I note that BT have finally changed the description of 0845 and 0870 numbers from 'Local rate' and 'National rate' respectively to '0845 numbers' and '0870 numbers'.

Dave wrote on Jan 7^th, 2007 at 5:51pm:

I note that BT have finally changed the description of 0845 and 0870 numbers from 'Local rate' and 'National rate' respectively to '0845 numbers' and '0870 numbers'.

And their excuse for delaying this change for two and a half years (following the abolition of BT Standard Rate on 1st July 2004 and making BT Option 1 Line Rental compulsory) has been that it was difficult to adjust all their billing computers before now to cope as they didn't have the words "0845 numbers" and "0870 numbers" in their ancient billing platform database.

Strangely they did have the words "Special Rate Services" in the billing database and used it for about a quarter a year or so back before withdrawing it on the grounds that it frightened the horses by making people feel that what they previously thought were Local Rate calls were in fact premium rate calls (or so I was told by the No 2 to John Strutt, Head of BT Pricing a few months ago).

Apparently BT customer call centres were absolutely inundated with calls in the period when they showed Special Rate Services on the bills.

Now if only OfCoN had forced all these scammers to at least print "Premium Rate" against these numbers even if they hadn't changed to 09.

By the way what do they print against 0844 and 0871 numbers on the BT bills?  I'm currently with the Post Office for line rental who were still describing them as Lo-Call the last time I got a bill.

BT's part of the website where they market these numbers is here. It makes no mention of local or national rate and they have even dumped the trademarks 'Lo-call' and 'NationalCall'. They are now 'BT 0845' and 'BT 0870'.

Dave wrote on Jan 9^th, 2007 at 8:48pm:

BT's part of the website where they market these numbers is here. It makes no mention of local or national rate and they have even dumped the trademarks 'Lo-call' and 'NationalCall'. They are now 'BT 0845' and 'BT 0870'.

The inconsistency of this web page and BT phone bills with the rest of BT's stated position on 084/7 numbers was the subject of several emails between me and BT directors copied to senior Ofcom personnel a few months back.

It seems that finally the BT board has bludgeoned its ruthless and conscienceless NTS number selling division into not continuing to sell these numbers based on blatant and bare faced lieing.  The head of BT pricing John Strutt has confirmed to me that the terms Lo-Call and National Rate are no longer in official use by BT.

It was of course this BT web page that Sky used to try to defend itself against my formal complaint about using the term "National Rate of 8p per minute" in their Sky Travel Shop programs on Sky Three that was adjudicated on by the ASA back in August.  Sky were told they should not go on using the term National Rate but as they had used the correct price sadly they did not get a formal adjudication against them that they had breached ASA rules.  However Sky no that they cannot go on continuing to use the term National Rate and they no longer do so in Sky Travel Shop programs.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 9^th, 2007 at 11:50pm:

The head of BT pricing John Strutt has confirmed to me that the terms Lo-Call and National Rate are no longer in official use by BT.

I draw your attention to the one place I know of that still mentions 'local' and 'national' with respect to 0845 and 0870 numbers and that is the BT Price List.

See table 2 here for BT Together Option 1. It refers to 'Local NTS' and 'National NTS'. Similarly so does pricing information for Options 2 and 3.

So do quite a few other pages, see here.

Whilst it may be hidden away, it could be used by another company to justify these descriptions, as Sky did so.

Dave wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 12:01am:

I draw your attention to the one place I know of that still mentions 'local' and 'national' with respect to 0845 and 0870 numbers and that is the BT Price List. See table 2 here for BT Together Option 1. It refers to 'Local NTS' and 'National NTS'. Similarly so does pricing information for Options 2 and 3. So do quite a few other pages, see here. Whilst it may be hidden away, it could be used by another company to justify these descriptions, as Sky did so.

I will email John Strutt and ask that this be changed to 0845 NTS and 0870 NTS. I will also cc Ian Livingston and Ben Verwaayen.

In essence i think businesses who believe the customer is king and who also operate in a competitive marketplace use 01/02 or 0800 but businesses who believe that their customers are mainly dumb sheeplike creatures and/or also operate in highly uncompetitive markets think they can get away with the 084/7 call ripoff.

It is deplorable that the Inland Revenue of all people use 0845 numbers as another form of stealth tax.

It is little short of a public scandal that 0800 numbers are not supported from the mobile phone network.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 12:14am:

It is little short of a public scandal that 0800 numbers are not supported from the mobile phone network.

