Just a message to say to anyone thinking of changing Broadband ISP that they should not consider Entanet Resellers Freeola (www.freeola.com) who disgracefully use 0871 numbers for all customer contact and then have the audacity to claim they are charged at a "standard national rate of 10p per minute".

I would be interested to know if they have any printed marketing material or brochures so that a formal complaint against them can be filed with the ASA.

If anyone wants to take broadband service from the good quality Entanet broadband platform then they would be better off using www.adsl24.co.uk who charge lower prices than Freeola for the same service and who now use 0800 numbers for all customer contact.

It makes my blood boil that the useless Ofcom still does precisely nothing to stop companies like Freeola claiming that 0871 is National Rate.



~Edited by bbb_uk: Amended title

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2006 at 12:59pm:

Just a message to say to anyone thinking of changing Broadband ISP that they should not consider Entanet Resellers Freeola (www.freeola.com) who disgracefully use 0871 numbers for all customer contact and then have the audacity to claim they are charged at a "standard national rate of 10p per minute". I would be interested to know if they have any printed marketing material or brochures so that a formal complaint against them can be filed with the ASA. If anyone wants to take broadband service from the good quality Entanet broadband platform then they would be better off using www.adsl24.co.uk who charge lower prices than Freeola for the same service and who now use 0800 numbers for all customer contact. It makes my blood boil that the useless Ofcom still does precisely nothing to stop companies like Freeola claiming that 0871 is National Rate.

I agree that the offer from www.adsl.co.uk is a better deal but do you think that any complaint about freeola's statement that they are charging 10p/min for support would succeed?

They clearly advise that support calls to 0871 will cost 10p/min from anywhere in the country; they are not claiming this is THE national rate (whatever that is).

Caveat emptor?



~Edited by bbb_uk: Amended title

farci wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2006 at 2:31pm:

They clearly advise that support calls to 0871 will cost 10p/min from anywhere in the country; they are not claiming this is THE national rate (whatever that is).

On their home page they clearly claim that 0871 at 10p per minute is a standard national rate and not that it is a revenue sharing rate of which they will receive x pence per minute.  I am confident that the ASA would find against this presentation if web page telephone cost claims came under their jurisdiction.




~Edited by bbb_uk: Amended title

NGMsGhost, I'm sorry you have taken issue to Freeola using an 0871 number for its technical support operation.

Clearly you are passionate about your cause but please do not use the expression 'Scammer' to describe Freeola.  I take exception to that and ask that you delete it from your post immediately - I will follow this up if you don't comply.

Please would you advise whether you have spent the same amount of time bringing this to our attention directly as you have spreading the muck publicly?

Unlike many of our competitors, Freeola's technical support operation is not based in India or elsewhere overseas.  We operate a high quality support operation in the UK which is open long hours 7 days a week and manned by trained staff who work for Freeola, not a random call centre contractor.  10p per minute is not unreasonable for high technical support.  And, I would add that free technical support is available to any customer who wishes to use our online facilities.

What would be your suggestion as to the wording on our site?  And before you make your suggestion please be sure to point me in the direction of other companies (especially competitors) who are using such text.

I am happy to try and deal with this constructively but your aggresive rhetoric hasn't exactly got this off to a good start.

Danny Corder
General Manager



~Edited by bbb_uk: Amended title

freeola.com wrote on Nov 29^th, 2006 at 6:24pm:

Clearly you are passionate about your cause but please do not use the expression 'Scammer' to describe Freeola.  I take exception to that and ask that you delete it from your post immediately

I have amended the thread title and removed the word in question as no proof can be found to substantiate it. However, I see nothing wrong with anything else in this thread so I have left everything else.

For the record, you still state here (and possibly other places) that your 0871 contact number is 'national rate'.  This IS misleadingand if an official complaint was made to trading standards/ASA then they would ask you to remove all references to 'national rate'.

The ASA, Ofcom & Trading Standards are all of the agreement that describing such numbers as local or national is misleading.  See here & here.  In fact ASA guidelines now stipulate you must specify the cost of the call and the fact that it only applies to BT landline and calls from other networks may cost more.  For example, "Calls cost 10p/min from a BT landline, calls from other networks may vary."

freeola.com wrote on Nov 29^th, 2006 at 6:24pm:

Unlike many of our competitors, Freeola's technical support operation is not based in India or elsewhere overseas.  We operate a high quality support operation in the UK which is open long hours 7 days a week and manned by trained staff who work for Freeola, not a random call centre contractor.  10p per minute is not unreasonable for high technical support.  [...]

It may well be reasonable to pay 10p/min for high quality technical support (as opposed to being stuck in a queue for sixty minutes waiting for technical support), and if this is in fact the case, I believe there are 09 numbers charged at a corresponding rate, which is the correct range for such support.

The problem is that the freeola web site describes 0871 numbers as "national rate". This is simply untrue.

<<
http://freeola.com/support/

Or telephone: 0871 210 9977. Recorded information 24 hours per day and technicians between 9.00am and 8.00pm Monday to   Friday and 9.00am to 6.00pm on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. Calls charged at national rate.
>>

freeola.com wrote on Nov 29^th, 2006 at 6:24pm:

NGMsGhost, I'm sorry you have taken issue to Freeola using an 0871 number for its technical support operation. Clearly you are passionate about your cause but please do not use the expression 'Scammer' to describe Freeola.  I take exception to that and ask that you delete it from your post immediately - I will follow this up if you don't comply. Unlike many of our competitors, Freeola's technical support operation is not based in India or elsewhere overseas.  We operate a high quality support operation in the UK which is open long hours 7 days a week and manned by trained staff who work for Freeola, not a random call centre contractor.  10p per minute is not unreasonable for high technical support.  And, I would add that free technical support is available to any customer who wishes to use our online facilities. I am happy to try and deal with this constructively but your aggresive rhetoric hasn't exactly got this off to a good start.[/color][/size]

Incredibly you even use 0871 for your Sales number compared to 0800 for your your direct Entanet reseller competitors www.adsl24.co.uk   Now if using soon to be ICSTIS regulated 0871 premium rate for your main sales number isn't a folly of an incredible scale then I don't know what is.  Clearly when you took this number you did it because you were offered a nice big juicy revenue share at 5p per minute at all times or whatever and I just won't accept any ridiculous claim that you really thought it was National Rate.  The only number that was once the same as National Rate but is no longer is 0870 charged at 7p per minute plus 3p connection in the day time but only 1.5p per minute at the weekend.  Your horrible covert premium rate 0871 number still costs 10p per minute at the weekend too.

