http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/watchdog+warning+on+0871+numbers/468767

<<
Callers dialling 0871 numbers should be refunded if they are kept on hold too long by call centres, an industry watchdog says.

Adverts for 0871 phone services should include clear price warnings, according to premium rate phone regulator Icstis, and service providers must give clear written or spoken pricing information before customers are charged.

The package of measures were proposed by Icstis to ensure callers can dial 0871 numbers with confidence.

UK consumers spend up to 35p a minute dialling 0871 numbers at a total cost of more than £300 million per year.

Icstis will take over regulation of 0871 services early in 2008.

The regulator's chief executive George Kidd said: "Consumer trust in 0871 numbers is critical. Callers should not suffer unreasonable delays. If they do, good business practice is to remedy the problem and offer a refund for the call cost."

Icstis (the Independent Committee for the Supervision of Standards of the Telephone Information Services) is an industry-funded regulatory body for premium rate phone services.

It is consulting on the proposed package of measures until June 28.
>>

[edit]by bbb_uk:

More information on this consultation can be found here.

The consultation itself can be found here (.pdf).[/edit]

I look forward(!) to reading this over the weekend.  It's 38 pages long so it's not upto the usual 100+ page that Ofcom likes to do with consultations.

From the ICSTIS Document - "0871 Services:An ICSTIS Consultation" p3
http://www.icstis.org.uk/pdfs_consult/0871_services.pdf


Quote:

We recognise that the parties affected by this issue are many and varied. Many consumers and consumer groups have an interest in the regulation of the 0871 number range. Many companies and organisations across the UK rely on the 0871 number range for some aspect of their business. They will all be affected by any regulatory proposals that we bring forward. Additionally, due to the forthcoming removal of regulatory support for revenue share on the 0870 number range, there is likely to be migration from that range to the 0871 number range.

So now it is officially recognised that there will be wholesale movement from 0870 to 0871. I'd put the 'likelihood' referred to above at about 95%!

Taken from page 6:


Quote:

From our pre-consultation research, it has become apparent that the use of the 0871 number range has some differences to that of other ranges currently within our regulatory remit. In particular, much 0871 number use is for customer service and contact centres where the outpayment to service or information providers may not be the main reason for use of the number.

Now that reads to me that ICSTIS think that any company using 0871 is not really using it for the money they receive from calls!  If this was the case and companies needed NGN's for their features then they could lower priced NGNs like 0845.  Therefore, the main use of 0871 is for the revenue they'll receive without currently being regulated at all and without consumer knowledge that they're using a (stealth) premium rate number.

idb wrote on Apr 27^th, 2007 at 12:32am:

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/watchdog+warning+on+0871+numbers/468767 << Callers dialling 0871 numbers should be refunded if they are kept on hold too long by call centres, an industry watchdog says.>>

I've quickly scanned through the consultation and I never noticed where ICSTIS states that consumers should be refunded if they are kept on hold too long.

In fact ICSTIS has no intention of ensuring us consumers aren't charged for being kept in queue even if its 20+ minutes as mentioned by some forum members for calls to Sky, etc.

bbb_uk wrote on Apr 28^th, 2007 at 8:24am:

In fact ICSTIS has no intention of ensuring us consumers aren't charged for being kept in queue even if its 20+ minutes as mentioned by some forum members for calls to Sky, etc.

And this must be one of the main points we make in our responses. A call that is queued for say 5, 10 minutes will generate at least as much as if not more than a call to a x p/min 09 number where queing is not allowed. Thus, 0871 isn't simply a step down from higher priced 09s, but may be more profitable than low-end 09 numbers.

Dave wrote on Apr 28^th, 2007 at 11:25am:

And this must be one of the main points we make in our responses. A call that is queued for say 5, 10 minutes will generate at least as much as if not more than a call to a x p/min 09 number where queing is not allowed. Thus, 0871 isn't simply a step down from higher priced 09s, but may be more profitable than low-end 09 numbers.

I totally agree.

I plan on mentioning the fact that consumer awareness of 09x numbers is pretty much well established so consumer harm/detriment due to lack of awareness/knowledge is very little.  Of course things like scams still happen on 09x but at least the consumer is aware that they are ringing a premium rate number.

Whereas with 0871, there is very little consumer awareness of either the costs or more importingly that they are in fact ringing a premium rate number by definition (whether a recognised/controlled PRS or not).

All that's gonna happen is that scams will all move from 09x to 0871 because they'll still receive income from the call (despite what ICSTIS claim and try and play down) knowing that it's basically all but by name unregulated from a consumer protection point of view.

I've always said that as a consumer we should know in advance that we are ringing a premium rate number (regardless of the costs per minute involved) so that then as a consumer we can make a more informed decision on whether to do business with that company or not.

If we are fully informed that we're ringing a 10p/min line (from BT landlines only) and the fact that the company called is gaining money from the call as well then that's fine. Any consumer knowing all this beforehand and still does business with a company can't argue/moan about call costs and the premium that the company receive from the call.

Of course none of this is in the interests of businesses at all and from what I've read of the consultation, it does appear that ICSTIS is putting businesses first and consumer protection/awareness last.

The regulator should have to publish a database of numbers and the contact details for associated service providers, to make it straightforward to find out exactly what company is calling. This will be useful for reporting silent calls and those who disregard Telephone Preference Service registration. This is how internet domains work, so why can't we have this with telephone numbers?

They must have this database, especially for 09 numbers, so they should put it online.

I will put this in my response to ICSTIS' consultation on 0871 regulation. The best we have at the moment is the ICSTIS lookup that provides the name of the telco which the number is allocated to. This is not forced to be correct as the individual number may have been ported to another telco.

I note that callers "Should" be advised of the cost of the call to 0871 numbers before they are charged....how will the 0871 receiver know what the mobile phone firm will charge me....or will I get the universal getout cliche "Calls from mobile phones may vary".

/\/\ike

Well I responded on the Pre-Consultation in forthright tones but they never emailed me about this Consultation.

When does it close. ;) ::) >:(

Not that relentless shyster legitimisers Ofcom or ICSTIS ever take any notice of what the public tell them in any consultations anyway.

To answer my own question it doesn't close till 28th June so unfortunately I will have time to respond. :( :'( :'( :'(

Its just that hitting your head on a brick wall is ultimately not a very rewarding pasttime.

I suppose that emailing all interested members of Parliament and asking them to respond might also be a good idea.

A brief summary has been setup concerning this consultation and can be found here.

bbb_uk wrote on Jun 19^th, 2007 at 6:35am:

A brief summary has been setup concerning this consultation and can be found here.

