I have a community web site and wish to allow visitors from anywhere in the country to contact us on a local rate number like 0845, i have looked around but most of them ask for a setup fee or line rentals and such.

please can anyone reading this suggest what you beleive is a fair company that does not abuse the 0845 charges by charging more than a local rate, also one that is free to setup free to us in every way!

yes we ask a lot but they do make money from the calls they get!

thanks in advance for your help.

Welcome to the SayNo forums jasonc310771.

Thank heavens you came here before you did anything.

If you live in London and use a BT residential line, it costs EXACTLY THE SAME to call another London number as it does to call an Exeter or Edinburgh or Dover number.

The terms 'local call' and 'national call' have been meaningless since 1st July 2004 when BT forced all residential customers onto their BT Together Option 1/2/3 packages.  Calls cost 3p per minute* weekdays and 5.5p for up to an hour evenings and weekends.

* Subject, at the moment, to a 5.5p minimum call charge but, w.e.f. 1st October 2006, subject instead to a 3p call set up fee.

Referring to 0845 numbers as 'local rate' is misleading and, now, specifically barred by the Advertising Standards Authority (although most firms ignore such ineffective organisations and continue with the lie).

Additionally, many people now use a prefix-dial company ( www.call1899.,co.uk ) and make their calls to UK 01 and 02 numbers for 3p each (that's 3p connection and 0p per minute) - so you would penalise (alienate might be a better word) such people because calling an 0845 number would be more expensive than calling an 01 or 02 number.  Others have inclusive call packages allowing them to make unlimited calls to UK 01 and 02 numbers (but not to 084 or 087 numbers) for no additional charge - so you'd alienate them too.

ok, i have a telewest landline and live in south east london.

the service i WAS getting cost nothing, not a penny, no setup no fees no annual, nothing ziltch.

but they messed up and have lost the number i wanted to use i was able to choose the number.

now i have waited long enough for them to get back to me and nothing still weeks gone by.....

so need to find something like this but also needs to only cost the same as a local call, ie  if they we next door to me and called it would be the same as if they called my landline nubmer.

any other suggestions?


thanks again.

I think you've missed the point.  It may have been costing YOU nothing but it was costing customers extra.

You must have been paying a landline rental of some sort.

As I said, there's no such thing as a 'local call' any more.  All calls to geographical numbers are charged at the same rates.

Get an 020 number - more people will like you for not attempting to rip them off with the "It's only the cost of a local call" lie.

As mentioned earlier, 0845 isn't local rate and you will in fact be charging your customers more for calling an 0845 than a normal geographical number beginning with 01 or 02.

Check out the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) website here and here which confirm that 0845 can not be described as local rate because it no longer exists and in fact costs more than normal/geographical calls.

Hello jasonc310771, the best number you can provide is a geographical (01/02) one. The main phone packages these days charge all calls to these numbers at the same rate, regardless of the location of caller and receiver.

The BT Light User scheme is one example of where this is not the case, but for other packages that do charge the same for both, you won't find one that charges the same for 0845 numbers (or any other non-geographical numbers for that matter).

There is a new 03 prefix that is coming into operation that will be non-geographical and charge the same as 01/02 numbers. This will also be included in inclusive packages where calls to 01/02 numbers are covered. At present, 0845 and other NGNs are always chargeable.

From mobiles and payphones, 0845 numbers are often more expensive than geographicals aswell.

i see all of your points, but as i said i have a landline i pay a rental charge for my own 0208 number and wish to have visitors a number to call that 'does not rip them off' (the point of asking here!) [sorry]

i have visitors all over the world and most of course from the UK, i wish to allow visitors a chance to call if they want that is, no obligation, a local rate cheep call as if they were to call a neighbour, at present if my visitors call my 0208 number from lets say scotland! it will cost them far more than if they were to call an 0845 local rate number at 3/4/5 p  or what ever it is, i will also have the number listed where it is needed and also have the charges it cost once i have checked it out myself after calling it and also by getting info from the company to post so visitors can see it is cheep and not a rip off.

i do not and never want to 'rip people off'  i have had this done to me a few times, yes a bit of a fool i am, but none the less i know what it is like so do not and will not do to others.

hope someone can provide a god company they know of or use that provide a service i am after.

thanks

jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 4:33pm:

i see all of your points, but as i said i have a landline i pay a rental charge for my own 0208 number and wish to have visitors a number to call that 'does not rip them off' (the point of asking here!) [sorry]

Your 020 number is one such number.


