Watching Question Time last night  I noticed that they advertised the number 09011 114 411, to contact them during the show  and states that normal network rates apply.   I thought that 09 premium rate numbers  must show the cost of the call and not use a cop out normal network rates apply.

According to the March 2007 BT Specialised Numbers price list, 09011 numbers are charged at ff1 rate - a fixed fee for the call of 24.7p incl. VAT.

If they described it as 'normal rate' or anything like that, it was misleading.

The upsides are it's an 09 number so most people will have realised it's not going to be cheap to call and it's a fixed fee (no per minute charge on top).

09011 114 411?
What a shame that they do not use 090 1111 4411, or 090 11 11 44 11. After all someone paid a lot of money for a "nice" number and then they waste it with a poor layout. Much like 0207 etc   :'(

jimjim wrote on Apr 27^th, 2007 at 11:18am:

Watching Question Time last night  I noticed that they advertised the number 09011 114 411, to contact them during the show  and states that normal network rates apply.   I thought that 09 premium rate numbers  must show the cost of the call and not use a cop out normal network rates apply.

Update:  I sent a complaint off to Icstis after the programme aired, and finally got a phone call from them the other day saying they could not take any action because the call cost was under 25p.

Should have asked how people are supposed to know the price of 0901 calls when there is no price information, but could not be bothered.  What is the point of complaing when nothing gets done.

*bump* I still can't believe that the BBC is still publicising this as "normal network rates".

I've sent the following off to NewsWatch (http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_3980000/newsid_3986700/3986771.stm) and will reply back *if* I get a reply:


Quote:

I would like to know why the BBC does not publicise the correct cost for the Question Time number (09011 114 411) when displaying it on the screen? To advertise this number as "normal network rates apply" is completely incorrect - there is no such things as normal network rates. It should say that the call should cost atleast 25p from a landline, with mobile calls costing more than that.

You might get somewhere with the ASA too, although I'm not sure if they can deal with what might be described as editorial content rather than promotional material - however they are certainly upholding complaints that 0871 numbers in adverts need pricing information, so I would expect them to do the same with an 09, even if ICSTIS rules don't require it.  (although they might take the view that people know 09 are premium numbers...)

True, people do know that 09 numbers are obviously premium rate, but to describe them as "normal network rate" is totally incorrect. It is really in the same league as saying 0845 is local rate or 0870 is national rate (even worse, 0870/1 as local rate!) In all honesty though, I really don't know why the BBC should have an 09 number for people wanting to join the Question Time audience. You don't have to pay for tickets to go and see other shows (correct me if I'm wrong) so why should you (somewhat stealthily) pay to go and see Question Time?

jgxenite wrote on Sep 21^st, 2007 at 1:19am:

You don't have to pay for tickets to go and see other shows (correct me if I'm wrong) so why should you (somewhat stealthily) pay to go and see Question Time?

Perhaps because people want to attend the recording and because there is none of this pesky regulation about not faking results?
That is, being able to get away with it.

Indeed. Pretty much all the official guidance now is to specify the actual call costs (in terms of a BT landline).

(Of course, when the official BT pricelist name for the tariff most of 0870 is charged at is "National NTS" then no wonder it still gets used!)


You could of course tke the view that using a 25p/call 09011 is cheaper for the customer than a 10p/min 0871 if the call is going to last more than a couple of minutes...   But THAT only goes to show how well 0871 deceives most people...

One phrase I've not heard for quite some time in relation to call costs  is "less than the cost of a first class stamp".  I guess that's because mostly, nowadays, they aren't ...   It used to be common though, when the usual route of entry was to write in..

irrelevant wrote on Sep 21^st, 2007 at 1:03am:

You might get somewhere with the ASA too, although I'm not sure if they can deal with what might be described as editorial content rather than promotional material - however they are certainly upholding complaints that 0871 numbers in adverts need pricing information, so I would expect them to do the same with an 09, even if ICSTIS rules don't require it.  (although they might take the view that people know 09 are premium numbers...)

