Hi

I am trying to get a handle on the difference between the 0870 and 0871 markets. It seems that 0870 is a bigger market but the potential revenues from 0871 are greater, is there any reason for this.

My hypothesis is that the threshold for revenue sharing is quite high often well over 500 minutes a month before the owner of the number sees any returns. Therefore for smaller comapnies 087x is not a revenue genertaing service they just need the enabled software which is run over these numbers like IVR so it makes sense to use 0870 as it charges less to the customer and they will likely get more calls where the consumer knwoledge of the charges exist that is.

Luc

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 3:57pm:

My hypothesis is that the threshold for revenue sharing is quite high often well over 500 minutes a month before the owner of the number sees any returns. Therefore for smaller comapnies 087x is not a revenue genertaing service they just need the enabled software which is run over these numbers like IVR so it makes sense to use 0870 as it charges less to the customer and they will likely get more calls where the consumer knwoledge of the charges exist that is. Luc

If that is all they needed they would surely use a 1p per minute at all times 0844 number or at least an only an 0845 number.

10p per minute at all time 0871 and soon to be premium rate ICSTIS regulated are all about revenue share generation as are marginally cheaper 0870 numbers.  Of course 0870 will be forced to only charge the same as 01 or 02 in a year's time which is why all the aggressive revenue scammers will move on to either 5p per minute at all times totally unregulated 0844 or ICSTIS regulated (but as we know it Jim for 09 regulated ICSTIS numbers) 0871 numbers to keep the revenue share.

so why use 0870 at all and not 0871?

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 4:13pm:

so why use 0870 at all and not 0871?

Because the call cost is higher (especially off peak) than 0870 so the revenue share to the call recipient and/or their telco is consequently much higher. ::)

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 3:57pm:

I am trying to get a handle on the difference between the 0870 and 0871 markets. It seems that 0870 is a bigger market but the potential revenues from 0871 are greater, is there any reason for this.

The prefixes 0844 and 0871 were introduced in 1999. 0870 existed before this time, and was originally 0990 when all these numbers were provided by BT. 0990 numbers were migrated to 08705. That may help explain why businesses consider 0870 "fashionable".

Ofcom consultations and associated discussion threads on this forum can be found here. The provide an invaluable background to the internal framework of these numbers. They are, however, extremely long.

From Ofcom consultation NTS: Options for the future:

Quote:

Transit charges 3.53 As noted above, the practice of who pays for transit charges varies according to the number range being called. For 0844 and 0871 calls, the OCP will pay the transit charges; for all other NTS calls, the TCP will pay. Some in the Industry regard this inconsistency as an undesirable anomaly. 3.54 The explanation for the anomaly lies in the fact that, when the 0844 and 0871 number ranges were introduced in 1999, the intention was to solve the problem of revenue uncertainty for TCPs by allowing them to set their termination payments. OCPs were considered responsible for paying the transit payment to avoid the TCP being left with a remaining source of revenue uncertainty in relation to transit payments. 3.55 Some OCPs have refused to carry some 0844/0871 calls (callers get a ‘number unobtainable’ tone or message) because, amongst other reasons, they are reluctant to pay the transit charge. This is one of the factors which has reduced the viability of the 0844/0871 number ranges in the eyes of some CPs and NTS SPs.

Dave wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 9:53pm:

[ 0870 existed before this time, and was originally 0990 when all these numbers were provided by BT. 0990 numbers were migrated to 08705.

and 0541 many of which became 08701, just as 0345 and 0645 became 0845.

I think it was Energis that introduced some of the earliest 0870 numbers, even promoting revenue sharing ideas from the start, possible because of BT's overpriced 8p rate compared to competitors' 3p. That's why businesses went for them so strongly

OK thanks. So do you think the types of businesses who use 0871 differ markedly from those using 0870 and if so why and how about with 0844 and 0845 ?

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 30^th, 2007 at 9:27am:

OK thanks. So do you think the types of businesses who use 0871 differ markedly from those using 0870 and if so why and how about with 0844 and 0845 ?

Look.  Are you writing this stuff for a university paper or what exactly?  It seems as though you never use the telephone or if you do don't pay your own bill or have never bothered to check the rates with your phone company?

Anyone who uses the telephone on a regular basis can see that at present must customer service departments etc are on 0845 and 0870 because of the con until recently supported by BT billing of calling them lo-call/local rate or national rate (for 0845 and 0870 respectively).

