I have just received the following claptrap and utter tissue of lies by email from the 10 Downing Street Website in response to my signature to the now closed Petition Asking For an Alternative to all 084 and 087 Numbers.

Note that this response is not signed by Tony Blair, unlike the one giving good news about the Red Arrows, and basically represents the stock propaganda Ofcom line pretending it is doing something, when it is in fact doing everything in its power to make it as easy as possible for the 084/7 scammers to go on scamming.

Here it is in all its disgusting cynicalness.  Meanwhile Messrs Carter, Meek, Williams and Peacock ride off into the sunset to even higher paid salaries elsewhere and are totally unaccountable for their past total failure to serve the best interests of the UK citizen consumer regarding this matter. :o >:( :'(


Quote:

-----Original Message----- From: 10 Downing Street [mailto:team@petitions.pm.gov.uk] Sent: 21 May 2007 17:19 To: e-petition signatories Subject: Government response to petition 'saynoto0870' Government response to petition 'saynoto0870' The e-petition asking the Prime Minister to "compel all organizations using non-geographic numbers (e.g. 0845, 087* prefixes) to also publicize an equivalent geographic number (e.g. 01* / 02* prefixes) where they can be reached (and which can usually be called more cheaply than an 0845 / 087* number)" has now closed. This is a response from the Government. Thank you for the epetition about the use of non-geographic telephone numbers. The first few digits of a UK telephone number are already intended to give a broad indication to the caller of the type of service and/or cost of the call. In general those numbers beginning 0870/0871 are the most expensive, 0844/45 in the middle range and 0800 Freephone free of charge. There are various reasons why a company may choose to use an 08 number. It is for a company's own commercial judgement to decide what type of telephone number to use. The independent Office of Communications (Ofcom) which is responsible for numbering policy, cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use. Neither can they demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number. But Ofcom knows that consumers have concerns that 084 and 087 numbers are increasingly being used by businesses as a higher priced alternative to ordinary geographic telephone numbers. Ofcom undertook a major review of its policy on these numbers and last April published a statement setting out a package of consumer-friendly measures. These include introducing a new range of 03 non-geographic numbers which will cost no more than geographic rates and restoring the link between the 0870 prefix and the actual rates charged by telecoms companies for national rate calls. These new measures are being introduced over time so, for instance, the introduction of 03 numbers has already started and the alignment of 0870 costs with national rates will come into effect in January 2008. These measures should result in considerably lower prices for consumers. The website address for the Ofcom document is: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/statement Ofcom is also extending the regulation of Premium Rate Numbers to 0871 numbers because of concerns that companies are increasingly using them and charging the caller much higher rates for services such as weather forecasts and sports' information. Consultation will take place this year but the main aim will be to ensure customers know how much it will cost them to call 0871 numbers. You might also be re-assured to know that the Government advised two years ago all its departments and agencies against their own use of 0870 numbers. By no means all Departments did use 0870 numbers, but where they did, they should now have been replaced with either geographical, 0845 (local rate) or 0800 numbers. Further information Subscribe to our newsletters Prime Minister's Office homepage Petition information If you would like to opt out of receiving further mail on this or any other petitions you signed, please email optout@petitions.pm.gov.uk

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments NGM.   This Government response is even more evasive, erroneous, misleading and annoying than we might have expected.

I  urge you now to write an open personal letter to the PM telling him what you think of the Response and what you think of Ofcom in relation to this matter.   I think the use of 087/084 by Government Departments and Agencies truly is immoral and unacceptable and they should certainly be compelled to publish their geographic numbers alongside.  The use of 0844 by Doctors is particularly distasteful and should be stopped immediately.

loddon wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 5:24pm:

The use of 0844 by Doctors is particularly distasteful and should be stopped immediately.

Not to mention Patientline, which I now have personal experience of my mother unexpectedly being on the other end of in a situation where they were about to wheel her off to the theatre in a few minutes time.  That felt totally like extortion and blackmail and it is really horrible as if you complain about it to the ward sister or whatever you are then made to feel like Scrooge for complaining about a call that may cost £20 when for all you know your 72 year old mother may not come out of the general anaesthesia she is about to undergo for her operation.  Its truly shocking Patientline has not been stopped and the outgoing charges have now been doubled.

