At last after waiting 15 months the ICO have finally allocated someone to look into my request for the telephone number of a GP surgery.

They have also asked for any other NHS departments that have released their number and also income derived from it. Does anyone know where I can find this information?

Ricardo wrote on Nov 14^th, 2006 at 10:31pm:

They have also asked for any other NHS departments that have released their number and also income derived from it.

I suggest you read through this FOI section of the forum to see if any are relevant.

I've had a quick scan and noticed the following where FOI was successful with regards to getting their underlying number:

FOI Request - NHS Student Grant Helpline
FOI - Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Trust

As for the money received then that's a hard one - this recent news article by the BBC revealed that DWP received £268,000 from their 0845 numbers.

I'm not sure what you've put in your FOI but did you mention that calls to 084x/087x can cost upto 40p/min from some mobile networks so at the very least releasing a geographical number alongside would help stop this.  Also, ringing from overseas on 0844 is impossible I believe and some overseas operators won't connect a call to 0845/0870 due to the uncertainty with revenue share that takes place on these numbers.

Thanks for the reply. I had spotted those two links from the FOI index but had hoped for some more. I had already mentioned the points you highlighted about call costs and calling from overseas.
I will post again when I hear anything interesting from them.

The problem is there hasn't really been a need to do it to something related to the NHS (except surgeries).  Its mostly been other gov depts like police, Inland revenue, DWP, etc.

I'd be inclined to ask ICO why they need that?  I can't see the relevance.  What is really relevant is the surgery is financially gaining from each and every call and so are NEG Plc (assuming it's an 0844 number) so therefore neither want to release an underlying geographical number for fear of losing revenue despite it being at the expense of patients especially those on really low incomes, etc.

If necessary, quote them the following:-


Quote:

Ofcom also believes it is inappropriate for public bodies to use any 08 number exclusively (i.e. without also providing a geographic alternative number) when dealing with people on low incomes or vulnerable groups.

Taken from paragraph 9 from Ofcom's FAQ's on Number Translation Services (ie all 08x numbers) here.

Thanks for the reply. I will make use of your "quote" Will let you know what happens, but don't hold your breath as it may take a bit of time if the ICO's previous form is anything to go by!!

You might find this enlightening

Quote:

The revolutionary self-funding telephone service, designed specifically for general practice.

They say here that they have "871 systems sold and counting".

They started off suggesting to surgeries that by changing to an 0870 number the revenue they would get back would pay for the system. The NHS then moved to ban the use of high rate numbers from April 2005. Details here. This, if implemented, effectively screws the financial reasoning behind the practice's decision to purchase.

You might also find this illuminating.

muppet wrote on Dec 1^st, 2006 at 12:51pm:

They started off suggesting to surgeries that by changing to an 0870 number the revenue they would get back would pay for the system. The NHS then moved to ban the use of high rate numbers from April 2005. Details here. This, if implemented, effectively screws the financial reasoning behind the practice's decision to purchase.

Not really because 0844 numbers generate revenue and with calls that come through during the evening and weekend they will get more revenue than before because of the increased call cost during this period when moving 0870 to 0844.


muppet wrote on Dec 1^st, 2006 at 12:51pm:

You might also find this illuminating.

There is a thread on Janice Gregory AM here.  ;)

Sorry, failed to spot the reference to 0844. 0844 is charged by BT at a whole raft of different rates dependent on the following digits but the rates are relatively low compared to 0870 except at weekends.

By way of comparison one local surgery has an 0844477 number which is charged by BT at g6, 5p a minute at all times. On an 0870 it would be 7.908 during the working day (6 a.m to 6 pm), 3.948 evenings 1.493 weekends (all inc VAT)

In my experience surgeries get the bulk of their calls on weekday mornings when the peak rate would apply and most of the surgeries I work with are open from 08:00 or 08:30 to 17:00 or 17:30. The nett effect of switching from 0870 to 0844 for inbound calls is therefore a reduction in revenue for the surgery. The only point I was trying to make was that the practices are not making the revenues that were illustrated to them at the time the sales presentation was made. They made their decision on figures that turned out not to be deliverable.

Surgeries are a particulary juicy target for non-geographic numbers because their inbound call volumes are much higher than their outbound volumes.

muppet wrote on Dec 1^st, 2006 at 2:37pm:

By way of comparison one local surgery has an 0844477 number which is charged by BT at g6, 5p a minute at all times. On an 0870 it would be 7.908 during the working day (6 a.m to 6 pm), 3.948 evenings 1.493 weekends (all inc VAT)

For the record, 0870 calls are charged at 7p/min daytime, 3.5p/min evening & 1.5p/min weekends.  So you're looking at a maximum of 2p/min more for using an 0870 compared with 0844 47x number during the daytime.

bbb_uk wrote on Dec 1^st, 2006 at 5:57pm:

muppet wrote on Dec 1st, 2006 at 2:37pm: By way of comparison one local surgery has an 0844477 number which is charged by BT at g6, 5p a minute at all times. On an 0870 it would be 7.908 during the working day (6 a.m to 6 pm), 3.948 evenings 1.493 weekends (all inc VAT) For the record, 0870 calls are charged at 7p/min daytime, 3.5p/min evening & 1.5p/min weekends.  So you're looking at a maximum of 2p/min more for using an 0870 compared with 0844 47x number during the daytime.