Hardly anyone of note currently uses 0871 apart from Easyjet and Ryanair who don't want to hear from their customers because it is 10p per minute at all times.  Most corporates seems to use 0870 for customer service lines. Most government departments and charities use 0845.  0844 is mainly used for dial up internet in place of 0845 but also by a scammer like NEG for doctors surgeries after they were banned from using 0870.  0844 and 0871 are also used by cheap calls dial thru services like www.dialaround.co.uk

I don't wish to sound unhelpful but read the FAQs and previous posts and use the Search engine on the forum at its all there.  I can't see why you are asking these questions when you seem to have so little interest in the phone system to begin with that you have never worked out who uses what kind of numbers.  If you made phone calls regulalry it  would be obvious to you.

I just never have the need to call 08xx numbers

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 30^th, 2007 at 3:22pm:

I just never have the need to call 08xx numbers

Clearly someone who doesn't pay their own utility bills or use telephone banking or use NHS Direct or have to phone their Doctor's surgery or have to enquire about the time of a train or ..........

You must be Royalty!

Try some of 0800 numbers from time to time, Sir.  They're fun.

Don't do it using your own mobile though.  That's expensive.

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 30^th, 2007 at 3:22pm:

I just never have the need to call 08xx numbers

I think you must be the managing director of a company with a large 0870 call centre puzzling at why your company receives so many abusive letters regarding these numbers.

It seems you have a wife and a secretary to make all of life's mundane practical arrangements as this can be the only possible reason why you never have to call such numbers yourself.  Either that or you do not live in the UK at all.

Or pehaps you are a director of Ofcom and make all these personal calls on an Ofcom mobile and so never have to pay the bill?. ;)

If you want to know Im  a telecoms consultant. Google my name 'Luc Altmann' and ignore the first two which isn't me. Im doing some background research basically.

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 31^st, 2007 at 9:18am:

If you want to know Im  a telecoms consultant. Google my name 'Luc Altmann' and ignore the first two which isn't me. Im doing some background research basically.

I find it singularly ironic that someone who hires themself out as a so called telecoms consultant apparently knows so little about the UK's current highly distorted telecoms tariff structure or even what the price difference is between an 0870 and 0871 number or how the two are differently used.  Why do people become consultants in something which they clearly have zero personal interest in or experience of - just to earn money by any means of course like the 084/7 call centre scammers?  Surely its much better to become a consultant in something which you have a personal passion about.

You are clearly a lazy consultant since instead of properly using Google to research and read around the subject you expect people here to give you a few snappy answers for your report to a very long running saga of misselling, lies and deceit.

Calls to 01/02 numbers and all EU equivalent fixed line numbers from a BT landline can be had for as £4.33 a month in unlimited quantity on an 18 month contract with www.euphony.co.uk.  084/7 calls are excluded from these packages and can easily cost someone based at home another £50 to £60 per month if called with impunity (0871 numbers cost £6 per hour to call at all times so not exactly difficult to run up this kind of cost is it).  Also most mobile operators exclude 084/7 numbers from their bundled minutes on contracts and some like TMobile and Vodafone charge highly penal rates for calling them on Pay As You Go tariffs (in TMobile's case within the UK and in Vodafone's when calling from overseas).  Yet these are normal company numbers and not numbers providing a special service of any kind.

If you don't actually have a clue on this subject and are prepared to make it obvious that you don't as you have done then I suggest you check out some of my responses to previous Ofcom and ICSTIS consultations on this issue:-

For instance:-

www.icstis.org.uk/pdfs_consult/0871JShersby.pdf

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/sz/shersby.pdf

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsoptions/Responses/jshersby.pdf

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ocp/responses/shersby.pdf

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsctmr/resntcctr/shersby.pdf

Or take off the shersby bit at the end of those URLs to see a list of all responses to these consultations.

I also don't believe you never call these numbers.  But I do believe you are someone who has a phone bill that someone else pays for you so you have never noticed that these numbers had a different cost to call from numbers that start 01 or 02.

LMAO.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Im getting opnion from various sources thanks and the ones at saynoto0870 have been very interesting and informed. I am aware of the tariff structure and the consultations.

So this would be your firm and one of your articles:-

http://www.analysys.com/default_acl.asp?mode=article&ileftarticle=1770

So a company paid mobile phone and all calls to 084/7 numbers on that phone or from your office desk landline phone then it would seem? In other words you never pay the bill ;) ::)

Ironic isn't it that people come consultants in a subject on which they show total ignorance.

