It seems that the commitment of some of you on this site (along even with me) has been flagging in the face of the apparently insuperable forces of commercial deviousness against which we are battling.  But today shows there is always hope and that conversion can occur even in the most unlikely of previously 0870 loving places.

I speak of none other than Which as they now perhaps wisely call themselves or the Consumers Association ,which they more dishonestly previously used to be known as.  I say dishonestly because of the Consumer Association's well known and shameless love affair with 0870 numbers and with a very dubious sales method involving potential members signing up for a qurter of trial issues and being asked to hand over credit card details at the last moment on their website (when it looked like the trial really would be genuinely no commitment) and then having a policy of automatically continuing the sub and billing you unless you remembered to cancel

In any event on today's You & Yours (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/youandyours from minute 7 of the recording onwards) a Mr Bob Tolliday of Which (who Google shows to have previously worked at Holiday Which) was given a long interview where he strongly warned consumers of all the evils of 084/7 including even more outrageous charges from mobile phones to these numbers and also pointing out that to many people 01/02 numbers are free (due to cheap inclusive calling plans) compared to up to 8p per minute on 0870.  In other words almost spot on target and none of this stuff of it just being about 3p vs 7p per minute that the Forum Owner has previously mistakenly used as the main comparison.  However Daniel will no doubt at least be pleased to hear that Mr Tolliday did also give a mention to this website.

I therefore sent You & Yours and various people at Ofcom and the ASA the following email:-


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-----Original Message----- Sent: 07 June 2007 15:19 To: youandyours@bbc.co.uk Cc: bob.tolliday@which.co.uk; robert.pickard@which.co.uk; winifred.robinson@bbc.co.uk; liz.barclay@bbc.co.uk; katy.johnson@bbc.co.uk; katy.johnston@bbc.co.uk; peter.vicary-smith@which.co.uk Subject: 084/7 - Only 9 Years For Which To Get The Message + Matt Peacock's You and Yours Interview Dear You and Yours, It was interesting to hear Bob Tolliday from Which interviewed on today's (Thursday 7th June) program warning consumers of the dangers of using 084 and 087 numbers and the extra costs that they bring, especially for anyone with a fixed price calling plan for 01/02 calls, who would pay nothing at all to call a company that uses an 01 or 02 prefixed number for their customer service centre.  But why has it taken Which around 9 years to finally get the message on this important consumer issue when domestic landline customers, making their calls using the cheapest available telecoms provider, have been finding 084 and 087 numbers are a lot more expensive to call since as long ago as 1998?  Could it be because Which for a long time made extensive use of 0870 numbers themselves? The other thing that I don't think was properly explained on your program was the shameful failure of Ofcom to impose a clear cut solution that all consumers will understand and instead merely tinkering with the current system in a crazy way that will mean the formerly higher rate 0870 numbers  will be charged at 01/02 prices from 1st Feb 2008 but 0845 numbers (for so long misleadingly marketed by people like UK Police forces as being Lo-Call) will still go on being charged at a higher Premium Rate of up to 40p per minute on a mobile and 11p per minute on a BT Payphone (instead of a normal 2p per minute on a Payphone for an 01/02 call).  Also on mobiles and BT Payphones 0845 numbers are charged at just the same covert Premium Rate as 0870 numbers, and its only on a home landline that 0845 is actually any cheaper than 0870 calls. When I attended a Consumer meeting at Ofcom on their 084/7 proposals in November 2005 as a representative of the www.saynoto0870.com campaign the then lady representative of Which still didn't really seem to understand what the problem was or why anyone actually minded calling 084/7 numbers. Ofcom's lame excuse for not also making 0845 numbers the same price as normal geographic 01/02 numbers on 1st Feb 2008 (as will happen for 0870 numbers called from landlines) is that it would apparently be complicated for the businesses of dialup 0845 ISPs but by February 2008 hardly anyone who uses the internet at all frequently at home will still be using dialup, so this surely isn't a credible excuse by Ofcom, especially when Ofcom sees apparently no problem in virtually every government call centres now having to get a new 03 number and change all their literature as a result of Ofcom's stupid decision to put the profitability of dialup ISPs ahead of government contract centres being able to keep their existing 0845 numbers   In my view Ofcom's real agenda here in fact seems to be to preserve a lower value class of 084/7 calls so that the interests of call centre managers who just can't fully kick the hidden revenue sharing habit are protected.

Continued Below/..............