Come on, NGM. be honest. Did you really expect anything else?  :(

A bunch of oxygen thieves, all of them......

mikeinnc wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 10:19pm:

Come on, NGM. be honest. Did you really expect anything else?  :( A bunch of oxygen thieves, all of them......

Are you referring to Patientline or the Downing Street petition response? :-?

Quote:

From: 10 Downing Street [mailto:team@petitions.pm.gov.uk] Sent: 21 May 2007 17:19 To: e-petition signatories Subject: Government response to petition 'saynoto0870' By no means all Departments did use 0870 numbers, but where they did, they should now have been replaced with either geographical, 0845 (local rate) or 0800 numbers.

So now we have it from the Government itself - 0845 is local rate. No caveats, no "other tariffs may vary," no disclaimers. They've been taken in by the very lie whose existence they deny.

Dear Gordon/Tony

On BT option 1 - the most common tariff:

60 minutes to Penzance from Inverness on a proper 01 number at 7pm on a weekday costs 5.5p
60 minutes to an 0845 number at the same time on the same day costs 60p

How on earth can you then call 0845 be "local rate" if it's over 10 times more expensive than the longest distance call I can think of? And for anyone on a payphone, a mobile phone or a more cost effective tariff than BT, the differential is even greater.

Are you sure you're not lying again? (Please don't tell me you believed what OFCON told you...?)

GrahamH wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 11:25pm:

So now we have it from the Government itself - 0845 is local rate. No caveats, no "other tariffs may vary," no disclaimers. They've been taken in by the very lie whose existence they deny.

I missed that so well done for pointing it out.

This is an appalling error when 0845 is to become the main pariah hidden premium rate once 0870 is changed to geographic pricing for most calls (if of course it actually is).

This response is a complete load of lies and spin. They have, of course, taken this in its literal meaning and defended the fact they "cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use."

Say no to 0870 is not about banning premium numbers in principle, but about allowing the consumer to make a fair educated decision and not being lied to that this is "national rate".

It goes on to say that they cannot "demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number." So how are 03 UK-wide Numbers going to work then?  ::)


Quote:

These new measures are being introduced over time so, for instance, the introduction of 03 numbers has already started and the alignment of 0870 costs with national rates will come into effect in January 2008.

I think they mean February 2008, or do they mean 32 January 2008?  :-?


Quote:

Ofcom is also extending the regulation of Premium Rate Numbers to 0871 numbers because of concerns that companies are increasingly using them and charging the caller much higher rates for services such as weather forecasts and sports' information.

"Much higher" than what? If pricing information was clear, then we would all know where we stand.


Quote:

Consultation will take place this year but the main aim will be to ensure customers know how much it will cost them to call 0871 numbers.

The consultation was published last month. So when was this written? What about other 0870 and 084 numbers then?

Note the last paragraph of this email I received yesterday from 10 Downing Street. Obviously the Prime Minister never rings the DVLA!

/\/\ike

Thank you for the epetition about the use of non-geographic telephone numbers.

The first few digits of a UK telephone number are already intended to give a broad indication to the caller of the type of service and/or cost of the call. In general those numbers beginning 0870/0871 are the most expensive, 0844/45 in the middle range and 0800 Freephone free of charge.

There are various reasons why a company may choose to use an 08 number. It is for a company's own commercial judgement to decide what type of telephone number to use.

The independent Office of Communications (Ofcom) which is responsible for numbering policy, cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use. Neither can they demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number.

But Ofcom knows that consumers have concerns that 084 and 087 numbers are increasingly being used by businesses as a higher priced alternative to ordinary geographic telephone numbers. Ofcom undertook a major review of its policy on these numbers and last April published a statement setting out a package of consumer-friendly measures.

These include introducing a new range of 03 non-geographic numbers which will cost no more than geographic rates and restoring the link between the 0870 prefix and the actual rates charged by telecoms companies for national rate calls.