Its clear from the email I had back from the ASA yesterday about the misleading Samaritans 0845 price indication in the closing credit of their Skins program that they will deem this as not an advert but instead information material within a program.  As a result of this it then becomes a matter for Ofcom's broadcast complaints division to deal with. :o >:( :'( [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 21^st, 2007 at 9:01am:

Its clear from the email I had back from the ASA yesterday about the misleading Samaritans 0845 price indication in the closing credit of their Skins program that they will deem this as not an advert but instead information material within a program.  As a result of this it then becomes a matter for Ofcom's broadcast complaints division to deal with. :o >:( :'( [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

Well you stand more of a chance of getting every business/organisation and government department to switch from 084x/087x to 03x than getting Ofcom to do anything right (or at least heading in the right direction)  ;D

jimjim wrote on Jul 13^th, 2007 at 7:48pm:

I sent a complaint off to Icstis after the programme aired, and finally got a phone call from them the other day saying they could not take any action because the call cost was under 25p.

This just shows how much of a balls up our telephone system is in! Icstis, the premium telephone regulator, cannot take action against a premium rate number because it is under the cost that is recognised as being a premium rate!! Ofcom will probably say it is Icstis' remit, not ours. All they will do is pass the buck backwards and forwards while the BBC continues to covertly gain revenue from a number that people will probably assume is normal network rate because people trust the BBC (well, probably less so now - why isn't this being reported as a breach of trust against the BBC?!?!)

Well, maybe the BBC has finally taken our comments onboard. However, it appears they are still ignoring our views on NGNs...

Question Time has a new 0871 number, and finally the BBC has said how much the call costs (unsurprisingly, 10p a minute...) Just shows that the BBC doesn't want to lose out on the revenue from their (now deprecated) 090 number. Wonder if their 090 has been cancelled, or whether people will be paying 25p to listen to an announcement telling them the number has changed...

Just incase anyone was interested, the new number is 0871 626 99 88.

Sorry to bring back an old thread,
But on QT last night David announced that they have a new no for audience applications which is - 0330 123 99 88
and on facebook the diane4leader campaign sent this no out of the audience producer - 01299 829299.

samwsmith1 wrote on Sep 17^th, 2010 at 9:54pm:

Sorry to bring back an old thread, But on QT last night David announced that they have a new no for audience applications which is - 0330 123 99 88 and on facebook the diane4leader campaign sent this no out of the audience producer - 01299 829299.

No apology necessary - this is a major campaign success for those who have been lobbying the BBC for years.

Well done for spotting it, some of us dozed off during an uninspiring family squabble.

I have made a blog posting on this with illustrative pictures and comments about the wording of the caption. The latter could generate further comment in this thread.

I suggest that we should celebrate this move and do all we can to use this endorsement of 03 to help spread the word.

samwsmith1 wrote on Sep 17^th, 2010 at 9:54pm:

Sorry to bring back an old thread, But on QT last night David announced that they have a new no for audience applications which is - 0330 123 99 88

Great news!

I've updated the listings so that the alternative to the 0871 number is now the new 0330 number.

Why wasn't the 0871 626 99 88 number replaced by 0371 626 99 88 (0371 is not used for anything else)?

With regard to the misleading caption, ISTR that "standard landline charges apply" is the text the BBC normally use under its 0370 010 66 76 number caption at then end of its Newswatch programme.  Why this one should be any different is beyond me.

Heinz wrote on Sep 18^th, 2010 at 2:59pm:

Why wasn't the 0871 626 99 88 number replaced by 0371 626 99 88 (0371 is not used for anything else)? With regard to the misleading caption, ISTR that "standard landline charges apply" is the text the BBC normally use under its 0370 010 66 76 number caption at then end of its Newswatch programme.  Why this one should be any different is beyond me.

Only the 0345 and 0370 ranges are reserved for migration, by those with legacy 0845 and 0870 numbers from the days when "everyone" had a BT landline.

Only 31.4% of residential calls are now originated from BT landlines, and the normal rate for a geographic call from a landline is 0p, but some are taking their time to recognise this.

A quick trip around the BBC shows many different ways of referring to the cost of calling 03 numbers.

