (0845) compared to 7.5ppm (0870)

rydaway wrote on Aug 7^th, 2006 at 5:21pm:

Is anybody please able to comment whether 0845 (local rate) telephone numbers are "revenue sharing" numbers?  i.e. the charge punter pays is "shared" between the number holder and the service provider. Thanks.

In short, yes they are revenue generating.

There are some telco suppliers that do pay for incoming calls on their numbers during the day, but at the most this is about 0.5p per minute.  I don't think any telco would pay for evening and weekend calls.

This is alot less than 0870 numbers.  However although many telcos don't pay out for customers receiving calls on the 0845 number, the telco certainly gets a slice of the profits, which means these numbers cannot be included in mobile inclusive minutes, or landline unlimited calls.

Also, any company that does say they don't receive revenue is not telling the whole truth.  Telcos use some of their profits to supply companies free voicemail, switching equipment, and telecoms equipment, which if they operated a normal geo number they would have to pay for.

The best example where revenue sharing [almost] definately takes place is with pay as you go dial-up ISPs. The high volume of calls presumably makes it worthwhile for revenue to be paid to the ISP.

I don't think that revenue sharing is the principal issue; more the fact that these numbers cost more than a geographical call. It is this extra premium that (presumably) is the mechanism that allows for revenue sharing and greater profiteering by the telcos as a whole.

Although its possible to get a Free 0845 number these days  with Free Connection,no call charges,no revenue share  and no line rental.
Its worth noting that some suppliers of 0845 numbers still charge the organisation using  the 0845 number  for  the 0845 inbound  call, as well as what the person dialling it pays.
EG. Good old BT.  http://www.bt.com/store/product/detail.jsp?oid=265426

wrote on Aug 8^th, 2006 at 10:18am:

Although its possible to get a Free 0845 number these days  with Free Connection,no call charges,no revenue share  and no line rental. Its worth noting that some suppliers of 0845 numbers still charge the organisation using  the 0845 number  for  part of the cost of the  0845 inbound  call, as well as what the person dialling it pays. EG. Good old BT.  http://www.bt.com/store/product/detail.jsp?oid=265426

"We invoice you for part of the cost of calls to that number, at rates which depend on the package you select "

wrote on Aug 8^th, 2006 at 10:18am:

Although its possible to get a Free 0845 number these days  with Free Connection,no call charges,no revenue share  and no line rental. Its worth noting that some suppliers of 0845 numbers still charge the organisation using  the 0845 number  for  the 0845 inbound  call, as well as what the person dialling it pays. EG. Good old BT.  http://www.bt.com/store/product/detail.jsp?oid=265426

If you read the BT site mentioned by Orsonkart, it lists:

Benefits
Offering a BT 0845 number sends a clear message to new and existing customers: 'We value your custom so much that it will only cost you 4p per minute to contact us, wherever you are in the country.'

To put it an other way:
'Offering a BT 0845 number sends a clear message to new and existing customers: 'We think you're a bunch of mugs paying us way more than the going rate for a phone call. Welcome suckers!'  ;D

For the vast majority of callers, calling a 01 or 02 numbers from a landline will cost 3p/min, at most, for a call to ANY location in the UK.  From a BT call box, calling a 01 or 02 number  will cost about 2p/minute (10p connection fee and a min call charge of 20p for 15 mins - total 30p)

Calling a 0845 number from a landline will cost 4p/minute -  33% more than calling a 01/02 number.

Calling a 0845 number from a call box will cost 10p for 55 seconds - 550% more than calling a 01/02 number.

The BT marketing information regarding “BT 0845" is totally dishonest and conveys the message that organisations using  “BT 0845"  will benefit customers by only charging  4p/min.  The above illustrates that most callers to “BT 0845" will incur greater call costs.

The disadvantage to BT customers on Options 2 and 3 are more marked, as 0845 numbers are excluded from Option 2 and 3.

I intend to make a formal complaint to Ofcom about the marketing of “BT 0845" as the supporting information from BT materially misrepresents the cost to customers and to organisation who may be induced to use “BT 0845" in the belief that they offer a cost advantage to customers.

Quote:

Benefits Offering a BT 0845 number sends a clear message to new and existing customers: 'We value your custom so much that it will only cost you 4p per minute to contact us, wherever you are in the country.'