And why isn't this ICSTIS consultation and its fast approaching closing date of 28th June being mentioned on the front page of this website in order to ensure a maximum level of response? ::) :-/ :'(

I think that, while companies are free to choose to use the new 0871 numbers, there should be some provision such that companies like SKY should be required to provide at least a geographical number for sites such as trouble and customer service. I find it really annoying to have to PAY these companies to get them to fix their problems!!

TheArtfulD0dger wrote on Jun 20^th, 2007 at 1:03pm:

I think that, while companies are free to choose to use the new 0871 numbers, there should be some provision such that companies like SKY should be required to provide at least a geographical number for sites such as trouble and customer service. I find it really annoying to have to PAY these companies to get them to fix their problems!!

I agree with what you would lke to see happen regarding a compulsory alternative geographic number but as that won't happen we should at least push for call queues to be limited to 30 seconds and for big fines and the closing down of the 0871 number for any company that regularly over-runs the 30 second queuing limit.

A strict call queue limitation would put off loads of companies from wanting to even consider having an 0871 number.

Martin Lewis has started a thread on this on MSE here.

Dave wrote on Jun 20^th, 2007 at 1:41pm:

Martin Lewis has started a thread on this on MSE here.

Martin Lewis has just mentioned the ICSTIS consultation on 0871 numbers in his weekly moneysavingexpert email and encourages subscribers to it to respond.  He has also provided a link to the thread discussing the ICSTIS consultation on this website but unfortunately he has misdescribed it as being an Ofcom consultation.

But why isn't the 0871 ICSTIS consultation and its closing date now mentioned on the Front Page of the www.saynoto0870.com website.  Instead all we have is a link to the long closed 10 Downing Street petition.

How long does it take for Daniel to change this to a link to the ICSTIS consultation when there are only 10 days left to go for people to get their responses in???

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 20^th, 2007 at 3:07pm:

Martin Lewis has just mentioned the ICSTIS consultation on 0871 numbers in his weekly moneysavingexpert email and encourages subscribers to it to respond.  He has also provided a link to the thread discussing the ICSTIS consultation on this website but unfortunately he has misdescribed it as being an Ofcom consultation.

Martin asked me if it was ok for which I pointed out that he referred to it as an Ofcom consultation not ICSTIS. He's probably that busy that he thought he'd do it later and has since forgotten.  The important thing is that he has mentioned it in his email.

bbb_uk wrote on Jun 20^th, 2007 at 5:00pm:

Martin asked me if it was ok for which I pointed out that he referred to it as an Ofcom consultation not ICSTIS. He's probably that busy that he thought he'd do it later and has since forgotten.  The important thing is that he has mentioned it in his email

And what about the ICSTIS consultation not currently being mentioned and linked to on the home page of this website instead of there being only a link to the long closed 10 Downing Street Petition??  :-? :o :'(

Neither you or Dave seem prepared to answer that question bbb_uk. :-/

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 20^th, 2007 at 5:13pm:

And what about the ICSTIS consultation not currently being mentioned and linked to on the home page of this website instead of there being only a link to the long closed 10 Downing Street Petition??  :-? :o :'(

Daniel has done this today. A mass email is being worked upon and will be sent soon.

Dave wrote on Jun 20^th, 2007 at 5:19pm:

Daniel has done this today.

Or more accurately Daniel has done it in the short interval that followed the making of the suggestion in my post of an hour or so ago.  So its nice to know that the comments of forum members can be acted on so quickly.;) :)


Its almost right too except that the home page link just says its an ICSTIS consultation and makes no mention of 0871.

In fact I think we should really be saying "tell ICSTIS 0871 numbers must not become the new 0870 and that call queuing on all 0871 numbers must be banned".


Quote:

A mass email is being worked upon and will be sent soon.

A trifle late in the day what with summer holidays looming and all.  Although realistically most people (myself included) usually find it pretty hard to muster the energy required to respond to a regulator consultation until the final deadline is looming.

I just received the below email, although to an old forum ID rather than to my current NGMs Ghost one.  So it seems Daniel has been hard at work and all the forum's thousands of registered members will soon be getting an email encouraging them to give ICSTIS their views on 0871 numbers.

Well done for all your hard work in organising this Daniel. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=beer.gif] [smiley=dankk2.gif]

Quote:

-----Original Message----- From: SAYNOTO0870.COM Sent: 20 June 2007 21:29 Subject: SAYNOTO0870.COM - ICSTIS CONSULTATION SAYNOTO0870.COM Non-Geographical Alternative Telephone Numbers Alternatives to 0800, 0808, 0844, 0845, 0870 & 0871 Numbers. Awarded Website Of The Day by BBC Radio 2, and featured in the media, including on the BBC Radio 2's Jeremy Vine show, BBC's Working Lunch and The Guardian. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WE KNOW YOU HATE 0870 NUMBERS, BUT 0871 ARE JUST AS BAD (IF NOT WORSE) MAKE YOUR THOUGHTS KNOWN TO ICSTIS - CONSULTATION DEADLINE IS 28TH JUNE 2007 Dear Nongeographical_Ma, As you may or may not be aware, ICSTIS (Independent Committee for the Supervision of Standards of the Telephone Information Services), has released a consultation on the use of 0871 telephone numbers. In this consultation, ICSTIS’ main objective is to ensure that clear pricing information is given with regards to the cost of the call. ICSTIS believe there is nothing wrong with consumers being charged whilst queuing, even if over 20 minutes in some circumstances !! The deadline for this consultation is Thursday 28th June, therefore if you wish to ensure better consumer protection regarding 0871 numbers then please respond to this consultation. When revenue sharing ends on 0870 numbers, it is very likely that many companies will migrate to 0871 numbers. You have 1 week left to make your views on this matter official.  Details on the consultation and more information can be found by visiting the consultation area of the SAYNOTO0870.COM website.  Click here to visit this section.  If you have any queries then please post in the forum thread here. For those of you not familiar with 0871 numbers, these numbers are similar in nature to 0870 numbers, yet they are charged at a maximum per minute rate (from a BT landline) of 10p/min – Calls charges from mobiles and other telephone providers may be higher. Please take the time to visit the website and make your views known.  You can download and complete the questionnaire, or send your comments by e-mail to ICSTIS using the e-mail address on the consultation section of the SAYNOTO0870.COM website. The SAYNOTO0870.COM website can be visited by clicking here, or to access the Consultation information click here. Thanks again to you all for your continued support, Daniel (SAYNOTO0870.COM) Website Administrator -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have received this e-mail as you are a registered user on the discussion forum section of the SAYNOTO0870.COM website.  If you no longer want to receive communications from this site, please contact us by

It is wrong, wrong, wrong that punters should be paying through their nose, up to 10p/min, when kept hanging on when calling a0871 number. >:(

The sooner an end it put to this scam, the better.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF ORGANISATIONS LIKE BT AND TISCALI AND VIRGIN ETC. OFFERING FREE WEEKEND AND EVENING CALLS TO NATIONAL AND LOCAL NUMBERS IF YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW COMPANIES TO MAKE A MOCKERY OF THESE OFFERS BY PROVIDING 0871 NUMBERS FOR THEIR USE AND PROFIT.