What I am really happy about though is that this site is now important enough for word of criticism of your company's 0871 number on it to reach you and it to be worth the time of a firm using one of these scam numbers to come along feigning hurt and surprise.

The only acceptable way to describe these numbers is "calls cost 10p per minute at all times from uk landlines" and to which in my view the additional words should be added "of which we receive 5p per minute because we really don't want you to call us".

There have been clear guidances from the ASA and Ofcom that these numbers must not be called National Rate.  They are not National Rate and they never have been. They are covert premium rate.  The only other people I know of who like using them are Easyjet and Ryanair who make it very clear that they don't want their customers to call them.  By the way Ryanair and Easyjet are regularly criticised for the use of these numbers on this site but they have not complained because they are quite unashamed that their purpose is to deter callers from getting in touch with them.

Many companies have been attacked here and also had rulings against them by the ASA for claiming that 0870 is National Rate.  Claiming that 0871 is National Rate is much worse and far more misleading.  That is why Ofcom is about to make 0871 numbers officially Premium Rate.  The only numbers that are National Rate in the UK are those starting 01 or 02 which are included in fixed price calling plans for all 01/02 numbers such as BT Option 3 or TalkTalk Talk 3 and which qualify for use with bundled inclusive minutes from mobiles.

There have been whole Ofcom consultations on this topic which someone like you interested only in the lure of revenue share seems to have taken no notice of.  See

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsoptions/

and

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/

and

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2006/02/nr20060223

Also you can read below how unhappy people are about the use of 084 and 087 numbers because of the way add to £10 to £20 per month on most people's home phone bills (a large part of which falls into the hands of unscrupulous telecoms middlemen such as the firm which sold you your 0871 number).  0871 are a really horrible scam because they deliberately aim to prey on the idea that the code prefix is similar to 0870 which was once charged by BT at National Rate (although even then excluded from BT Option 3) but hasn't been for over two years. Whereas 0871 is a much newer invention and is a blatant covert premium rate that has never had any connection with National Rate but just aims to exploit the similarity in numbering to mislead customers.  That is why we become so angry when we see a company like yours disgracefully claiming 0871 is National Rate.

I am prepared to amend the subject of my post to say "Claims by Freeola that 0871 is a National Rate Are A Scam" rather than Scammer ISP Freeola but I am not prepared to do any more than that until such time as you either remove the claims from your website that 0871 is National Rate and replace it with the rate of the call per minute or better still replace your 0871 number for Sales with a more ethical number.  For instance you can get an 0844 number at 1p per minute at all times to your callers.  Or you could get an 0800 number from www.call08.com at just 2p per minute to you for receiving calls.  Shortly Ofcom will release 03 NGN numbers which will be charged to callers the same as 01/02 and part of inclusive call packages but your company will have to pay something for the call redirection services although less than with 0800.

We have tried in the past here writing nice constructive letters to people like Royal Bank of Scotland and Sky using 0870 and calling them National Rate only to receive back letters which are a pack of lies trying to claiming black is white and that they are charged at National Rate when they are not.  Since most users of revenue share numbers are in fact entirely aware of the consequences but just happy to pile on the scam bandwagon it is a waste of time to write to companies using these numbers and better to expose the untruths in public and hope that this will shame them in to no longer making these blatantly false claims.

See these various references to the views of public figures and organisations on 0845 and 0870 numbers.  The public disapproval of 0871 numbers is far, far greater - hence Ofcom making them Premium Rate.  As you say some other ISPs do use 0871 or 09 premium rate numbers for technical support but unlike your company they do not try to misdescribe them to customers as being charged at National Rate.

See:-

The view of a county council trading standards department

Para 1.3 Page 1 of www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and

the view of the CEO of BT Retail, Ian Livingston

http://business.scotsman.com/banking.cfm?id=764772005

and

two recent guidances from the Advertising Standards Authority

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+ on.htm

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and

the Parliamentary Early Day motion deploring the use of 0870 telephone numbers by government departments

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&; amp;SESSION=875

and

Another guidance from the Committee of Advertising Practice of the Advertising Standards Authority

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+prov iders.htm

and Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own local district council where they agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

NGMsGhost,

I have no idea where to start - you really need to calm down a little.

Firstly, I am perfectly happy to consider your comments on the words 0871 and national rate being used together.  Regardless of what you may think, my understanding was that this text was correct.  Naturally there is some dispute and I will seriously check this.  However, your methods of bringing this to our attention stink - accusing us of being scammers - what on earth are you on?  Why didn't you just call us or write a letter - we're perfectly accessible at Freeola.  I guess it wasn't public enough or sufficiently self-serving for you.

I'm not going to go into any great detail to defend our use of these numbers but we face a simple choice.  We can either cheapen our technical support operation by outsourcing overseas or contracting out to a call centre firm and turning it into a thoroughly poor quality option.  Or, we could put the price of all our services up and penalise even those customers who don't even avail themselves of our technical support.  We're not prepared to do that so we offer a high quality support service on the end of a 10p/minute number. And, as I said before, our customers are more than welcome to use online methods to contact us for free.

I believe you should give the British public more credit, we happen to think that they are more than capable of understanding what 10p/min means.

Now, we'll do what we need to do and you do what you want to do but DO NOT libel us and do not make claims that are untrue otherwise you and this board will hear from us again in a more formal manner.  If you want to have a constructive conversation about this you're more than welcome to call me on 0871 210 9977 (calls charged at the apparently not national rate of 10p/minute) where you can tell the operator who you are, leave your number with them and advise the operator that you would like a call back from me.  Or you can write to 92-102 East Street, Braintree, Essex CM7 3JW.

I'm unlikely to make any further comment on here - it doesn't seem very constructive.