Yeah that's but I still genuinely never use 08xx numbers usually use internet for that stuff.

Anyway thanks again for your help

Luc

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 31^st, 2007 at 9:58am:

LMAO.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Im getting opnion from various sources thanks and the ones at saynoto0870 have been very interesting and informed. I am aware of the tariff structure and the consultations.

Perhaps you shouldn't take our righteous anger on this topic too personally.

Our anger is mainly with Ofcom who many of us took long hours responding to the several consultations of on this subject only to be resoundingly ignored.

The point about 084/7 calls is not just that the calls cost extra but that it is an industry built on blatant and straightforward consumer deception and deceit about the costs of the calls and claiming that lower rate premium rate revenue share calls are "local" or "lo-call" rate and "national rate" when they are no such thing.  Our anger is about the failure of the regulator to put these services on the 09 prefix code which the public clearly identify as premium rate.  That is what happens in the USA for all such calls.

Ofcom has unfortunately been given the normal powers of the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission for telecoms and broadcasting issues but it blatantly isn't enforcing them in respect of ensuring the public understand that these calls are not standard rate calls and are not misdescribed.  Also under Part 3 (i) of the Communications Act 2003 Ofcom's principal duty is supposed to be the protection of the citizen consumer  (See www.ofcom.org.uk/about/sdrp/).  But under Stephen Carter Ofcom completely failed to act against his old mates at NTL (where he used to work) and other telcos ripping off consumers over 084/7 calls despite endless consumer pressure to do so.  084/7 calls are worth over £1 billion a year and are over 25% of UK call values, which is why the senior telco executives who have infiltrated Ofcom to stop their industry being closed down have refused to let it die.  Ofcom acts against things which don't cost companies serious money but look exciting presentationally (eg junk food adverts to kids) but it refuses to tackle the big scams worth billions to the telecoms industry.  It even has a regular Focus Group with the telecoms industry to  discuss how to minimise the impact of any changes to 084/7 call charge structures from which consumer interests are excluded:-

See www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/groups/nts_focus/notes/

See also these references as to why 084/7 are not Local/National Rate including the very interesting comments of Ian Livingston, CEO of BT Retail:-

The view of a county council trading standards department

Para 1.3 Page 1 of http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and
the view of the CEO of BT Retail, Ian Livingston

http://business.scotsman.com/banking.cfm?id=764772005

and

two recent guidances from the Advertising Standards Authority

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+on.htm

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and

the Parliamentary Early Day motion deploring the use of 0870 telephone numbers by government departments

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&; amp;SESSION=875

and

Another guidance from the Committee of Advertising Practice of the Advertising Standards Authority

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+providers.htm

and Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own district council where we agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

And the most recent ASA guidance saying that Inclusive call packages must not fail to disclose that 084/7 calls are excluded from them.

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2006/Ringing+the+Changes.htm

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 31^st, 2007 at 10:02am:

Yeah that's but I still genuinely never use 08xx numbers usually use internet for that stuff.

Do you not find that many companies fail to respond to emails or online enquiry forms and the only way to get them to take any action is to telephone them?  Its either that or an email to the CEO and the main board directors if the customer call centre fails to  take the appropriate action I usually find.  But perhaps you have a wife or girlfriend to resolve all these domestic problems for you.

But many companies now have 084/7 numbers for normal business to business contact too.  They aren't just used for call centres.

I think you must be numerically dyslexic (whereas I am highly numerically literate and have a very good memory) and never notice what numbers you are dialling and never check your phone bill because you are so well paid it doesn't matter what the cost of the calls is to you.  I can't imagine a more inappropriate person therefore to be writing this report.

By the way I have no idea what LMAO means.  The fact that you are a text speaker and I am not probably says what different kinds of people we are.

NGMsGhost, LMAO =  Laughs My A***e Off  ;)

Indeed NGN revenues do account for 29% of UK call revenues though the 084/7 share is less than 25% its GBP900 million out of a GBP5.6 billion  industry, i.e. 16%.

I do agree 0870/1 are overpriced, there does need to be some premium however to pay for the value added services for these numbers.

Interesting you mention the US do you see that as an exmaple of best practice and where else in Europe would you highlight as good practice on this issue.

lucaltmann wrote on Jan 31^st, 2007 at 10:33am:

I do agree 0870/1 are overpriced, there does need to be some premium however to pay for the value added services for these numbers.