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SPEND £££££ COMPLAINING ABOUT AN ALREADY SHODDY SERVICE YOU ARE RECEIVING FROM A SUPPLIER?

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF LETTING AN ORGANISATION KNOW THAT THEIR GOODS HAVEN'T ARRIVED.

DO YU REALLY WANT TO PAY FOR THE HONOUR OF ORDERING SOMETHING OVER THE TELEPHONE/

I know I don't!  I will avoid calling any company using anything but an 01, 02, or eventually 03 number and ensure MY business goes to a company that has enough faith in it's ability to make profit without clawing
a few more pence back from Joe Public.

Hi, has anyone started any petition on the Government website? Although it has not worked for road pricing over a million people signed it so MP's are at least aware of what is going on, not that they care of course as long as they get expenses to pay for these calls. My wife and I have completed and sent back the consultation document, probably another waste of time but hey we have to try or lie down and die.

We try where ever possible to avoid these numbers like the plague and like others will NOT buy from companies using these numbers.

Have emailed everyone we know about this, everyone should get it out into the public domain as quickly as possible. We still find a lot of people do not realise they are being charged for the 0870 numbers at the rate they are, when we explain it they are amazed and want to know more.

sunnylodge wrote on Jun 21^st, 2007 at 9:30am:

Hi, has anyone started any petition on the Government website? Although it has not worked for road pricing over a million people signed it so MP's are at least aware of what is going on, not that they care of course as long as they get expenses to pay for these calls.

It seems you are unaware of the recently closed petition on the 10 Downing Street website signed by over 43,000 people or of the pathetic response we then received from Mr Blair's office.

See http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/saynoto0870/

Here is the government response.

Quote:

-----Original Message----- From: 10 Downing Street [mailto:team@petitions.pm.gov.uk] Sent: 21 May 2007 17:19 To: e-petition signatories Subject: Government response to petition 'saynoto0870' Government response to petition 'saynoto0870' The e-petition asking the Prime Minister to "compel all organizations using non-geographic numbers (e.g. 0845, 087* prefixes) to also publicize an equivalent geographic number (e.g. 01* / 02* prefixes) where they can be reached (and which can usually be called more cheaply than an 0845 / 087* number)" has now closed. This is a response from the Government. Thank you for the epetition about the use of non-geographic telephone numbers. The first few digits of a UK telephone number are already intended to give a broad indication to the caller of the type of service and/or cost of the call. In general those numbers beginning 0870/0871 are the most expensive, 0844/45 in the middle range and 0800 Freephone free of charge. There are various reasons why a company may choose to use an 08 number. It is for a company's own commercial judgement to decide what type of telephone number to use. The independent Office of Communications (Ofcom) which is responsible for numbering policy, cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use. Neither can they demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number. But Ofcom knows that consumers have concerns that 084 and 087 numbers are increasingly being used by businesses as a higher priced alternative to ordinary geographic telephone numbers. Ofcom undertook a major review of its policy on these numbers and last April published a statement setting out a package of consumer-friendly measures. These include introducing a new range of 03 non-geographic numbers which will cost no more than geographic rates and restoring the link between the 0870 prefix and the actual rates charged by telecoms companies for national rate calls. These new measures are being introduced over time so, for instance, the introduction of 03 numbers has already started and the alignment of 0870 costs with national rates will come into effect in January 2008. These measures should result in considerably lower prices for consumers. The website address for the Ofcom document is: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/statement Ofcom is also extending the regulation of Premium Rate Numbers to 0871 numbers because of concerns that companies are increasingly using them and charging the caller much higher rates for services such as weather forecasts and sports' information. Consultation will take place this year but the main aim will be to ensure customers know how much it will cost them to call 0871 numbers. You might also be re-assured to know that the Government advised two years ago all its departments and agencies against their own use of 0870 numbers. By no means all Departments did use 0870 numbers, but where they did, they should now have been replaced with either geographical, 0845 (local rate) or 0800 numbers. Further information Subscribe to our newsletters Prime Minister's Office homepage Petition information If you would like to opt out of receiving further mail on this or any other petitions you signed, please email optout@petitions.pm.gov.uk

If someone could track down who James Marriott is they might also like to award him a badge for either "cretin of the year" or "lieing 084/7 number salesman of the year" for this petition on the 10 Downing Street website of which he is currently the only signatory.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/nongraphnumbers/

On further investigation I see the petition in fact closed on 10th June 2007 and that Mr Marriott found he was alone in his view that 084/7 numbers were a good thing that provided us with cheaper phone calls. :o ::) :'(

it looks like like normal play is applied - the organisations purporting to represent the consumer failing miserably, protecting big business instead. what's the point of these organisations?

EXAMPLE:

FAVOURITE SAYINGS OF:

ICSTIS           'sorry, those numbers are not under our remit'

OFCOM           'sorry, we don't deal with individual cases'

There should be a campaign to get rid of these organisations. most of the problems experienced by consumers are as a result of guidelines set by these same organisations (especially OFCOM).

alex01 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2007 at 9:56am:

it looks like like normal play is applied - the organisations purporting to represent the consumer failing miserably, protecting big business instead. what's the point of these organisations? EXAMPLE: FAVOURITE SAYINGS OF: ICSTIS           'sorry, those numbers are not under our remit' OFCOM           'sorry, we don't deal with individual cases' There should be a campaign to get rid of these organisations. most of the problems experienced by consumers are as a result of guidelines set by these same organisations (especially OFCOM).

Here, here to everything said.

Ofcom in particular seems to function only as a trade association for protecting the interests of the telecoms and broadcasting companies while also providing a well paid stepping stone to an even better paid career for former executives of the telecoms and broadcasting companies.

Even the so called Ofcom Consumer Panel (www.ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk) is Chaired by a former senior government civil servant (Colette Bowe) especially chosen apparently only because of her need for the handy extra cash and not because she has any sort of genuinely pro consumer agenda or crusading nature.