Regards,
Danny Corder

freeola.com wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 8:39am:

Firstly, I am perfectly happy to consider your comments on the words 0871 and national rate being used together.  Regardless of what you may think, my understanding was that this text was correct.  Naturally there is some dispute and I will seriously check this.

If you check out the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) links I provided in my previous post, or any of NGMsGhost's links.

Basically, BT charge 3p/min maximum to call a geographical (those beginning 01 or 02) number regardless of distance.  So calling from London to Scotland will only cost 3p/min maximum (other telephone providers generally charge less than this - a lot less in some cases).  However, a call to your number costs 10p/min from a BT landline and upto 40p/min from most mobiles.

You have probably been mislead by your 0871 supplier that the call is only charged at local/national rate.  This is very common and Ofcom are looking into this as it is misleading you (businesses) and in the end us end customers/consumers.

freeola.com wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 8:39am:

NGMsGhost, I have no idea where to start - you really need to calm down a little.

You still dodge the fact that your Sales number is on an 0871.  That is just really dumb.  Your Entanet competitors do not use 0871 numbers at all and especially not Sales - there is a reason.

I am perfectly justified in being upset with your company for breaching numerous guidances on the correct method of describing the cost of calls to 0871.  You clearly knew perfectly well these numbers are not National Rate since you admit you picked them because you wanted the high revenue share to prop up the costs of your technical support operation.  I'm sure there isn't a special exemption for people in Essex not having to be as aware of the structure of uk phone charges as everyone else in business is there?

The use of 0871 numbers seems to be rather in line with your general strategy since you offer an artificially subsidised subscription for 3 months but then put prices up to £5 above what your competitors are charging for the same service after that for the rest of the 12 months.  This is still not a bad deal for someone needing a new connection but not a good deal for someone needing to migrate to you.

Any damage to your company from using 0871 will be done by customer perceptions of any company that has the nerve/stupidity to use 0871 for its sales line and then to make matters worse makes deliberately misleading statements that 0871 is National Rate - consult the Advertising Standards Authority if you don't believe me.  Broadband is a highly competitive marketplace.  Also re technical support my understanding is that once customers are on board with you Entanet will do that and not your company - Freeola.  Thus it is the phone numbers offered by Entanet for support that will be the relevant issue in that regard?  I could be wrong on that point I will accept so please explain if you operate differently from www.ukfsn.org or www.adsl24.co.uk?

I don't need to calm down at all.  My upset with the inaccurate statements being made by your company about the cost of calling your 0871 numbers is perfectly justified.  It is you who needs to get on and remove the misleading claims about the cost of calling them.

bbb_uk wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 10:25am:

You have probably been mislead by your 0871 supplier that the call is only charged at local/national rate.  This is very common and Ofcom are looking into this as it is misleading you (businesses) and in the end us end customers/consumers.

I'm not so sure about that bbb_uk as Freeola also tries to defend the use of their 0871 number on the grounds of their high quality technical support.  This suggests they in fact know 0871 numbers do cost extra and that they think it is justified to pay for the cost of their technical support.  And/or perhaps they have 0871 to deter people from ringing them unnecessarily for support on the basis that many people do known 0871 costs 10p per minute at all times and it puts them off calling.

Perhaps if Ofcom would mandate a compulsory call price announcement that 0871 are not standard National Rate and that x pence per minute of your call charge is not being paid to the company you are calling then there could be no doubt left about the matter.

As BobbyBoy has said before it is Ofcom's disgraceful failure to properly enforce the EU Misleading Advertising Directive that is at the heart of the whole issue here.

NGN I'm really not interesting in your obnoxious rants about how you feel we should do business and what a terrible state the industry is in - save them for somebody who has nothing better to do.

I'm trying to be constructive here and work out if we're doing something wrong - thank you to the moderator for making things clear without the additional sermon.  I have today issued instructions to change the wording which should hopefully bring us into line with the correct standards.  Given that it already says 10p/min we clearly have nothing to hide and wish to be as honest as we can as to the costs.

For your reference, we operate our own technical support operation here in Braintree complete with short queue times and trained, helpful and knowledgeable staff.  Other Entanet resellers arrange to have Entanet to provide their support - we don't.

This really is the last post - if you have any other complaints, do it direct please - you have my details.

freeola.com wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 10:49am:

For your reference, we operate our own technical support operation here in Braintree complete with short queue times and trained, helpful and knowledgeable staff.  Other Entanet resellers arrange to have Entanet to provide their support - we don't.

Personally I would rather deal with Entanet for technical support as they are much larger and are open 24/7 whereas your firm presumably is not?  Also they don't use 0871 numbers for support.

If you want to lose business then please go on using 0871 numbers for sales as most customers seeing those numbers who are informed and knowledgeable (as the typical Entanet supplier minded broadband customer normally tends to be) will simply not call them and avoid any firm which is using them to try to sell their products.

It seems to me somebody said to you "oy mate here's a good way to make some extra dosh out of the punters who call you" and you failed to ask any further questions about it.  In life there's no such thing as a "free lunch"

farci wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2006 at 2:31pm:

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 22nd, 2006 at 12:59pm: Just a message to say to anyone thinking of changing Broadband ISP that they should not consider Entanet Resellers Freeola (www.freeola.com) who disgracefully use 0871 numbers for all customer contact and then have the audacity to claim they are charged at a "standard national rate of 10p per minute". I would be interested to know if they have any printed marketing material or brochures so that a formal complaint against them can be filed with the ASA. If anyone wants to take broadband service from the good quality Entanet broadband platform then they would be better off using www.adsl24.co.uk who charge lower prices than Freeola for the same service and who now use 0800 numbers for all customer contact. It makes my blood boil that the useless Ofcom still does precisely nothing to stop companies like Freeola claiming that 0871 is National Rate. I agree that the offer from www.adsl.co.uk is a better deal but do you think that any complaint about freeola's statement that they are charging 10p/min for support would succeed? They clearly advise that support calls to 0871 will cost 10p/min from anywhere in the country; they are not claiming this is THE national rate (whatever that is). Caveat emptor? ~Edited by bbb_uk: Amended title

farci,

your link to adsl24 is different to the original link provided by the OP.