But there aren't any voice value added services on 084/7 numbers that is the whole point.  They are just normal call centres and company switchboards formerly on 01/02  numbers.  The value added services are things like quiz tv prize lines, legal advice lines and sex chat lines (which no one has to call and there is lots of competition on) are all on 09 numbers.

Dial up is the only value added part of 0844/0845 but they could all be easily shunted on to another range without any issue.  Ofcom uses fast collapsing dialup as an excuse to hang on to 0844/5 revenue share for several years more to shore up this whole sad and deceitful industry.  Tell people it is an 09 call with a call price announcement that it is a higher rate with a payment to the company you are calling and no one running these lines will be able to get away with it any more.


Quote:

Interesting you mention the US do you see that as an exmaple of best practice and where else in Europe would you highlight as good practice on this issue.

Yes I do.

The odd American company operating in the UK, like MBNA the credit card operator, still sticks to the universal practice of offering 0800/800 numbers for all their UK points  of contact and organisations like John Lewis and Nationwide actively shun the use of 084/7 as much as possible because of their more consumer rights minded customer base.  The camera company Olympus even offers an 00 800 customer support line that can be called free from anywhere in the western world.

If 084/7 had not been missold on the deception of being normally priced calls due to a weak and corrupt regulator this scam industry would never have taken off.

09 calls clearly revealed as premium rate are a quite different consumer issue as they do not involve deception and misselling.

The other key issue is call queuing on 084/7 with people often having to queue for 30 minutest at £2.10 or £3.00 call value with no rules banning queuing (as there are on 09) and no indication of how long the call will be.  This incentivises call centres to understaff them and run them inefficiently to cut costs as much as possible while maximising call revenue.

This should come after #22

I have sent a complaint to the FSA againt them (FSA) for doing nothing.

I agree with all you say NGM, the whole 087x/084x scam is based on deception.

I have just received a 24 page booklet from Barclays Bank entitled “Overdraft Payment Protection”.  On the back cover, and printed in large blue type is the statement:
“Calls to 0870 numbers are charged at your national rate and calls to 0845 are charged at your local rate.”
The booklet appears to have been printed 11/06.

This is once again a clear false statement and is intended to mislead customers that calling 0870 and 0845 will cost customers no more than usual numbers beginning with 01/02.

Daytime calls to 0870 are usually charges between 7p to 10p/min and calls to 0845 cost between 3p to 5p/min.  Daytime calls to 01/02 numbers cost from 0p to 3p/min regardless of UK location or distance.  Calls to 084x/087x from mobiles and pay-phones are astronomical compared with 01/02.  A slice of the extra call cost goes to the Bank. The deception is clear.

If I stole money from the bank by deception I would end up in court.  The Banks steal millions from customers in clandestine telephone revenue, but the regulators do nothing.

kk wrote on Jan 31^st, 2007 at 4:15pm:

I have just received a 24 page booklet from Barclays Bank entitled “Overdraft Payment Protection”.  On the back cover, and printed in large blue type is the statement: “Calls to 0870 numbers are charged at your national rate and calls to 0845 are charged at your local rate.” The booklet appears to have been printed 11/06. This is once again a clear false statement and is intended to mislead customers that calling 0870 and 0845 will cost customers no more than usual numbers beginning with 01/02. If I stole money from the bank by deception I would end up in court.  The Banks steal millions from customers in clandestine telephone revenue, but the regulators do nothing.

kk

I am about to take NatWest to the Financial Services Ombudsman for their insistence that 0870 is National Rate in a deadlock letter from some cretinous woman in customer relations.

Can I suggest a three pronged attack against Barclays:-

(a) Scan the booklet and upload it along with your complaint at the ASA website.   As this is a marketing booklet for a product it is ASA regulated and Barclays shoud get an adjudication against them.

(b) If you can also pursue Barclays to send you a deadlock letter saying 0845 and 0870 are local rate and national rate and take your complaint to the Financial Services Ombusdman.  Unlike the ASA the FSO can impose financial penalties on companies for misselling.....  Of course Barclays will probably back off at higher level and say they realise there has been a mistake.

(c) Write to your MP and MEP citing this as an example of regulatory failure by Ofcom to exercise its powers under the Communcations Act 2003 to protect the citizien consumer and also its failure to enforce the EU Misleading Advertising Directive. Ideally you want to persuade your MP to have Ofcom's lethargy in this regard investigated by the Parliamentary Ombudsman.