Just thought I might add this line to my response. Dont know if its worth it but done it anyway


"Every Company should make freely available on the internet an alternative geographical telephone number whether it be on their website or on any website that can provide these by means of a search engine"

Slightly off point but what about a system like

0871 1xx xxx at 1p per minute
0871 2xx xxx at 2p per minute
0871 3xx xxx at 3p per minute

and so on

DaLilMan wrote on Jun 21^st, 2007 at 11:34am:

Just thought I might add this line to my response. Dont know if its worth it but done it anyway "Every Company should make freely available on the internet an alternative geographical telephone number whether it be on their website or on any website that can provide these by means of a search engine"

It does no harm to ask for the alternative to be published but I doubt that they will listen sadly as ICSTIS inevitably believe in the right of companies to use NGNs and Ofcom are allowing them to make the rules on this basis.

More important though is to point out that call queuing is currently limited to 15 seconds for 09 numbers costing 25p per minute or more and so given that 0871 numbers cost 5 to 10p per minute we believe call queuing of more than 60 seconds should be banned and that if the queue is longer than this then companies should be subjected to large fines and will also have their right to use 0871 numbers closed down for at least 12 months.

Response to ICSTIS Consultation sent to Project Manager of ICSTIS by Maxadolf 21/06/07

I have just familiarised myself with the ICSTIS  consultation questionnaire and associated summary of its proposals.  It is extraordinary that, notwithstanding the myriad complaints of abuse using non-geographic numbers, your fundamental approach will make no significant dent into the continued perpetration of these abuses.  I seriously question whether the ICSTIS may be an instrument of the telecommunication industry and their clients with an agenda working on behalf of those organizations that use the system to generate additional revenue which, you know very well, is dishonestly acquired.   Do you have any idea of the sheer anger and frustration that members of the public have to endure because of these abuses, contrived queuing on 087 numbers being the most offensive?



Instead of producing a bureaucrat’s charter which you refer to as a “Consultation Questionnaire”, would your organization please use some basic common sense and resist making a career out of formulating even more opportunities for telecommunication thefts.  Any system that you propose that allows companies or individuals to contrive revenue creating opportunities without benefit to the public is plain criminal in intent and action.  Why cannot you people see this?   Why don’t you simply purge the system using the kind of common sense expected of the man on the proverbial Clapham Omnibus?   Anything that falls short of such common sense by providing new opportunities of fraud and theft can only lead to one horrible and disgusting conclusion: namely, that the ICSTIS and telecommunication industry along with their corrupt clients are working  to a common agenda that ignores ethical codes of conduct and the lawful rights of the public to avail themselves of an honest, commercial service.



Two criteria that the ICSTS show no awareness of, are:



Providing the public with a commercial telecommunication facility that does not double-charge the public.  Paying the Communication Provider a competitive rate is one thing; back-handers paid to their clients at the expense of the public is another, especially when the latter are the victims of contrived delays that are charged at premium rates.
Incentives to corrupt companies to continue generating undeclared, line revenues using the very system that you are proposing.  What is the point of setting up another corruptible system?


Please do not make the mistake of disregarding the sheer anger engendered by past  and present abuses perpetrated under the noses of the various “Regulating” bodies.  The public are not stupid!








>:(

What these companies do not realise is that customers like me see a prefix 08 and  ring a diffrent company with a 01/02 prefix

I am a small company in the office equipment  trade and can only congratulate the company bosses who employee these no brainers to come up with these  ideas of 0870 ect,  Just think some companies lose one customer at £75.00 callout so how many thousands of calls do they need to answer to recoup these losses and the  customers  future return custom .
I am enjoying several new customers every week turning to businesses like me with normal telephone numbers for repairs to their equipment as a protest to calling major companies .keep up the good work 0870  it helps customers realise small companies are cheaper and offer a more personal caring service. well done

johnday1 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2007 at 7:19pm:

What these companies do not realise is that customers like me see prefix 08 and immediatly ring another company with a 01/02 prefix I am a sole trader in office equipment and can only congratulate the company bosses who employee these no brainer ideas of 0870 ect, I am enjoying several new customer every week turning to businesses like me with normal telephone numbers for repairs to their equipment as a protest to calling major companies .keep up the good work 0870  its help small business !like me and also realising small companies are cheaper and offer a more personal caring service. well done

;D   8-)

Hello, I have read through this and want to forward the info by email to the people I know will be interested.  But like so many changes to telecommunications policy, it is like wading through mud and just as clear.  A lot of people on this forum and site, have really tried to make it accessible and someone has helpfully provided "model" answers.  I believe confusion has a lot to do with why people don't take the information and attempt to address the issue.

I need model answers!  Which are provided here:  http://www.saynoto0870.com/0871consultation/

but

(Q6) "Yes except that it is mentioned that within section 3 of the code that service providers also hold non-premium rate UK customer service numbers but that you currently think 087x numbers are ok. This is a contradiction as 0871 will be premium rate numbers hence why they will be regulated by ICSTIS. Therefore, it defeats the point of the service provider not holding a non-premium rate number but yet allow them to hold an 0871 contact number. It is suggested therefore that service providers be required to hold a geographical or 0870 number and NOT 0871 numbers."

What does it mean?

wacs wrote on Jun 21^st, 2007 at 7:26pm:

(Q6) "Yes except that it is mentioned that within section 3 of the code that service providers also hold non-premium rate UK customer service numbers but that you currently think 087x numbers are ok. This is a contradiction as 0871 will be premium rate numbers hence why they will be regulated by ICSTIS. Therefore, it defeats the point of the service provider not holding a non-premium rate number but yet allow them to hold an 0871 contact number. It is suggested therefore that service providers be required to hold a geographical or 0870 number and NOT 0871 numbers." What does it mean?

Basically, those companies that have 09x numbers are also obliged to publish cheaper rate numbers like 084x/087x.  It is stressed that this alternative number for contacting companies holding 09x is purely for complaints concerning their 09x and that companies can't provide another 09x number for contact - instead 084x/087x numbers are allowed.

Now what ICSTIS propose is that once 0871 is regulated by ICSTIS then companies must still provide non-premium rate numbers for those making complaints concerning an 0871 number however this would mean that companies using 0871 could still give out another 0871 for those that have an official complaint concerning the 0871 number.

Therefore, if anyone has a complaint with a company concerning their 0871 number that they shouldn't (although ICSTIS thinks it ok) for that company to issue another alternative 0871 to complain about their main 0871 number.

Does that make sense?

bbb_uk wrote on Jun 21^st, 2007 at 7:51pm:

Does that make sense?

No its complete double dutch I'm afraid I have to say.

Are you saying:-

"Although ICSTIS will control 0871 numbers they won't define them as being officially Premium Rate (as 09 numbers are) and that this means an 0871 provider can therefore also list an 0871 number as the only means of contact for complaints about their 0871 numbers.  And obviously we don't think this is fair and instead we believe they should have to list an 01/02/03 number for complaints about the 0871 numbers."