In fact the link you provided goes to adsl2go which provides the following for any contact by telephone:

For any enquiries or for further information please contact us on 0906 470 0359   :'( or you can write to us at:

ADSL2GO
101 Abercorn Street
Paisley
PA3 4AT

I80870_numbers wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 11:46am:

farci, your link to adsl24 is different to the original link provided by the OP. In fact the link you provided goes to adsl2go which provides the following for any contact by telephone: For any enquiries or for further information please contact us on 0906 470 0359   :'( or you can write to us at: ADSL2GO 101 Abercorn Street Paisley PA3 4AT

Oops.

It should have been www.adsl24.co.uk  Sorry about the error.

freeola.com wrote on Nov 29^th, 2006 at 6:24pm:

I am happy to try and deal with this constructively but your aggresive rhetoric hasn't exactly got this off to a good start.

I am happy to see that Freeola has now removed from its website all claims that its 0871 numbers are charged at National Rate and used the correct ASA approved wording for describing them.  My only sorrow is that it has yet to see the light on the damage it could be doing to its own business by using 0871 numbers, especially for sales.

In an effort to be more positive and helpful to Freeola can I make a suggestion.  This is why not get yourself an 0800 number from the cheapest supplier (www.call08.com) and replace your current 0871 sales number with this 0800 number on your website for a month and see if it results in a big increase in the number of potential broadband customers calling you who then also convert through into actual customers.  Clearly what you use for technical support is down to you but I must point out that www.aceinternet.co.uk recently issued a big press release providing its geographic phone number for all calls including techncial support because it had found customers objected to paying extra for 0845 and 0870.  Having said that Ace do seem to have some very long call queuing timess which is no doubt why their customers especially objected to the use of numbers other than standard true national rate 01 and 02 numbers.  Also www.newnet.co.uk recently changed from using 0870 to 0845 numbers for tech support again due to numbers of customer objections against the cost of calling 0870 numbers.  So these things do matter in marketing terms.

Freeola I realise that the appearance of this discussion on this website has been rather a shock for you but I doubt just a polite email to your firm would have worked and also I hope in the long run your realising how unpopular these numbers are may cause you to avoid them and that this may allow you to grow your business and gain greater numbers of happy customers.

Also if you really don't understand why customers only want to call numbers starting 01 or 02 then take a look at how cheap fixed pricing calling plans to all UK and EU normal numbers now are.  As little as £4.33 per month (£1 per month for 6 months and then £5.99 for 12 months after that) for unlimited calls to these numbers on an 18 month contract with www.euphony.co.uk  Whereas just one 43 minute call to your tech support number would cost £4.30 :o

The Freeola website now says:

Quote:

Or telephone: 0871 210 9977. Recorded information 24 hours per day and technicians between 9.00am and 8.00pm Monday to Friday and 9.00am to 6.00pm on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. Calls to Freeola Support or Sales charged at 10p/min at all times to BT customers (mobile and other networks may vary).

Much better.  :)

Whilst I would really like to see these sorts of services on 09xx prefixed numbers, I think that this is a suitable compromise and will hopefully alleviate the misconception that 0871 is "national rate" and may even put doubt into people's minds that the similar 0870 prefix is infact more expensive than a geographical call.

Dave wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 3:28pm:

Much better.  :)

Steady on Dave.  All that Freeola have so far done is replace wording that was actually misleading from an ASA or Trading Standards point of view with wording that is not misleading.

But they still use 0871 numbers at 10p per minute at all times for all their main points of contact and so far as I know this site has not come up with a geographic alternative for either them or any other Entanet reseller or for Entanet itself in either our Verified or Unverified numbers list.  :(

If Freeola actually publised their geographic number or an 0800 number for sales and say only an 0845 number for support then I think we could agree that there had actually been a more worthwhile improvement from a consumer point of view.

Hi, I'm new here (as you can see)
I found this website rather usefull to look for different numbers, but where do you guys get off ranting like you do.
If you have a problem with dialing and paying for 08xx numbers and the companies involved. WELL DONT!
Some peopl don't care, I would rather not, and if I find a different number on here then great, if I can't then there you go.
I supose some of the members of this board don't like to have to pay for anything, think everything is too expensive, and what it all for nothing, get a life, don't like the companies, dont use them, it's rather simple really.

And on another note
I think it is a disgrace that you have published a web site that tries to do away with non geographical numbers, and tries to push people to find a normal telephone number for the service they require (and a great idea for this site, has help me out already, but at the same breath having adds that advertise the selling and provisions of said numbers, and no doubt gaining a revenue stream from the same.
What a Hypercritical way to behave. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

"If you have a problem with dialing and paying for 08xx numbers and the companies involved. WELL DONT! "

So what do you propose the relative of the London Bombing should have done when given an 0870 number - not bothered. What do you propose those poor people needing to call a I think it was a Social Security number that made in excess of a quarter of a million pounds out of the use of an 0845 number do? Etc, Etc. What about the scams that use these numbers for you to call back. What if you need to call from outside of the UK as relatives of the London Bombing needed to do or you have a PAYG phone and are kept waiting until you run out of time.


And please bear in mind you have benefited from the numbers on this site because the people who post care.

Finally re the last point you raise. This has cropped up over and over again. They don't have control over the ads.

say_what wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 5:31pm:

Hi, I'm new here (as you can see) I found this website rather usefull to look for different numbers. I think it is a disgrace that you have published a web site that tries to do away with non geographical numbers, and tries to push people to find a normal telephone number for the service they require (and a great idea for this site, has help me out already, but at the same breath having adds that advertise the selling and provisions of said numbers, and no doubt gaining a revenue stream from the same. What a Hypercritical way to behave. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

So one minute you find the site useful to look for alternatives for 084/7 numbers which implies you know they are a scam and cost you extra and don't want to call them and pay the extra cost.  The next minute you say it is a disgrace we are trying to do away with 084/7 numbers and the valuable revenue stream you gain from them.  Talk about illogical, irrational and contradictory.

