In early 2008 as you all know 0871 will come under the regulation of ICSTIS whilst 0870 will become non revenue sharing. What do you think will happen to current users of both 0870 and 0871 services. Will 0870 owners migrate to 0871 or to 0845 and will 0871 owners change their numbers?

Opinions gratefully received

Sorry if this has been covered previously

The BBC and government departments and charities still using these 0870 numbers at this stage will in my opinion keep them and lose the revenue share, having been shamed out of moving to another revenue share number on 0871.

Everyone else like Sky in particular and all their numerous commercial counterparts like banks will move either to an uncontrolled 5p per minute at all times 0844 number or to a watered down ICSTIS controlled number at 10p per minute at all times on 0871.  No one will move to 0845 as the revenue share on 0845 off peak is far too low to be attractive to anyone currently on an 0870 number.

Also no one will move to a 1p to 4p per minute 0844 number or a 6p to 9p per minute 0871 number.  They will obviously go either for the 5p per minute at all times 0844 number or the 10p per minute at all time 0871 number.  The companies concerned have no ethical concerns whatsoever for their customers or any concern about their own reputation with customers and are solely motivated by greed and so it is almost inevitable that this is what they will do.

thanks, I will be conducting alot of primary research in to this issue in the near future so I'll keep in touch

Another interesting issue to consider is the very difficult position faced by users of voice based 0845 numbers, many of which are government departments, local government or charities, by the crazy Ofcom decision to keep them as revenue share numbers after 1st Feb 2008 on the spurious grounds of not impacting the dial up internet business when dial up internet will be nearly dead by that date.

If users of voice based 0845 numbers (who originally got them many years ago in some cases when they were Lo-Call) want to do the right thing they now have to go the inconvenence of getting a new 0345 number charged at 01/02 rates that they will clearly start paying a fee on related to the number of minutes of calls per month received.  It seems very odd that those wanting to go on benefiting from 0845 revenue share can stay put while those who want to do the right thing have to change number, especially when just the opposite is happening on 0870.

Ofcom's proposals are utterly mad and illogical and will leave the public even more confused over what is and is not a standard priced number included in fixed cost fixed line calling plans and bundled minutes.  But all of Ofcom's senior executive board directors who agreed to this nonsense will have pushed off by the time it is implemented with the sole exception of Ed Richards, who is now CEO.

Yeah but dial up internet won't be nearly dead, it's still a bigger market than broadband in the UK.

But 0845 will be rereviewed in 2009

Surely not in monetary terms.  Only total number of customers.  But most of these customers hardly use the internet at home.  This is why they are still on dialup.

BT Wholesale do need to be forced to lower their base line rental cost for a broadband line and get rid of the connection fee if they actually want to convert most of the remaining dial up users to broadband.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2007 at 12:06pm:

The BBC and government departments and charities still using these 0870 numbers at this stage will in my opinion keep them and lose the revenue share, having been shamed out of moving to another revenue share number on 0871.

Or perhaps they'll be more thick-skinned than you think - http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1170506347

Cruz wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2007 at 5:58pm:

Or perhaps they'll be more thick-skinned than you think - http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1170506347

Or they will try to blame their outsourced third party production company for making the choice but obviously they could easily be forced to work to standard rules when it comes to phone numbers.

I still fail to see why various phone in shows on Radio Five Live use Freephone 0500 numbers while consumer programs like Points of View use 0870.  The whole thing is utterly mad and llogical.

Whole parts of the BBC act as though they are just like a private sector operator such as Sky and completely ignore the fact that they are totally funded by the tv license payer. >:(

they don't make profit off the phone-in numbers though

lucaltmann wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 9:20am:

they don't make profit off the phone-in numbers though

You appear to have missed 2 vital words at the start of that sentence.

They say .....

No they actually dont. An 0871 number makes at the absolute max 6p a minute this has to cover the cost of the number rental, IVR software etc and payment of the staff who answer the calls. 20 staff on £6 an hour is £120 an hour that requires over 400 5 minute calls every hour just to cover the wages.

lucaltmann wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 9:20am:

they don't make profit off the phone-in numbers though

Yes but why are the phone in programs on Radio Five Live using 0500 Freephone numbers that impose a cost drain when no one has to call these shows and there is surely an absolutely endless raft of willing cranks who want to get their views on air, even if they have to use an 0870 number to do so.

By contrast why should viewers and listeners who feel that the BBC has in some way failed in their public service obligations in broadcasting and who wish to make comments about that have to use a covert premium rate number that is especially expensive from mobiles and BT Payphones, thus creating the very real danger that the poorest members of the community will not be able to afford to contribute the same level of input on these issues as those from other sections of society.

Ditto re Points of View which is supposed to be a viewer feedback program on all other BBC television programs.

lucaltmann wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 9:41am:

No they actually dont. An 0871 number makes at the absolute max 6p a minute this has to cover the cost of the number rental, IVR software etc and payment of the staff who answer the calls. 20 staff on £6 an hour is £120 an hour that requires over 400 5 minute calls every hour just to cover the wages.