I think this is what you are trying to say? :-/

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 21^st, 2007 at 8:02pm:

Are you saying:- "Although ICSTIS will control 0871 numbers they won't define them as being officially Premium Rate (as 09 numbers are) and that this means an 0871 provider can therefore also list an 0871 number as the only means of contact for complaints about their 0871 numbers.  And obviously we don't think this is fair and instead we believe they should have to list an 01/02/03 number for complaints about the 0871 numbers." I think this is what you are trying to say? :-/

Yep, that's it.  Been a v long day and god knows how many times I've climbed the wall  ;D

Hello everyone,

I've woken from my torpor as a result of the mass (e-)mailout for which I am grateful.  
I've tried to navigate the ICSTIS site but it is even more baffling than the Ofcom one.

What I am looking for is the responses if they are published.  Does anyone know how to get to them?

May I take this opportunity of congratulating Maxadolf on his (her?) response.  It sums up everything that everyone feels and in elegant and expressive prose.

Fabian

Fabian wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2007 at 6:38pm:

I've woken from my torpor as a result of the mass (e-)mailout for which I am grateful.   I've tried to navigate the ICSTIS site but it is even more baffling than the Ofcom one. What I am looking for is the responses if they are published.  Does anyone know how to get to them?

Hello Fabian,

Its good to hear from you and a post from you on this site is indeed a rare pleasure despite the sterling service you put in on behalf of this campaign when you attended the meeting at Ofcom.

In answer to your question the little blighters at ICSTIS do their very best to hide the responses to their consultations but they can be found at the link below for previous consultations where you can find my own very strong opposition to their earlier pre-consultation on the 0871 matter. Not of course that they listened being entirely in the pockets of the call centre industry.  Here is the link:-

www.icstis.org.uk/service_providers/responsestoconsultations/default.asp

Unfortunately though the policy of ICSTIS seems to be not to publish responses to consultations until after they have closed and even then not for several weeks.  If you object to this as I do perhaps you would like to email their top brass with your views.  These can be found at:-

www.icstis.org.uk/about/icstis/executive/directors.asp

You might like to email the Chief Executive George Kidd, Director of Policy Paul Whiteing and Director of Standards & Communications Trays O'Reilly to express your displeasure at the non publication of responses received while the consultation is still open.

The key think Fabian is to ignore their questionnaire and just read the 0871 document and then object to the things in it you feel are wrong.

If you respond to the questionnaire then you will be playing their game by only responding on what they want to hear about while missing many of the key issues.

I look forward to reading your response to the 0871 consultation on the ICSTIS website in due course.

This is just to say thanks for the mass email that alerted me to the 0871 consultation, and this issue that is fast approaching as the changes finally come in for 0870 numbers.
It is frightening to see how many companies are already switching to 0871.  

Anyway response has been duly submitted to ICSTIS for what it's worth.  I shall be surprised, however, to see them do anything radical to change the direction we seem to be heading - but I can live in hope.  

Thanks again - Brendan.

Hello
I`ve submitted the ICSTIS 0871 Consultation document using the prepared answers, hope it gets somewhere.
Great site, keep up the good work

echo734 wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2007 at 11:57pm:

Hello I`ve submitted the ICSTIS 0871 Consultation document using the prepared answers, hope it gets somewhere. Great site, keep up the good work

The prepared answers were only intended to give you a starting point and not meant to be copied verbatim so I do hope that you translated these into your own words emphasising the issues that were most important to you? :-/

There is only 2 days left before this consultation closes so I guess I'll have to submit my response.  I plan on doing it tonight  ;)

bbb_uk wrote on Jun 26^th, 2007 at 6:44am:

There is only 2 days left before this consultation closes so I guess I'll have to submit my response.  I plan on doing it tonight  ;)

I'm in the same position as you.

Its hard to muster the enthusiasm knowing ICSTIS probably won't listen.... :(

probably?

Tanllan wrote on Jun 26^th, 2007 at 1:04pm:

probably?

Well one has to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

If they totally ignore all the feedback suggesting they must restrict call queuing then we will know that it is a definitely a conspiracy between the NTS industry and their chums at the regulators and that this consultation only amounts to the usual Blairite going through the motions of appearing to consult for the sake of it.

Also it is vital to suggest in one's response that the whole 0870 to 0871 and Ofcom to ICSTIS move is simply a deliberate elaborate joint confidence trick by Ofcom and ICSTIS to give the appearance of action while in fact the public is no better off.  That at least puts pressure on them to limit call queuing so that the public get something in return for paying 10p per minute at all times instead of only 7p per minute at peak times and as little as 1.5p per minute at the weekends with the present 0870.

Of course it might do no harm to refer to the previous suggestion by Ofcom Communications Director Matt Peacock dueing an interview on You & Yours that all firms running these numbers should be forced to publish their geographic alternatives.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 26^th, 2007 at 1:10pm:

Tanllan wrote on Jun 26th, 2007 at 1:04pm: probably? Well one has to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

I'm glad someone is trying to be optimistic.  I personally try and be optimistic but when it comes to NGN issue I do believe, without a miracle, we're up against a brick wall.  I personally believe ICSTIS is the same as Ofcom and really don't care about our concerns at all but I bet you most of their staff use the site database though to avoid ringing them even though they wont do nothing about them.

This consultation closes tomorrow, 28th June.

I'm currently writing my response now  ;)

hi ! just found this site after reading a letter in the halifax courier. i reckon this will save me about £40 a month on phone bills. also it does help prove that we are sleepwalking into a state/big business dictatorship,whatever your political colours.

big_t wrote on Jun 27^th, 2007 at 7:51pm:

hi ! just found this site after reading a letter in the halifax courier. i reckon this will save me about £40 a month on phone bills. also it does help prove that we are sleepwalking into a state/big business dictatorship,whatever your political colours.

Visit www.euphony.co.uk and you might find it becomes more like £45 per month.

As to the state and big business dictatorship business yes it is happening after 10 years of the devious and control freakish Blair and his chums in power.

CCTV cameras everywhere, GATSOs everywhere, enlarged secret police tracking your every post on the internet for non conformity etc, etc.

Unfortunately George Orwell's 1984 has nearly finally arrived in 2007.  All Blair needs now is to pass a law to put a broadband link and webcam in every HDTV and they will be monitoring you inside your home too.  Of course they can already do that whenever you by choice use a webcam on the internet. ;) :o

By the way I hope you also submit a response to the ICSTIS consultation.

Just pointing out that 084/7 calls are currently costing you £40 per month that you wouldn't be paying if they still started 01 or 02 would be enough to have an effect.

thats all too true old pal,it doesn't matter who's in power their all middle class ,all born & bred to keep us all in line. man will never rebel until he becomes conscious but will never become conscious until he rebels.keep up fight.

big_t wrote on Jun 28^th, 2007 at 6:15pm:

thats all too true old pal,it doesn't matter who's in power their all middle class ,all born & bred to keep us all in line. man will never rebel until he becomes conscious but will never become conscious until he rebels.keep up fight.