We are quite happy to see the NGN system retained as a technology but what we want is for all normal NGN calls with no added value element (added value being sex chat line or legal advice line on the whole as these were never previously delivered by phone before NGNs and would not exist without the revenue share) to use the new 0370 prefix where the call centre operator pays for any valued added call routing features that they and not the customer derive the benefit from.  These calls will then be charged as per 01/02 calls and included in inclusive calling plans.  And all premium rate numbers involving revenue share of any kind should be on 09 with compulsory call price announcements of the rate per minute and the amount going to the company or their telco provider that is not involved in paying for the call.  Of course your friends at Ofcom are going to allow the whole scam inudstry to carry on unbridled though on 0844, 0845 and 0871 as they are in the pockets of the scammers like yourselves.

This despicable industry has only flourished because it has been built on deceit and untruths about the cost of the calls.

In the free enterprise USA where anti trust laws stop cartel like anti competitive behaviour of the 084/7 kind and require full price disclosure 0800 numbers for customer contact are the norm

To paint us the campaigners as unreasonable is outrageous.  It shows how effective our campaign now is that you the scammers who now like to pose as ordinary consumers on this website acctually think it is worth making posts.

As to the Grab A Grand Scam ad on this site I agree it is inappropriate in the context of this site because it has the same morals of the gutter as 09 quiz shows like The Mint.  However the owner of the site Daniel is content to leave it there and he claims that the income he derives from this banner ad and others does not exceed his costs in running the site.  As Daniel's business is a private company and does not have publicly available accounts we will obviously have to take his word on that point.

Clearly Grab A Grand must pay a lot more per hit than any other link Daniel could put on the site as in view of the criticism he has received over it if there was an equally profitable but less ethically objectionable link he could use I'm sure he would have done it by now.

By the way if you only like looking up alternative numbers even though strangely in the next breath you claim we want to get something for nothing (if this is how you feel then why are you doing it) then don't read the forum and just use the alternative numbers facility.

say_what wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 5:31pm:

If you have a problem with dialing and paying for 08xx numbers and the companies involved. WELL DONT!

And how would you suggest people reach their local Police force or Council who are natural monopolies when they only use an 0845 number that costs £1.75 for 15 minutes from a BT Payphone for an old pensioner compared to 30p for 15 minutes for a normal 01 or 02 number.

It seems obvious you are surely one of the NGN scammer brigade just posing as a consumer from the type of comments you have made.  No one else other than an NGN number scammer or call centre scammer profiting from their existence could get so upset over our attempts to end the scamming.

Have just discovered that the wholesaler used by Freeola to provide their broadband service are also misleading customers over the cost of telephone calls by claiming that 0870 is National Rate

www.entanet.co.uk/index.php?id=104


Quote:

National rate phone line 0870 224 3494

While it is their choice as to whether they should be using an 0870 number or not they should only be describing it as "Calls cost up to 8p per minute from BT landlines" and not as National Rate.

I wonder if I need to start another thread under the name of Entanet to draw their attention to this matter?

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 3:53pm:

Dave wrote on Nov 30th, 2006 at 3:28pm: Much better.  :) Steady on Dave.  All that Freeola have so far done is replace wording that was actually misleading from an ASA or Trading Standards point of view with wording that is not misleading. But they still use 0871 numbers at 10p per minute at all times for all their main points of contact and so far as I know this site has not come up with a geographic alternative for either them or any other Entanet reseller or for Entanet itself in either our Verified or Unverified numbers list.  :( If Freeola actually publised their geographic number or an 0800 number for sales and say only an 0845 number for support then I think we could agree that there had actually been a more worthwhile improvement from a consumer point of view.

At the end of the day, we can't stop companies from using premium rate numbers whether they're 08 or 09 numbers.  It is entirely upto the company concerned.  It's not good customer services to use a premium rate number hence why they all use 087x range instead so not to draw attention to the fact they're using premium rate numbers.

As the company concerned are following ASA, Trading Standards, Ofcom's guidelines on use of these numbers (ie clearly state that calls cost 10p/min) then if they lose customers or gain less customers than normal then they'll learn the hard way that using such an expensive number is not what potential or current customers want.

Similar thing about companies using 09x like Philips do (to a certain degree).  They do so at their own risk of alienating their current or potential customers.

I must admit myself, I only signed up to Freeola due to the 3 month contract with no penalties if you leave.

I was going to go with Aquiss or IDnet but couldnt afford the activation fee, seems good so far though.

Only bad thing was BT messed up my line(its new) so I phoned up sales and was on hold for about 20 minutes before getting through, and the guy on phone seemed uninterested.

Their email support is very fast though! I sent an email and it was replied to 6 hours later, and again a few days ago as I had a phone number change on my line, and it was changed within 12 hours!

ryouga wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 9:57pm:

I must admit myself, I only signed up to Freeola due to the 3 month contract with no penalties if you leave.

Once you get to 3 months though why not change to www.ukfsn.org or www.adsl24.co.uk or www.vivaciti.co.uk as their monthly charges are £5 cheaper than Freeola's normal prices for exactly the same service.

Hmmm - must say a very interesting read.

NGM's Ghost, I think that what you have wrote is true in every way, and I must admit I was shocked to see a responce from the company itself,  :o (that is if it's genuine?  ::) )

Personally speaking, I will NOT deal with any company who uses these numbers, especially if they refuse to provide the Geographical number behind the 084* / 087* number.
I think it has taken a while but it does appear that a lot of companies are waking up to the fact that we will NOT be ripped off any longer.

Every time I see these numbers I now ask for the landline number it redirects to, regardless or not if I use the company, I must say that a lot of companies I have spoken to do oblige.  :)

IAVOID0870 wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 11:35pm:

NGM's Ghost, I think that what you have wrote is true in every way, and I must admit I was shocked to see a responce from the company itself,  :o (that is if it's genuine?  ::) )

I am 100% confident the response made was from the MD of Freeola (don't forget its a very small company after all).  Although to be fair I suspect that was his fatal tactical mistake.  Either he should have not responded at all or he should only have appeared in the thread to say he was concerned to hear that his company was not doing the right thing but thanking us for pointing this out and saying the matter had already been attended to.