They are, but not free, although some will ask you to redial without the leading 0

Whose fault is that? It seems the various companies involved never solved the dilemma of who pays for the call.

Maybe it would have been too idealistic to hope charges would have been related to the forward termination cost rather than have extra loading because mobiles have higher tariffs.  

But perhaps what did for its final withdrawal (by Orange just over a year ago, extended to a few weeks ago for those that  complained) was a proliferation of callthrough providers who almost certainly didn't pay anything at all and were agile in setting up new access numbers every time the old one was blocked.

andy9 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 5:28am:

Maybe it would have been too idealistic to hope charges would have been related to the forward termination cost rather than have extra loading because mobiles have higher tariffs.

But do mobile networks not get paid the same as landline providers to connecting to 080x numbers? And does it cost them to connect to 01/02 numbers? In which case if they were not allowed to charge more than calling 01/02 numbers (and include them in inclusive minutes), then they would still be making some, rather than at present, they are frequently more expensive than geographicals.


andy9 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 5:28am:

But perhaps what did for its final withdrawal (by Orange just over a year ago, extended to a few weeks ago for those that  complained) was a proliferation of callthrough providers who almost certainly didn't pay anything at all and were agile in setting up new access numbers every time the old one was blocked.

So what you're saying is that 0800 numbers can operate that don't pay the originating provider anything??  :-?

Dave wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 12:30pm:

So what you're saying is that 0800 numbers can operate that don't pay the originating provider anything??  :-?

I believe OCP's do get some money when their customers call 080 numbers however I believe this is probably the same (I'm guessing) as the money they make from calls made from their network to geographicals.

There is no excuse for mobiles to charge so much more as most of the cost if bourne by the company you call when ringing the 0800.  I've always said they have significantly more outgoing expenses compared to that of landline providers (I assume) due to the cost of maintaining a wireless network and the cost incurred even when calling from one mobile network to a customer on the same mobile network.

I believe a fee of 5p thereabout would probably more accurately reflect the actual costs the mobile networks make.


Dave wrote on Jan 7^th, 2007 at 5:51pm:

I note that BT have finally changed the description of 0845 and 0870 numbers from 'Local rate' and 'National rate' respectively to '0845 numbers' and '0870 numbers'.

I noticed this as well however 0871 comes under the general category of 'other'.  Therefore I assume 0844 calls do as well but cant confirm this.

Dave wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 12:30pm:

andy9 wrote on Jan 10th, 2007 at 5:28am: But perhaps what did for its final withdrawal (by Orange just over a year ago, extended to a few weeks ago for those that  complained) was a proliferation of callthrough providers who almost certainly didn't pay anything at all and were agile in setting up new access numbers every time the old one was blocked. So what you're saying is that 0800 numbers can operate that don't pay the originating provider anything??  :-?

Well it's stopped now, but ...

When it was possible to use 1899 or 18185 for 0.5 pence a minute, what proportion of that would have gone to Orange? Remember the call price was exactly the same as via the London number.

It's still the case abroad. Many calling cards either surcharge from mobiles or callbox access to freephone numbers. There are others that do not and are mostly barred.

Whatever we think of it, nobody can force a provider to carry calls they aren't being paid for.

andy9 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 7:10pm:

Dave wrote on Jan 10th, 2007 at 12:30pm: So what you're saying is that 0800 numbers can operate that don't pay the originating provider anything??  :-? Well it's stopped now, but ... When it was possible to use 1899 or 18185 for 0.5 pence a minute, what proportion of that would have gone to Orange? Remember the call price was exactly the same as via the London number.

But surely (back in the day when you could call 1899/18185 080x numbers free from Orange and when you could call them at all) there are the following separate relationships:

1 The caller pays call provider (1899/18185) for the call.
2 Call provider pays the telco providing the 080x number.
3 The telco providing the 080x number pay Orange.

The above is an assumption I'm making, but what you're suggesting is that the amount that Orange received is directly related to the amount the call provider charges.

My last 2 BT bills have described the 0845 numbers as 'Calls charged at the BT local call rate'.

