Dear All,

I thought it would be best for me to make a post on here, due to the number of e-mails I am receiving from visitors complaining about certain members on the SAYNOTO0870.COM forum.

As previously mentioned, this member has been warned multiple times about personal attacks, posting incorrect information with regards to the running of the site (banners, income, etc), causing trouble between members and Admin/Moderators (with unfounded accusations).

The fact that I am not responding directly, is that I have previously done so many times, but the member in question continues with their current behaviour - The last time I contacted them, I mentioned that I would not get into arguments, and discussions with someone who obviously doesn't like the site and the service it provides.

The website is here to allow visitors to save money on their phone calls, and has been doing so for almost 7 years now.

The forum section of the website is here to discuss the 084/087 numbers, freedom of information requests, and other matters connected to the whole Non Geo number situation, as well as general chit-chat.  Overall, it is here to allow anyone to make use of the site, ask for help if necessary, and for discussions relating to this matter.

Unfortunately none of us have the time to respond to every message made by certain members, especially when a member in question is against the website. - What I honestly can't understand, is why someone who hates the website so much visits it on such as regular basis - even when they have 'resigned', but later signs up again in several different names.

As I'm sure the rest of you will agree, the time is better spent on responding to e-mail enquiries, assisting those who are having difficulties using the site, along with all the 'behind the scenes' chores that are involved in the upkeep of the servers (security updates), and 'house-keeping'.  There is also the unverified numbers list, which although it is building up (and is a lot larger than we would like), these numbers are being checked on a daily basis.  There has also been some development work taking place that should consolidate both lists into one, allowing visitors quick access to even the most recently added numbers.

As mentioned many times before, anyone taking part in personal attacks, unfounded accusations or threats (either by Instant Message, Email, or on the forum), will have those posts removed and their membership cancelled (should this extreme situation arise).  We will not get into long arguments with individual members in these cases.

For the benefit of those members who have read some of these misleading posts, I would just like to clarify a few things:

Banners & Website Finances

When the website first started it didn't have any banners at all, but just had a 'donation' button.  Unfortunately this only resulted in one or two fairly small donations, which didn't go anywhere towards the running costs of the site.  The other option would be to charge members a fee, but then again - they are visiting the website to save money on their phone calls, so charging them a fee to do so would be unfair.  Placing banners on the website was the only way the site could try and finance itself.  It enabled visitors to use the website, without any charge, and without having to ask people for donations.

Unfortunately regardless of what has been said, I can confirm that the website is not making 'a profit'.  Since the recent publicity, the increase in traffic has meant that running costs, etc are higher than normal (and that doesn't include the extra charges for the new server - setup costs and ongoing costs.) - The majority of months, I am having to top-up the income received from banners in order to pay for the server costs, and keep the site up and running.

I haven't gone into detail on this previously, as the finances, and how much I spend out of my own pocket are not the type of things that should be posted on a public forum.

Unfortunately almost every banner that has been placed on the website has received a complaint by one particular forum member.  The most recent of which is the 'Grab a Grand' banner.  The advert in question is for a lottery syndicate, which offers a free entry into the 'National Lottery' via this syndicate, after which the company in question is hoping that members would continue, and pay to take part.  The offer on the banner is for a free entry, which is exactly what is being offered.  Any advert that is genuinely a scam would not be added to the site in the first place, or would immediately be removed after receiving confirmation that this is actually the case. - This would be taken very seriously.

Since I setup the website 7 years ago, the aims and objectives of this site have always remained the same:

"To save people money and highlight to people that 084/087 numbers are stealth premium rate"

If a member doesn't like the aims and objectives of the site, they are not forced to use it (that applies to both the discussion forum, and the numbers database).

Anyone taking part in personal attacks, unfounded accusations or threats (either by Instant Message, Email, or on the forum), will have those posts removed and their membership cancelled).

Please enjoy the site in the way it is intended, and we hope you find the site useful and a money saver !

Thanks to everyone for their support,

Daniel (Forum Admin)

Thanks for the information.

A little late, but welcome nevertheless.

Forum Admin wrote on Oct 27^th, 2006 at 6:06pm:

Banners & Website Finances When the website first started it didn't have any banners at all, but just had a 'donation' button.  Unfortunately this only resulted in one or two fairly small donations, which didn't go anywhere towards the running costs of the site.  The other option would be to charge members a fee, but then again - they are visiting the website to save money on their phone calls, so charging them a fee to do so would be unfair.  Placing banners on the website was the only way the site could try and finance itself.  It enabled visitors to use the website, without any charge, and without having to ask people for donations. Unfortunately regardless of what has been said, I can confirm that the website is not making 'a profit'.  Since the recent publicity, the increase in traffic has meant that running costs, etc are higher than normal (and that doesn't include the extra charges for the new server - setup costs and ongoing costs.) - The majority of months, I am having to top-up the income received from banners in order to pay for the server costs, and keep the site up and running. I haven't gone into detail on this previously, as the finances, and how much I spend out of my own pocket are not the type of things that should be posted on a public forum. Unfortunately almost every banner that has been placed on the website has received a complaint by one particular forum member.  The most recent of which is the 'Grab a Grand' banner.  The advert in question is for a lottery syndicate, which offers a free entry into the 'National Lottery' via this syndicate, after which the company in question is hoping that members would continue, and pay to take part.  The offer on the banner is for a free entry, which is exactly what is being offered.  Any advert that is genuinely a scam would not be added to the site in the first place, or would immediately be removed after receiving confirmation that this is actually the case. - This would be taken very seriously. Since I setup the website 7 years ago, the aims and objectives of this site have always remained the same: "To save people money and highlight to people that 084/087 numbers are stealth premium rate"