Quote:

i have visitors all over the world and most of course from the UK, i wish to allow visitors a chance to call if they want that is, no obligation, a local rate cheep call as if they were to call a neighbour, at present if my visitors call my 0208 number from lets say scotland! it will cost them far more than if they were to call an 0845 local rate number at 3/4/5 p  or what ever it is, ...

Absolute rubbish!!!

You find me a mainstream telephone package that charges more for long distance geographical calls than it does for local ones and I'll put you in touch with a poor plumber !!!

any telephone company calling my landline 020 number is classed as a national rate, anyone calling a 0845 local rate number from ANYWHERE in the UK is only charged as though they called next door.

source.  telewest/ntl

Hi Jason,


jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 4:33pm:

i see all of your points, but as i said i have a landline i pay a rental charge for my own 0208 number and wish to have visitors a number to call that 'does not rip them off' (the point of asking here!) [sorry]

Any geographical number like your current 0208 is the cheapest option (bar freephone) for every one to call regardless of where they may live within the UK or abroad.


Quote:

i have visitors all over the world and most of course from the UK, i wish to allow visitors a chance to call if they want that is, no obligation, a local rate cheep call as if they were to call a neighbour, at present if my visitors call my 0208 number from lets say scotland! it will cost them far more than if they were to call an 0845 local rate number at 3/4/5 p  or what ever it is, i will also have the number listed where it is needed and also have the charges it cost once i have checked it out myself after calling it and also by getting info from the company to post so visitors can see it is cheep and not a rip off.

I think, like many people, you have been fooled into thinking 0845 is cheaper to call than a normal geographical call.

As mentioned earlier and in the links I provided in my previous post from the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) confirm that 0845 is no longer local rate.  In fact local and national rate calls to geographical numbers (those starting 01 or 02) cost less than 0845, etc and are mostly excluded from customers' call plans.

This is why the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) have ruled that advertising 0845 as local rate, etc is misleading.  Please check out the links I've provided.

Also, some international call providers may not allow calls to 0845/0870 because they are more expensive for them to carry than normal geographical calls to 01 or 02 numbers.

ok, how much is it likely to cost if you call from the top most part of the UK, say Scotland, to a 020 number in south london?

now, how much does it cost to make that same call but using the 0845 number?

'per minute' that is

?

jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 5:01pm:

any telephone company calling my landline 020 number is classed as a national rate, anyone calling a 0845 local rate number from ANYWHERE in the UK is only charged as though they called next door. source.  telewest/ntl

If you check out Telewest's page here they announce that Ofcom (the telecom regulator) has declared that 0845 can no longer be described as local rate, etc as well as some other changes.

From this page, I quote the following first two paragraphs:-

Quote:

Making pricing transparent Over the years the rapid growth and popularity of NTS numbers has resulted in confusion about their pricing structure. There have been complaints from public and consumer lobbies about the lack of price transparency and general dissatisfaction regarding the higher price of non-geographic numbers compared with local alternatives. Of particular concern is the lack of clarity surrounding 0870 and 0845 which, while advertised as national and local rate respectively, are in essence usually charged at rates exceeding the costs of a typical geographical national or local rate. For example, a caller on a standard package could pay 7.95ppm (pence per minute) for an 0870 call (equivalent to a BT standard national rate) but only pay 3ppm for a geographical national number.

The problem with Telewest is that they've forgotten to update the rest of their webpages so they don't describe 0845 as local rate, etc and therefore follow Ofcom's and the ASA's guidelines but they have obviously forgotten to update their other webpages so are therefore technically doing the opposite of what Ofcom and the ASA have ruled.

jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 5:12pm:

ok, how much is it likely to cost if you call from the top most part of the UK, say Scotland, to a 020 number in south london?

The distance no longer applies now because all telephone providers charge the same price but for your comparison it can be as cheap as nothing per minute if you have an inclusive calling plan or if calling from companies like www.call1899.co.uk.


Quote:

how much does it cost to make that same call but using the 0845 number?

This can cost anywhere in excess of 3ppm.  Telewest actually charge nearly 4ppm for this call which is actually more expensive than calling a geographical (01 or 02) call.  TalkTalk actually charge 4.5ppm to call an 0845.

Quote:

please can anyone reading this suggest what you believe is a fair company that does not abuse the 0845 charges by charging more than a local rate, also one that is free to setup free to us in every way!

Jason, you need to understand a couple of very simple issues.

1.  If YOU want a "free" line, then your customers (callers) will pay.....

2.  If you want a "free" or minimal cost service for your callers, then YOU are going to have to pay

These facts are inescapable.