Even Newswatch, with its own special captions for contact information, has not always been a shining beacon of accuracy, as shown by this example from 18 July 2008.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidhickson/03/NW1.gif

It does indeed now show the necessary simple and fully accurate information, as at 17 September 2010. (I spent ages trying to recall   what ISTR meant, but ISTR it now!)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidhickson/03/NW2.gif

Glad I could be of some use - I just noticed as soon as he said we have a new number.
I stated with an apology as the thread hadn't been touched for a couple of years and some forums and a bit funny if you bring back an old thread.
SCV I agree with the cpation comments you made on your blog post - it's very true with them saying may not be included etc.

It took more than a dozen (IIRC) emails to get Newswatch to change that 3p caption - but success resulted (eventually).


SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 12:43am:

(I spent ages trying to recall what ISTR meant, but ISTR it now!)

I have moments like that too - which is why I store http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ISTR in my favorites (sic).

Heinz wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 8:59am:

I have moments like that too - which is why I store http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ISTR in my favorites (sic).

I use this, which seems to be more user friendly;- http://www.magicpub.com/netprimer/acronyms.html

derrick wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 11:01am:

I use this, which seems to be more user friendly;- http://www.magicpub.com/netprimer/acronyms.html

But less comprehensive - ISTR isn't there!

KK (the first meaning)?

Heinz wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 8:34am:

But less comprehensive

"The Free Dictionary" also has a nice Google Toolbar button.

Select the word, click the book icon, get the definition and thesaurus entries. One more click for the acronyms.

As good as any accelerator I have found. Thanks for the tip.

---

Back to the topic.

Some quick research has shown 19 local BBC stations in England with 0845 numbers for phone-ins / enquiries (vs. 19 with local numbers). This could provide a good opportunity to get at them - "If an independent production company can get it right - why can't you?"

Looking at BBC Local Radio - In my case Sussex and Surrey they have an 0845 Number!

It does beg the question if they can do it Nationally - Radio 1 being an example and I believe Radio 3 - 03700 numbers, why can't they just do it locally as well ?

CJT-80 wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 10:51am:

Looking at BBC Local Radio - In my case Sussex and Surrey they have an 0845 Number!

They also have this number

01273 320428

CJT-80 wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 10:51am:

Looking at BBC Local Radio - In my case Sussex and Surrey they have an 0845 Number! It does beg the question if they can do it Nationally - Radio 1 being an example and I believe Radio 3 - 03700 numbers, why can't they just do it locally as well ?

The former "Southern Counties Radio" is a very interesting case, as the now two separate channels share many broadcasts.

Surrey has a 03700 number, Sussex has retained its 0845. For phone-ins, it depends which studio the broadcast is coming from.

On the general question, the decisions are made locally, although a national directive could be issued. The original plan was to use 0870 for national services and 0845 for local, which when we all had BT landlines (if ever) was a good policy. For local stations which spanned more than 2 charging areas, listeners could all call at a local rate. For national stations, London callers had no advantage.

The above is now ancient history. All the 0870's have been dealt with, but many of the 0845s remain.

I can only assume that there was a long and particularly aggressive contract with their telecoms supplier by Mentorn (the production company for the program).  I did also register a further new complaint with the BBC about this number at the point at which 0871 became officially subject to premium rate regulation by PhonePayPlus.  The irony of people interested in making their point of view heard democratically being ripped off in order to do so was also surely rather hard to justify.

I think anyone who lives in the reception area of a BBC local radio station that still uses an 0845 number should be immediately registering a renewed complaint about these numbers with both the radio station itself and also with both the BBC (via www.bbc.co.uk/complaints and by email with the BBC Trust at trust.enquiries@bbc.co.uk)

I have also been equally amazed to discover just now that the BBC's TV Licensing section have also finally succumbed to public pressure on this matter and that at www.tvlicensing.co.uk/contact-us/question/ they now list an 0300 number of 0300 790 6131 to contact them even though this web page is rather hard to find on their website and they do everything they possibly can to give you a standard FAQ answer or make you ask them a question via a Contact Us web form instead.