I thought this description has been stopped by BT and surely they shouldn't be allowed to describe these as such

Keith wrote on Apr 17^th, 2008 at 12:43pm:

My last 2 BT bills have described the 0845 numbers as 'Calls charged at the BT local call rate'. I thought this description has been stopped by BT and surely they shouldn't be allowed to describe these as such

My last BT bill before I left them over a year ago showed "0845 rate" and "0870 rate".  This was after long correspondence with their head of pricing (John Strutt) and the CEO (Ben Verwaayen).  They cited programming difficulties (I very much doubt this was true) in their billing system as the reason why they had not changed earlier for 0845 and 0870 price description for  BT Option 1 to 3  customers (such as on 1st July 2005 when the prices became different)

Are you saying that BT is now showing "Calls charged at BT local rate". Surely not.  Other companies like PostOffice Homephone and YourCalls are shamelessly still doing this and just cite the excuse that it is what their main competitors do (official high level letter from PostOffice states this in black and white) and also that phone bills are not subject to control by the ASA.

Ofcom have just launched a new investigation in to non compliance by phone companies with the need to give equal prominence on websites to 084 and 087 prices as to 01/02 numbers.  I have written to the head of this investigation (a Mr Michael Love) to suggest that as phone bills are not covered by the ASA (not adverts) but are items statutorily required by Ofcom General Conditions to be produced for fixed line customers (either on paper or online) that Ofcom needs to widen its investigation to the matter of 0845 and 0870 calls in particular being misdescribed as Lo-Call/Local Call and National Rate. Mr Love was on leave last week and has now said he needs another week to think about it before he gets back to me. I suspect I have asked a big question here as Ofcom can control the content of phone bills (especially under their backstop powers under the Communications Act 2003).  Asking phone companies to accurately describe calls in non advertising material does not amount to excessive and disproprotionate regulation by Ofcom.  It is obvious Ofcom knows this is happening and yet has been ignoring it (presumably as usual either to side with their mates in the telcos or simply because they are useless at pursuing any consumer raised issue). I suggest you write to Mr Love with your experiences indicating you also believe he needs to add price misdescription of 0845 and 0870 calls on phone bills accessed via websites to Ofcom's "investigation.

His email is michael.love@ofcom.org.uk - he is the Case Leader.

See www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/comp_bull_ocases/open_all/cw_980/

Although the investigation is only about NTS (084 and 087) price indications being given equal prominence on webites but BT,  yourcalls and various other companies either only offer website based phone bill provision (yourcalls) or now charge extra if you insist on a paper bill (BT).  So to my mind a statement that 0845 is Lo-Call or Local Rate on a website based phone bill with the company is a breach of the requirement to accurately describe NTS call prices (although not of the requirement to give them equal prominence). Even if the matter cannot be tackled by this Ofcom investigation it could be tackled by an Ofcom investigation if they chose to do so.  Indeed it is more important because it is about the price indication being misleading rather than not having the same prominence or not being provided at all.

See www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/comp_bull_ocases/open_all/cw_980/ for details of the investigation.  If BT has really now gone back to calling the calls Local Rate on phone billsthen this must be challenged immediately.  It also goes against the statements previously made by BT's new CEO designate (Ian Livingston) published by The Scotsman newspaper condemning the abuses of consumers perpetrated using these phone numbers.

See http://business.scotsman.com/business/BT-calls-on-Ofcom-to.2642029.jp

Yep - it have copied down the exact wording.


The heading above my list of 0845 numbers is:

"0845 numbers

Calls are charged at the BT local call rate."


The 0870 is ok. This says:

"0870 numbers

Calls to 087x special services numbers that are charged at up to 10p per minute"


0844 numbers come under the following description:

"Other

Includes calls which do not fit into previous call catagories"

My bill of 30 March 2008 says refers to them as "0845 Numbers".

Keith wrote on Apr 17^th, 2008 at 2:25pm:

The heading above my list of 0845 numbers is: "0845 numbers Calls are charged at the BT local call rate."

Ah right, so you have itemised calls? I don't so perhaps that is where the issue lies.

Ah hadn't thought of that. I do have itemised bills because I now get them online. Prior to that I didn't and got the summary bill and the issue wasn't there, so this might not be new.

Still very very wrong as NGMG points out.