From the way I see it, it's misleading because:-

1. They make it sound like these calls are cheaper than ordinary calls because they "only" cost 4ppm.
2. Another point is the, "4p per minute to contact us, wherever you are in the country", is also misleading by making out that regardless of which teleco (including mobile) you use to call these numbers, you only pay 4ppm.  This is actually different from ASA guidelines that stipulate that companies most make clear that its only from BT lines and other teleco's (especially mobiles) will cost more.

If you look at the spiel for 0870 here, a similar line also exists:-

Quote:

Using BT 0870, customers calling your business from anywhere in the UK pay 8p (inc VAT) per minute.

kk wrote on Aug 8^th, 2006 at 7:18pm:

For the vast majority of callers, calling a 01 or 02 numbers from a landline will cost 3p/min, at most, for a call to ANY location in the UK.  From a BT call box, calling a 01 or 02 number  will cost about 2p/minute (10p connection fee and a min call charge of 20p for 15 mins - total 30p) Calling a 0845 number from a landline will cost 4p/minute -  33% more than calling a 01/02 number.

Actually, 0845 is only 3p/min during the daytime with Option 1, so it's the same as a geographical call. So daytime 0845 is only really a problem for people with an inclusive calls package.

jrawle wrote on Aug 9^th, 2006 at 11:30am:

Actually, 0845 is only 3p/min during the daytime with Option 1, so it's the same as a geographical call. So daytime 0845 is only really a problem for people with an inclusive calls package.

And when geographical numbers are charged per minute, many daytime calls to 0845 on Option 1 will be cheaper than geographical numbers as 0845 will be billed to the nearest second.

Thanks bbb.uk for your comment and link to "BT 0870".


The "BT 0870" link you provide, has the following statement:

"Customers may not perceive charges to your nationwide number as expensive"

My translation of the above BT statement is:
Customers using BT 0870 may not realise they are being cheated by the use of this very handy clandestine premium rate number.

Dave wrote on Aug 9^th, 2006 at 11:38am:

jrawle wrote on Aug 9th, 2006 at 11:30am: Actually, 0845 is only 3p/min during the daytime with Option 1, so it's the same as a geographical call. So daytime 0845 is only really a problem for people with an inclusive calls package. And when geographical numbers are charged per minute, many daytime calls to 0845 on Option 1 will be cheaper than geographical numbers as 0845 will be billed to the nearest second.

But geo numbers can cost as little as 3p per call,(when using 1899), whereas 0845 will always be racking up your phone bill while you wait in the queue, and you know what they cost from mobiles, (not included in most free minutes packages), and payphones.

Not like you Dave to fall for that one, or have I missed something?

derrick wrote on Aug 10^th, 2006 at 4:20pm:

Dave wrote on Aug 9th, 2006 at 11:38am: And when geographical numbers are charged per minute, many daytime calls to 0845 on Option 1 will be cheaper than geographical numbers as 0845 will be billed to the nearest second. But geo numbers can cost as little as 3p per call,(when using 1899), whereas 0845 will always be racking up your phone bill while you wait in the queue, and you know what they cost from mobiles, (not included in most free minutes packages), and payphones. Not like you Dave to fall for that one, or have I missed something?

The bit you've missed is highlighted. No-one's saying 0845 numbers are good in general! But it does show it's best not to assume 0845 is always a worse option from all lines.

derrick wrote on Aug 10^th, 2006 at 4:20pm:

But geo numbers can cost as little as 3p per call,(when using 1899), whereas 0845 will always be racking up your phone bill while you wait in the queue, and you know what they cost from mobiles, (not included in most free minutes packages), and payphones. Not like you Dave to fall for that one, or have I missed something?

I suspect Dave was only referring to when the call is made via BT and not the cheaper options available.

The thing about comparing 0845 to geographical calls is that they will only really be compared with BT as they (BT) are the biggest/well known teleco hence reason why during the daytime, 0845 is technically charged at the same rate (ppm) as a geographical.  Obviously, from other teleco's like TT, Primus, etc there is a difference and during the evening & weekend then there is also a difference.

Companies operating NGN's will generally comment that 0845 is charged at the same rate as geographical calls and then go on to say that its up to the consumer which teleco they choose.