These new measures are being introduced over time so, for instance, the introduction of 03 numbers has already started and the alignment of 0870 costs with national rates will come into effect in January 2008. These measures should result in considerably lower prices for consumers. The website address for the Ofcom document is:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/statement

Ofcom is also extending the regulation of Premium Rate Numbers to 0871 numbers because of concerns that companies are increasingly using them and charging the caller much higher rates for services such as weather forecasts and sports' information. Consultation will take place this year but the main aim will be to ensure customers know how much it will cost them to call 0871 numbers.

You might also be re-assured to know that the Government advised two years ago all its departments and agencies against their own use of 0870 numbers.

By no means all Departments did use 0870 numbers, but where they did, they should now have been replaced with either geographical, 0845 (local rate) or 0800 numbers

Quote:

The independent Office of Communications (Ofcom) which is responsible for numbering policy, cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use. Neither can they demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number.

And it goes on to say "0845 (local rate)". These two points contradict one another.  :-?

Or when they say "link", do they mean link that telephone numbers rather than call rate? In which case, it is the 08x number that is "linked" to the 01/02 number and not the other way around.

Dave wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 10:45am:

Quote: The independent Office of Communications (Ofcom) which is responsible for numbering policy, cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use. Neither can they demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number. And it goes on to say "0845 (local rate)". These two points contradict one another.  :-? Or when they say "link", do they mean link that telephone numbers rather than call rate? In which case, it is the 08x number that is "linked" to the 01/02 number and not the other way around.

I just e-mailed a reply pointing out the 0845 error and demanding a correction - if we all do this it might give them something to think about.

Or am I being naive :-/

farci wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 10:49am:

Dave wrote on May 22nd, 2007 at 10:45am: Quote: The independent Office of Communications (Ofcom) which is responsible for numbering policy, cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use. Neither can they demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number. And it goes on to say "0845 (local rate)". These two points contradict one another.  :-? Or when they say "link", do they mean link that telephone numbers rather than call rate? In which case, it is the 08x number that is "linked" to the 01/02 number and not the other way around. I just e-mailed a reply pointing out the 0845 error and demanding a correction - if we all do this it might give them something to think about. Or am I being naive :-/

:exclamation

Note that the patronising response from 10 Downing Street contained several lies and inaccuracies  -  but what else would you expect of the ultimater twister of facts by a PM in living memory?   For example, the PM is accountable for this blatant lie which is that government agencies have ben instructed not to use 0870 numbers.  What a laugh!  If you at this time attempt to download a land title from the Land Registry and there are problems  of their making, or you need clarification about their system, you need to phone an 0870 number.   Similarly if, when you receive your invitation to renew your TV licence you take up their offer of paying by Direct Debit, you need to phone them on  an 0870 number to set it up.  The bare-faced cheek of these parasites whose  salaries are paid by us and who know nowt about value for money, defies comprehension.

Maxadolf wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 11:30am:

Note that the patronising response from 10 Downing Street contained several lies and inaccuracies  -  but what else would you expect of the ultimater twister of facts by a PM in living memory?   For example, the PM is accountable for this blatant lie which is that government agencies have ben instructed not to use 0870 numbers.  What a laugh!  If you at this time attempt to download a land title from the Land Registry and there are problems  of their making, or you need clarification about their system, you need to phone an 0870 number.   Similarly if, when you receive your invitation to renew your TV licence you take up their offer of paying by Direct Debit, you need to phone them on  an 0870 number to set it up.  The bare-faced cheek of these parasites whose  salaries are paid by us and who know nowt about value for money, defies comprehension.

Maxafold.  I agree with everything you say.  How did you take so long to find us in view of your commitment to the anti 084/7 cause.

Unfortunately the New Labour government is one of the main causes of the whole 084/7 movement with several important New Labour business friends (one of whom got a peerage out of it) behind it.

The only way to get anywhere is for each of us to raise the matter with our MPs and MEPS and get our MPs to refer it to the Parliamentary Ombudsman (to whom Ofcom are accountable) for investigation and to the EU Commission and the Competition Commission for further investigation.

10 Downing Street, Ofcom and ICSTIS will all ignore us and our letters as they are all utterly complicit in and secretely supportive of the whole 084/7 ripoff industry, whatever they may publicly pretend to the contrary.