Add another couple of pointless options to the recording which 'answers' every incoming call and that loss of revenue is quickly recovered.

Quote:

For the record, 0870 calls are charged at 7p/min daytime, 3.5p/min evening & 1.5p/min weekends. So you're looking at a maximum of 2p/min more for using an 0870 compared with 0844 47x number during the daytime.

Also for the record - my pricing was taken straight from BT's online Pricelist.

The majority of 0870's are charged at National NTS except for 087009, 0870185, 0870187 & 0870188 which is charged at g2

The figures I gave are for National NTS and are accurate according to BT's pricing published here.. g2 is a bit less. If you're trying to shoot me down please have the good grace to use the right ammunition! ::)

muppet wrote on Dec 4^th, 2006 at 12:37pm:

Also for the record - my pricing was taken straight from BT's online Pricelist.

They are the old prices.


Quote:

If you're trying to shoot me down please have the good grace to use the right ammunition! ::)

Wasn't trying to shoot you down.  Just pointing out that those rates are the old rates.  From 1st October 2006, BT reduced rates to 0845/0870 numbers.  See here and/or Specialised Number .pdf here (page 30, top-left) where it states calls are 7p/min daytime.  There are exceptions as you point out but I've yet to find a company/organisation using a number that is charged at the lower rate.

Mmmmmm...... Sounds like BT

The Press Release says one thing the published Price List says another. Let's hope their billing systems are more up to date than their Price List.

muppet wrote on Dec 4^th, 2006 at 12:56pm:

The Press Release says one thing the published Price List says another. Let's hope their billing systems are more up to date than their Price List.

The Price List is up to date. The page you have linked to shows BT non-discounted rates and apply to those on Light User Scheme and the like. However, the most basic package is BT Together Option 1 and pricing for that is available here. The rates bbb_uk has quoted are on BT Together, which the majority of people are on.

For any charge bands that aren't mentioned on the Together page, non-discounted rates apply. For example, g2 does not appear on BT Together Option 1 pricing page because it costs the same on LUS as it does on BT Together.

BT Pricing.... as clear as mud.

If it's not one of BT's annoying time-limited pages, THIS PAGE is far clearer.

Sorry, it was time-limited.

One more try - HERE.

Oh I give up.

After a further period of almost 11 months I have had the decision from the ICO. The surgery do not know the geographic number as this number belongs to NEG, who are obviously not going to release it. As far as the ICO are concerned that is the limit of their investigation. They cannot look into any facts such as the actual cost of the calls nor the ability to connect from abroad etc.
NEG are not covered by the FOI Act so there is little hope of being able to extract these numbers from them. The only way this can now be resolved is for the PCTs to force surgeries to change to a different numbering system, but this in turn will presumably have to come from the Dept of Health..
It is now over 2 years since my original request went in to the ICO and I have not achieved my aim, but at least I tried!!
Ricardo

Ricardo wrote on Oct 6^th, 2007 at 10:16pm:

... The surgery do not know the geographic number as this number belongs to NEG, who are obviously not going to release it. ...

I believe that is rubbish. We have seen responses from surgeries that there is a direct 01/02 number for reception and that it is only for staff use.

I am only repeating what was sent ot me from the ICO. There may be other numbers for staff to use but they are not likely to release them for the general public or do you think that they will if requested by the ICO? If these extra numbers do exist then they may or may not be outside the NEG system.
Ricardo

Ricardo wrote on Oct 6^th, 2007 at 10:36pm:

I am only repeating what was sent ot me from the ICO. There may be other numbers for staff to use but they are not likely to release them for the general public or do you think that they will if requested by the ICO? If these extra numbers do exist then they may or may not be outside the NEG system.

I think it's probably all one phone system. So if you could find out the direct number for a member of staff, then reception will be nearby. We have had word that someone has located a direct number, changed the last digit(s) to 0 or 00 and hey presto, got through to reception! If numbers are in a sequence, which is likely if it's all part of the same system, then this may be true, ie reception is the first in the sequence.

Should I ask the ICO to ask the sugery for this information as the case is still open? There is no point in asking NEG as they will flatly refuse especially as they are not covered by the Act.
Ricardo

Ricardo wrote on Oct 6^th, 2007 at 10:45pm:

Should I ask the ICO to ask the sugery for this information as the case is still open? There is no point in asking NEG as they will flatly refuse especially as they are not covered by the Act.

Yes. You are after the number for reception. It's up to you whether you ask for direct numbers for other staff. But if you get one of them, I think it'll be a straightforward task find out other numbers which should be nearby.

Right I will give it a go. No doubt another long wait will ensue.
Ricardo

Ricardo,
well done in your progress so far.   There is no doubt, in my opinion, that the surgery DO know their geo number(s).   My own surgery have admitted to me in writing that they have geo numbers but they refuse to make them availbable..