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What Ofcom should have done was to return the 08 code entirely to use by Freephone numbers only and then made everybody else with an 084 or 087 number make a choice between either changing to an 03 number that only charges for calls at normal 01/02 call rates or alternatively moving to a clearly signed 09 number (which everyone knows is Premium Rate) and where call queuing over 15 seconds is banned. Instead of this Ofcom have totally fudged the issue, seemingly because they have so many former senior employees from the telecoms industry and/or former employees from business that run large 084/7 call centres working there (including the former Head of Media Relations of top 0870 calls user Sky who has now just become Ofcom's new Director of Communications) that this gets in the way of them taking clear cut decisions to to properly protect consumers and control big business.  For instance although 0871 will be controlled by ICSTIS from Feb 2008, like 09 numbers, unfortunately under current ICSTIS proposals there will be no limit on the length of the call queue like proper 09 numbers and it seems obvious the businesses who run these numbers hope that the consumer will be utterly confused and still imagine that an 0871 number costs the same as an 01/02 number, because 0871 is almost the same code as 0870.  To stop this happening I would urge your program to suggest that your listeners respond to the current ICSTIS consultation on 0871 numbers open for comments until 28th June (see www.icstis.org.uk/news/consultation_papers/2007CondocOpen.asp) demanding that call queuing over 15 seconds is banned on 0871 numbers and also demanding that 0871 numbers have to move to an 09 number in due course.  I would urge them to also send a copy of any communication they send to ICSTIS to their MP using www.writetothem.com as the only people ICSTIS and Ofcom are ultimately accountable to for their actions are Parliament. Over 2 years ago the then Ofcom Communications Director, Matt Peacock, gave a clear cut statement on your own program that all companies would be made to publish an alternative to their 084 and 087 numbers by Ofcom but despite over 43,000 people (see http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/saynoto0870/) having recently signed a petition on the 10 Downing Street website demanding that just this should happen nothing has been done by Ofcom or the government to enforce this.  And what of Matt Peacock himself and his former extremely well paid Ofcom bosses and board directors Stephen Carter, Ed Richards and Sean Williams.  Well conveniently enough after only 2 to 3 years of working at Ofcom they have all left it for even better paid jobs with other large organisations.  So were they really ever committed to helping further the best interests of UK telecoms consumers or only in fact committed to the maximum success of their own personal careers? One wonders how Ofcom can ever be brought to account for the woolly thinking and poor or even cynical decision making processes that led to the changes Ofcom now proposes on 084/7 numbers from next February and which will continue to allow phone customers to still not understand what they are paying for each phone call they make and whether or not they will be paying a Premium Rate to call.  Also most disgracefully under Ofcom's new rules the 0845 numbers formerly sold to people like charities and local police forces and councils will continue to be charged as Premium Rate, whilst more formerly more expensive 0870 numbers will not. Surely heads should roll at Ofcom over this failure of their primary duty under the Communications Act 2003 to protect the best interests of the UK citizen consumer and to also properly enforce the requirements of the EU Misleading Advertising directive by stopping organisations still even now repeatedly misleadingly consumers that calling 0845 numbers is according to them "Lo-Call" and 0870 numbers are "National Rate" in things like police and local council information leaflets that are not bound by the rules of the Advertising Standards Authority.  However unfortunately I expect Ofcom's mainly former telecoms industry senior executives will instead merely award themselves another round of pay rises, promotions and an even bigger set of annual bonuses and try to avoid any awkward questions on this issue.

Regards,

A little later I also sent this email just to reinforce the point.

By the way this revealed that Colette Bowe is no longer Chairman of the Ofcom Consumer Panel as it now bounces back as the email address not existing.

Perhaps another case of the rats deserting the sinking ship before the you know what hits the fan. ;) ::)