Daniel,

Thank you for this informative section of your post putting on the record the whole situation regarding the finances of the website and also your own position viz a viz GrabAGrand.  You clarify why you feel the ad makes sense and while I may of course choose to disagree on its suitability (because I feel that the terminology GrabAGrand and this style of marketing is inappropriate to a site that opposes advertising and marketing material about NGNs that is often itself deliberately misleading) at least we now have a clear statement as to why you feel happy with giving this advert such a prominent place on your site.  Of course perhaps I am old fashioned in this respect given that I have precisely the same kind of hostile reaction to the highly dubious 09 quiz prizeline shows that now litter our tv screens every night and to the latest news that good old Ofcom is now to allow commercial companies to have sponsored branding across the output of an entire television channel - even heaven help us the existing mainstream channels with the obvious exception of the BBC.

But what I can't understand is why you waited so long to make this clear cut statement and allowed things to build up this level of dispute.  Also why do you choose to spoil the clear cut statement setting out in objective factual terms why and how the site is run by making it an implied substantial personal attack on me.  Also if I am such an oddball how have you managed to lose some of your most other active forum members like obviously dorf, mc661 and bigjohn due to the same kind of unfortunate misunderstandings and then you being unwilling to pour oil on troubled waters

You question why I return to the site when I have an issue about its commercial management and the banner click thru ad which you took so long to provide an explanation over.  You then say I am opposed to the whole site when clearly I am not because I oppose 084/7, 188 and 070 hidden extra charge numbers and always have done passionately since they launched some 10 or so years ago and started costing me money.  A campaign is not just about a place to consolidate alternative numbers (good though that is) but also about communication and carrying public opinion with you.  And it is in those respects which I feel you have failed to successfully lead the campaign by never holding a public meeting or having any direct communication verbally with the anti 084/7 campaign's most passionate supporters.

Continued Below/...........................................

Now it may well be that your expertise is as an IT guru and that you are not the correct man to lead deputations to a group of MPs or to be regularly interviewed in the national media but if so why not get others involved on the campaigning front.  You have involved Dave, DaveM and latterly bbb_uk in helping you but correct me if I am wrong as I believe they have never met you or spoken to you on the phone and their involvement is very much at the technical management level of forum content.  While in all probability they are all separate people when the forum never has public meetings, social get togethers or anything else is it surprising that members of the site with a passion for the cause have felt left out and questioned your motivation in running the site.  And no it isn't just me who feels this way.  I have spoken on the phone at length in the past with dorf, mc661, Tanllan and idb.  Dorf and mc661 both strongly questioned the basis on which the site was being run and the advertisement aspects and in each case that is what made them quit the site.  Ok in mc661's reason there was some more trivial immediate reason that was the final straw that broke the camel's back but his underlying reason was that he was unhappy about how you were running the campaign.

Tanllan has not yet formally quit the site but the last time I spoke to him on the phone he was becoming very concerned about how the site was being run while idb (who I have also spoken to on the phone more than once) does not agree with me on absolutely everything but still thinks the site could do a better job of lobbying politicians etc and also has concerns about the appropriateness of some of the ad banners.

I understand you started this site on your own which is highly commendable but at times you do not seem to have encouraged us enough to take all the relevant steps which might stop the scam altogether (for instance where was your email to all forum members asking them to respond to the important recent ICSTIS 0871 Pre-Consultation that closed a few weeks ago) which again raises eyebrows with site members.

Clearly those of us who have concerns on how some issues of political campaigning on the issue could be better conducted feel that this is where your campaign/site has been lacking and there is always a slight feeling left that you rather enjoy running a highly successful and popular website that allows us to find the alternative 084/7 numbers and so do not necessarily just want to see the whole scam stopped and thus the raison d'etre for your website disappear.

I regret that things fell to the low level of hostile posts on the forum and I will be removing the item in my forum signature which has no doubt been upsetting you.  However I honestly feel that this is not all my fault and that had you been prepared to state publicly the commercial basis on which the site operates much earlier then most of the recent upset could have been avoided.