So you hate Thatcher but surely Tony Bliar has been just as bad.

Still the ruthless business people rule the roost but with the blessing of those who are meant to be pursuing the interests of the little people??

I knew I would regret it.

I spent 9 A4 typed pages detailing the litany of deception and double dealing by OFTEL, Ofcom and ICSTIS that will now lead to nearly every major commercial 0870 number user changing to 0871 and doubling their profits from the numbers on 1st Feb 2008.

As they will presumably be ignoring its contents entirely I clearly need to send copies to every MP who has been asking Parliamentary Questions regarding 084/7 numbers.

No doubt you mean changing to "0871" numbers and more or less doubling their profits NGM'sG? We know of course the migration is already under way and has been gathering pace for some while.

dorf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2007 at 12:15pm:

No doubt you mean changing to "0871" numbers and more or less doubling their profits NGM'sG? We know of course the migration is already under way and has been gathering pace for some while.

dorf its good to see you are still reading the forum if not posting often.

Of course we know the worst offenders like Sky (who now have their former Communications Director handily in place as the new Communications Director of Ofcom) will wait until 1st Feb 2008 so it will be too late for a public head of steam to build up against the Ofcom and ICSTIS changes before they are pushed through.

I particularly emphasised that an excuse for using 084 and 087 numbers always cited was that you never had to change number but now nearly everyone has to change number to either 0871 or to 03.  So even that was clearly yet another blatant lie as is almost everything that the 084/7 number venders tell us to justify the activities of their sordid little industry.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 29^th, 2007 at 12:08pm:

...As they will presumably be ignoring its contents entirely...

I have to agree. I don't expect ICSTIS will take any of our comments/suggestions seriously.  I seriously believe, like Ofcom, they already have made their minds up and are just going through the emotions to make it look like they want ordinary joe public's opinion.

A large part of my response was devoted to rehearsing the previous fake consultations by OFTEL and Ofcom where the public's views were consistently ignored and ICSTIS then reneging on Ofcom's clear commitment in NTS: Way Forward that 0871 numbers would be regulated as fully Premium Rate only for ICSTIS to try and wriggle out of this.  I also took apart their claims that there wasn't much consumer detriment in paying £6 per hour and suggested all calls to 0871 not answered in 60 seconds are auto disconnected withe the call auto refunded plus a 25p compensatory fee and with a compulsory voice mail messaging service or key tone entry based ring back facility provided and if the ring back is not provided in 2 hours and the caller reports this to ICSTIS then the company would be fined £100 each time.

I also concentrated on the likelihood these numbers would cost a fortune from mobiles and cost a fortune from or not be accessible from overseas despite airline customer service desks being amongst the most likely users.

I plan to email my response to a larger circulation list of MPs and journalists interested in 0870 but apparently so far blind to the threat of 0871 in due course.

I also pointed out that they had ignored all of my response to the Pre-Consulation and I refused to answer any of the questionnaire as it was clearly only focused on the needs of telecoms companies and call centre operators and written on the basis that 0871 numbers without call queuing restrictions or call price announcements were definitely going ahead anyway.

The thing is that the more numbers there are the more difficult it is to police them. They pointed out that the types of services on 09 tend to be different to those on 0871 and that has come about because of the lack of regulation.

One principal type of service is customer services which they called a 'secondary service' to a 'primary purchase' such as mail order. The question was raised about whether ICSTIS should get involved with the primary purchase which I think that the answer is obviously not. These are also 'locked in' type services and a phone call may be necessary where the retailer does not answer email.


Quote:

However, as recognised above, there are differences between conventional premium rate services where the service is wholly paid for by the cost of the call and those provided on the 0871 number range where the number is often a facility to provide contact with a company. While some revenue may be derived from the cost of the call, frequently the primary source of revenue is related to a separate purchase of goods or services.

This implies that the main reason that these sorts of SPs choose 0871 isn't because of revenue. Of course, part of the reason is companies' ignorance of telephone call charges and what they believe to be a "cheap call".

I also pointed out that from the caller's point of view it's not so much the revenue (or amount thereof), but the call cost. OK, so you can't have revenue without higher call charges, but when a caller chooses between different 0871 SPs (I am entertaining the way Ofcom sees it now) they don't see how much revenue they get, which may vary despite both numbers costing the same. My point being that amount of revenue paid is not relevant, but call charges are.

It is also apparent that ICSTIS is supposedly seeking to police these numbers, but because the SPs say that they can't abolish call queueing, ICSTIS won't outlaw this. So what's the point in regulation?  ::)

Dave wrote on Jun 29^th, 2007 at 7:59pm:

It is also apparent that ICSTIS is supposedly seeking to police these numbers, but because the SPs say that they can't abolish call queueing, ICSTIS won't outlaw this. So what's the point in regulation?  ::)

Why its purely to keep up appearances old chap. ;) ::) >:( >:( >:(

I have come across Federation of Communication Services's 0871 response here.

A quick glance at it reveals that they also surprisingly believe ICSTIS is placing too much regulation on 0871.

Consultations from ICSTIS are here.

Four weeks on, we are still waiting for publication of the responses to the 0871 consultation.

Just viewing the 0871 research report here (.pdf).  I noticed under section 2.x it states that calls to NGNs from landlines have fallen by 50% and the possible reasons for this are:-  

• an increasing volume of calls originating from mobiles
  
• the more frequent use of the Internet to gain access to the services and information
  available via non-geographic numbers
  
• the lack of clarity regarding the cost of non-geographic calls from both fixed and
  mobile networks is deterring end users from calling.

Over the past year or so, I'd say it's likely to be the last reason but also something that ICSTIS' research didn't mention and that is the use this sites database of alternatives.   ;)

As far as I can see, the (far too long) report is based on opinions of organisations who use 0871 and other 08x numbers and not on consumers.  Conclusions are based on small samples and again from the point of view of organisations.

kk wrote on Aug 19^th, 2007 at 7:36pm:

As far as I can see, the (far too long) report is based on opinions of organisations who use 0871 and other 08x numbers and not on consumers.  Conclusions are based on small samples and again from the point of view of organisations.

That was the basis on which I found both their 0871 Pre-Consultation and Consultation documents to be written.  Namely entirely favouring the interests of the NGN call centre industry and completely ignoring the best interests of the UK citizen consumer.

Whatever one may say about NEG at least one of their members of staff has the guts to actually put their head above the parapet here, whereas we never hear a comment from the overpaid useless loafers at Ofcom or ICSTIS from one end of the year to the other. :o >:( [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

I emailed ICSTIS (or whatever they're called now) over the lack of responses concerning this consultation on their website.