Now though we discover that Entanet the ADSL wholesaler who supplies these resellers with their broadband product also misdescribes their 0870 number as being National Rate and withholds all 01/02 alternatives.  Disappointing I must say as I had been considering moving my broadband service to one of these internet resellers (definitely not Freeola though).

I suppose I had better start another thread re Entanet misdescribing their 0870 as being National Rate and see if it has the same rapid corrective effect as it did in Freeola's case.  Or rather at least it stopped them deliberately misleading the public about the cost of their 0871 numbers.  Sadly though they still continue to use them. :( >:( :'(

NGMsGhost, don't you think you are getting just a little bit too upset?
I used to work on tech support for Freeola when they were based at Sawbridgeworth, and I can tell you for a FACT that you will get 100% better customer service than you would with an ISP such as Demon (first hand experience of Indian call centers). When I worked at freeola Danny was one of my superiors and he is a genuine guy who knows his stuff..so give him a break. I agree with the 'national rate' wording but if you check the website it has now been changed.

'You still dodge the fact that your Sales number is on an 0871.  That is just really dumb.  Your Entanet competitors do not use 0871 numbers at all and especially not Sales - there is a reason.'

And who are you to give out business advice? How much do you know about Freeola? Ever used them? I mean hey, at least they give a number that you can call..try getting hold of Bulldog sales line...oh wait there isn't one.
Compared to the big players, Freeola is a relatively small ISP but as Danny said you will receive high level support from trained staff in the UK. In fact the only reason I came across this thread is because I am going to be signing up to Freeola in the next month because I didn't want to deal with companies such as Demon and Tiscalli who don't care about their customers!

And I can't believe you have considered against an Entanet reseller because of an 0870 issue, how misinformed you must be..so who are you going to plump for then? AOL? NTL? Even if you DID need to contact Freeola tech support, their FREE email response would be quicker than waiting on hold with a 'big' ISP. Trust me you are a fool if you are going to put this company down

timmygcsc2308 wrote on Dec 4^th, 2006 at 3:27pm:

And I can't believe you have considered against an Entanet reseller because of an 0870 issue, how misinformed you must be..so who are you going to plump for then? AOL? NTL? Even if you DID need to contact Freeola tech support, their FREE email response would be quicker than waiting on hold with a 'big' ISP. Trust me you are a fool if you are going to put this company down

No I would never go to TalkTalk, NTL or Tiscali although actually AOL were quite a good choice for heavy downloaders prior to their acquisition by TalkTalk.  The main companies I would consider as alternative to Freeola and none of whom use 0871 numbers are those top rated for customer support and broadband speed at www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_ratings.php and www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_speed.php?test=8128&month=11&year=2006&submit=View+average+speeds%21

Also I thought you should know that last week I called UKFSN on their London geographic number and got straight through to Jason who's knowledge about the broadband industry and issues with ADSLMax etc was extremely impressive.  As you know www.ukfsn.org are another reseller of Entanet broadband packages and have been in business a long time in ISP terms but they do not levy the £5 per month additional charge that Freeola makes from Month 4 on (clawing back all the month 1 to 3 artificial discount for anyone merely migrating to them rather than getting a new connection).

As a potential customer of Freeola who lost my custom due to their offputting 0871 numbers and extra £5 levy a month after Month 4 over better priced Entanet suppliers I am quite entitled to give my view.

I can tell you that other good quality ISPs listed at www.dslzoneuk.net are able to offer just as fast a broadband service and just as good customer support without using 0871.  IDNet who are also near top rated for customer support and ADSL Max download speed use 0800 numbers and NewNet use 0845 as do Zen.  Had 0871 been used but the 10p per minute been made clear by Freeola that would be one thing.  To use 0871 and then disgracefully try to play dumb about how it should be described (since its obvious from your own comments that Freeola staff know perfectly well what the costs implications of calling 0871 compared to 0870 are)  is just quite outrageous.

We are talking about blatant breaches of ASA rules and trading standards rules here just so Freeola could put a few more pence per minute in its pocket from calls without many of its customers initially realising (due to the National Rate misdescription which is far more outrageous and unforgiveable on 0871 than 0870).

Speaking of which you remind me to start a thread about Entanet calling its 0870 technical support number on its website National Rate.  But at least Entanet have geographic alternatives in the Unverified database on this site which I have checked and are answered on the very first ring.

There are several other decent quality ISPs with fast connections none of whom use 0871 and some of whom use geographic or 0800 numbers.  So what's Freeola's excuse for using 0871 then and calling it National Rate then until we complained loudly about this being heavily misleading?

Oh and what further gets my goat about Freeola deliberately trying to mislead customers over its in any case bad practice in using 0871 numbers is the fact they have the nerve to use the word Free in their brand name and rabbit on about Free services on their website only to rip people off with an 0871 number they didn't admit the true call costs of.

Then on top of that they have withheld their real geographic number deliberately from Directory Enquiries (www.192.com, www.118118.co.uk etc) and also just about anywhere else where Google might find a trace of it.  That tells me the company knew all along the real status of an 0871 number and that it was a covert premium rate and never was or has been National Rate at any time.

By the way congratulations also on re-promoting this thread to the top of the first page of the Non-Geographical Numbers Chat section of the forum.  I'm sure your old boss will be pleased with you about that. ;) ::)

Also I don't know why you guys worry so much about what is on this website about Freeola as by definition anyone misinformed enough to become a Freeola customer despite its prominent use of 0871 numbers will not be someone who never visits the www.saynoto0870.com website or especially its discussion forum. :P

timmygcsc2308 wrote on Dec 4^th, 2006 at 3:27pm:

Even if you DID need to contact Freeola tech support, their FREE email response would be quicker than waiting on hold with a 'big' ISP.

What happens if the very reason you need to contact them is due to having no broadband access?  A quick visit down the library to email them and await their reply!

I personally don't mind if they use premium rate numbers as that is upto each individual company.  However, what I personally object to is the use of these numbers as stealth premium rate numbers.