Hi NGMsGhost,

Thanks for the welcome!   About a year ago my son was suffering intense ear bashing from me because his company, a well known Bank, kept me waiting for 20 minutes on an 0870 no, a call that I had to make in order to register for the on-line banking facility.  He caved in by getting the department to phone me back under threat of my removing a substantial sum of my investments elsewhere (that always helps!).  He then drew my attention to the guy who set up the 'saynoto0870.com' and I've been benefiting fom his initiative ever since.  The guy deserves a gold medal!   As you know, the site were involved in the No 10 DS petition to which I responded and was severely insulted by the extremely offensive  and patronising reply sent out by No 10 to all participants.  I did send an equally offensive note to No 10 which  went part of the way to sublimating my anger at the misrepresentations, lies and half-truths, with no attempt to remove the corrupt system without installing a similar one to replace it.   But that's Bliar for you.

Now I'm registered with SNT0870, I'll get involved in the debates if and when something crops up to generate a red mist!

I would raise one new issue at this time.   Why is it that grafted telecommunication providers, such as Tiscali and One-Tel, cannot offer the 0450 numbers, which allegedly are at a local charge rate, as part of their "free" access numbers?  I can see why that can't be done with 0870 (because of the inbuilt back-handers to the users), but 0450s do not provide for such back-handers as I understand it.

Maxadolf wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 12:17pm:

… Why is it that grafted telecommunication providers, such as Tiscali and One-Tel, cannot offer the 0450 numbers, which allegedly are at a local charge rate, as part of their "free" access numbers?  I can see why that can't be done with 0870 (because of the inbuilt back-handers to the users), but 0450s do not provide for such back-handers as I understand it.

I presume that when you say "0450", you are referring to 0845 numbers.

The issues that surround to 0870 also surround 0845 to a lesser degree. But in principle they should be done away with as they are at the moment because the foundation that they have been built on is "local rate". Similarly, 0870 has been known as "national rate".

The very reason that these 0845 numbers cannot be included in inclusive minutes and often cost more than a call to an 01/02 number where these calls are chargeable is because they do have so-called micro-payments. It is more common to find that this is not shared with the receiving party with 0845 than 0870, but the telco providing the NGN does charge more than for 01/02.

Have a look at some of the pages linked to from Useful Information & Say no to 0870! Hot Topics.

Dave wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 1:54pm:

I presume that when you say "0450", you are referring to 0845 numbers.

Or is the OP referring to the 05 Voip number ranges I wonder.  Again these should be classed as geographic calls from a landline but due to greed and stupidity are not.

:-[Dave and NGMsGhost,

Many thanks for your helpful reply.  You're right, I did mean 0845: my mistake!

0845 costs the same as 0870 from a call box and both cost much more than 01 or 02.

Last year 0845 and 0870 both cost 10p for every 55 seconds or less from a BT call box.

kk wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 7:06pm:

0845 costs the same as 0870 from a call box and both cost much more than 01 or 02. Last year 0845 and 0870 both cost 10p for every 55 seconds or less from a BT call box.

See http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1168434954 (post #6).

Bill - Thanks for the link.

As you can see from the link,  0845 and 0870 cost about 11 times more than 01 or 02.  Another reason to abolish 0845 and 0870.

Maybe the PM does not use a phone box - just the voters.

kk wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 9:01pm:

Maybe the PM does not use a phone box - just the voters.

Tony may get a shock after he leaves office and he no longer has a government funded satellite or mobile phone always to hand.

I wonder how much a call to an 084 or 087 number from a satellite phone costs compared to a call to an 01 or 02? ;) :o

Unfortunately, once he leaves office, said satellite/mobile phone will still be paid for by you and I - this time through some Telco providing him with a free one, on the back of profits from 084/087 calls.

Just to rub salt in, doubtless he'll be off round the world telling everyone what a wonderful idea it was to create OFCON

Well, I am astonished!   Neither my husband nor I (who both signed this epetition as well as some others on the site) have had the courtesy of ANY response from Downing Street (to ANY of the epetitions signed)- what have we done (except perhaps be the wrong political colour?!)   That, to me, as much as the "inaccuracies" (strongest I dare use - in the Blair/Brown suveillance society you never know who's monitoring your messages!!) in the posted response, is an indication of the total contempt with which this Government treats citizens and, of course, that attitude filters down through all staff in all departments and provides absolutely no incentive whatsoever for civil servants to put the individual at the centre of their way of working.   I really do despair at times as there seems an impenetrable web making it impossible for anything to be changed unless it is the expressed will of the government.