I also think you should not be so accepting of inevitable delay in getting answers from the COI.   I suggest you press hard for an immediate answer.   Don't accept any delay.   Make it clear to the COI that the surgery DO know their number.  

Could you post on this thread the letters you have had from the COI so that we may see exactly what they have said?   There may be nuances in the wording which we could evaluate.

According to the reply from the ICO, they have spoken with NEG and they have said that the line is converted to a digital line, if it is not already one, and then they allocate the new number. The agreement with the surgery is for the rental of the new system and the surgery only know the 0844 number. As such I do not see that the underlying number will be made available.
It is possible that different surgeries have different contracts/set ups with NEG or could be with a different supplier for their phone systems, which may explain why your surgery has confirmed that they know the number but still will not release it.
Ricardo

They're still lying to you.

You'll find that the staff at the Surgery all know the geographical number(s) and devious wording like saying that such numbers are "not available to patients or the public" gives that away.  They're good politician-like  'economical with the truth' weasel words but not the truth.

Ricardo wrote on Oct 7^th, 2007 at 9:55pm:

According to the reply from the ICO, they have spoken with NEG and they have said that the line is converted to a digital line, if it is not already one, and then they allocate the new number. The agreement with the surgery is for the rental of the new system and the surgery only know the 0844 number. As such I do not see that the underlying number will be made available. It is possible that different surgeries have different contracts/set ups with NEG or could be with a different supplier for their phone systems, which may explain why your surgery has confirmed that they know the number but still will not release it. Ricardo

I take it that "digital" means they have a VOIP connection.   This may be true.   However, I would find it very hard to believe that whenever a doctor or a member of the surgery staff call the surgery from outside they use the 0844 number.    

Perhaps you should ask, under the FOI, for all numbers in use by the surgery, and whether staff use the same number, 0844,  to call into the surgery.    It would also be interesting to know what is the maximum queue length  within the system and the number of calls taken per day, per week, on average and the peak volumes.    Also, what is the largest queue length actually experienced since the system was installed.  

I know these are fairly deep questions, but we the public, have a legitimate reason for asking.    The NHS surgeries are totally paid for by us, through our taxes, and we have a right to access to our surgeries.    Why should some surgeries be allowed to charge a premium on that access, while the majoity of patients can call in at "normal" rates?

I will try and get a letter off to the ICO in the next few days and see if they can get the information that has been suggested.
Ricardo

DAY LIGHT ROBBERY :'( >:( >:( >:(

Can somebody please clarify this document from FLEXTEC on the ofcom site http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/personal_numbering/responses/Flextelresponse.pdf

If I am reading it correctly the prices are hiked over and above the local call rate and with the 0844 number a 3 minute call from a mobile TO A DOCTORS could cost UPTO  £1.50 I am no expert but is this correct.


Quote:

At the present time there are no guidelines, as to the form of OCP tariffs. Nor, surprisingly, has Ofcom attempted to regulate this area e.g. the quality and ease of access to this vital consumer guidance. In fact Ofcom has studiously ignored mobile tariffs in all of its recent consultations. Here is an example of the full table expanded from that given by Ofcom recently12 which only dealt with the cost from a BT Public Payphone! To make it realistic we’ve averaged the call cost over a typical 3 minute call. Daytime calls, worst case pricing to show risk to consumers for a typical 3 minute call e.g to doctors or public services Operator Landline 0844 0845 0870 0871 BT 9p 15p 12p 24p 30p BT Payphone 30p 42p 50p 50p 50p Orange 45p 75p 75p 75p 75p Three 45p 45p 45p 45p 45p Virgin 45p 30p 30p 30p 30p O2 75p 105p 105p 105p 105p T-Mobile 90p 120p 120p 120p 120p Vodafone 90p 180p 180p 180p 180p Prepay mobile cited - for low income families, who cannot afford BT line rental.

~ Edited by Dave: Quote box and table added

bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 11^th, 2007 at 7:42am:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/personal_numbering/responses/Flextelresponse.pdf

Interesting. Anybody else notice how, on the last page, we are described as being an "anarchic website"?

bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 11^th, 2007 at 7:42am:

If I am reading it correctly the prices are hiked over and above the local call rate and with the 0844 number a 3 minute call from a mobile TO A DOCTORS could cost UPTO  £1.50 I am no expert but is this correct.

That has always been the case. The "local call rate" for any one subscriber at any one time is, by definition, the cost of a call to a local 01/02 number. This varies by tariff, as well as time. 0844/0871 numbers are generally the same rate from all landline providers on all tariffs.

Hi Newbie here, used the website for many years but only just joined the Forum, the main reason being my Doctors Surgery this week has now gone to a 0844 number and I am looking for any advice. I have just had an email for the Office Manager which was rubbish and I have replied, and I have notified my MP who is a good man., any other advice of how to fight this would be appreciated. I will try over the weekend to read as much as I can on here. :'(