I was told that the non-confidential responses are expected to be posted in next few weeks at the same time as their 'statement of the future' regulation.  I take this to mean what they've decided to do over (lack!) regulation of 0871 numbers.

Although, IMHO, I believe ICSTIS had already made their mind up from the outset anyhow and was just going through the emotions because they are obliged to even though they've already made their minds up.

A little like Ofcom  :D

bbb_uk wrote on Sep 21^st, 2007 at 7:03pm:

I emailed ICSTIS (or whatever they're called now)

I think it's 'Phoneplotlost'.

pw4 wrote on Sep 21^st, 2007 at 10:29pm:

Phoneplotlost

LOL! I like it :D

Some responses to the 0871 consultation are available at:

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/service_providers/responsestoconsultations/0871new.asp

No responses from the 'general public' as yet.

I've never heard of TUFF (Telecom UK Fraud Forum) - this body really needs to investigate fraudsters-in-chief Ofcom and ICSTIS.

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/pdfs_consult/0871_industryresponses/tuff_0871.pdf

Seems like the highly competent ICSTS/PhoneScamPlus cannot even adhere to confidentiality requests from respondents:

RESPONSE TO 0871 SERVICES: AN ICSTIS CONSULTATION

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/pdfs_consult/0871_industryresponses/reality_telecom_0871.pdf

Full detail is provided in our response, which we would request is kept
CONFIDENTIAL.

Assuming this is in fact the confidential response, whatever the meaning of 'confidential' in this context:

<<
CONFIDENTIAL
Reality Telecom Response to 0871 Services: An ICSTIS Consultation.
We welcome the opportunity to respond to the ICSTIS consultation on 0871
services. Reality Telecom provides inbound call numbers to thousands of small and
medium businesses in the UK under the Call Navigator brand. A brief summary of
our main points is shown below, followed by more detailed responses to individual
questions raised in the consultation.

Please note that throughout our document we use the term information provider to
mean the provider of the content on the 0871 number. We are aware that ICSTIS
use the term ‘service provider’ to include the content provider, but we do this to
avoid confusion with intermediary sales channels who under current ICSTIS
definition are deemed to be service providers, even though they do not provide any
content.

[...]

>>

idb wrote on Nov 20^th, 2007 at 12:05am:

Seems like the highly competent ICSTS/PhoneScamPlus cannot even adhere to confidentiality requests from respondents: RESPONSE TO 0871 SERVICES: AN ICSTIS CONSULTATION http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/pdfs_consult/0871_industryresponses/reality_telecom_0871.pdf Full detail is provided in our response, which we would request is kept CONFIDENTIAL.

As of this morning, the response has been removed, nevertheless I took a copy of the CONFIDENTIAL response for good measure - it's useful to know what the scamming industry doesn't want us to know.

Good old ICSTIS. It's good to know that Britain's regulators know what they are doing. Publishing CONFIDENTIAL responses on a public web site.  

idb, don't suppose you've also seen the other balls up a government-related office has made today?  :o

Oh, and what exactly does the telephone scamming business not want us to know (having not seen this "confidential" document)?

jgxenite wrote on Nov 20^th, 2007 at 10:08pm:

idb, don't suppose you've also seen the other balls up a government-related office has made today?  :o)?

Yes, I was watching thhese events unfold while at work today. A monumental failure by HMG, compounded by its use of a NGN for those seeking help. So, those on cellular networks have to pay up to 40ppm to seek advice about a government balls-up. Will these idiots ever learn?!?! Do they ever read COI advice? I suspect a FOI is imminent, requesting just how much HMRC has taken from calls related to this c0ck-up.


jgxenite wrote on Nov 20^th, 2007 at 10:08pm:

Oh, and what exactly does the telephone scamming business not want us to know (having not seen this "confidential" document)?

It's a rather boring response - I can email you the pdf if you like - PM me if so. I feel like posting the whole confidential response here to be honest - ICSTIS has shafted me once before, and I suppose I'd get some weird sense of satisfaction in publishing what it has already mistakenly made public, however I don't want the sayno moderators to be put in a difficult position should ICSTIS complain and request that it be removed.

Yes, it would be interesting to see how much revenue they will generate from "concerned parents" etc etc. Unless the document contains any kind of monumental discovery, I'm sure I could live without reading it - got far too much work to be doing without having to read a gawd-awful consultation document from PhonePay-whatevertheyarecallednow. That said, I've just noticed that the report on the 0871 consultation on their website is also classed as "CONFIDENTIAL"...

jgxenite wrote on Nov 20^th, 2007 at 11:56pm:

Yes, it would be interesting to see how much revenue they will generate from "concerned parents" etc etc. Unless the document contains any kind of monumental discovery, I'm sure I could live without reading it - got far too much work to be doing without having to read a gawd-awful consultation document from PhonePay-whatevertheyarecallednow. That said, I've just noticed that the report on the 0871 consultation on their website is also classed as "CONFIDENTIAL"...

The research report is, as you state, classed as 'confidential', however the 'Reality Telecom' response was published on the ICSTIS web site on Nov 19 and it disappeared on Nov 20. It's obvious that ICSTIS reads this forum.

I wrote to ICSTS about a month ago asking when it was publishing the 871 responses. It has not replied. I have no idea whether it is covered by the FOI act - probably not - however I may just ask for allthe non-confidential responses to be provided to me if it refuses to publish these.

jgxenite wrote on Nov 20^th, 2007 at 11:56pm:

Yes, it would be interesting to see how much revenue they will generate from "concerned parents" etc etc. Unless the document contains any kind of monumental discovery, I'm sure I could live without reading it - got far too much work to be doing without having to read a gawd-awful consultation document from PhonePay-whatevertheyarecallednow. That said, I've just noticed that the report on the 0871 consultation on their website is also classed as "CONFIDENTIAL"...

I did have a laugh about Reality's response to ICSTIS Q9:

<<
Q9. Undue delay.
We agree with ICSTIS that this is largely a customer service and not a premium
rate issue, and that ICSTIS involvement should therefore be minimal. If companies
provide a level of customer service that is not appropriate for their customer, then
this is likely to be reflected in their long term competitive market position. It should
also be recognised that there are many ways in which customer contact can be
made, including internet, post and phone. These are all issues which the market is
best left to resolve and ICSTIS should not be involved in these discussions. We
believe that Option D represents a fair approach, though ICSTIS should only get
involved where there is clear intention to defraud callers through long delays. (It is
worth noting that Government helplines are among the worst offenders on call
queueing)
>>


Thus failing to understand that, due to every Tom, Dlck and HMRC using NGNs, there is effectively no 'competitive market position', either in the public or private sector.

