A work colleague called her credit card using the geographical number shown on the SAYNOTO0870 website.

She was horrified (as was I) to see her phone bill record the call as one to an 0870 number with the cost to match.

She called her phone company and they said that the geographical number was simply an access number for the 0870 number.  They also said that these numbers could be identified from Google.

This is outrageous.  And where can we find these numbers?

As far as I'm aware, the only case where this happens is with certain "geographic alternatives" to BT dial up numbers. Except for those, I thought this was not allowed at all, otherwise it would corrupt the whole telephone system. Do you know what the alternative number was that your colleague rang?

This would go against the whole point of price transparancy.  I know it's hard, but at least you are supposed to be able to tell the cost of the call from the number. (I use the Magenta Systems Code Lookup page myself..)

Using the quoted telco logic, what's to stop anybody setting up a £1.50/min number as an alternate geographic number, and being charged that instead of getting it free?

We definitely need to know the numbers involved here, and a scan of the relevant part of the phone bill (omitting any personal details!) would be of help too.

There are some sly unexplained and unpublicized issues occurring now, so this is probably what is happening as reported here. My wife purchased a calling card for overseas calls at cheaper rates. This was a pre-paid card where you called an access 0800 number, and as you used up the credit on the card it kept a tally of your diminishing credit.

When she made a series of foreign calls, using this 0800 number, the credit on the card did not reduce and she was puzzled. When I then received our telephone bill it became apparent what had been happening. All of the foreign calls had been charged to our telephone number directly despite the fact that she had dialled a 0800 number from our telephone. I queried this on my bill and the teleco (Primus) could not or would not give me an explanation. They claimed the calls had been dialled on our number directly, but we knew this was not so since my wife had dialled an 0800 number for each of these calls. So somehow there is a device which is now sometimes clandestinely arranged to detect when an 0800 number is dialled to make calls, and to circumvent that, then dialling the number direct from the line via the telco. Either they are detecting the particular 0800 number (like some mobile operators were doing with specific changing 0800 numbers), or they are detecting what is dialled afterwards, and if it is a complete telephone number they switch it to be dialled direct through them! In the 0870 number case, I presume they are doing a similar thing, but detecting that the routing is to the same connection as the 0870 number, and then charging it as if the 0870 number had been dialled.

As I say, my telco would not admit to this fraudulent practice, but we are not using these calling cards any more. It seems that my telco is only doing it with 0800 numbers dialled, not with codes for 1899 etc. They still work OK. They do not have any right in our contract agreement to do this, since we do not have an integral contract including line rental, but still use BT.

So it is clear that there are new tricks and scams now emerging all of the time. I think that because Ofcom have shown and proven their total disinterest in regulating as they are supposed to do, telcos now feel (understandably) that they can now get away with any new scam, even if in reality it is illegal and fraudulent! The problem reported here when actually dialling a Geo number is a similar example of what is now going on. Soon there will be no relationship between the number you dial and the charge rate, since as usual Ofcom do nothing to halt these abuses, nor to punish the perpetrators. This seems to be the hidden and deceitful objective of Ofcom in all of these abuses, which increasingly are now becoming totally fraudulent and criminal. If the policeman is asleep the criminals will have a paradise of anarchy in which to perpetrate their crimes. That is what we have in the UK.

I think you need to name or give us a clue as to the identity of the offending company so that we all may avoid the situation.

I think we have a case of lack of information here.

First of all, as jgxenite & avnm say, we need the whole story, ie. the numbers that were involved. That way we can investigate fully.


jgxenite wrote on Nov 29^th, 2007 at 2:20pm:

As far as I'm aware, the only case where this happens is with certain "geographic alternatives" to BT dial up numbers. . .

Contrary to info I found when researching Dial up internet numbers, I was told that BT will charge you the appropriate amount the call would have cost using 0845. However I call these numbers ALL the time and have NEVER had this happen before.

To the best of my knowledge (& experience) and after talking to BT & Pipex, they DO NOT charge you the same (as the NGN), put the NGN number on the bill, or anything similar.

The NGN is linked to the Geographic number, NOT the other way round so you can have numerous NGNs linked to the same number (eg. a Switchboard).

I'd be interested in that number you used (& the NGN) so let us know ASAP.

Apologies for the radio silence.

I have been advised that the call was made to Fraser Card Customer Services and that the geographical number featured in the website was 0113 280 7080.  (The 0870 number was 0870 1242413.)

Incidentally, no-one here has been able to locate on Google (or anywhere else) the list of such access numbers.

I suspect that the person at the mobile operator was actually thinking of the SAYNOTO0870 website and simply got the wrong end of the stick.

DaveM wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2007 at 2:19pm:

jgxenite wrote on Nov 29th, 2007 at 2:20pm: As far as I'm aware, the only case where this happens is with certain "geographic alternatives" to BT dial up numbers. . .   Contrary to info I found when researching Dial up internet numbers, I was told that BT will charge you the appropriate amount the call would have cost using 0845. However I call these numbers ALL the time and have NEVER had this happen before. To the best of my knowledge (& experience) and after talking to BT & Pipex, they DO NOT charge you the same (as the NGN), put the NGN number on the bill, or anything similar.

If you look up the price list for, eg, BT Together Option 2 you will see that e.g. evening calls are 0.00p/min for "Geographic Inland Direct Dialled PPM Prices (except calls terminating on Internet Service Providers)calls" (Table 1a)

Table 1b, "Prices of calls to the Channel Islands and calls to Internet Service Providers using geographic numbers" shows calls are 1.70/2.00p/min (exc/inc vat).  Compared to 0.425/0.500p/min (exc/inc vat) for "Local NTS" i.e. 0845.

It states specifically "Calls to identified Internet Service Providers using geographic numbers will be charged at the rates shown in Table 1b. A list of these numbers is available on bt.com."  I've not found this list yet this evening. (I have seen in in the past, prior to the last redesign.)

irrelevant wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2007 at 11:22pm:

It states specifically "Calls to identified Internet Service Providers using geographic numbers will be charged at the rates shown in Table 1b. A list of these numbers is available on bt.com."  I've not found this list yet this evening. (I have seen in in the past, prior to the last redesign.)

You can check numbers here:

http://www.numbereligibility.bt.com/