The reason that a telephone company will offer YOU a free setup and 0845 number is that they (the telephone company) will make money on EVERY Call.  As other people have said, your callers will pay - a great deal - and will generally be mega-pi**ed off with YOU!  Meanwhile, the telephone company laughs all the way to the bank. There is NO SUCH THING as a "local rate" and your customers will pay PER MINUTE for the call - wherever they are. Next door. Next town. Scotland ... it doesn't matter.

The alternative as in (2) above, is that you pay the line rental for a normal (geographic 01/02) number. Then YOU pay the cost and the majority of your callers will not pay any incremental costs - i.e. it is a "free" call to them. Of course, now the telephone company is pi**ed off, because they are NOT laughing all the way to the bank! (Why do you think they introduced these rip-off 0870 and 0845 numbers? Of course - to maintain their revenue stream in a world where voice calls are becoming all but generally free!)

So you decide. Who would you rather see pi**ed off? Your customers or the telephone company? To me, it's a no brainer.....  ;)

Of course, the downside is that you pay a line rental for the geographic number - but I think that would be a VERY small price to pay for satisfied customers. Don't you?

Does that make sense? I hope so........

:)

mikeinnc wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 5:20pm:

Of course, the downside is that you pay a line rental for the geographic number - but I think that would be a VERY small price to pay for satisfied customers. Don't you?

It's not a downside really because you would still have to pay for a normal geographical number (like you already have) for your new 0845 this is because, in simple terms, an 0845 number is actually just diverted to your existing geographical number.

Therefore there is NO downside to just having a geographical number because it would still be needed even if you wanted an 0845 because the 0845 would need to be diverted to an existing geographical number!

Pros and Cons for using just a geographical (01 or 02) number
Pros: Your customers, with the exception of using a freephone number, would be paying the next cheapest option available to them and in a lot of cases the call may be free for them (depending on their tariff).

Cons: None.

Pros and Cons for using 0845 number
Pros: Telewest/NTL will make money on everyone calling the 0845 but that's it!

Cons: Your customers WILL pay more for calling you on your new 0845 and, in some cases, it can cost upto 40ppm to call an 0845 number from mobile networks.

Anynow, I hope this has helped Jason and if you have any other questions/queries, please feel free to post them.

also just wanted to add that i will have both my landline and the 0845 number, so callers can decide what number to call depending on the cost they incur, or might incur (if they have free minutes to call an 02 or 01 number.

Good idea, but whatever tariff they use 0845 will ALWAYS be more expensive to/for them, even if more (much more) profitable to your telecoms company or supplier.
The optimum combination is to show an 0800 or 0808 number and a normal geographic number. Landlines can call 080X (there are several inexpensive suppliers for you - others on this site will probably advise) without charge and mobile users can use the geographic (01/02) number.
Good Luck - and thank you for asking first and not falling for the lies.
PS - there is no such thing as a fair 0845 number.

jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 6:15pm:

also just wanted to add that i will have both my landline and the 0845 number, so callers can decide what number to call depending on the cost they incur, or might incur (if they have free minutes to call an 02 or 01 number.

It is fairer but the problem is that some people still believe that 0845 is cheaper for them (like you) despite my pointing out links from Telewest, Ofcom and the ASA, etc which all state that 0845 type numbers (known as NTS numbers) are dearer.  If people can't take in and therefore accept what government departments like Ofcom, ASA, etc state about 0845/0870 (ie they cost more than a geographical) then I'm afraid there is no hope!

This all comes down to those that can't accept change and therefore accept that an 0845 will always be more expensive than a geographical.

Again to prove (although it seems useless) that 0845 isn't "local" rate, Ofcom have announced that a new number range 03x will shortly be available that WILL be charged the same as geographical calls (ie cheaper than 0845) and included in any price plans, etc.  Why would Ofcom start releasing a new number range like 03x if 0845 was actually local rate?

Well at least Telewest/NTL will benefit from your 0845 anyway which may explain why they have conveniently forgot to remove the references that 0845 is local rate - it's not in their (NTL/Telewest) interest to do so!!!!

jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 6:15pm:

also just wanted to add that i will have both my landline and the 0845 number, so callers can decide what number to call depending on the cost they incur, or might incur (if they have free minutes to call an 02 or 01 number.

While I agree fully with all the other posters in that a geographical number is never worse and often cheaper than an 0845 number, is there not an issue of customer perception here?

If a large proportion of the general public still belive, like Jason here, that 0845 numbers are cheaper, even if the company has its customers' interests at heart, it may lose custom if they think they have to use an 01/02 number, while Competitor & Co. next door are using a cheap 0845 number. I'm sure there are many cases in business where products are made technically inferior just to conform to customers' preconception of what the product should be like. The same can apply to phone numbers. Therefore, perhaps we can't blame companies if they want to display an 0845 number alongside their geographical number.