Reality Telecom provides the usual lies so typical of NGN scammers on its website:

http://www.realitytelecom.co.uk/client/faq.asp

Q:  What is the cost of calling an 0870 number from abroad?

A:  The same as calling a standard UK number.

Pure BS. This is supposed to be a telecommunication company, licensed by Ofcom. It cannot grasp the fundamental ussue of calling NGNs from overseas.


Would you trust these people?!

http://www.realitytelecom.co.uk/people.asp

idb wrote on Nov 21^st, 2007 at 12:39am:

Would you trust these people?! http://www.realitytelecom.co.uk/people.asp

"Slater-Thomas has a gift for spotting and exploiting opportunities in the telecoms market." Being in the telecoms industry, I suspect "exploiting" is part of the job description.

I wrote, via email, to George Kidd last night complaining about the lack of publication of consultation responses from the public on the PPP web site. Just had a look, and it seems that public responses are now available.

http://www.phonepayplus.org.uk/service_providers/responsestoconsultations/0871new.asp

Including a response from a somewhat distinguished individual:

"I am Sir Brian Barder KCMG, a former British Ambassador and High Commissioner, now retired from HM Diplomatic Service and writing in a purely personal capacity. I have the following comments to contribute to the ICSTIS consultation on the future of the 0871 telephone number. My comments draw, as you will see, on those of the admirable SAYNOTO0870 website (http://www.saynoto0870.com/0871consultation/) but I have extensively re-written them here to reflect accurately my own personal views."

Didn't ICSTIS (or whatever they call them now) claim something like the use of 0871 wasn't that great hence why it isn't really enforcing any consumer protection methods.

So 0871 isn't that popular why the need to create 0872 and 0873?

And again if 0871 isn't that popular why when scanning the shopping channels on Sky or the ads in magazines, or most travel companies advertise an 0871?

With the 7 digits following the 0871/2 etc prefixes this would appear to allow for up to 10 million numbers, and it is concidered not popular! by whom?

OfCoN has today (5th February 2009) announced that the useless new weak as water regime for 0871 numbers and for 09 numbers costing between 6p and 10p per minute will be introduced by its buddies PhoneScamsPlus as of 1st August 2009

OfCoN claims that this means consumers will "be able to complain about excessively long call waiting times".

Well they may be able to complain about them but long queues will not be banned and presumably nothing will be done about them unless PhoneScamsPlus receives 10,000 complaints a week. ;) ::) :'(

OfCoN also claims that consumers will "be better protected from scams".  One wonders how they will be better protected when the 0871 code allows for deliberate consumer confusion with 0870 calls that are now part of inclusive call packages and when there are no price warning pre announcements before being connected to these numbers.

See http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/087prs/087statement/ for more OfCon lieing and obfuscation designed to hide the fact that it did a complete U-Turn on its earlier promise to UK citizen consumers that 0871 numbers would be subject to the full 09 PRS regulatory regime. >:( >:( >:(

I'd say what's new, but well... what's new?

jgxenite wrote on Feb 5^th, 2009 at 12:01pm:

I'd say what's new, but well... what's new?

The totally ineffective new PhoneScamsPlus regime is actually to take effect on 1st August 2009 instead of being endlessly postponed as it has been up to now.  Surely that's a fairly major What's New?

However, if it is actually going to make little to no difference on the regulation of 0871 numbers (what about 0872/3??), then it's nothing new really.

jgxenite wrote on Feb 5^th, 2009 at 12:11pm:

However, if it is actually going to make little to no difference on the regulation of 0871 numbers (what about 0872/3??), then it's nothing new really.

I really don't see the point of your post jgxenite.

Regardless of whether or not it is actually effective the transfer of responsibility for these numbers to PhonePayPlus is a major change in regulation.

Also excess queues on 0871 will need to start being reported to PhonePayPlus after August 1st to try to encourage enforcement action.  Only problem is that I highly doubt any members of this forum will be calling these numbers and the people who do call them will be wolly unaware of the new regulatory regime. :'(

I'm just pointing out that to the average person in the street, the change from Ofcom to PhonePayPlus will make no difference. I completely agree with your initial post, and I was (sarcastically!) pointing out that it's going to make little difference.

jgxenite wrote on Feb 5^th, 2009 at 12:19pm:

I'm just pointing out that to the average person in the street, the change from Ofcom to PhonePayPlus will make no difference. I completely agree with your initial post, and I was (sarcastically!) pointing out that it's going to make little difference.

But all you have actually managed to do jgxenite is to clutter up the thread with a load of irrelvant posts that detract from discussing the fact that OfCoN is now trying to slip this through just when BT's inclusion of 0845 and 0870 calls in call packages will make it even easier than ever to con consumers in to calling 0871 numbers without them realising that they are charged at a much higher covert premium rates.  Also OfCoN have gone on back on the idea that there should be call cost announcements for these numbers again making the scamming even easier than ever. :o >:( [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

idb wrote on Nov 29^th, 2007 at 1:16am:

I wrote, via email, to George Kidd last night complaining about the lack of publication of consultation responses from the public on the PPP web site. Just had a look, and it seems that public responses are now available.

How apt of you idb, to invent the abbreviation "PPP" for Phonepayplus or Phonescamsplus as some have named it.

The Directors of a company known as "PPP" have recently pleaded guilty to an immense fraud (though not quite in the Madoff league, although they undoubtedly "made off" with the loot).    

http://www.sfo.gov.uk/news/prout/pr_602.asp?id=602

Guilty pleas in a multi-million buy-to-let fraud
John Potts, Peter Gosling, Natalie Laverick, Peter Graham and Eric Armstrong have all pleaded guilty to fraud offences in relation to their activities as directors of the PPP property investment companies operated from Gateshead They are to be sentenced in mid to late March 2009.

Birds of a feather?    Tarred with something of the same type of brush?

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 5^th, 2009 at 12:15pm:

Also excess queues on 0871 will need to start being reported to PhonePayPlus after August 1st to try to encourage enforcement action.  Only problem is that I highly doubt any members of this forum will be calling these numbers and the people who do call them will be wolly unaware of the new regulatory regime. :'(

I thought most of the aspects of regulation that apply to 09 numbers, including queueing, weren't going to apply to 087 numbers even under PhonePayPlus.

What's the time limit again? 15 seconds?

It's as clear as mud, but, without wading through the code of practice itself, I think the only regulation in respect of queuing times published so far is that in the November 2007 document here (PDF)

Quote:

Delay/call queuing (5.4.2) Consumers should be provided with information regarding their expected wait times to allow them to decide whether to continue to hold or not, especially during peak busy periods.