Nonetheless the change has been made and I trust that Dave will therefore be extremely pleased to update all the Tv Licensing entries in the database to show the new 0300 number as an alternative for the former 0844 numbers.  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

However the fact that even the formerly notorious and wholly unrepentant BBC Tv Licensing department has now thrown in the towel on the more odious use of 0844 numbers (not even part of BT landline call packages) suggests that it must surely only need a small amount of further pressure to force the BBC radio stations to all move to 03 numbers.  In fact I think an email to all BBC Trust and BBC Executive board members welcoming the move to 03 numbers by Question Time and TV Licensing but mourning their continued use by some BBC radio stations might well help achieve that very point.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 11:18am:

CJT-80 wrote on Sep 20th, 2010 at 10:51am: Looking at BBC Local Radio - In my case Sussex and Surrey they have an 0845 Number! It does beg the question if they can do it Nationally - Radio 1 being an example and I believe Radio 3 - 03700 numbers, why can't they just do it locally as well ? The former "Southern Counties Radio" is a very interesting case, as the now two separate channels share many broadcasts. Surrey has a 03700 number, Sussex has retained its 0845. For phone-ins, it depends which studio the broadcast is coming from. On the general question, the decisions are made locally, although a national directive could be issued. The original plan was to use 0870 for national services and 0845 for local, which when we all had BT landlines (if ever) was a good policy. For local stations which spanned more than 2 charging areas, listeners could all call at a local rate. For national stations, London callers had no advantage. The above is now ancient history. All the 0870's have been dealt with, but many of the 0845s remain.

I have submitted a complaint via the BBC website regarding BBC Radio Sussex's continued use of an 0845 Number.

I await their response.

CJT-80 wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:13am:

I have submitted a complaint via the BBC website regarding BBC Radio Sussex's continued use of an 0845 Number. I await their response.

Have you also pointed out to them the fact that all other BBC contact numbers ranging from their main television feedback number (BBC Information) through to Question Time and BBC Licensing have now moved to 03 numbers and that BBC radio stations who still continue to use 0845 are the odd man out.

Also have you carefully explained the benefits of 03 numbers in terms of their inclusiveness in all bundled minutes packages including mobile phone bundled minutes  (0845 numbers are only included on some landline call packages) and the fact that they are also not charged at a premium rate that is 900% higher per minute than an 01/02 number from a BT Payphone (as is unfortunately the case with 0845 numbers).  Otherwise you may simply get back the usual tosh about 0845 numbers being local rate and the same to call from everywhere etc, etc.

You might also care to refer to the advice in the Central Office of Information's Better Practice Guide For Government Contact Centres Third Edition and Sir David Varney's report on Transforming Government Services in respect to the importance of ensuring affordability in calling costs for all citizens using government provided services.

Hello NGMsGhost,

I decided to keep it short and sweet, however I did point out the fact most central departments INC the number to complain had been switched to an 03 number, I also pointed out Surrey had been moved to an 03 number as well.

I will see what the have to say before giving them more of a fight.

I have also contacted National Rail Enquiries.

I will link to the post shortly,

Link to National Rail Enquiries post - http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1116613395/60

If anyone wishes to complain about the local radio stations, there is a list from some brief research at the bottom of this item.

In the case of local radio stations, they would probably prefer to adopt a geographic (rather than 03) number. The original reason for 0845 was only to enable listeners in remote parts of the area served to be assured of a local rate call (when those were charged differently), not to be non-geographic. They could have put this right at any time since 2004, they did not have to wait for 03xx!

It may not be wise to suggest that the proudly (and properly) independent BBC is subject to direction and guidance issued to government departments, no matter how supportive it may be.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:43am:

If anyone wishes to complain about the local radio stations, there is a list from some brief research at the bottom of this item. In the case of local radio stations, they would probably prefer to adopt a geographic (rather than 03) number. The original reason for 0845 was only to enable listeners in remote parts of the area served to be assured of a local rate call (when those were charged differently), not to be non-geographic. They could have put this right at any time since 2004, they did not have to wait for 03xx! It may not be wise to suggest that the proudly (and properly) independent BBC is subject to direction and guidance issued to government departments, no matter how supportive it may be.

I did wonder why they couldn't just use a geo no!
Radio york uses 01904 641351 & 01904 641641
North Yorks Nos are here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/york/hi/contact_us/newsid_8127000/8127070.stm