Barbara wrote on May 29^th, 2007 at 2:22pm:

That, to me, as much as the "inaccuracies" (strongest I dare use - in the Blair/Brown suveillance society you never know who's monitoring your messages!!) in the posted response, is an indication of the total contempt with which this Government treats citizens and, of course, that attitude filters down through all staff in all departments and provides absolutely no incentive whatsoever for civil servants to put the individual at the centre of their way of working.

Barbara,

The most likely explanation is that it was filtered by your ISP as being Spam and is probably sitting in the Spam bucket on your ISP's webmail server if you can log in and see what mails are in that (mainly mails about Viagra and supposed bargain shares)

As to the surveillance society they simply haven't got enough staff available to be reading every email sent and things are not yet as bad as the old Soviet Union and Eastern Block (who used more labour intensive methods). Although give control freaks Tony and Gordon time and it will become that bad.

I wonder how?  Why??

When the Petition closed it had accrued 42,957 signatories.  It now has 43,002!!!!

Keeps on growing!!  You can't keep a real issue down!!!

loddon wrote on May 31^st, 2007 at 11:02am:

I wonder how?  Why?? When the Petition closed it had accrued 42,957 signatories.  It now has 43,002!!!! Keeps on growing!!  You can't keep a real issue down!!!

People who received confirmation links while it was open and hadn't yet clicked them to validate their signature can still do so after the petition closes.  Five seems quite likley out of 43,000.

Thanks NGM for your explanation.

I calculate 45 new votes have been added since the Petition closing date.  I expect there will be a few more yet.

loddon wrote on May 31^st, 2007 at 11:46am:

Thanks NGM for your explanation. I calculate 45 new votes have been added since the Petition closing date.  I expect there will be a few more yet.

People may suddenly come across the confirmation email weeks later when they check out their email provider's online spam filtering box for their account.  Most people only check that once in a while and some don't even know it is there. ;)

Due to the number of emails the 10 Downing Street sends out and their standard format they could easily have been classified as Spam by some email providers.

Another example of Bliar's spin where  he states in his response to the petition against 0870 numbers, that Government Departments have been instructed to provide alternate geographic numbers.  The invitation to renew your tax disc by phone gives the sole number as 0870 850 4444.   That's three  government agencies that I have needed to contact in recent weeks to renew or acquire something: Land Registry (for downloading land titles where there is a problem of their making), DVLA  for road tax by phone and  setting up a DD for TV Licence renewal.

If there was a law agin lying by politicians then Bliar would be given a life sentence for his numerous barefaced misrepresentations, some of which cost British lives!  The man is so out of touch with his job and has failed to listen to the electorate.  And even as I write, he is galavanting on a massive, overseas ego trip at tax-payers' expense whilst his successor avoids doing the job that he was crowned to do lest it upsets  the spin-doctor-in-chief during the "transition".   This country has become a rudderless liability because of the weakness of Brown and  the international joy-riding by a terminally incompetent and lying PM.

Maxadolf wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2007 at 5:19pm:

If there was a law agin lying by politicians then Bliar would be given a life sentence for his numerous barefaced misrepresentations, some of which cost British lives!  The man is so out of touch with his job and has failed to listen to the electorate.

Here, here, Maxadolf. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

I think the truth behind the "You might also be re-assured to know that the Government advised two years ago all its departments and agencies against their own use of 0870 numbers." statement contained within No.10's e-mail reply may just be beginning to dawn on me.

Was it because the final few words of that 'advice' were carefully removed before they were recycled and the 'advice' actually was, "You might also be re-assured to know that the Government advised two years ago all its departments and agencies against their own use of 0870 numbers because revenue-sharing will cease early on 2008 and they need to move on to ensure the stealth-money keeps coming in."?

You may be interested in reading the thread I have just started about the money spent by 10 Downing Street in making a video posted on the YouTube website to respond to the Make Jeremy Clarkson PM petition compared to their responses to our various anti 084/7 petitions.

See www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1219172169