Hi

I was just interested to know whether other countries in the EU have the same problems; with adult services migrating from 090xx to 0871 are similar things happening in Germnay, France, Spian etc.

cheers in advance  :)

Luc

Maybe the R.S.P.C.A. should get involved, as the prices for 0871 are considerably lower than 09...
So, with lower costs, more monkeys will be spanked and more chickens choked.
Time to buy shares in Andrex!

Surely the principal reason for this migration is that many are realising that although the 0871 rates may be lower than the maximum 09 rates, in the long run more total revenue can be made by using 0871 or 070PNS numbers! This is because call queuing and all other call-duration extrapolation techniques are allowed with 0871 and 070PNS, whereas they are specifically prohibited with 09 overt Premium numbers.

It is for exactly this reason also that many 0870 scamsters are moving over to use 0871 numbers. This is precisely why Ofcom would not force current 0871 users to 09 and why they have deliberately kept shy of full ICSTIS control for 0871. They want 0871 to be the main escape route from 0870 for their telecoms buddies, so they are deliberately attempting to define it as an anomaly - half under the control of ICSTIS, but avoiding the stricter controls (like the prohibition of call queuing and all other call-duration extrapolation techniques etc. for Premium numbers), and so as to parry a need to specifically label 0871 as a "Premium" number category!

It continuously amazes me that so many people who are incensed about NGNs other than 09 being used as Premium numbers, in all but name, still do not seem to understand that the foundation of these scams is that call queuing and call duration extrapolation are not prohibited on any NGN other than 09. This is how the really big money is made from NGN abuse.

Indeed, but as of early 2008 there won't be any adult services on 0871 and the service will be regulated by ICSTIS with the same regulation as 09xx ?

Luc

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 24^th, 2007 at 4:25pm:

I was just interested to know whether other countries in the EU have the same problems; with adult services migrating from 090xx to 0871 are similar things happening in Germnay, France, Spian etc.

A similar website exists for Germany, see discussion here.

Thanks thats' very interesting so from what I  gather am I right in saying that as fixed line calling revenues plummet national and local rates are indeed meaningless concepts and these numbers (08xx in the UK) are used more and more like PRS where there are revnue sharing models in place? Is this only in the UK and Germnay or do people have instances of other EU countries experiencing this abuse?

Luc

dorf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2007 at 12:10pm:

Surely the principal reason for this migration is that many are realising that although the 0871 rates may be lower than the maximum 09 rates, in the long run more total revenue can be made by using 0871 or 070PNS numbers! This is because call queuing and all other call-duration extrapolation techniques are allowed with 0871 and 070PNS, whereas they are specifically prohibited with 09 overt Premium numbers. It is for exactly this reason also that many 0870 scamsters are moving over to use 0871 numbers.

I agree with all those points dorf, although the one other additional issue you miss is that the reason the scammers so love 0871 numbers is precisely because the average uninformed member of the public would simply imagine them to be an overflow range of 0870 numbers and so charged on the same basis.  And the average uninformed member of the public would also wrongly imagine an 0870 number cost to only be the same as National Rate and so no more than calling an 01/02 number.  Sadly this misunderstanding is further extended to then thinking 0871 is National Rate as well even though neither are charged at this rate.

Then the utterly useless and corrupt Ofcom aids and abets this process by doing nothing to publicise the fact that 0870 and 0871  numbers are not National Rate but are revenue share/premium rate calls charged at different rates.  The useless Ofcom also expects the ASA to sort this mess out for them but ignores the fact that the ASA does not control website advertising nor any materials which are not advertising but merely police or local government information leaflets etc.

Ofcom are at the route of this evil by having allowed 0871 to now be used for premium rate activities so that the number confusion with 0870 misdescribed National Rate would occur and then allowing ICSTSIS to water down the controls used over 0871 so they do not begin to resemble normal premium rate number control.

Ofcom are an utterly despicable organisation run by individuals with no principles for whom it is hard to have any respect.

There was also mention that 09xx numbers do not allow charging for call queuing but how is this regulated and what happens if an operator answers the phone then puts you on hold you can't just 'turn off' the meter ! telecoms billing systems don't work that way?

explanantions appreciated

a very nice man wrote on Jan 24^th, 2007 at 4:57pm:

Maybe the R.S.P.C.A. should get involved, as the prices for 0871 are considerably lower than 09... So, with lower costs, more monkeys will be spanked and more chickens choked. Time to buy shares in Andrex!

Some "09" numbers are in fact the same price as 0871 - 10p/min,  "09" are regulated, but 0871 are not.

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 26^th, 2007 at 8:42am:

There was also mention that 09xx numbers do not allow charging for call queuing but how is this regulated and what happens if an operator answers the phone then puts you on hold you can't just 'turn off' the meter ! telecoms billing systems don't work that way? explanantions appreciated

If you queue for longer than 15 seconds on a duration charging based 09 number and there are a number of complaints to ICSTIS then ICSTIS close down the service and fine the operator.   If you can't answer in 15 seconds then don't get an 09 - simple.  British Gas have just learned this the hard way but have only been fined a joke £5,000 rather than the £100,000 minimum they should have been fined.

See http://money.guardian.co.uk/utilities/story/0,,1985813,00.html

By contrast 0870 and 0871 numbers allow you to scam your customers for revenue share on half hour or longer call queues and worse still waste untold billions of unproductive man hours annually while people have a telephone headset clamped to their ears!  Sadly it seems that Ofcom have scammed us all on 0871 by pretending it was going to be premium rate regulated in its consultation documents in the same way as 09 numbers but it appears they and their ICSTIS sidekicks are now not planning to ban call queues of the 0870 kind in any way   So the result that 0870 calls become more expensive by changing from charging from 7p per minute peak to 1.5p per minute at the weekend to 10p per minute at all times, with unlimited call queuing allowed.  Or if an 0870 scammer doesn't want any control at all they can get a 5p per minute 0844 number where they don't have to say anything at all about the cost of the calls not being standard geographic rate. :o >:( :'(