The thing is that many companies and gov depts are not aware of the likes of Call1899, etc and are not aware that NGNs are not included in any inclusive tariffs us consumers may have hence the reason why gov depts/companies say its up to the teleco and for us consumers to choose a better/more suitable tariff.  This lack of knowledge I believe is down to the fact that 0845 was known as local rate for so long and they are not aware that it costs teleco's more when calling an NGN than it does to carry a normal geographical call - simply due to the underlying nature of how many teleco's may be involved in carrying the call and the revenue sharing between so many teleco's (including in some cases the end company/gov dept).

derrick wrote on Aug 10^th, 2006 at 4:20pm:

Not like you Dave to fall for that one, or have I missed something?

I was referring to calling from a basic BT line which is on BT Together Option 1 and not what's the best way of calling certain numbers.

The UK,s second largest residential phone company Talk Talk charges 4.5p a minute peak to call 0845 numbers.Theirs a rip off if ever their was one.

jrawle wrote on Aug 10^th, 2006 at 5:02pm:

derrick wrote on Aug 10th, 2006 at 4:20pm: Dave wrote on Aug 9th, 2006 at 11:38am: And when geographical numbers are charged per minute, many daytime calls to 0845 on Option 1 will be cheaper than geographical numbers as 0845 will be billed to the nearest second. But geo numbers can cost as little as 3p per call,(when using 1899), whereas 0845 will always be racking up your phone bill while you wait in the queue, and you know what they cost from mobiles, (not included in most free minutes packages), and payphones. Not like you Dave to fall for that one, or have I missed something? The bit you've missed is highlighted. No-one's saying 0845 numbers are good in general! But it does show it's best not to assume 0845 is always a worse option from all lines.

I did not miss that bit, it is always dearer to use 0845 than a geo number, the nearest you get to them being equal is when phoning Mon-Fri daytime from a BT line, (and to my knowledge they are the cheapest for 0845) but if you get held in a queue your phonebill increases with no benefit to you, therefore it is much cheaper to use 1899 or the like for a cost(3p) for the call duration regardless of length, and calls to 0845 from mobiles and payphones cost even more, but I am preaching, in the main, to the converted  ;)

In the BT link:

"Using BT 0845, your customers can contact you for no more than 4p per minute (inc VAT), wherever they may be in the UK. This is how it works:   .......

.........
Prices.    Typical call prices start at 3.48p/minute (Basic) and 4.48p/minute (Advanced) for 0845 calls (excluding calls to mobile numbers). ......"


Who pays 4p?



BT neglect to say the all telecom providers, including BT, do not include “BT 0845" in inclusive call packages or low cost providers such as 18185.co.uk.

BT put "BT 0845" forward as a number from which customers will benefit.  Who benefits, apart from the relatively few customers (less than 0.1%) on the special low user tariff.



[P.S.  I have sent a formal complaint to Ofcom  see reply #7]

derrick wrote on Aug 11^th, 2006 at 9:06am:

I did not miss that bit, it is always dearer to use 0845 than a geo number, the nearest you get to them being equal is when phoning Mon-Fri daytime from a BT line, (and to my knowledge they are the cheapest for 0845)

There are a number of dial-through providers (using 0844 462 xxxx numbers) via which you can get a 2p/minute weekday peak rate to call 0845 numbers from a BT residential landline (see HERE).

derrick wrote on Aug 11^th, 2006 at 9:06am:

I did not miss that bit, it is always dearer to use 0845 than a geo number...

By using the cheapest method of calling each type of number, yes it is.


derrick wrote on Aug 11^th, 2006 at 9:06am:

...the nearest you get to them being equal is when phoning Mon-Fri daytime from a BT line...

But when the changes take effect, 0845 will be cheaper than geographicals in the daytime on the said package.

Dave wrote on Aug 12^th, 2006 at 7:04pm:

derrick wrote on Aug 11th, 2006 at 9:06am: I did not miss that bit, it is always dearer to use 0845 than a geo number... By using the cheapest method of calling each type of number, yes it is. derrick wrote on Aug 11th, 2006 at 9:06am: ...the nearest you get to them being equal is when phoning Mon-Fri daytime from a BT line... But when the changes take effect, 0845 will be cheaper than geographicals in the daytime on the said package.

Even when the changes take effect 0845 will still be dearer:-

10 minute call 0845, option 1, 30p + 3p conn= 33p
10 minute call 01/02, using 1899, 3p total cost