If Freeola was to use an 09x number charged at 10p/min (the same rate as a call to 0871 from a landline only), then Freeola would get less customers simply because most consumers are aware that 09x numbers are premium rate numbers and that the company called is getting a share of the call costs.

In most cases, this doesn't happen to those using 084x/087x numbers as most consumers think these are charged at either local or national rate and even if they did know how much the call was (in most cases this is doubtful as teleco's don't like to publish these rates) they would never have guessed that the company (and government departments) that use these numbers are actually receiving money from the call just like they would on an 09x number except consumers don't know (in most cases) about the revenue share on 084/087x numbers unlike 09x numbers.

bbb_uk wrote on Dec 4^th, 2006 at 6:37pm:

In most cases, this doesn't happen to those using 084x/087x numbers as most consumers think these are charged at either local or national rate and even if they did know how much the call was (in most cases this is doubtful as teleco's don't like to publish these rates) they would never have guessed that the company (and government departments) that use these numbers are actually receiving money from the call just like they would on an 09x number except consumers don't know (in most cases) about the revenue share on 084/087x numbers unlike 09x numbers.

But also bbb calling 0871 "National Rate" is far more of an outrageous thing to do than calling 0870 National Rate which does at least have a historical basis to it, even though I'm perfectly convinced that all the call centres who continue to misuse the term only do so because they think they can get away with it and not because they actually really think its National Rate.

I had some ridiculous conversation with a Tesco central call centre customer services supervisor (which was only necessary because one of their dimwit customer service advisers who incredibly all call themselves customer service managers had refused to just send me some vouchers for some strawberries that were dissolving into gunge in my fridge a day before Use By date and insisted I had to return to the store with them before deliberately cutting me off when I said this was not standard company procedure) in the course of which I complained about their store 0845 numbers for calling all Tesco stores only for this woman "a so called "supervisor") to tell me they were a local rate call.  When I told her to check her BT phone bill for calls after 6pm on weekday she still wouldn't have it and insisted they were local.  Then when I asked if she didn't find 0845 numbers were excluded from bundled minutes on her mobile phone contract she admitted that she did indeed have a contract mobile and had found this to be the case.  Incredible really but I honestly think companies only select as call centre workers those who are easily brainwashable and do exactly as they are told (that is about 50% or more of personality types in the UK to be quite honest) and don't argue against company dogma  and I'm sure these exact same people would have been telling me there were "no extermination camps" some years ago and that was definitely the case because the company's management had told them it was so.

As to the highly inappropriately named Freeola (more like Payola if you ask me) through their contributions to their thread I think they have only served to further blacken the already very poor image created by their use of 0871 numbers for all customer contact including sales.  The only hope to redeem themselves now would seem to be to get an 0800 number for sales and an 0845 number or geographic phone number for technical support as fast as possible.

TimmyGCSC, as you have probably already spotted there is little point in speaking up for common-sense on this site.  Even though I have taken the advice in good faith and acted upon it within 24 hours or so, this NGMsGhost is still spitting blood at full whack and is about, I think, to move onto our technical partners and pick a fight with them.

At one point Freeola was plastered across this forum as scammers - that's putting us in the same club (according to the rest of this site) as fraudulent telemarketers and the 'you've won a prize to the caribbean - call our £500 per minute line to claim your prize' brigade.  

Although I disagree with some of the views of the operators and contributors, I fully respect this site and the fact that they feel strong enough about something to want to run it.  However, I can't see that the methods, language and hostility used by certain contributors is going to help them achieve their aims.

How can you seriously justify continuing to shoot a company to bits who has had some quite abusive wording written about them, checked the position and advice given and then acted genuinely and quickly upon that advice?

Anyway, Timmy thank you for your kind words and good luck with whatever you're doing now.

NGM - thanks for the laughs, you are utterly hilarious and the best thing is I don't think you even mean to be!!  I can't wait for the next installment...

Regards,
Danny (GM not MD)

freeola.com wrote on Dec 5^th, 2006 at 12:38am:

At one point Freeola was plastered across this forum as scammers - that's putting us in the same club (according to the rest of this site) as fraudulent telemarketers and the 'you've won a prize to the caribbean - call our £500 per minute line to claim your prize' brigade.

0871 numbers are generally used for most of these scams now where the company rings with an automated call saying you have won a prize and to ring them back to find out how to collect it.

The reason - because 0871 is the highest revenue share rate available without being subject to ICSTIS controls as you knew full well when you decided to take such numbers.

So now you use the right wording for the cost of the calls after months of using the wrong wording and expect us to give you credit for that.  That would be like expecting a burglar to get credit for finally returning the goods he stole or expecting a television license dodger to finally get credit for buying a TV license.

If there is any lesson you should have learned from this whole episode it is that you are using the wrong telephone numbers and need to change them.  IDNet charge £25 a month too for their 30Gb Max service and they use 0800 numbers.  Almost no ISP other than Freeola uses an 0871 number for sales.

freeola.com wrote on Dec 5^th, 2006 at 12:38am:

[...]How can you seriously justify continuing to shoot a company to bits who has had some quite abusive wording written about them, checked the position and advice given and then acted genuinely and quickly upon that advice? [...] Regards, Danny (GM not MD)

And how does your organization continue to justify the use of telephone numbers that treat customers and potential customers with contempt?
If you really do want to extract 10p/min from potential customers calling your sales line, at least be up front about it and use a 10p/min 09 number rather than hiding behind an 0871 number that is poorly regulated and the costs of calling such a number are generally not recognized by many consumers until they receive their phone bill. What is actually that wrong with a geographic number? Why can't you factor in the cost of providing sales and support into your general business costs? Why are UK businesses so uniquely dependent on revenue-generating telephone numbers?

idb wrote on Dec 5^th, 2006 at 2:43pm:

And how does your organization continue to justify the use of telephone numbers that treat customers and potential customers with contempt?

Perhaps idb because we are dealing with a man here who is capable only of thinking as far as how many quid per month an existing call volume to the old geographic number would bring in if they were all converted to 0871 without being able to analyse the finer points such as lots of potential customers taking their business elsewhere or some existing customers slowly leaving the Freeola service for a variety of reasons but that include the existence of the ripiff 0871 number.