These things are supposed to be covered out of the license fee.  ::)

lucaltmann wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 9:41am:

No they actually dont. An 0871 number makes at the absolute max 6p a minute this has to cover the cost of the number rental, IVR software etc and payment of the staff who answer the calls. 20 staff on £6 an hour is £120 an hour that requires over 400 5 minute calls every hour just to cover the wages.

6p per minute?  Dream on.

Even using a BT line, the cost of calling an 0871 number can be as much as 3p connection and 10p/minute (see BT's Specialised Numbers Price List).  Strangely, although there are, indeed, some 0871 nunbers which cost only 6p/minute to call, very few of those used are outwith the 10p/minute category.  No prizes for guessing why that is.

In any case, all the costs you mention used to be costed into the business plan and not covertly funded from the use of premium rate telephone numbers.

You appear to have accepted that making money from the phone calls as a way of paying the staff etc. is acceptable.

It isn't to me.

OK that's fine but id rather it didnt come out of my license fee so I end up paying for some idiots with nothing better to do than call into BBC programmes to vote for celebrity ball room dancers and moan about the latest episode of Eastenders

lucaltmann,

This is the common misconception! The issue is not about whether any operator makes a profit from the covert Premiums after taking account of the cost of paying their staff to answer the telephone!

The whole principal of the switched public network has always been that the calling subscriber pays for the cost of a proper telephone call at the applicable rate, except with so called Freephone numbers (and then of course there are exceptions where the call is paid for twice over). The caller does not pay wages to the called subscriber to answer their telephone, nor should ever do so. This is what this scam is all about - deliberate deceit. A company employing staff pays them wages, out of their gross profit. If an operator offers a true value-added service on an overt Premium number and a caller objectively decides to call that number then they are agreeing to pay the Premium, except that as currently configured normal UK contract law is being manipulated and in reality contravened. There is no proper invitation to treat and acceptance, particularly with situations like Trojan diallers and Premium text messages. In the case of an overt Premium number, if the operator decides to use part of the Premiums received to pay their staff then that is justifiable, since an added-value service is being provided.

What organisations and entities are doing with covert use of Premium NGNs with queuing allowed is to rip-off their callers. It is all about greed, and by reducing their wage bill using the illicit covert Premiums they are just exhibiting gross greed, since they have already been paid by the caller in one way or another to provide the service, particularly since in most instances the call is actually about errors which the operating entity has made in actually delivering that service which they have already been paid by the customer to provide.

Absolutely. I do agree but not in the case of the BBC

lucaltmann wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 10:43am:

OK that's fine but id rather it didnt come out of my license fee so I end up paying for some idiots with nothing better to do than call into BBC programmes to vote for celebrity ball room dancers and moan about the latest episode of Eastenders

Voting lines for celebrity ball room dancers are a different issue as its not essential to call them.  Also they are on 09 numbers which are not covert premium rate and have their call costs clearly revealed.

People should be able to feed back their views on BBC programs for the price of a normal phone call and not a premium rate one.  And the most objectionable aspect of this scam, which you and your colleagues writing reports for these scammers so clearly seem to endorse, is that a premium rate number is presented to the caller as being Lo-Call and National Rate when it is no such thing.  Therefore they do not make a rational economic choice about whether to call it.  Had these scammers been forced to present these customer services numbers as premium rate then people like the BBC would never have dared to use them.

You seem to fail to acknowledge that many issues with companies can only be resolved via a two way phone call.  If you try and email the company often deliberately ducks the issue.  And as I said before you are clearly such an overpaid yuppie constantly selling the next ripoff consultancy report service, with probably a wife or girlfriend to do the household drudgery, that you seem totally unable to understand a normal consumer perspective on this issue.

Why waste our time Mr Altmann when you are clearly a paid  up card carrying member of the NTS call centre industry fraternity in spirit and are writing a report aimed at further aiding the continuation of their scurrilous and deceitful industry.

lucaltmann wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 10:48am:

Absolutely. I do agree but not in the case of the BBC

How is the BBC any different in how it rips off its callers.  It is one of the worst offenders in the public sector in still allowing the rude and badly trained ranks of call takers at Capita who answer BBC Information calls to continue to lie in their broad Belfast accents "that its only the price of a national rate call sir".

Just noticed that Going Places has changed the numbers for each of its branches from 0870 to 0871. These 0871s are listed on its website and on BT Phone Book.

This is an example of a company that likes to profit covertly and proves that 0870 was put there in the first place to get revenue. Should we be suprised that calls to these 0871s are charged at 10p/min at all times from a BT landline?  ::)

Dave wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2007 at 2:07am:

This is an example of a company that likes to profit covertly and proves that 0870 was put there in the first place to get revenue. Should we be suprised that calls to these 0871s are charged at 10p/min at all times from a BT landline?  ::)

Ofcom has been forced to do an investigation into the Pay Tv Marketplace to see if there should be a reference to the Competition Commission.  Can you see any reason why should it not do a similar investigation into the UK NGN Call Centre Industry? :-/ ;) ::)

If any organisation really has to make money out of calls to pay wages etc, why can’t they be honest and use an “09" number.