If Jason really wants to set up an 0845 number, I'd check out some of the advertisers on this site. All 0845 numbers will cost the same to your customers, it doesn't matter who provides it. There are many companies that will forward calls to your line.

Jason, you do seem to have been taken in by the spin put out by telcos 'local rate'. So please stop thinking that 0845 is local rate, because it's not !!!

If you want to know why it was known as local rate, then I suggest you read this page I put together.

jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 5:12pm:

ok, how much is it likely to cost if you call from the top most part of the UK, say Scotland, to a 020 number in south london? now, how much does it cost to make that same call but using the 0845 number? 'per minute' that is ?

Using a BT residential landline (the vast majority of BT residential customers are on BT Togther Option 1 so, although most people on these forums have far cheaper ways of making such calls, quoting BT's standard prices will be the clearest way of explaining charges.  In any case, BT is the cheapest mainstream provider for calls to 0845 numbers).

Calling ANY UK number starting 01 or 02 from ANYWHERE in the UK currently costs:

6am to 6pm Monday to Friday, 3p per minute (subject to a minimum call charge of 5.5p);
At any other time, a flat rate of 5.5p for up to an hour (plus 3p per minute for over an hour).

Calling an 0845 number from ANYWHERE in the UK currently costs:

6am to 6pm Monday to Friday, 3p per minute (subject to a minimum call charge of 5.5p);
At any other time, 1p per minute (subject to a minimum call charge of 5.5p).

BT charges are changing from 1st October 2006 and they will then be:

Calling ANY UK number starting 01 or 02 from ANYWHERE in the UK:

6am to 6pm Monday to Friday, 3p set up fee plus 3p per minute;
At any other time, a flat rate of 5.5p for up to an hour (plus 3p per minute for over an hour).

Calling an 0845 number from ANYWHERE in the UK:

6am to 6pm Monday to Friday, 3p set up fee plus 3p per minute;
Weekday evenings, 3p set up fee plus 1p per minute;
Weekends, 3p set up fee plus ½p per minute (amended thanks to jrawle's post below)

Bear in mind too that calling an 0845 number is vastly more expensive than calling an 01 or 02 number from a mobile phone or call box.

Heinz wrote on Aug 24^th, 2006 at 10:40am:

BT charges are changing from 1st October 2006 and they wil then be: ... Calling an 0845 number from ANYWHERE in the UK: 6am to 6pm Monday to Friday, 3p set up fee plus 3p per minute; At any other time, 3p set up fee plus 1p per minute.

From 1 October, 0845 numbers will only be 0.5p/min at the weekend, so for certain calls will be cheaper than geographical numbers at the weekend for those on Option 1 (calls <= 5 minutes or calls >= 71 minutes)

jrawle wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 8:32pm:

jasonc310771 wrote on Aug 23rd, 2006 at 6:15pm: also just wanted to add that i will have both my landline and the 0845 number, so callers can decide what number to call depending on the cost they incur, or might incur (if they have free minutes to call an 02 or 01 number. While I agree fully with all the other posters in that a geographical number is never worse and often cheaper than an 0845 number, is there not an issue of customer perception here? If a large proportion of the general public still belive, like Jason here, that 0845 numbers are cheaper, even if the company has its customers' interests at heart, it may lose custom if they think they have to use an 01/02 number, while Competitor & Co. next door are using a cheap 0845 number. I'm sure there are many cases in business where products are made technically inferior just to conform to customers' preconception of what the product should be like. The same can apply to phone numbers. Therefore, perhaps we can't blame companies if they want to display an 0845 number alongside their geographical number. If Jason really wants to set up an 0845 number, I'd check out some of the advertisers on this site. All 0845 numbers will cost the same to your customers, it doesn't matter who provides it. There are many companies that will forward calls to your line.

That is very true.  It's not just telcos that charge more, and make customers think they're paying less.  It happens in almost every sort of business.

Before Jason came on this site, he was under the impression that 0845 was cheaper than 01/02 numbers, therefore if he saw an advert for 2 competing companies, his preference would be to the one that uses the rip off 0845 number, even though the one offering the geographic number is not ripping off the customer (well certainly not at the initial contact stage)

The best idea would be to display both numbers, but don't use the term local rate, but quote the cost per minute.  Then customers like those on this forum would always use the geo number, and those customers who really do believe that 0845 is cheaper can use that number, but at least they've been given a choice, and choose to be ripped off, rather than being forced to use that number, because there's no other number to call.