Keith wrote on Apr 17^th, 2008 at 2:25pm:

Yep - it have copied down the exact wording. The heading above my list of 0845 numbers is: "0845 numbers Calls are charged at the BT local call rate." The 0870 is ok. This says: "0870 numbers Calls to 087x special services numbers that are charged at up to 10p per minute" 0844 numbers come under the following description: "Other Includes calls which do not fit into previous call catagories"

I suggest you email michael.love@ofcom.org.uk copying clive.hillier@ofcom.org.uk, claudio.pollack@ofcom.org.uk and stuart.mcintosh@ofcom.org.uk plus ian.livingston@bt.com informing them of BT's disgraceful misleading of the public over 0845 call costs on online phone bills and saying you hear this problem is also happening with Post Office Homephone, yourcalls.et etc and exhorting Ofcom to widen the scope of this investigation to the improper display of NTS prices on phone bills or to start a new one on this subject alone.  Do you have online billing with BT?  Surely you must as a saynoto0870er as paper bills now cost an extra £1.50 per quarter with BT.

Will do NGMG and yes as you can see from my last post I do have online billing.

I have had the following reply from OFCOM:
 

Thank you for your recent email regarding BT?s use of the term Local Rate on their
bills. Please accept my apologies for not responding sooner. 

Please be assured that Ofcom is aware of this issue and that it has caused us
concern. I can confirm that we have been in contact with BT?s Regulatory Affairs
department to express our concerns. BT has responded stating that these are
mistakes which they agree should not be occurring. They have confirmed that they
are dealing with the matter.

 Yours sincerely
John Ingham
   Telecoms Associate
               Central Operations
               occtelecoms@ofcom.org.uk

Keith wrote on May 10^th, 2008 at 4:20pm:

Please be assured that Ofcom is aware of this issue and that it has caused us concern. I can confirm that we have been in contact with BT?s Regulatory Affairs  department to express our concerns. [b]BT has responded stating that these are mistakes which they agree should not be occurring[/b]. They have confirmed that they are dealing with the matter. Yours sincerely John Ingham Telecoms Associate Central Operations occtelecoms@ofcom.org.uk

What part exactly of "useless" "patsies" "telecoms industry" and "in the pockets of" do these cretins at Ofcom not get.

I suppose it is also just a mistake is it that Post Office Homephone Yourcalls/Communications Warehouse and most of the other main WLR line rental and call package suppliers are also still calling 0845 and 0870 "Local" and "National Rate" and also still charge 03 numbers at g6 multimedia rate in violation of one of Ofcom's new General Conditions. Why does not Ofcom understand that £20 million fines elicit immediate action but friendly letters and chats behind closed doors at the NTS Focus Group = No Action and repeated lieing and scamming by the telecoms industry.

No doubt the grossly overpaid and wholly uninspiring Ed Richards and David Currie are even now secretly laughing behind their backs at the general public and Ofcom successfully being able to repeatedly hoodwink the press that they are on the side of the public with their deliberately grossly misleading and untruthful press releases hiding the fact that they are going back on their word about making 0870 numbers geographic rate across the board or that they would be subjecting 0871 numbers to full premium rate controls.

When Ofcom's most senior executives can openly joke amongst each other in a public place about Members of Parliament on the two Select Committees who were supposed to hold them to account being "toothless tigers" its pretty obvious just what these two faced charlatans actually think about allowing their chums in the telecoms industry to go on deliberately ripping off the public while continuing to profess to the world at large their serious concern about the matter.

This useles and meaningless letter from a useless Ofcom adviser is typical of the garbage they turn out in response to any serious policy level complaint against the telecoms industry.  Also note that serious policy level complaints to Ofcom by the public never seem to reach their senior executives' desks.

When is Ofcom going to stop meeting with the NTS section of the telecoms industry in smoke filled rooms with no public interest representation while it then strikes secret deals with them (eg ditching previous commitments on 0870 on the flimsiest and most hollow of pretexts about burglar alarm issues) and instead fulfil its principle remit of ensuring properly competitive telecoms markets and properly transparent pricing for UK citizen consumers. :o >:( [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

Keith wrote on May 10^th, 2008 at 4:20pm:

I have had the following reply from OFCOM: Thank you for your recent email regarding BT?s use of the term Local Rate on their bills. Please accept my apologies for not responding sooner. Please be assured that Ofcom is aware of this issue and that it has caused us concern. I can confirm that we have been in contact with BT?s Regulatory Affairs department to express our concerns. BT has responded stating that these are mistakes which they agree should not be occurring. They have confirmed that they are dealing with the matter. Yours sincerely John Ingham   Telecoms Associate               Central Operations               occtelecoms@ofcom.org.uk

Looking at my online BT bill today they still divide the calls into three.
1) Local calls
2) National calls
3) Other calls

:(