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-----Original Message----- Sent: 07 June 2007 18:37 To: bob.tolliday@which.co.uk Cc: youandyours.co.uk@bbc.co.uk; robert.pickard@which.co.uk; winifred.robinson@bbc.co.uk; liz.barclay@bbc.co.uk; katy.johnson@bbc.co.uk; katy.johnston@bbc.co.uk; colette.bowe@ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk; bob.twitchin@ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk; ed.richards@ofcom.org.uk; steve.roberts@ofcom.org.uk; julian.eccles@ofcom.org.uk; claudio.pollack@ofcom.org.uk; steve.unger@ofcom.org.uk; gareth.davies@ofcom.org.uk; tessa.jowell@culture.gov.uk; ChristopherG@asa.org.uk; GuyP@asa.org.uk; RogerW@asa.org.uk; marc.michaels@coi.gsi.gov.uk; robert.irons@coi.gsi.gov.uk; david.currie@ofcom.org.uk; philip.graf@ofcom.org.uk; stephanie.liston@ofcom.org.uk; sara.nathan@ofcom.org.uk; ian.hargreaves@ofcom.org.uk; millie.banerjee@ofcom.org.uk; penny.boys@oft.gov.uk; vincent.smith@oft.gov.uk; jonathan.may@oft.gov.uk; john.fingleton@oft.gov.uk; ian.livingston@bt.com Subject: Seeing The Light After Previous 084/7 Number Use & Link to Matt Peacock Interview Dear Mr Tolliday, Further to my previous email it is certainly pleasing to see that Which's very belated conversion to opposition to 0870 numbers is not mere rhetoric but has been backed up with firm action and with the Contact Us section on www.which.co.uk and the directory listings for Which at www.192.com and www.118118.co.uk now only showing 01/02 contact numbers. The only thing that gives the game away as to the past in respect of Which's use of 084/7 numbers are some listings on the www.saynoto0870.com website.  These show- Which? (Consumers Association)  0845 3074000 = 01992 822800  Switchboard  Free Guides & Subscriptions: 0800 573574 Which? (Consumers Association)  0845 3010010 = 01992 822882 0800 252100 Online Customer services Which? (Consumers Association)  0845 3074000 = 01992 822828  Legal Services direct; (0845 is switchboard) This tells us what I knew to be the case.  Namely that Which was formerly using 0845 numbers and before that for several years was using 0870 numbers.  And more than that back in those days its Chief Executive, Peter Vicary-Smith, was sufficiently arrogant about the matter that he simply did not bother to reply to any communications complaining about the use of these numbers. Also interesting was when I called Which today to get your email address and on querying why you used to use 0845 numbers was immediately told that "Which didn't make any money out of them".  Now of course I know that not to be true since any organisation which takes a service like a new switchboard or automatic call forwarding elsewhere out of hours always gets those services cheaper if they agree to use an 0845 or 0870 number than if they maintain their geographic 01/02 number.  So to my mind those lower charges are in fact a payment by your callers to subsidise your contract price with your telecoms supplier and I suspect asking Which to provide information about what commercial negotiations it has had to do with its telecoms supplier in order to provide all 01/02 numbers would be particularly instructive.  So while Which's new found conversions to 020 numbers is most welcome I think your organisation must be recognised as the sinner that has repented that it actually is, rather than a true longstanding exponent of the anti 084/7 cause. Coming back to former Ofcom Communication Director Matt Peacock's previous interview I think it might be instructive for you and others to listen to those comments and to see how far short Ofcom has still fallen short of the commitments that Matt made at that time.   Now I am quite sure Matt's comments were undoubtedly made in the best of faith and also before he became aware of the more sinister forces at work at Ofcom at places like its cosy industry meetings with the main 084/7 number vending merchants.  The tone of these meetings can be easily judged by reading the minutes of the various meetings of the Ofcom NTS Focus Group, now chaired by one of the leading protagonists of 084/7 numbers, at www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/groups/nts_focus/ Matt's previous commitments in respect of changes Ofcom would make in 084/7 number use and alternatives can be listened to at:- rtsp://rmv8.bbc.net.uk/radio4/youandyours/youandyours_20041108.ra?start="00:01:42.0"&end="00:10:09.0" However thank you once again for your efforts in getting Which on to the straight and narrow on a matter on which it previously only had a distinctly commercial rather than a consumer centric agenda. Regards,

And then this correction:-


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-----Original Message----- Sent: 07 June 2007 18:41 To: bob.tolliday@which.co.uk Subject: Matt Peacock You & Yours Interview Link - Correction Apologies but my previous link to this You and Yours interview didn't work. The actual interview given on 8th November 2004 can be heard at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/youandyours_20041108_1.ram

Hi NGM,
You said in the first post:  
 “It seems that the commitment of some of you on this site (along even with me) has been flagging in the face of the apparently insuperable forces of commercial deviousness against which we are battling.”

Your email shows that you are far from flagging.  Keep going.  As usual, you are doing a splendid job.

Quote:

Your email shows that you are far from flagging.  Keep going.  As usual, you are doing a splendid job.

......which I wholeheartedly endorse.

Thanks for the above.

However Dave or bbb ideally ought to be able to somehow capture the Which interview audio stream (as the BBC now sadly remove You & Yours programs after 7 days from their site) for the You & Yours program and/or do a transcipt of it and get it up on the list of useful links etc.

I'm pleased to see the minutes of a certain Mole Valley District Council meeting have now been added to the list of useful links and references. ;)

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 8^th, 2007 at 8:08am:

However Dave or bbb ideally ought to be able to somehow capture the Which interview audio stream (as the BBC now sadly remove You & Yours programs after 7 days from their site) for the You & Yours program and/or do a transcipt of it and get it up on the list of useful links etc.

NGMsGhost, I think you will find that the BBC keep the audio files on there just like they always have done. We know that the interview from 2004 is still there. They have changed the URL format since then, but if you bookmark the URL, then it should work.

Webpage on programme is here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/01/2007_23_thu.shtml

Audio is here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/2007_23_thu_01.ram

If you modify the URL, it will show the programme for that day. 2007 is obviously the year, with the next number, 23, the week number.

I've added this to Useful Links & References.

Just come across this leaflet which was published in June 2007 and which makes mention of Say no to 0870.