Forum Admin wrote on Oct 27^th, 2006 at 6:06pm:

Dear All, I thought it would be best for me to make a post on here, ... The website is here to allow visitors to save money on their phone calls, and has been doing so for almost 7 years now. ... Unfortunately regardless of what has been said, I can confirm that the website is not making 'a profit'.  Since the recent publicity, the increase in traffic has meant that running costs, etc are higher than normal (and that doesn't include the extra charges for the new server - setup costs and ongoing costs.) - The majority of months, I am having to top-up the income received from banners in order to pay for the server costs, and keep the site up and running. I haven't gone into detail on this previously, as the finances, and how much I spend out of my own pocket are not the type of things that should be posted on a public forum. Unfortunately almost every banner that has been placed on the website has received a complaint by one particular forum member.

Thank you for the kind and modest explanation, Daniel, though much of it should be superfluous as not many people could have believed that your integrity should be in question.


I am hoping that you are subscribed to this thread and will soon remove the rather inappropriate poll attached to it, and remove this remark too.

Remarkably my Poll on whether people are for or against the GrabAGrand banner ad was removed at almost the exact same time as andy9's post appeared.

Now I didn't think that andy9 has forum moderator rights does he? ::)

NGMsGhost wrote on Oct 27^th, 2006 at 9:17pm:

Remarkably my Poll on whether people are for or against the GrabAGrand banner ad was removed at almost the exact same time as andy9's post appeared. Now I didn't think that andy9 has forum moderator rights does he? ::)

I don't.

There was no need for you to voluntarily admit to this defacement above Daniel's post, as I made it clear proposed that once removed there would be no mention of it.

This is the ORIGINAL dorf - not a ghost, not an imposter nor any ID fraudster!

I had given up posting on this forum, although I have continued to occasionally browse it. I am frankly appalled at the state to which the discourse has recently descended, and how contributors seem to have completely now lost their sense of purpose, and how I and others are being mis-quoted; this has led me to post this response.

Essentially I believe saynoto0870 is a good site and it fulfils what has become a most desirable function as the covert Premium scams proliferate. It is quite clear that for this site to continue to be free at the point of use it must be funded by advertising. For the record I have never claimed otherwise, indeed I posted several times previously supporting the site proprietor, on the basis that the ads automatically often placed by Google could seem to support the use of 0870, whereas the site had no control over these. However, I also believe that because of the conflict of interests relative to the site this forum has become ineffectual now in the campaign fighting against the proliferation and scams of 0870 etc. use with call queuing, to circumvent the banning of call queuing on overt Premium numbers. I therefore joined and now contribute to the forum associated with the original 0870 abuse campaign site. This is focussed entirely on the campaign only.

The actual reasons I ceased to post on this forum were clearly stated in my farewell message posted here, which the site proprietors decided to quite quickly delete! They had also been asked at the beginning of the campaign to place a link on this site to the original campaign site, but they continually declined by default to do this - not even replying to such requests although a corresponding link was maintained for several years back to this site! This precipitated my first suspicions that the proprietors of this site did not really want the 0870 scams to cease. There were thus two reasons which prompted me to cease posting here:

1) This site corrupted my post count and reduced my membership status unjustly (I checked this on Google caches of pages to prove this.)

2) I felt that the conflict of interests was prejudicing the campaign against these scams.

So when the Ghost of NGM or whatever the latest new name he has assumed posts: "...why have leading site members like dorf, mc661 and bigjohn all quit the site because they believed the site owner is more interested in making money from the 084/7 scam spinoff of a high traffic website than in stopping the scam.."

and: ..."I know dorf and one or two other forum members did strongly object to their existence if they were for NGN number selling sites.." for dorf this is completely untrue, and I refute this here. I have never objected to any of the advertising on this site.

I do not propose to post here regularly again, but feel prompted to state the truth against mis-information and false claims being currently made. I would urge all of those who are genuinely concerned with fighting this corruption and these abuses to get back to focussing on the real issues and not on in-fighting and stupidity.

If I may offer one person (though a long time-user)'s opinion, I think this site is doing a fantastic job and I look forward to it guiding me through the minefield of new hidden-premium-rate numbers that we're about to be hit with.

I couldn't care less how this site is funded, as long as it doesn't affect the content, and it's funded enough so that it can continue.
I'll gladly click on an ad every time I use the site, if that helps the finances at all.

cheers

rbakker wrote on Dec 8^th, 2006 at 12:07pm:

I couldn't care less how this site is funded, as long as it doesn't affect the content, and it's funded enough so that it can continue. I'll gladly click on an ad every time I use the site, if that helps the finances at all.

Surely this is a bit the government saying the public don't care what number the DVLA or the Passport Agency ask them to call on or how much it costs so long as the phone call is always answered by the 5th ring and your passport is delivered in one working day? ::) :-/

I'm sure if Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth funded their environmental protection activities by selling high pressure life assurance or timeshare properties to the elderly or vulnerable quite a few people would have a problem with that (myself included) even though you would perhaps see nothing wrong with that so long as no more fluffy little non humans were ever killed and the environment was no longer polluted any further?

In my experience two wrongs don't usually make a right. [smiley=thumbdown.gif]