I see an 01279 geographic alternative to Freeola's expensive 0871 technical support number is now available in the Unverified geographic alternatives section of this website's database.

I didn't think that number was there when I checked a few days ago so may be it has been added by a member of Freeola's own staff who does not support the 0871 number phone call scam. ;)


Quote:

Freeola (Entanet)       0871 2109977             01279 322770

I hope as many Freeola customers as possible will now use this alternative 01279 number.  If of course Freeola now changes the geographic number the 0871 directs to then if I was one of Freeola's customers I would change my ISP to either www.ukfsn.org.uk or www.adsl24.co.uk who also provide the same Entanet broadband product at a cheaper monthly price.

idb wrote on Dec 5^th, 2006 at 2:43pm:

If you really do want to extract 10p/min from potential customers calling your sales line, at least be up front about it and use a 10p/min 09 number rather than hiding behind an 0871 number that is poorly regulated and the costs of calling such a number are generally not recognized by many consumers until they receive their phone bill

I couldn't agree more!  [smiley=evil.gif]

Me again, got my phone bill and it was almost £2.80 for my call to Freeola which after the long wait to get an advisor, lasted 30 seconds, so I emailed them asking as a goodwill gesture for them to refund me some or all the charges, to get a reply back saying"thats odd if the line is busy we usually call up our other staff"

I have decided to go for UKFSN or Vivaciti(who I was going for originally but couldnt afford activation fee)

Both have the best reps of the Enta resellers.

Still im only 5 weeks into contract, but you can be assured as soon as month 3 starts they will recieve a  MAC code request

ryouga wrote on Dec 10^th, 2006 at 11:38pm:

Me again, got my phone bill and it was almost £2.80 for my call to Freeola which after the long wait to get an advisor, lasted 30 seconds, so I emailed them asking as a goodwill gesture for them to refund me some or all the charges, to get a reply back saying"thats odd if the line is busy we usually call up our other staff" I have decided to go for UKFSN or Vivaciti(who I was going for originally but couldnt afford activation fee) Still im only 5 weeks into contract, but you can be assured as soon as month 3 starts they will recieve a  MAC code request

I would tend to favour UKFSN because Vivaciti prominently use an 0870 number on their website.  Not as bad as 0871 but not far off in the weekday daytime.  By contrast UKFSN use a London geographic 020 number which is answered straight away despite it being only small print at the foot of their web pages (they would prefer that you email them and are famous for their fast turn around email responses).

Or www.adsl24.co.uk, another Entanet reseller, use an 0800 number and Brian there has called me back and had a helpful conversation with me after a couple of difficulties with the voicemail messages I left him somehow getting deleted by their system.  My only concern would be ADSL24 has only been going a month or so whereas UKFSN has been around for 3 years.

Once you are on board with UKFSN or ADSL24 all the real support comes from www.entanet.co.uk who are open 24 hours 7 days a week unlike most of the smaller better quality broadband providers.  And although they list an 0870 number on their website SayNoTo0870 lists an 01 alternative which is answered on the whole on the first ring.

Of course there is currently an 01279 alternative listed for Freeola on this website although I don't know whether they would agree to talk to you if you called that number and given their generally unashamed attitude about using an 0871 number I wonder if they aren't even currently in the process of having that geographic alternative number closed down.

As to Freeola claiming you must have been the only one holding for 30 minutes this is standard tactics by all these 087 call centre customer abusers.  By contrast I have rarely ever been kept on hold for long when calling an 0800 number................... ;)

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 30^th, 2006 at 6:47pm:

Have just discovered that the wholesaler used by Freeola to provide their broadband service are also misleading customers over the cost of telephone calls by claiming that 0870 is National Rate www.entanet.co.uk/index.php?id=104 Quote: National rate phone line 0870 224 3494 While it is their choice as to whether they should be using an 0870 number or not they should only be describing it as "Calls cost up to 8p per minute from BT landlines" and not as National Rate. I wonder if I need to start another thread under the name of Entanet to draw their attention to this matter?

I e-mailed them about the misleading description of that number and received only an auto reply  saying they " respond to e-mails within 5 hours or by 10 a.m the following day if received out of hours", (I sent it on 1-12-06),  I have just looked at that page, it now says,  "National variable rate phone line 0870 224 3494".
I have e-mailed them again pointing out that the term "national rate" is prohibited.

At least there is a geographic alternative listed for Entanet on the SayNoTo0870 website and they do seem to answer it straight away.  It needs bold action by Ofcom of the kind they have finally taken over compulsory ADSL migration codes to stop the persisent 084/7 call cost misdescription.  I'm going to put in an FOI asking what plans Ofcom have to publicise their new 0345 and 0370 number codes when they launch them and how much they spent on national newspaper ads to publicise decontrol of BT call prices in the summer.

I'm trying broadband from NewNet at the moment on their Lite service to see how much use they clock up for me each month but if it ends up costing me nearer to £20 per month, rather than the £12.99 I was hoping for I may yet end up moving to www.ukfsn.org. Entanet do have the alternative to the 0870 and at least Entanet are open 7 days a week 24/7 for technical support issues, whereas the likes of Zen, IDNet and NewNet are not.

Vivaciti have told me they are listing a freephone support number as of this month!

Sounds good to me!

ryouga wrote on Jan 1^st, 2007 at 11:35pm:

Vivaciti have told me they are listing a freephone support number as of this month! Sounds good to me!

Its certainly good to hear that unlike Priceyola Vivaciti have decided to listen to what their customers are telling them about the cost of calling 087 numbers.  To be honest I would have perfectly happy with Vivaciti using an 01 or 02 number instead of an 0800 number as an 0800 number in part subjects Vivaciti to the NGN call scam in reverse although www.call08.co.uk do seem to have some very reasonable prices.

I do hope Vivaciti will also list their geographic phone number starting 01 or 02 too though as unfortunately all mobile phone companies exclude 0800 numbers from bundled minutes for calls starting 01/02 and TMobile still charge 0800 calls at a premium rate of 40p per minute compared to 12p per minute to any mobile network or to any 01/02 prefixed number on their main Pay As You Go tariff.